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Calimehter
2010-01-15, 05:36 PM
Longtime (though infrequent) reader, first time poster! :)

I recently learned about the "E6" method of running d20 games, and after reviewing the articles about it, I ate it right up and promptly instituted it in my campaign. It really speaks to the tone and feel of my campaign world as I've written it up since AD@D 2nd. ed.. Back in those days it was much easier for a DM to simply say "This is a lower magic world than, say, FR" since so much of the item creation and other magical aspects were under DM control. Nowadays (3.5 for us anyway) spells are more powerful and item creation is much more structured and available to PCs right from the PHB . . . a welcome change from a mechanics standpoint, but a bit of a pain for the low-magic set.

The transition to E6 went very smoothly (thanks to the campaign tone and the fact that the PCs were all around 3rd level or so when the switch happened). Now, however, they are all at or near the "capstone" 6th level, meaning that extra feats will be the primary mechanical reward for gaining XP.

So, I was wondering:

- Do many folks play E6 with D&D 3.5?

- How have your campaigns gone once you've hit the "capstone" level?

- Do you use an alternate XP system slowing advancement, or do you use the XP tables straight from the DMG?

Shadowbane
2010-01-15, 06:04 PM
I use a slightly slower XP advancement system, about 20 encounters per level. My gaming group is, however, divided into two groups: two roll-players who are getting much better at role-playing and two role-players who are getting better at roll-playing.

So there's an absolute ton of encounters, since the first group loves them and second group is determined to get better. The rest of the time is spent laughing because of the banter between the father-son role-players.

Tyndmyr
2010-01-15, 06:14 PM
I've not played it, but I want to try it out sometime, it looks great.

I've also got an idea rolling around in my head for making a system called G6. It works like E6, but basically, at level 6, you can opt to reset at level 1, and in doing so, gain the ability to gestalt. Doing so multiple times stacks.

Thus, someone who reset three times would play a Class//Class//Class//Class character.

Needlessly complicated? Probably. But it's another way for characters to expand themselves without relying entirely on the feat mechanic.

Shadowbane
2010-01-15, 06:18 PM
I quite like that idea, though I would not try it with inexperienced players.

Jimp
2010-01-15, 07:50 PM
I'm making an E6 setting at the moment. From my experience of 1-6 play it should work out well. I tend to handwave "everyone levels up" instead of handing out XP in game though so the rate of advancement thing doesn't really come up much.

Calimehter
2010-01-15, 10:46 PM
Resetting to gestalt does sound interesting, though I don't think I want to substitute that for feats just yet. I'll keep it in mind though, if the feat thing turns out to be a bit slow. It would be a bit of a pain to convert in "mid stream", but if the feat thing is really not working and causing dissatisfaction then maybe they wouldn't mind the bit of extra work. :smallcool:

I might also have to keep it in mind if the NPCs in the campaign start to become too easy to deal with once the PCs get up there in levels. There are a fair share of high level NPCs in my world that have piles of bonus feats . . . but a true 12th level NPC inspires a lot more respect than his E6 counterpart (a 6th level character with several bonus feats), and I find myself missing that level of respect from the PCs once in a while.

Glimbur
2010-01-15, 10:51 PM
but a true 12th level NPC inspires a lot more respect than his E6 counterpart (a 6th level character with several bonus feats), and I find myself missing that level of respect from the PCs once in a while.

Monsters aren't capped at 6 HD. The classic example would be a dragon, but you could have any manner of extra-powerful foe who you can't beat just by gaining more levels, but instead need to use your head and possibly plot-based magic to weaken.

Coidzor
2010-01-15, 11:16 PM
So what is the way one uses one's head to take down a CR 15 dragon as a party of 4 level 6 characters, anyway?

Glimbur
2010-01-15, 11:27 PM
So what is the way one uses one's head to take down a CR 15 dragon as a party of 4 level 6 characters, anyway?

If the DM sends a CR 15 dragon, either you flat out cheat and it plays dumb or it's a TPK. CR 7,8, maybe 9? Doable, if you research it to figure out its habits and ambush it. You might need to hire expendable mercenaries. You might have to poison it (good luck). You might make a deal with a slightly smaller dragon...

