Question about my paladin

[Vemynal]

New question, same character so ignore the part below the line cuz thanks to everyone thats all fixed =)

The paladin I'm designing is a level 5 Paladin of Tyranny/4 Thayan Knight (Faerun campaign), lawful evil.

at level 9 a series of rp events are goign to happen to change him into a chaotic good person (trying to take down the red wizards and a few other deeds)

What i was wondering is if, as a DM, you'd be comfortable letting a player continue his levels in paladin as a paladin of freedom and whether you'd be ok retroactively changing the levels of Paladin of Tyranny to Paladin of Freedom

(essentially making the character a 5 Paladin of Freedom/ 4 Thayan Knight/ continue as Paladin of Freedom)

The reason I ask is because it wouldnt include an overhaul of the character but rather just changing:
Aura of Evil to Aura of Good
Detect Good to Detect Evil
Smite Good to Smite Evil
Deadly Touch to Lay on hands
Aura of Despair for Aura of Resolve
Cause disease for cure disease

Was asking because I haven't met the guy who's going to be in charge of the campaign yet and wanted to get an idea. Because otherwise the character is going to have 5 levels in (I quote Roy) "fighter without bonus feats"

The RP is all covered, just wondering about the switch itself

------------------------------------------------------------------

I've been doing a lot of research into templates recently, one type in particular is the Iron half-golem template

Problem is, while reading the summary of the template it doesn't give a level adjustment, only a challenge rating.

For a little while I assume a LA was just twice the CR but i found when observing the vampire templates that the listed LA was 10 for one but the CR was 3

So my question is, how do I tell what the LA should be for templates that don't specifically list it

and more specifically what should the level adjustment be for an Iron half-golem:

http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s18/Vemynal_photo/Games/templateiron.png

[Oslecamo]

Half-golem is 3.0. LA didn't exist by then.

As for possible LA for them, I would say that their CR=LA is fine, if the player pays the cost of the arm out of his own pocket(prices are in MMII). Cr+1 or Cr+2 otherwise.

As a regular guideline, templates LA shouldn't be bigger than their CR+1 or +2, depending on how powerfull the abilities will be in the hand of the player. You need to eyeball it, also depending on the campaign's power level.

Notice, vampires are one of the most over-LAd templates out there, don't use them as an example.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

The MM2 3.5 update booklet claims half-golems should be LA -- (i.e. not available for PCs), but quite frankly (A) spell immunity isn't really worth that much anymore now that it only protects against SR: Yes spells, and (B) making something powerful and just saying "PCs can't have it, it's too good" is poor and lazy design work in my view. Trust me, they're not too good; I had a half-brass-golem wendigo [more templates I don't remember] fast-zombie monster-of-legend PC (plenty of free LA/LA reduction in effect for everyone) in my game two campaigns ago, and even with fire healing and spell immunity there were plenty of ways to challenge him without even leaving core + Completes.

Anyway, that's a longwinded way of saying that half-golems should definitely be PC-playable, and I'd put it around LA +4 (+1 LA for the every-few-rounds Con damage/death breath weapon and bonus to Con, +1 for the natural armor and DR, +2 for the spell immunity). If your group isn't very rules-savvy and tends to make weaker characters, or if you have a fairly restricted list of books available, you might want to bump that up to LA +5 or +6, but I wouldn't go any higher than +6 and even +5 is a bit iffy.

[Vemynal]

whats the will save you have to make to avoid becoming a construct? I couldn't find it listed anywhere (and most google searching come up 'construt'ion'")

and the +4 con, or n/a con i presume a construct doesn't hav a con score?

[Mewtarthio]

and the +4 con, or n/a con i presume a construct doesn't hav a con score?

I think it's +4 if you pass the Will Save; otherwise, you're a construct and no longer have Con.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

whats the will save you have to make to avoid becoming a construct? I couldn't find it listed anywhere (and most google searching come up 'construt'ion'")

and the +4 con, or n/a con i presume a construct doesn't hav a con score?

There's a table for the save DC based on the number of limbs attached, in MM2 near the templates. For the first limb it's 15, then 19 for the second, 25 for the third, 33 for the fourth, 43 for the fifth, and 55 for the sixth (and that's where the table stops, though the pattern I assume would continue indefinitely if you replaced more limbs).

And Mewtarthio's right, you get null Con if you become a construct or +4 otherwise.

[Justyn]

There's a table for the save DC based on the number of limbs attached, in MM2 near the templates. For the first limb it's 15, then 19 for the second, 25 for the third, 33 for the fourth, 43 for the fifth, and 55 for the sixth (and that's where the table stops, though the pattern I assume would continue indefinitely if you replaced more limbs).

And Mewtarthio's right, you get null Con if you become a construct or +4 otherwise.

The only problem is that after the sixth, you don't have any more limbs left to replace!

1(15) - Arm
2(19 (15+4)) - Arm
3(25 (19+6)) - Leg
4(33 (25+8)) - Leg
5(43 (33+10)) - Torso & Waist
6(55 (43+12)) - Head

I suppose you can have sepperate the Chest, Torso, Waist, and Hips (and maybe the neck as well). Based on the pattern (Previous DC + (previous increase + 2)), it would be...

