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Ozreth
2010-01-15, 12:52 AM
Heya! Newer 4e player here and I'm not really grasping multi-classing. Can somebody give me the rundown? Trying to make a level 1 Bard/Rogue.

Thank you! :)

Gralamin
2010-01-15, 12:57 AM
Heya! Newer 4e player here and I'm not really grasping multi-classing. Can somebody give me the rundown? Trying to make a level 1 Bard/Rogue.

Thank you! :)

Basic version:
You take a multiclass feat, it gives the benefits listed. You need to take one of the power swap feats in order to gain powers from the other class. Once you've taken a multiclass feat, you can only take multiclass feats from that class (Unless you are a bard). You qualify for all feats and paragon paths that require that class, but not epic destinies by RAW (Though it is certainly intended).

Ozreth
2010-01-15, 01:08 AM
Basic version:
You take a multiclass feat, it gives the benefits listed. You need to take one of the power swap feats in order to gain powers from the other class. Once you've taken a multiclass feat, you can only take multiclass feats from that class (Unless you are a bard). You qualify for all feats and paragon paths that require that class, but not epic destinies by RAW (Though it is certainly intended).

How does the Bard differ?

Also, do I not gain any class stats? Just powers? I wanted to be Bard/Rogue to play a Bard in an entertaining group of thieves, therefore I wanted my character to have some roguish qualities/skills/proficiences etc.

Edge of Dreams
2010-01-15, 01:12 AM
Bard can multiclass into as many classes as he wants, but still requires the feat for each one as usual.

Kylarra
2010-01-15, 01:33 AM
Multiclass feats usually provide skill training + minor extra power of some sort.

Ozreth
2010-01-15, 01:36 AM
Multiclass feats usually provide skill training + minor extra power of some sort.

Gotcha. Thanks guys : )

So I really cant start learning powers of the other class until level 4? Except for the first one.

Gralamin
2010-01-15, 01:48 AM
Gotcha. Thanks guys : )

So I really cant start learning powers of the other class until level 4? Except for the first one.

Pretty much. For example, if you take sneak of shadows:

Sneak of Shadows [Multiclass Rogue]
Prerequisite: Dex 13
Benefit: You gain training in the Thievery skill.
Once per encounter, you can use the rogue’s Sneak Attack class feature.
You don't gain any powers, but you do get Thievery and Sneak Attack once per encounter.
However, if you take Novice power later.

Novice Power [Multiclass]
Prerequisite: Any class-specific multiclass feat, 4th level
Benefit: You can swap one encounter power you know for one encounter power of the same level or lower from the class you multiclassed into.
Note: If you have no encounter attack powers, this feat grants no benefit to you.
You can now swap out one of your encounter powers for a rogue's encounter powers.

Ozreth
2010-01-15, 02:17 AM
Perfect! This seems like a good system. Thank you all for being so helpful!

Swordgleam
2010-01-15, 02:23 AM
By the way, half-elves get a free power from another class as an at-will. So you might want to consider that for the extra multiclass power, especially since half-elves don't make half bad rogues or bards.

There's also paragon multiclassing - instead of choosing a paragon path, you get more multiclass powers without having to spend the feats. Half-elves have a feat which lets them be better at that, too. Just something to consider for the future.

Ozreth
2010-01-15, 03:29 AM
Thanks for that info, def gonna consider being half elf.

But I am starting to realize that other than being able to sneak attack early on my Bard/Rogue wont seem very roguish outside of battle, which is what I care about the most. I was going to train in thievery even if was just a Bard. So maybe I should just play a full bard, no reason he cant still be part of a traveling band of entertaining thieves...

Reluctance
2010-01-15, 03:51 AM
By the way, half-elves get a free power from another class as an at-will. So you might want to consider that for the extra multiclass power, especially since half-elves don't make half bad rogues or bards.

Actually, half-elves get to use another class's at-will as an encounter power. They need a paragon feat to turn it into another at-will, although said feat is pretty much a no-brainer.

