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View Full Version : OOTS killing catgirls: another proof OOTS is not RAW



taltamir
2010-01-15, 03:28 PM
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0423.html

Hillarious strip as usual, and another proof that OOTS is not by any way shape or form RAW.

Optimystik
2010-01-15, 03:35 PM
How are custom monsters against RAW?

Kylarra
2010-01-15, 03:40 PM
Also, how is this news at all? :smallconfused:

Doc Roc
2010-01-15, 03:40 PM
You... do know there are whole books about building custom monsters?
Fnord
Right?
Fnord
Right?

Another_Poet
2010-01-15, 03:41 PM
How are custom monsters against RAW?

My thought exactly.

The strip doesn't break any rules, it just introduces a new monster which sounds to me like "Earth elemental with a template and immunity to falling damage."

Morty
2010-01-15, 03:41 PM
How did it go? "Hello and welcome to last week"? OoTS not following RAW has been obvious since Belkar sundered Elan's rapier by shouting.

taltamir
2010-01-15, 03:43 PM
1. I know its old news. doesn't mean it can't be reiterated.
2. Custom monsters are ok, using real world and modern physics isn't. In DnD world you have the philosophical elements, not the real world chemical elements.
And life is based on positive energy, not on chemistry

Doc Roc
2010-01-15, 03:51 PM
Actually, that's all setting dependent. For example, Iron Kingdoms has a number of mechanics that serve to 'proximate the mechanisms we might recognize as chemistry. Iron Heroes goes even further in some senses.

In short, " (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/WillingSuspensionOfDisbelief)It's just a comic (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MemeticMutation), (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DramaticPause) I should really just relax. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MST3KMantra)" (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SoYeah)

Daefos
2010-01-15, 04:13 PM
1. I know its old news. doesn't mean it can't be reiterated.

It does, however, mean that everyone already knows this and isn't particularly interested in hearing it again.


2. Custom monsters are ok, using real world and modern physics isn't. In DnD world you have the philosophical elements, not the real world chemical elements.

In "DnD world", you have whatever the hell your DM wants you to have. Simply because you believe knowledge of chemistry shouldn't be in a D&D-based world doesn't mean everyone else will (or should) agree.

And frankly, considering you have people who are literally twice as smart as any person who's ever existed in our world running around with the ability to stop time by thinking really hard, expecting them to have not even a rudimentary understanding of the elements is a bit ridiculous.


And life is based on positive energy, not on chemistry

And who says you can't have both?

Doc Roc
2010-01-15, 04:21 PM
And who says you can't have both?

My vague and optimistic longing for a freaking playable gameworld?

Yuki Akuma
2010-01-15, 04:22 PM
Who says D&D worlds don't run on proper chemistry and physics when magic isn't involved? Just because no one's bothered to figure it out yet doesn't mean there aren't any physical laws to discover.

taltamir
2010-01-15, 04:25 PM
And frankly, considering you have people who are literally twice as smart as any person who's ever existed in our world running around with the ability to stop time by thinking really hard, expecting them to have not even a rudimentary understanding of the elements is a bit ridiculous.

that is kinda the point, they are this smart, they have scrying spells, etc... for DnD world to exist as is instead of becoming pure magitec magic must somehow oppose science (as ludicrous as it sounds; since if magic A is magic A then magic is science).

golentan
2010-01-15, 04:32 PM
Actually, that's all setting dependent. For example, Iron Kingdoms has a number of mechanics that serve to 'proximate the mechanisms we might recognize as chemistry. Iron Heroes goes even further in some senses.

In short, " (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/WillingSuspensionOfDisbelief)It's just a comic (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MemeticMutation), (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DramaticPause) I should really just relax. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MST3KMantra)" (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SoYeah)

Damn you, good sir. I just lost an hour. An hour.

I don't even remember how I wound up on Metroid.

Daefos
2010-01-15, 04:34 PM
that is kinda the point, they are this smart, they have scrying spells, etc... for DnD world to exist as is instead of becoming pure magitec magic must somehow oppose science (as ludicrous as it sounds; since if magic A is magic A then magic is science).

And what if my world is magitek? Have I broken RAW? What is it about having both knowledge of elements (and only the elements, mind you. You're the one trying to bring science as a whole into this) and magic that you find so offensive?

