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drevil
2010-01-15, 03:05 PM
How important is concentration for a cleric?
I am considering to spend my skill ranks elsewhere.

I only see one practical use of this skill.

Cleric grappled -> problem.
Cleric grappled -> Word of Recall + concentration (DC26) -> no problem.

1. Any other important advantage of concentration?
2. Any other ways for a cleric to escape a grapple?

Share your thoughts, D&D-folks!

Grumman
2010-01-15, 03:07 PM
2. Any other ways for a cleric to escape a grapple?
Beat them to death with your superhuman strength?

HCL
2010-01-15, 03:09 PM
For those occasional instances you want to cast a non-quickened spell while threatened

Milskidasith
2010-01-15, 03:09 PM
How important is concentration for a cleric?
I am considering to spend my skill ranks elsewhere.

I only see one practical use of this skill.

Cleric grappled -> problem.
Cleric grappled -> Word of Recall + concentration (DC26) -> no problem.

1. Any other important advantage of concentration?
2. Any other ways for a cleric to escape a grapple?

Share your thoughts, D&D-folks!

Concentration allows you to cast without provoking AoOs (however, unlike what many DMs think, if you fail that check you don't cast at all, you don't get to cast normally and take AoOs). It's very important.

As for being grappled: There are spells for that. Or the travel domain.

drevil
2010-01-15, 04:18 PM
My question is:
Is investing my skill ranks in Concentration worth it?
Would a cleric need this skill enough for me to max it out?

I dont imagine me using it so often.

DragoonWraith
2010-01-15, 04:28 PM
You're a full caster with 4+Int skill points per level, and no UMD or Tumble as class skills. What were you planning on putting them in?

Mongoose87
2010-01-15, 04:44 PM
You're a full caster with 4+Int skill points per level

Only for a Cloistered Cleric.

Douglas
2010-01-15, 04:49 PM
No, Cloistered Cleric gets 6. Normal Cleric gets 2.

drevil
2010-01-15, 04:59 PM
I only have 2 + INT.
If my INT is 9, I only get 1 rank per level.
What to choose? Spellcraft or concentration?

If my INT is 10, I would also like to max out Diplomacy.
My eperience is that it is very useful for a party to have a face.
And I use diplomacy very often in D&D, while concentration not so much.

What do you think?
How important is Concentration for a cleric?

Kantolin
2010-01-15, 05:01 PM
I suppose the major question is, how much do you plan on casting spells in combat?

On the other end, however, spellcraft is useful for identifying spells, pretty much period. So if you're not planning on doing much dispelling or inventing spells, it's not terribly focal to you.

Comparably, casting spells is one of the cleric's strength, so I'd prioritize concentration over most skills for one, especially if you're a frontline cleric. You'll simply be threatened quite a bit.

Devils_Advocate
2010-01-15, 05:10 PM
If you intend to keep your character out of melee, then it seems like you should be able to put a higher score in Int, since you don't need Str, Dex, and Con so much; and/or you could use the Cloistered Cleric variant. On the other hand, if you intend for your character to be able to function well in melee... then isn't Concentration sort of important?

Signmaker
2010-01-15, 05:11 PM
How important is concentration for a cleric?
I am considering to spend my skill ranks elsewhere.

I only see one practical use of this skill.

Cleric grappled -> problem.
Cleric grappled -> Word of Recall + concentration (DC26) -> no problem.

1. Any other important advantage of concentration?
2. Any other ways for a cleric to escape a grapple?

Share your thoughts, D&D-folks!

Taking continuous damage is a pain. Therefore, get enough to consistently pull of, say, a DC20.

You essentially want enough Concentration to 1. Defensively cast. 2. Cast even if attacked/taking damage while casting. 3. Cast in strange conditions (Read: Mounted, Weather, etc.)

drevil
2010-01-15, 06:06 PM
So you recommend this for a classic cleric (may enter a melee battle):

Spellcraft > Concentration > Diplomacy.