Calimehter
2010-01-15, 11:28 PM
If you're playing true E6, the dragon's sorcerer levels would be capped off at 6th too. That doesn't make the big guy any easier to hit or reduce his saves any (I think) but it does help simplify things a bit.

Making the Incantations rules from UA available helps too, making powerful effects available (though very hard to find, use, and survive their drawbacks) to PC and enemy alike.

--------------------------

I cheated around the problem in my own world by making dragons extinct (long story). There are plenty of other nasty >>CR6 monsters out there, to be sure, but none that cause quite so many "why haven't they taken over the world and run it for themselves" problems as dragons do.

Olo Demonsbane
2010-01-15, 11:56 PM
So what is the way one uses one's head to take down a CR 15 dragon as a party of 4 level 6 characters, anyway?

Shivering Touch.

@OP: I like E6, though my current E6 characters are only 2nd level. I handwave XP as well though, so I can't offer you help there...

Tyndmyr
2010-01-16, 01:16 AM
Resetting to gestalt does sound interesting, though I don't think I want to substitute that for feats just yet. I'll keep it in mind though, if the feat thing turns out to be a bit slow. It would be a bit of a pain to convert in "mid stream", but if the feat thing is really not working and causing dissatisfaction then maybe they wouldn't mind the bit of extra work. :smallcool:

I see it as a good addition to feats, not as a replacement for them. In some cases, another gestalted level might be more important than a feat, but often(especially once you've gotten some gestalt under your belt), an extra feat might be more important.

CR15 dragon? Doable....with lots of prep, and it's presumable that you've spent a fair amount of time at level 6. Feats do continue to increase power, even if they're just toughness or another +2 to a save. Eventually, you'll be able to take out reasonably high CR stuff. CR 15 will likely always remain a rather tough challenge, though.

Drakevarg
2010-01-16, 01:37 AM
Where can I read up on this stuff? Or is it just "when they level up they don't get anything, but every 3 levels worth of XP they get their feats/every 4 levels attribute increase"?

gorfnab
2010-01-16, 01:41 AM
Where can I read up on this stuff? Or is it just "when they level up they don't get anything, but every 3 levels worth of XP they get their feats/every 4 levels attribute increase"?
Here you go.
E6 (http://www.enworld.org/forum/general-rpg-discussion/206323-e6-game-inside-d-d.html)
G6 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=80811)

Tyndmyr
2010-01-16, 01:50 AM
Aw, I need to pick an name other than G6 for my idea, then. Didn't realize it meant something else.

Drakevarg
2010-01-16, 01:50 AM
Hrm... I'd say my only problem with E6 (literally, my ONLY problem; I love it otherwise.) is that a good 70% of the templates I use flat out deny the ability to use E6. Which is terrible, since most of them are crucial to the campaign setting.

Tyndmyr
2010-01-16, 01:51 AM
Use LA buyoff perhaps?

It won't fix it 100%, but it might help.

Drakevarg
2010-01-16, 01:56 AM
LA Buyoffs? Wuzzat?

Tyndmyr
2010-01-16, 02:03 AM
Basically, at a set level, you pay experience points to get rid of a level of LA.

In E6, it strikes me as particularly useful. I think by default, you could only get rid of one level of LA in E6, but you might want to house rule that people can save up XP once they max out on levels in order to buy off more.

Drakevarg
2010-01-16, 02:09 AM
Let me run a quick simulation here to try and understand what you're saying:

Let's say we have a Half-Fiend Human Druid 1. ECL 5, but only because of the +4 LA.

The theory here being that this character can only reach Druid 2 before they reach the Level 6 capstone. Thereon out, he can spend is feat that he gains every 5000 xp to trade 1 LA for 1 open level slot, yes?

Tyndmyr
2010-01-16, 02:13 AM
Let me run a quick simulation here to try and understand what you're saying:

Let's say we have a Half-Fiend Human Druid 1. ECL 5, but only because of the +4 LA.