Your entire argument is based around Redcloak having knowledge that the rules don't say he can't have, and using that knowledge to summon a monster that no rule says is impossible. That's not breaking RAW, because there are no rules in this situation to break.

taltamir
2010-01-15, 04:35 PM
Damn you, good sir. I just lost an hour. An hour.

I don't even remember how I wound up on Metroid.

you got out after only 1 hour?

Doc Roc
2010-01-15, 05:13 PM
Your entire argument is based around Redcloak having knowledge that the rules don't say he can't have, and using that knowledge to summon a monster that no rule says is impossible. That's not breaking RAW, because there are no rules in this situation to break.

Actually, it'd require a different planar cosmology and a few other things. Stuff we know OotS has. It's just another gentle indication that really, by Buddha's Christing Heavenbreaker, this isn't a comic about D&D, this is a comic that has D&D in it.

Devils_Advocate
2010-01-15, 07:27 PM
Who says D&D worlds don't run on proper chemistry and physics when magic isn't involved?
I say that D&D doesn't follow the real world's laws of physics. Because that makes no sense. It has physics and chemistry of its own, obviously, and they are indeed "proper" in the sense that they're appropriate to the world that they occur in. It's just that in this case, that world contains giant spiders and huge flying dragons, planes of existence containing the four classical elements, life energy and death energy, and so on. Our world's natural laws clearly aren't remotely proper in D&D.

Obviously, a D&D setting's natural laws would have to be different because they would have to support magic. That they should cause all other phenomena to behave exactly the same as in our universe would be remarkably contrived in addition to being contrary to the available evidence.

taltamir
2010-01-15, 07:29 PM
I say that D&D doesn't follow the real world's laws of physics. Because that makes no sense. It has physics and chemistry of its own, obviously, and they are indeed "proper" in the sense that they're appropriate to the world that they occur in. It's just that in this case, that world contains giant spiders and huge flying dragons, planes of existence containing the four classical elements, life energy and death energy, and so on. Our world's natural laws clearly aren't remotely proper in D&D.

I too say that... to be specific, the devil is in the details. For example, look up the purpose and operation of a circulatory system and you would see that giant insects are impossible, and enlarging any being should result in their death.


Obviously, a D&D setting's natural laws would have to be different because they would have to support magic. That they should cause all other phenomena to behave exactly the same as in our universe would be remarkably contrived in addition to being contrary to the available evidence.

that too

Starbuck_II
2010-01-15, 07:35 PM
My thought exactly.

The strip doesn't break any rules, it just introduces a new monster which sounds to me like "Earth elemental with a template and immunity to falling damage."

Immunity to falling damage? That is a pretty poweerful template. I'd say LA +2-3 at least (CR +3-4).



For example, look up the purpose and operation of a circulatory system and you would see that giant insects are impossible, and enlarging any being should result in their death.

What: Rewriting a creatures circulatory system is hard for magic?

Optimystik
2010-01-15, 07:37 PM
I too say that... to be specific, the devil is in the details. For example, look up the purpose and operation of a circulatory system and you would see that giant insects are impossible, and enlarging any being should result in their death.

...Unless a wizard (or cleric) did it.

Next!

taltamir
2010-01-15, 07:42 PM
...Unless a wizard (or cleric) did it.

Next!

enlarging them isn't the problem... rates of gas diffusion is. as well as a ton of other mechanical/chemical issues.
Basically, dispel magic/AMF should KILL the vast majority of creatures in DnD. the fact that dragons can fly in an AMF (wing to weight ratio broken), breath fire in an AMF (do I really need to explain?) and that giant spiders don't just die in an AMF (exoskeleton/muscle issues, gas diffusion issues, a plethora of other issues) all necessitate that the laws of physics as we know them don't exist in DnD...

Actually, by definition, Ex abilities are NOT magical and DO break the laws of physics. (and a lot of the issues here have nothing to do with Ex abilities; but with "normal" abilities that the authors did not think about)

Optimystik
2010-01-15, 08:06 PM
enlarging them isn't the problem... rates of gas diffusion is. as well as a ton of other mechanical/chemical issues.
Basically, dispel magic/AMF should KILL the vast majority of creatures in DnD. the fact that dragons can fly in an AMF (wing to weight ratio broken), breath fire in an AMF (do I really need to explain?) and that giant spiders don't just die in an AMF (exoskeleton/muscle issues, gas diffusion issues, a plethora of other issues) all necessitate that the laws of physics as we know them don't exist in DnD...