And since you mentioned paragon multiclassing, it's generally considered subpar. At the very least, a proper paragon path gives you bonus powers in addition to certain bennies for leveling. Paragon multiclassing only gives you the powers.


But I am starting to realize that other than being able to sneak attack early on my Bard/Rogue wont seem very roguish outside of battle, which is what I care about the most. I was going to train in thievery even if was just a Bard. So maybe I should just play a full bard, no reason he cant still be part of a traveling band of entertaining thieves...

You can be a thief even without the Rogue class. Just pick appropriate skills. Thievery and Stealth are obvious, with social skills being good if you're more of a con artist than a cutpurse.

Break
2010-01-15, 03:51 AM
Basic version:
You take a multiclass feat, it gives the benefits listed. You need to take one of the power swap feats in order to gain powers from the other class. Once you've taken a multiclass feat, you can only take multiclass feats from that class (Unless you are a bard). You qualify for all feats and paragon paths that require that class, but not epic destinies by RAW (Though it is certainly intended).

The RAI is now RAW ever since PHBII, page 197 on multiclassing feats:


If you take a class-specific multiclass feat, you count as a member of that clas for the purpose of meeting prerequisites, including prerequisites for feats, paragon paths, epic destinies, and rituals.

Kurald Galain
2010-01-15, 03:51 AM
How does the Bard differ?

Also, do I not gain any class stats? Just powers?
Bards can take as many multiclass feats as they want.
Characters from Windrise Ports can take two, plus the power swap feats.
Other characters can take only one, plus the power swap feats.

You do not gain class abilities, only a handful of powers. On the other hand, the PHB3 and Dragon magazine offer hybrid classes, which do give you some class abilities from both classes, albeit with restrictions. For instance, a bard|rogue hybrid would be able to heal as a bard, but only once per encounter, and can sneak attack as a rogue, but only with rogue powers.


I wanted to be Bard/Rogue to play a Bard in an entertaining group of thieves, therefore I wanted my character to have some roguish qualities/skills/proficiences etc.
If that's what you want, then you actually don't need to multiclass: the bard itself has plenty of rogue qualities and proficiencies.

Multiclassing works very differently from in earlier editions, to it really depends on what you want with your character. Often, where in 3E an archetype would match to e.g. a fighter/rogue multiclass, in 4E it instead fits best with a wholly different class, such as ranger. Don't start with the assumption that you want to multiclass: start with the assumption of what your character wants to be able to do.

Ozreth
2010-01-15, 04:23 AM
I basically want to be a bard that is good at thievery and stealth...so I might as well just roll a Bard. I just thought that giving him the rogue archetype would bring the character more to life outside of battle...although maybe having some rogue abilities during fights woudl be cool too....

Kurald Galain
2010-01-15, 04:28 AM
II just thought that giving him the rogue archetype would bring the character more to life outside of battle...
Bards are actually better outside battle than rogues are, and it is easy to get stealth and thievery skills on a bard.


although maybe having some rogue abilities during fights woudl be cool too....
That depends. The rogue is a striker: he focuses on taking enemies down with large amounts of damage. The bard is a leader: he focuses on moving people around, healing his allies, and some debuffs. If you try to be a striker and a leader at the same time, you'll most likely end up being mediocre at both.

(rogue multiclass lets you do a bit more damage once per encounter, which is not exactly impressive on a bard; on the other hand, playing a rogue with bard multiclass lets you do a lot of damage and heal once per encounter)

Ozreth
2010-01-15, 04:31 AM
Bards are actually better outside battle than rogues are, and it is easy to get stealth and thievery skills on a bard.


That depends. The rogue is a striker: he focuses on taking enemies down with large amounts of damage. The bard is a leader: he focuses on moving people around, healing his allies, and some debuffs. If you try to be a striker and a leader at the same time, you'll most likely end up being mediocre at both.