The theory here being that this character can only reach Druid 2 before they reach the Level 6 capstone. Thereon out, he can spend is feat that he gains every 5000 xp to trade 1 LA for 1 open level slot, yes?

Well, it probably should be limited in terms of how many he can buy off....otherwise, everyones going to go for ridiculously high LA stuff.

But yeah, that's the basic idea. Blowing more xp to convert one of those LA to an open level slot.

Drakevarg
2010-01-16, 02:16 AM
Well, being E6 you logically could have a maximum possible LA of +5. Since anything more and you wouldn't be able to have any class levels. (6 LA = 6/6 level slots = nothing left for class levels = no BAB, Saves, Hit Dice... being existant...)

And anything with more than 6HD is right out.

Which, for me at least, still renders Vampires (+8 LA), Mummies (8 HD), and Illithid (Too much of both) impossible.

Tyndmyr
2010-01-16, 02:18 AM
Well, in their standard forms, yes. I believe lesser versions of at least some of those exist, which are probably more power appropriate for E6 anyhow.

I mean, as it stands, illithid are not really suitable for PCs in E6.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2010-01-16, 02:22 AM
Let me run a quick simulation here to try and understand what you're saying:

Let's say we have a Half-Fiend Human Druid 1. ECL 5, but only because of the +4 LA.

The theory here being that this character can only reach Druid 2 before they reach the Level 6 capstone. Thereon out, he can spend is feat that he gains every 5000 xp to trade 1 LA for 1 open level slot, yes?

E6 doesn't work that way.

There's a character level limit of 6, which level adjustment does not apply to. LA only applies to effective character level (ECL), which is what you base XP gains on. Character level only counts class levels and racial hit dice, i.e. levels that actually grant HP and increase max skill ranks. A +4 LA character can actually hit ECL 10 in an E6 game, because just like everyone else he stops at his 6th class level/HD.

I'll use your example of a Half-Fiend Human Druid 1. According to E6 (http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?t=352719) (second post, in the FAQ: Using E6 spoiler), that character would use 0 point buy for stats, so every ability score would be 8 plus racial adjustments, for a total of Str 12, Dex 12, Con 10, Int 12, Wis 8, Cha 10. Not very good for a Druid, but you still get all the rest of the benefits of being a half-fiend without any LA.

Drakevarg
2010-01-16, 02:22 AM
True dat. Even for my campaign the Illithid would've been reserved for a high level questline anyway...

As for Vampires, Vampire Spawn can't be made in E6 due to ECL 8 (4 HD, +4 LA) and Mummies again have 8 HD and +4 LA, while Mummified Creatures, which retain class levels, merely have a +4 LA so they're doable.

So, save for painful levels of nerfage, most of my undead races are rendered unplayable by E6... but other than that its such a likeable system... :smallfrown:

EDIT: Ninja'd. Hrm... so only HD count for caps? That still renders Minotaurs incapable of class levels (6 Racial HD) but at least everything but Mummies are now doable...

As for the rest... I don't use pointy buy... or is it a necessity for E6?

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2010-01-16, 02:26 AM
True dat. Even for my campaign the Illithid would've been reserved for a high level questline anyway...

As for Vampires, Vampire Spawn can't be made in E6 due to ECL 8 (4 HD, +4 LA) and Mummies again have 8 HD and +4 LA, while Mummified Creatures, which retain class levels, merely have a +4 LA so they're doable.

So, save for painful levels of nerfage, most of my undead races are rendered unplayable by E6... but other than that its such a likeable system... :smallfrown:

No, go back and read the E6 thread (http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?t=352719) again, particularly the spoilers in the second post (http://forum.rpg.net/showpost.php?p=7764860&postcount=2). All level adjustments from +1 to +4 are reduced to +0 for E6, but in exchange your ability scores are lower starting out.

Drakevarg
2010-01-16, 02:29 AM
You were ninja'd by my response to you ninja-ing me...