Actually, by definition, Ex abilities are NOT magical and DO break the laws of physics. (and a lot of the issues here have nothing to do with Ex abilities; but with "normal" abilities that the authors did not think about)

Assertion Twelve (http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2009/11/2/)

Sstoopidtallkid
2010-01-15, 08:09 PM
enlarging them isn't the problem... rates of gas diffusion is. as well as a ton of other mechanical/chemical issues.
Basically, dispel magic/AMF should KILL the vast majority of creatures in DnD. the fact that dragons can fly in an AMF (wing to weight ratio broken), breath fire in an AMF (do I really need to explain?) and that giant spiders don't just die in an AMF (exoskeleton/muscle issues, gas diffusion issues, a plethora of other issues) all necessitate that the laws of physics as we know them don't exist in DnD...Breathing fire is actually not that hard to do non-magically. Ever lit a fart? Same principle, you just need a spark. Not hard to create one of those in a dragon's mouth. The giant spiders may be only visually similar to earth spiders, but with an internal skeleton(or both internal and external), with a more traditional set of lungs etc.

taltamir
2010-01-15, 08:10 PM
Assertion Twelve (http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2009/11/2/)

uh huh... the thing is, we are talking about physics not magic. We are talking about cases where explicitly no magic at all is involved.

The exact claim I am arguing against is that "when magic is not involved; physics is the same"
No, no it is not. And you can not counter that with "magic" or a wizard did it because magic is explicitly not involved.

taltamir
2010-01-15, 08:15 PM
Breathing fire is actually not that hard to do non-magically. Ever lit a fart?
As a 60 foot 90 degree cone every 6 to 24 seconds unlimited times per day?


The giant spiders may be only visually similar to earth spiders, but with an internal skeleton(or both internal and external), with a more traditional set of lungs etc.
it is a possibility, but then:
1. why call them spiders...
2. if they are visually similar to spiders it requires a variety of specific traits, traits that are useful for small creatures due to the effects of gravity, air friction, water tension, terminal velocity (air friction + gravity + mass + shape) chemical composition of silk, etc etc etc etc...
Having those traits shoe-horned into an internal organ system of a viable creature of the new size will make then pathetically designed.
They will be hunted to extinction by wild animals within a year of a god/wizard/cleric creating them.

All I am saying is "their physics are different; it is just a game so it is ok for physics to be different... things are named based on their earth analogues, but they are not truly the same; its just a game".

ocdscale
2010-01-15, 08:20 PM
The exact claim I am arguing against is that "when magic is not involved; physics is the same"
No, no it is not. And you can not counter that with "magic" or a wizard did it because magic is explicitly not involved.

I thought this was a given? See: Commoner Rail(way) or any other physical obscenities created by RAW.

But that doesn't mean everything is different. Does oxygen exist in D&D, or is it merely "air"? Are there atoms in D&D? We don't know how much is the same and how much is different.

Androgeus
2010-01-15, 08:20 PM
I know we've move on slightly from the orignal argument, but after a quick look to find information that specifically states that the chemical elements do not exsit and didn't find anything. While the greek elements do seem to be in use, I don't see how this invalidates the chemical elements.

edit: note to self: finish sentances

Sstoopidtallkid
2010-01-15, 08:25 PM
As a 60 foot 90 degree cone every 6 to 24 seconds unlimited times per day?Maybe there's a Taco Bell chain in Faerun. How many burritos can a gargantuan hexaped flier eat? Especially since he's designed specifically for it. May not be methane-based, either, could be chemical.
it is a possibility, but then:
1. why call them spiders...
2. if they are visually similar to spiders it requires a variety of specific traits, traits that are useful for small creatures due to the effects of gravity, air friction, water tension, terminal velocity (air friction + gravity + mass + shape) chemical composition of silk, etc etc etc etc...
Having those traits shoe-horned into an internal organ system of a viable creature of the new size will make then pathetically designed.
They will be hunted to extinction by wild animals within a year of a god/wizard/cleric creating them.Lolth made them so her Drow would have something to ride. They have 8 legs, a large body, small head, fur, 8 eyes, and can spray sticky rope. Their internals can be completely different from the normal ones since Lolth made them, as long as the bodies look more-or-less the same.