Signmaker
2010-01-15, 06:09 PM
So you recommend this for a classic cleric (may enter a melee battle):

Spellcraft > Concentration > Diplomacy.

More or less. Concentration is a big deal, but easily fixed through feats and items so that you don't have to invest too many ranks in to it.

Runestar
2010-01-15, 07:30 PM
Also consider if you will be taking any feats or prcs with skill requirements.

drevil
2010-01-16, 03:40 AM
Concentration is a big deal, but easily fixed through feats and items so that you don't have to invest too many ranks in to it.

Which feats and items can help me not spending too many ranks in Concentration?

Its a battle between:

Concentration vs Diplomacy (useful social skill)

Philistine
2010-01-16, 10:18 AM
So you recommend this for a classic cleric (may enter a melee battle):

Spellcraft > Concentration > Diplomacy.

I'd say it's Concentration >>> Diplomacy > Spellcraft. As Kantolin pointed out, Spellcraft isn't necessarily all that useful for a Cleric.

Kelb_Panthera
2010-01-16, 10:28 AM
Combat Casting, and Skill focus (concentration) can net you a +7, with a +2 con mod and 4 ranks you can cast defensively on a 2. After that it becomes less relevant unless your DM likes to have enemies using readied actions to disrupt your spellcasting. Disclaimer: these are not really great feat choices for a cleric, but if you really want to hang onto those skill points this is an option.

DragoonWraith
2010-01-16, 10:44 AM
+7 to a skill is not worth two feats. I would not get either feat unless they were required for something.

I concur that if you're not a Wizard, Spellcraft is much less important than you'd think. It allows you to identify spells - useful, but rarely is it going to improve your abilities. Concentration will.

Otodetu
2010-01-16, 12:20 PM
Go for a higher int score...
And concentration is important, when big things threaten you on high levels you will want to succeed on that one important spell to save your buddy.

Pharaoh's Fist
2010-01-16, 12:22 PM
Don't get feats to improve concentration. Get a Vest of Steady Spellcasting, +5 to concentration for 2,500 gp.

deuxhero
2010-01-16, 12:23 PM
What are you an orc? Humans get +1 skill point a level.

Demons_eye
2010-01-16, 12:28 PM
I only have 2 + INT.
If my INT is 9, I only get 1 rank per level.
What to choose? Spellcraft or concentration?

If my INT is 10, I would also like to max out Diplomacy.
My eperience is that it is very useful for a party to have a face.
And I use diplomacy very often in D&D, while concentration not so much.

What do you think?
How important is Concentration for a cleric?

Even if you have low int I don't believe you can go under the min skill points for a class. Cloistered Cleric works wonders for those without skill points, and begin human or having the human descended feat helps.

drevil
2010-01-16, 04:02 PM
It seems like concentration is quite popular.
The only time I find concentration useful, is when casting a spell when being grappled.
Are there other situations concentration may be useful?

Douglas
2010-01-16, 04:07 PM
Even if you have low int I don't believe you can go under the min skill points for a class. Cloistered Cleric works wonders for those without skill points, and begin human or having the human descended feat helps.
No, the rule is But your character always gets at least 1 skill point per level. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/theBasics.htm#intelligenceInt) The bonus point for being human is applied after that, I believe, but that's the only minimum on how many skill points you get.


The only time I find concentration useful, is when casting a spell when being grappled.
Are there other situations concentration may be useful?
Casting defensively, and casting despite a readied action to attack you.

Eldariel
2010-01-17, 02:48 AM
And casting in motion (e.g. during some quake or in heavy wind or whatever) and casting...overall, if you want your damn spells to resolve, you need Concentration.

Saph
2010-01-17, 11:26 AM
Concentration is even more important for Clerics than for Wizards and Sorcerers. If you're a healbot cleric, you'll be casting spells in melee, healing allies. If you're a smashy cleric, you'll be casting spells in melee, in between hitting enemies. And if you're any sort of spellcaster you'll be casting spells in melee whenever you fight melee monsters that are an actual threat. Then there's continuous damage, weather, entanglement, grapples . . . yeah, just max the skill already.