Calimehter
2010-01-16, 04:08 PM
The trade-off for running "grittier" fantasy is that you are stuck with the grittier race/class options. *shrug*

There's always the E8 and E10 variants too, if you want to bump up the power level a bit (yet still keep out the highest level spells) for purposes of accessing more powerful PC races/templates.

taltamir
2010-01-16, 04:17 PM
E6 sounds kinda cool at first, but when I think about it it becomes too convoluted.
Why not just play another RPG system that simply doesn't lend itself to the "god mode" of leveling?
an average party takes 2 months in game to go from level 1 to 20, going from dirt farmer to god.
Play a low point GURPS campaign and this isn't an issue.

E6 DnD seems like it makes it easier to make bad builds and mroe difficult to represent a lot of things, while really not benefiting much at all from the strengths of the dnd system.

Draz74
2010-01-16, 05:23 PM
If the DM sends a CR 15 dragon, either you flat out cheat and it plays dumb or it's a TPK. CR 7,8, maybe 9? Doable, if you research it to figure out its habits and ambush it. You might need to hire expendable mercenaries. You might have to poison it (good luck). You might make a deal with a slightly smaller dragon...

Note, that last strategy works against any CR, even 15. :smallwink:


Aw, I need to pick an name other than G6 for my idea, then. Didn't realize it meant something else.

Actually, Djinn_In_Tonic has moved on to a system that he calls "G7" instead, so he might be fine with handing over the "G6" name to you. You'll still be competing with him in people's minds for their memory space, though. :smallsmile:


No, go back and read the E6 thread (http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?t=352719) again, particularly the spoilers in the second post (http://forum.rpg.net/showpost.php?p=7764860&postcount=2). All level adjustments from +1 to +4 are reduced to +0 for E6, but in exchange your ability scores are lower starting out.

This is obviously not one of the well-thought out, thoroughly tested parts of E6, though, and it's been proven that it's not too hard to break it. Pixies, for example, give you enough stat boosts to almost make up for their LA, even before you start considering their Invisibility and Flight advantages.

elonin
2010-01-16, 05:34 PM
I'm not into the low magic setting for dnd, but don't mind the tolkien style magic if the monster abilities are also toned down (ie taking out disintigrate removes it from monster SLA's too).

Tyndmyr
2010-01-16, 06:02 PM
Low magic works, but only at low levels, tbh.

Anything above about E6 just breaks wide open if you try to use low magic...the game just wasn't balanced around it.

Calimehter
2010-01-17, 11:10 PM
E6 sounds kinda cool at first, but when I think about it it becomes too convoluted.
Why not just play another RPG system that simply doesn't lend itself to the "god mode" of leveling?

.....................

E6 DnD seems like it makes it easier to make bad builds and mroe difficult to represent a lot of things, while really not benefiting much at all from the strengths of the dnd system.

I'm not sure how E6 is not using the strengths of the DnD system, as it is using the DnD system to run. You lose some high level stuff, which is often considered the point at which the game balance starts to break down anyway.

I would concede the point that with fewer levels to work with, a mistake when choosing a class/feat mix can be harder to overcome . . . though I would counter with the arguement that fewer levels to work with makes planning out a character path advancement a bit easier, and having access to loads of feats at "epic" levels regardless of class can help re-optimize a build that got a little bit off-track.

As Tyndmyr noted, its about the only way to do DnD at a lower magic level without a massive, massive rewrite of the rules (and ending up with a final product which would look rather like E6 in the end anyway IMO). Other systems can work too, but our group has a history in DnD, and we really don't want to invest the time and money in a new system when a very simple "mod" like E6 works with our existing background and sourcebooks.

Doug Lampert
2010-01-18, 06:50 PM
As Tyndmyr noted, its about the only way to do DnD at a lower magic level without a massive, massive rewrite of the rules (and ending up with a final product which would look rather like E6 in the end anyway IMO). Other systems can work too, but our group has a history in DnD, and we really don't want to invest the time and money in a new system when a very simple "mod" like E6 works with our existing background and sourcebooks.

Eh? If all you want is lower magic but the physical types don't bother you, just cap all caster levels and caster classes at level 6. Half casters like Rangers and Paladins cap at level 12. Prestige classes that advance casting count against the class limit.