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-01-15, 08:25 PM
As a 60 foot 90 degree cone every 6 to 24 seconds unlimited times per day? There was a movie which explained this. Basically, they have two glands which secrete a substance which, when mixed, produces a violently exothermic reaction. Thus the 'breath of flame' is merely an efficent set of muscles which spray these substances out in a cone spray, which then ignites as the two materials are mixed.



it is a possibility, but then:
1. why call them spiders...
2. if they are visually similar to spiders it requires a variety of specific traits, traits that are useful for small creatures due to the effects of gravity, air friction, water tension, terminal velocity (air friction + gravity + mass + shape) chemical composition of silk, etc etc etc etc...
Having those traits shoe-horned into an internal organ system of a viable creature of the new size will make then pathetically designed.
They will be hunted to extinction by wild animals within a year of a god/wizard/cleric creating them.

All I am saying is "their physics are different; it is just a game so it is ok for physics to be different... things are named based on their earth analogues, but they are not truly the same; its just a game".

Here's a more interesting question... why bother bringing physics into a game in the first place?

Optimystik
2010-01-15, 08:31 PM
uh huh... the thing is, we are talking about physics not magic. We are talking about cases where explicitly no magic at all is involved.

The exact claim I am arguing against is that "when magic is not involved; physics is the same"
No, no it is not. And you can not counter that with "magic" or a wizard did it because magic is explicitly not involved.

Pretty sure Redcloak summoned those things with magic. Isn't that what your thread is about?

taltamir
2010-01-15, 08:40 PM
Pretty sure Redcloak summoned those things with magic. Isn't that what your thread is about?

the original point of the thread had little to do with this tangent argument on whether or not DnD world CAN be said to be "real world physics except where magic is involved".

taltamir
2010-01-15, 08:42 PM
There was a movie which explained this. Basically, they have two glands which secrete a substance which, when mixed, produces a violently exothermic reaction. Thus the 'breath of flame' is merely an efficent set of muscles which spray these substances out in a cone spray, which then ignites as the two materials are mixed.

I saw it... it used a platinum catalyst...
it was sketchy at best, and it was extremely limited in range, heat, and most importantly, could not be used freely every 6 to 24 seconds. (they had to recharge their biofuel).

if you notice my whole argument, which you quoted, was those issues... not the possibility that a creature might produce flame (that is not at all impossible... just impractical. Too much effort for too little result)

Draken
2010-01-15, 08:58 PM
Just meaning to say, there is a flaw in the fire breathing part of the discussion, the fire breath of a dragon is a supernatural ability and cannot be used in an area of antimagic.

Going further into a tangent, Draconomicon explains the firebreath of dragons in D&D, it is related to a special organ owned by true dragons (some latin name, don't remember now), connected to their lungs, said organ is also related to the fact that dragons are endothermic (even the frost ones).

Also, try to think of the four classic elements in D&D not as the hard and fast elements of the D&D world (as if they were there would be no metal, for instance), but larger groups of specific elements based on their natural state (Solid, Liquid or Gaseous) plus reactions. Considering the intensely religious nature of the ordering of a D&D universe, it is likely that such groupings and their related planes are merely the work of deities "organizing the shelf of the ingredients of creation".

So it really has little to do with wizards or magic. It's the GODS, who are overly active in a D&D world.

Slayn82
2010-01-15, 09:16 PM
@Taltamir: Have you ever studied the story of the evolution of Science Paradigms? It filled with tales about how laws that the smartest persons of the world at a given moment had formulated and verified, but that their assumptions were incorrect.

To most well learned scientists of the 19th Century, well learned on physics and thermodinamics, the laws of electricity and our quantum mechanics would look so arcane that they could very well claim their achievements as magic for all that they cared. No model of nature they could conceive could include that.

And at least in Forggoten Realms, the laws of nature are explicitly said to be exactly as the ones from our universe, except were magic is involved. And a few flavor texts show mages debating about what are the "true" elements of nature and magic. Having the right paradigms is very important to proper intelectual development, and cognition theories ( among with the theory of multiple intelligences (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory_of_multiple_intelligences)) say that the intelligence of one individual should actually be measured in relation with that referential. (So, one point in favor for the INT, WIS and CHAR stat division)

Giant spiders and firebreathing dragons? Well, mankind is not ready for those things, we barelly can manage the Platypus. All the laws of the nature say that they should not exist as such. But they do.