Zaydos
2010-01-17, 11:32 AM
I'd say for a cleric concentration is a must have. Of the other two...

Concentration >> Diplomacy > Spellcraft.

Diplomacy is good, but Concentration is more necessary. Leave Spellcraft for the wizards. Make sure you can hit 15 + highest spell level easily (I prefer a 1 or 2 which with +2 Con is gained at rather high levels, so I have a tunic of steady casting to buff it further)

Also if you're really in a cramp for skill points: Open Minded feat from XPH (or is it Complete Adventurer) which gives you 5 extra skill points. If you aren't keeping things maxed out it can be better than Skill Focus.

Doug Lampert
2010-01-17, 12:01 PM
Combat Casting, and Skill focus (concentration) can net you a +7, with a +2 con mod and 4 ranks you can cast defensively on a 2. After that it becomes less relevant unless your DM likes to have enemies using readied actions to disrupt your spellcasting. Disclaimer: these are not really great feat choices for a cleric, but if you really want to hang onto those skill points this is an option.

1) Skills don't autofail on a 1. Why in the world are you only wanting to succeed on a 2 rather than a 1?

2) Concentration DC to cast in combat is 15 + spell level. Congragulations, for two feats and 4 skill ranks you're ALMOST able to reliably cast level zero spells.

Even with both feats and a +6 Con Item with an initial Con of 14 you'll need to have 12 ranks by level 17, that's well over half the maximum (so your other skill you wanted instead will still suck for your level) and at that high a level you'll be using it for more than just avoiding AoO. Maximize the skill already, you get a better result for two fewer feats.

For the original poster:
What is your cleric planning to do? For out of combat healing + face a Bard works MUCH BETTER than a cleric. Bards are often claimed to be weak, but if your cleric isn't casting in combat what does he actually do better than a bard with a magic stick of CLW?

Without concentration you can't buff in combat and you can't heal in combat. Just what do you plan to do in combat? Cleric's big strength is self-buffing and kicking ass. But unless you're using persistent cheeze this works best if you can cast in combat.

Additionally, why are you giving your cleric high charisma so you even consider him as a possible face? Cha is a trap for clerics. The only ability you've got that depends on it is Turn Undead, which is total crap at mid level or higher (undead HD increase faster than your turning). If you're using turn attempts for other things (see persistent cheeze) then nightsticks are better than pumping Cha, if you DM doesn't allow nightstick cheeze then "extra turning" is a feat worth as much as +8 to Cha. 1 feat << 8 points in an ability.

ShippoWildheart
2010-01-17, 01:41 PM
Take Combat Casting and Shielded Casting. It eliminates attacks of opportunities when casting. That should eliminate the majority of your Concentration woes.

Sliver
2010-01-17, 02:01 PM
Take Combat Casting and Shielded Casting. It eliminates attacks of opportunities when casting. That should eliminate the majority of your Concentration woes.

Take a useless feat and a feat that invalidates the only use of the first feat for something you can do with a few skill ranks? Is that really the best use of 2 feats? You could just go with open minded, be a human or anything that grants skill points or an Int bonus, or.. Don't be a cleric..

ShippoWildheart
2010-01-17, 02:44 PM
Take a useless feat and a feat that invalidates the only use of the first feat for something you can do with a few skill ranks? Is that really the best use of 2 feats? You could just go with open minded, be a human or anything that grants skill points or an Int bonus, or.. Don't be a cleric..

With 2 measly skill points, it seemed like a good idea when I thought of it.

But I guess Cloistered Cleric works too (which will take care of the gross lack of skill points of a normal Cleric). Just always prepare Divine Power for battles, because a medium BAB already pushes it for the Cleric to be able to fight in battle.