No items requiring a CL > 6 to make or a spell higher than level 3 to manufacture exist.

Done. A level 20 rogue or Martial Adept is still plenty powerful enough to have a chance against most high level foes, but you've taken all the magical "I win" buttons out of the game.

At really high CR or level the monsters get a bit nasty. But it's not too bad.

Jimp
2010-01-18, 09:30 PM
That idea won't work as well as E6 since the non-caster classes also rely on bonuses from magic items for balance. WBL and all that. It also removes any point in playing casters. E6 is a simple solution with the only real downside being DMs having to scale back level/XP granting.

Lapak
2010-01-18, 10:23 PM
E6 sounds kinda cool at first, but when I think about it it becomes too convoluted.
Why not just play another RPG system that simply doesn't lend itself to the "god mode" of leveling?
an average party takes 2 months in game to go from level 1 to 20, going from dirt farmer to god.
Play a low point GURPS campaign and this isn't an issue.Um. WHAT?

Is it technically possible to reach level 20 in 2 months, assuming that 4 level-appropriate encounters come up and knock on your door every single day for two months straight, and you never travel anywhere, and you have no downtime, and no plot? Yes.

Is that how the average party leveling process works? No. In fact, I've never actually heard of any real game going that way.

In-game, I'd expect level six to take somewhere on the order of, oh, one to two years of regular adventuring. Out of game, it could be that long or longer.


E6 DnD seems like it makes it easier to make bad builds and mroe difficult to represent a lot of things, while really not benefiting much at all from the strengths of the dnd system.On the contrary - I find that to be right around the sweet spot for the d20 system in general.

LibraryOgre
2010-01-18, 11:36 PM
E6 DnD seems like it makes it easier to make bad builds and mroe difficult to represent a lot of things, while really not benefiting much at all from the strengths of the dnd system.

I disagree. Unless you have a simply horrible mechanical concept ("I'm going to take 1 level in six different classes, giving me a whole lot of spells!"), E6 doesn't seem to have many big mechanical pitfalls. While a Fighter 6 might not be the OPTIMAL character, he's not that horrid in an E6 game... he's got the martial skill to keep up, while the wizards and such are scraping a bit for spells at the end of the day.

Tyndmyr
2010-01-19, 08:09 AM
Capping caster classes at 6 means you have to re-do a lot of mobs. 6 levels of ur priest is what, sixth level spells? How do you deal with classes like Sublime Chord?

It ends up being more complicated in the end, really.

E6 isn't perfect, but it ends up being much more consistent.

Lapak
2010-01-19, 08:29 AM
Capping caster classes at 6 means you have to re-do a lot of mobs. 6 levels of ur priest is what, sixth level spells? How do you deal with classes like Sublime Chord? You seem to be missing the point of E6. Spells over level 3 don't exist. You can't qualify for Sublime Chord OR Ur-Priest at all, given the PrC skill rank requirements. So... your objections are pretty off-target, unless you're just trying to get a reaction?

Tyndmyr
2010-01-19, 08:42 AM
You seem to be missing the point of E6. Spells over level 3 don't exist. You can't qualify for Sublime Chord OR Ur-Priest at all, given the PrC skill rank requirements. So... your objections are pretty off-target, unless you're just trying to get a reaction?

Those objections were not to E6. Those objections were to the proposed alternative fix to E6 that simply allowed only 6 levels of each caster class.

RagnaroksChosen
2010-01-19, 09:31 AM
Those objections were not to E6. Those objections were to the proposed alternative fix to E6 that simply allowed only 6 levels of each caster class.

How would you get eaither of those prestige classes if all you can get to is level 6. The whole point of E6 is that you don't have casting above level 6 so nothing above 3rd level spells.. It was stated pritty clearly in the pdf that this was the intent and rules.