If magic is around, it could very well change the enviroments enought to allow that unnusual molecular arrangements and structures, based on ordinary laws of physics, to emerge, and be stable even in the absence of magic after special enzimes and specific organelles were developed by the species in question. Result: stable lifeform even in an AMF.

As an comparisson, certain kinds of cosmic radiation can easily kill earth life forms, due to the ability to break certain chemical bonds in DNA. If, in a planet who lacks proper shielding agains that radiation, life developed, it would follow a few different biological laws to take that into acount. The lack of such radiation could very well be fatal for such creatures, and Earth could be an inhospitable land for them.

Gurps handles this question (Magic x Science) better than D&D, you should check it a little someday. Sorry if i went a little too talkative.

Devils_Advocate
2010-01-15, 10:58 PM
why bother bringing physics into a game in the first place?
I consider this to be an important point.

Here's the thing. Giving some races heat vision sounds neat in principle, and it even is neat. But it sort of requires more work than it's worth, because then you have to work out all the time what a scene looks like to someone with heat vision. It's easier to just give some races night vision so good that it works in perfect darkness. And there's nothing implausible about that in a fantasy setting, precisely because a fantasy setting doesn't have to operate by the same rules as the real world. You can just go ahead and choose the easier way of doing things. You're totally justified in including something even if it would never work in our universe, because the setting you're including it in isn't part of our universe.

At this point, saying "Oh, and darkvision actually inexplicably works by the real world's laws of physics, BTW" doesn't really add anything. It's not a logical impossibility, but there's no reason to specify that, so why would you? It breaks immersion by forcing an out-of-setting perspective on things instead of looking at the setting through the characters' eyes.

And if you accept that a magical fantasy world doesn't have to work like our world on any level, then that can help it not to bother you when the rules are "unrealistic", which it shouldn't. Not reliably simulating reality isn't a bug, it's a feature. "Realistically", the knight who tries to slay the incredibly strong and tough fire-breathing dragon gets pounded into paste, and this is such a foregone conclusion that no one even tries to slay the dragon at all. But fantasy doesn't work like that! It's not realistic! That's the point!


I know we've move on slightly from the orignal argument, but after a quick look to find information that specifically states that the chemical elements do not exsit and didn't find anything. While the greek elements do seem to be in use, I don't see how this invalidates the chemical elements.
Elements are the fundamental substances not made up of other substances. That's what "element" means, yo. Elemental water made up of hydrogen and oxygen is a contradiction in terms.


Also, try to think of the four classic elements in D&D not as the hard and fast elements of the D&D world (as if they were there would be no metal, for instance), but larger groups of specific elements based on their natural state (Solid, Liquid or Gaseous) plus reactions.
You actually could say that instead of actual substances, the D&D elements correspond to states of matter: solid (Earth), liquid (Water), gas (Air), and plasma (Fire). This turns "elements" into a misnomer, of course, but it could just be that in-setting academics misunderstand their nature.

Another_Poet
2010-01-19, 12:45 PM
2. Custom monsters are ok, using real world and modern physics isn't. In DnD world you have the philosophical elements, not the real world chemical elements.

A read-through of the core books reveals that the D&D world has (at least) iron, copper, silver, gold, and platinum. Those are real world chemical elements. There is no reason to exclude titanium, another real-world element. And anything can be animated, including a giant hunk of titanium, thus become a RAW core monster. Having a cleric talk about how it is way better than the four classical elements and that people should take a chem class is just good GMing.

Sinfire Titan
2010-01-19, 12:54 PM
Damn you, good sir. I just lost an hour. An hour.

I don't even remember how I wound up on Metroid.

be glad it was only an hour. I lost 9 trying to mess with BlazBlue's WMG section.

Tinydwarfman
2010-01-19, 02:22 PM
I don't understand how summoning a modified earth elemental is not raw. Don't give me that "there are no real world elements in DnD" crap, it doesn't matter! It's new elemental, that happens to be quite similar and possibly partially composed of earth. Are you saying that storm elementals are not raw? If you are talking about them launching the elementals out of a canon, I don't know of any canon rules so I can't say.