(rogue multiclass lets you do a bit more damage once per encounter, which is not exactly impressive on a bard; on the other hand, playing a rogue with bard multiclass lets you do a lot of damage and heal once per encounter)

Its settled then! Im just going to be a bard, but i am glad that I know understand multi-classing thanks to you folk : )

Katana_Geldar
2010-01-15, 04:37 AM
Half-Elf and bard work so well together, particularly if you take Bardic Knowledge, then you're pretty much the skill roll person. But Bards do tend to operate well in the back row, helping people out with buffs and heals and pulling enemies off their allies. Depends how you want to play too, as bards are more role players.

Just look carefully for your dillenante power, mine has high Charisma so I took Blazing Starfall a Sorcerer's encounter.

Why did they change so much with Multi-classing anyway? It's probably rhe only thing I don't like about 4e.

NeoVid
2010-01-15, 04:50 AM
Why did they change so much with Multi-classing anyway? It's probably rhe only thing I don't like about 4e.

Multiclassing is now predictable enough that it's possible to figure out just about anything people can do with it before it gets in the hands of the players, and so it can be kept pretty balanced.

Sir Homeslice
2010-01-15, 05:08 AM
Why did they change so much with Multi-classing anyway? It's probably rhe only thing I don't like about 4e.

Because multiclassing before was ridiculous.

Katana_Geldar
2010-01-15, 05:09 AM
They played it straight with SW Saga, it just makes me wonder...

Sir Homeslice
2010-01-15, 05:16 AM
They played it straight with SW Saga, it just makes me wonder...

Now there's a good system. Too bad the game I played in kind of died abruptly.

Shardan
2010-01-15, 05:32 AM
There is also the Hybrid option. if you focus on the hand crossbow or shuriken it might work or going hand-to-hand bard. but you really are much better off with going bard and just going for the skills...

I'm still trying to figure out what I think about hybrid..

lord_khaine
2010-01-15, 05:38 AM
Because multiclassing before was ridiculous.

And it was Fun as well, dont know the right words to describe the current system.

NeoVid
2010-01-15, 05:46 AM
And it was Fun as well, dont know the right words to describe the current system.

"Limited but mechanically sound" is how I describe it. Though that description applies to a lot in 4e.

Lost Demiurge
2010-01-15, 09:46 AM
Why did they change so much with Multi-classing anyway? It's probably rhe only thing I don't like about 4e.

Balance and niche protection. 4E's focus is on being a fun team game, and if another character can overlap a couple of niches and perform 2 or more of them better than another character who's solely devoted to his particular niche, it doesn't work so hot.

Kurald Galain
2010-01-15, 10:05 AM
Balance and niche protection. 4E's focus is on being a fun team game, and if another character can overlap a couple of niches and perform 2 or more of them better than another character who's solely devoted to his particular niche, it doesn't work so hot.
While certain classes can potentially overshadow the role of others in certain earlier editions, that issue is completely unrelated to multiclassing.

Besides, nearly every RPG is about being a fun team game.

nightwyrm
2010-01-15, 12:05 PM
"Limited but mechanically sound" is how I describe it. Though that description applies to a lot in 4e.

I think that's the perfect description. Multiclassing in 3.x was a mixed bag. Unless you know what you're doing, you're pretty likely to create a useless character. Just try to make a caster/fighter in 3e without using one of the gish PrCs. Or maybe some newcomer comes along and thinks a bard2/ftr2/rog2 is a useful lv6 character.

Evard
2010-01-15, 12:34 PM
In 4e multiclassing is like being a college student and majoring in science but taking a few art classes here and there.
You are still a science major but you know a little bit about art. You never stop being a science major but in order to learn more about art you have to take art classes that take up time that you may otherwise have taken another science class.
You never become a art major but you dabble in it and could probably know a great deal of history about it or be able to paint/computer generate something pretty good or wonderful (depending on how good you are at art).

You take a class and that is your major and whatever you decide to multiclass in is your minor or whatever side classes you are taking. It distracts from your main course work (class) but you always gain something from it.