7 - (55+14) 69
8 - (69+16) 85
9 - (85+18) 103
10 - (103+20) 123
11 - (123+22) 145
12 - (145+24) 169
13 - (169+26) 195
14 - (195+28) 223
15 - (223+30) 253

[Reaper_Monkey]

The only problem is that after the sixth, you don't have any more limbs left to replace!


You can also get wings grafted on in some cases, or if you start with additional limbs then you have more to replace inclusive of wings. Not everything is human you know.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

The only problem is that after the sixth, you don't have any more limbs left to replace!

Assuming you're dealing with a humanoid, sure, you only have 4 limbs--counting hips, torso, etc. as limbs isn't what I was referring to. As Reaper Monkey pointed out, not everything is human--what if you're feeling sadistic and want to add the template 6 times to a dragon, say, or 8 times to an octopus? Maybe even 10 times to a drider or (Pelor forfend!) 12 times to a behir?

[Vemynal]

Steam Punk Dragon O.o

[Vemynal]

just in case people don't check the top:

New question, same character so ignore the part below the line cuz thanks to everyone thats all fixed =)

The paladin I'm designing is a level 5 Paladin of Tyranny/4 Thayan Knight (Faerun campaign), lawful evil.

at level 9 a series of rp events are goign to happen to change him into a chaotic good person (trying to take down the red wizards and a few other deeds)

What i was wondering is if, as a DM, you'd be comfortable letting a player continue his levels in paladin as a paladin of freedom and whether you'd be ok retroactively changing the levels of Paladin of Tyranny to Paladin of Freedom

(essentially making the character a 5 Paladin of Freedom/ 4 Thayan Knight/ continue as Paladin of Freedom)

The reason I ask is because it wouldnt include an overhaul of the character but rather just changing:
Aura of Evil to Aura of Good
Detect Good to Detect Evil
Smite Good to Smite Evil
Deadly Touch to Lay on hands
Aura of Despair for Aura of Resolve
Cause disease for cure disease

Was asking because I haven't met the guy who's going to be in charge of the campaign yet and wanted to get an idea. Because otherwise the character is going to have 5 levels in (I quote Roy) "fighter without bonus feats"

The RP is all covered, just wondering about the switch itself

[Latronis]

I'd allow it. and retroactively, though not instantly. You've essentially become fallen then when next you level up I'd allow all previous paladin of tyranny levels to become paladin of freedom levels when you take the next level of paladin (freedom)

[Temotei]

If you had a good reason in-game with roleplaying to the max, I'd allow it. None of that, "I'm a paladin now. I'm good. :smallbiggrin:"

It would have to be true redemption. No atonement spell either! :smalltongue:

[Vemynal]

Ok I'm paraphrasing here, and I'm also skipping Zadkiel's entire reason for being an evil paladin/thayan knight and teaming up with Naahmah in the first place. Just know they are childhood friends and that sums up a lot of detail:

Naamah is an Enchanter/Red Wizard and I'm gonna skip why (vampires, liches and Szass Tam) but he kills Zadkiel's true love. Zad doesn't know it was Naamah for a period of time but when he does find out he tries to get the drop on him (Since all Thayan Knight have to obey (fail will saves) vs a red wizard. Naamah, surprised, casts a spell that hits Zadkiel and obliterates his right arm and scars away the tattoo that require him to obey.

Left for dead Zadkiel is found and nursed back to health (Currently haven't decided by whom in faerun he should be found, doesn't necessarily have to be the order thats trying to take down the red wizards necessarily. Suggestions would be awesome, its my first Faerun campaign).

This the point where I was going to introduce the Half-golem: Iron template to make up for his missing arm. But I like an idea lat just gave me of having him be fallen for awhile (true neutral "whats the point of living", neutral good "to help others", chaotic good "To kill Naamah and free my wife's soul and the people of Thay")

Zadkiel is supposed to be the angel of Mercy, Benevolence and Freedom in christian angelic mythology, so I was thinking of having Zad (who's primary emotional drive is retribution) strike down Naamah but show mercy after freeing his wifes soul

admittedly because it might make for even more interesting rp, I've debated choosing to fail the will save and have him become a construct since i couldn't find anywhere that constructs *have* to be lawful and retain memories and personality. Also would be interesting since Mercy is derived from empathy and constructs should lack emotions

anyways sorry, short as I could make it. thank you for everyones commentary!

[Fako]

It sounds like an interesting character, but you don't want to fail the save and become a construct. According to MMII, failing the save turns you into a NE construct that hates flesh. You do retain all your memories, but you "become murderous and cruel" and will "seek methods appropriate to [your] class to slaughter as many flesh creatures as possible", according to the book... only bypass would be DM granted...

[Roderick_BR]

Sure, why not? It's not like they are different classes at all, only differeny alignment for the same classes. The DM could have an npc give him geas and atonement spells to allow him to fully change.