Any way to OP:
E6 rocks.. that is pritty much what we play with my group. Im a big fan of low magic which we do with no problem. The only house rule i have is for potions. which i use as alchemy. you CL for making alchemy is = your HD.
though i have yet to have an alchemist player so it realy hasn't come into effect.


as far as taking down higher level monsters. once you hit cap its realy not that hard. My group took down an mature adult white dragon(cr12). they where at 6+1. Took them months of prep work. thousands of gold. but they did... it was pritty amusing too... they lured it into a cave that they had raging fires going... with an illusion spell. then sealed the cave and dumped pitch and alchemists fire and other things onto it...

They had first tried a more direct route but almost died trying...


but ya big fan of e6.

Foryn Gilnith
2010-01-19, 09:40 AM
How would you get eaither of those prestige classes if all you can get to is level 6.

Those objections were not to E6.

You quoted the post, so you had ample opportunity to read it. :smallannoyed:

I find that Tippyverse + E6 is a surprisingly nice combination. No teleportation, no mindrape, and very little food-creation, so the resulting world looks pretty normal. But there's easily enough spells available at first and second level that it still feels like Tippyverse.

RagnaroksChosen
2010-01-19, 10:25 AM
You quoted the post, so you had ample opportunity to read it. :smallannoyed:


Yes i did read the post. it was more to the effect of what mobs have levels of ur priest or falchon lyrist or any of those... so the preposed fix does work? its actualy realy simple stop leveling casters at 6 including npc levels...such as nymphs.

i was just pointing out that the fix would work and its intended to be that way(no casters above 6) i've never seen a premade monster with prestige class levels.

if i misunderstood or still am misunderstanding sorry about that.

Lapak
2010-01-19, 10:30 AM
Those objections were not to E6. Those objections were to the proposed alternative fix to E6 that simply allowed only 6 levels of each caster class.My apologies; I misunderstood which post you were responding to.

Tyndmyr
2010-01-19, 10:32 AM
To clarify:

E6: Everyone only gets 6 levels, ever. Ur-priest or sublime chord are not concerns here, due to enterance requirements. High ECL mobs with abilities or casting are likewise, not a concern.

6levelsPerCastingClass: Classes like Ur-Priest can be taken by non-casters, and provide high level spells. This is true for all accelerated casting classes. In addition, monsters with SLAs or casting classes normally inaccessible by level 6 are quite common at higher levels.

Thus, option B has unaddressed problems that require significant work to fix, and thus, E6 is preferable.

Jayabalard
2010-01-19, 10:45 AM
In addition, monsters with SLAs or casting classes normally inaccessible by level 6 are quite common at higher levels. This is not a true statement; it's a very game/group/dm specific statement. Certainly, they may be common in your games, or in published modules, but that doesn't necessarily mean that they're common in low magic games.

In low magic games, you're much more likely to run into things that are fairly mundane but more powerful than norma (for example, non-magic or low-magic monsters advanced via additional class levels), or parties of NPC's with all or mostly PC races and PC class levels.


Low magic works, but only at low levels, tbh.It works ok at higher levels, as long as "low magic" does not just apply to the players and you have a GM who is knows how to created encounters that are balanced around the abilities that the PC's have.

doc225
2010-01-20, 10:55 AM
From what I have seen, your "build" is secondary to your backstory in E6. E6 is meant for gamers who want a grittier feel, with PC's who are more than just numbers on the page. It is designed so those monsters you fought at 1st level, can still be a threat when you hit your level cap.

If you look at the table for experience awards in the DMG3.5, It still awards experience for CR1 monsters, and it shows CR 13 as being the highest you should put a 6th level party against. Now, open to the appendix of the MM, where it sorts monsters by CR, and put your finger on where CR13 stops. Your looking at roughly 1/3 of the last column being "out of bounds." You still have a vast majority of that book to pull from, without adding levels to named NPC's or advancing monsters.

E6 was made for folks who want to play without worrying if the build is "optimal" or what "tier" their class is. I am not saying that any way of playing is wrong. Just that there ARE different ways of playing, and that sometimes, a system tweak is needed to make these different styles playable. E6 is just as much D&D as 1st, 2nd, or even 4th edition. It's just a preference for playstyle.