Indon
2010-01-15, 12:51 PM
In 4e multiclassing is like being a college student and majoring in science but taking a few art classes here and there.

So hybrids are double majors, then?

Draz74
2010-01-15, 02:24 PM
So hybrids are double majors, then?

Yep.

And paragon multiclassing is ... when the science major who likes to take art classes takes enough of them to earn an Art Minor?

... Hmmm. I hope my English Minor doesn't turn out to be useless, parallel to how paragon multiclassing is so underpowered. :smallsigh:

Shardan
2010-01-15, 03:11 PM
Agreed. Paragon multiclassing needs help... as does hybrid paragon. Hybrid is an improvement to paragon multiclassing. The powers being under-leveled aren't even the big thing.. it takes 4 feats to paragon multiclass AND you lose the level 11 and level 16 traits entirely

Devils_Advocate
2010-01-15, 05:54 PM
That analogy is particularly useful if your setting is an actual school, of course.


For me, 4e is the better system for Sigil Prep, just because the college metaphor works so well. Your class is your major. By Junior year (11th level), you really want to think about the emphasis you want to take in your major (paragon path), and at 21st, you may be thinking grad school (epic destiny). You can minor via multiclassing, and with hybrid upcoming, you can also double-major.

Evard
2010-01-15, 06:40 PM
3e multiclassing is like duel majors :p

I like the idea of 4e multiclassing but i think it just doesn't work to well in practice.

If i ever run another 4e campy i would make it wher eyou take the original multiclass feat then anytime you get a new power you can take it from your other class.

Mando Knight
2010-01-15, 06:50 PM
If i ever run another 4e campy i would make it where you take the original multiclass feat then anytime you get a new power you can take it from your other class.

Doesn't really work: by allowing free flow of powers, you allow for ridiculous combos in which a Fighter or Barbarian grabs a slew of Ranger powers and combines them with Tempest Technique or Whirling Slayer, or other combinations of powerful class features with strictly better powers.

Kylarra
2010-01-15, 06:51 PM
3e multiclassing is like duel majors :p

I like the idea of 4e multiclassing but i think it just doesn't work to well in practice.

If i ever run another 4e campy i would make it wher eyou take the original multiclass feat then anytime you get a new power you can take it from your other class.No no, 2e multiclassing is dual majors. 3e multiclassing is like playing with legos.

Evard
2010-01-15, 06:58 PM
That really wouldn't bug me much, so the fighter has some ranger powers? That wont break anything to much really, you could put a cap on it like you can choose 1 daily, enc, utility anytime later. If you take the power during heroic level they must be heroic powers and so on for paragon and epic (but you can only take 1 multiclass feat of course)

lol yeah ok legos :P

Artanis
2010-01-15, 07:16 PM
That really wouldn't bug me much, so the fighter has some ranger powers? That wont break anything to much really, you could put a cap on it like you can choose 1 daily, enc, utility anytime later. If you take the power during heroic level they must be heroic powers and so on for paragon and epic (but you can only take 1 multiclass feat of course)

...which is almost exactly like how it is anyways, with the exception of using up less feats.



And if you want multiclassing to let people take powers (more or less) freely from both classes, I suggest looking at the rules for hybrid characters.

Evard
2010-01-15, 09:43 PM
Actually hybrids made by the character generator wont let you take just any power, at certain levels you have to take a power from a specific class.


Multiclassing would let you dabble but stay your original class at core, hybriding basically makes a new class.... A ranger that multiclasses with a cleric is still a ranger but a hybrid ranger/cleric is more like a 3.5 ranger.

nightwyrm
2010-01-16, 11:44 PM
I think hybrids characters are forced to basically have more or less equal number of powers from both halves.

Shardan
2010-01-17, 02:41 AM
Not equal, but if you have more than one of each power type, you have to have at least one of each. such as one encounter power of one class, but all other encounters can be the other, likewise one daily must be class a, and one utility from class a... so class A might have one at will, one encounter, one daily, and one utility from class A and ALL other powers can be class B