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rockdeworld
2010-01-16, 12:04 AM
Before I start, let me note that I have never actually played a bard. This is all just from having looked at the class. Now, having said that... PEACH :smallwink:

This is something I was thinking about as I listened to some classical music tonight - as far as I know, all Disney movies have musical numbers in them (and a lot of other good movies do as well), and in most cases the music serves to provide insight into a character, build a relationship between characters, or advance the plot. Take Aladdin for example, in the scene where Aladdin and Jasmine sing "A Whole New World." Imagine for a moment that Aladdin were a DnD bard, and he started singing, using fascinate while he did so to get the princess's interest. Similarly, with a bard's slew of abilities and skill points, the bard class can double as a rogue, or "street rat" (as several people call Aladdin).

That's just one example. But I think it's a good template in general - a bard's goal lead his allies in adventure, support them when they need help, stop the bad guy, save the world, and get the girl. Most fantasy heroes are the same. And the bard class itself - with medium BAB, good reflex and will saves, decent weapon selection, armor proficiency, even the ability to cast spells (and in armor no less!) - is a well-rounded class that can go in a lot of different directions. Its one failing may be the mediocre hit points, but not all heroes are the kind who charge into battle with the sole intention of slaying everyone that comes between them and their goal (in fact, I'd venture to say that outside of video-games, very few are).

And specifically with regards to spells, bards also have a variety of spells that serve them in battle, utility, and social situations. Grease, sleep, alarm, animate rope, charm person, and comprehend languages (among others - too many to list here) are all bard spells that would be useful in a number of real-life situations (of the sort that tend to happen in fantasy epics).

While it's not the best as far as most optimizers are concerned (the ones that don't optimize diplomacy anyway), the bard is a reasonable first choice when it comes to choosing classes. Like most heroes in the great fantasy stories, the bard is a leader - someone who can draw people together and support them in reaching their goals for the greater good. And it's rated as a Tier 3 class - the same as swordsage in case you're wondering - so it's certainly not all bad.

Put simply, bards can usually do many things moderately well, and with a little effort they can do a few things very well.

And that all has to do with roll-playing. Role-playing, as the other half of the game (or more, depending on your DM) deserves mention too. To start off with, bards have the best plot reasons for doing just about anything! Just say "it makes for a great story!" and you're set to go. And if you should happen to meet up with a few savvy adventurers who you can convince to join you, gain some experience by overcoming a slew of difficulties, get involved in a romantic relationship, and maybe save the world - why, that's all just icing on the cake.

And don't let that first possibility fool you - how many happy groups of wandering adventurers would ever come together in the first place if it weren't for a charismatic leader to guide them like the bard? Sure, there's those rare groups of people who recognize that they share a common purpose and need to travel together for awhile - but like most online MMORPGs (which I reference with the idea that most people reading this have played one), once that purpose is done - defeating an enemy (note: OOTS), exploring a dungeon, or collecting some treasure - the group tends to disperse. But if someone like a bard can convince people to stay - that they're better off together than apart - why then who knows what could happen?

Think, if you know the game, of the main character of Suikoden. He's the guiding star, who is destined to bring other people together in order to defeat a great enemy - and that's exactly what he does. While not exceptional at any one thing himself, the hero attracts people to him, and together they build an army that eventually manages to bring down the oppressive and corrupt empire that he grew up in.

Think again, of the main character of Final Fantasy VIII - Squall. You could argue that he's more of a spellsword or somesuch class, but fluffwise remember how he is the one who guides the group, who everyone looks to when their home and sense of purpose has crumbled away, and who eventually does save the girl he loves and then the world along with it - and looking cool while doing it.

Say what you will about bards - they can't hit as hard as a fighter, they can't cast spells as good as any full-casting class, they can't fully utilize a ton of useful skills like the rogue, but don't knock the bard class, because all the best heroes are bards.

Belobog
2010-01-16, 12:39 AM
Think, if you know the game, of the main character of Suikoden. He's the guiding star, who is destined to bring other people together in order to defeat a great enemy - and that's exactly what he does. While not exceptional at any one thing himself, the hero attracts people to him, and together they build an army that eventually manages to bring down the oppressive and corrupt empire that he grew up in.

This might be just me, here, but I always thought the main thing of that particular series is that it's a toss-up of whether it's the True Rune the main character possesses that gives him this presence and his 'star status'...

...Or if the main character is Just That Good. It could also be both. Or Fate. Still, it's an interesting thought. The world could use more theatrical main characters.

Temotei
2010-01-16, 12:46 AM
Not all leaders have to be bards though. What you're saying implies that leaders are almost always bards. Paladins, clerics, and sorcerers often have great Charisma too.

I agree that bards make a good hero--usually. Aladdin is a stretch. Not once did he seem to use a magical ability (other than getting Genie and the magic carpet, etc.--magic items) that I remember. The singing could be explained by...good Perform, or just a good voice.

Not sure about the other examples.

Also, look at the Greeks. Out of the Greek heroes I remember, the ones that were my favorites were not singers/spellcasters in any regards.

Same with a lot of literature.

Aldizog
2010-01-16, 12:59 AM
And don't forget, the bard has Tumble and Balance as class skills, which are great for all kinds of heroic exploits. He's basically the core Swashbuckler.

The music certainly isn't the only thing that makes a bard -- as you note, the skills, saves, weapons, armor, and spells (which could be refluffed as just bursts of heroism) make for a nice well-rounded mythic/cinematic hero type.

Temotei
2010-01-16, 01:02 AM
I agree on a lot of your points though.

Captain Jack Sparrow probably had a level or two of bard. Maybe a spell-less variant? Or maybe he took the spells that just boost Jump or something. :smallamused: Or charm person, etc.

Interesting...

Lycanthromancer
2010-01-16, 01:05 AM
All the best heroes are bards.

And all the best bards are straight. :smallfrown:

Which is funny, since stereotypically gay guys do acting and singing a lot more than straight guys do.

...So why are most actors ostensibly straight? :smallconfused:

:smallamused:

Marillion
2010-01-16, 01:12 AM
Bards. So you can't kill like a fighter, steal like a rogue, heal like a cleric, or cast like a wizard. Who cares? You always get the wine, women, song.

dyslexicfaser
2010-01-16, 01:57 AM
Think again, of the main character of Final Fantasy VIII - Squall. You could argue that he's more of a spellsword or somesuch class, but fluffwise remember how he is the one who guides the group, who everyone looks to when their home and sense of purpose has crumbled away, and who eventually does save the girl he loves and then the world along with it - and looking cool while doing it.

A bard that does as little talking as he can get away with?

Blasphemy!

Also, while you make some good points, please allow me this small rebuttal (http://www.shawntionary.com/chainmailbikini/?p=106).

That is all. Thank you.

Vaynor
2010-01-16, 02:18 AM
Bards. So you can't kill like a fighter, steal like a rogue, heal like a cleric, or cast like a wizard. Who cares? You always get the wine, women, song.

Wrong, for the most part. With a little optimization and use of a few splat books, bards can deal insane damage both on their own but also improving their ally's damage by a large margin as well. Sublime Chord grants you up to level 9 spells and fairly good ones at that, a quick dip into crusader gives you Song of the White Raven (swift inspire courage), Snowflake Wardance for some pretty nifty increased weapon damage (+Cha mod to weapon damage per perform rank), Words of Creation (doubles inspire courage bonus), Song of the Heart (+1 inspire courage), Dragonfire Inspiration (+1d6 fire damage per point of inspire courage increase, which ), Seeker of the Song Prc (2 level dip to combine inspire courage and inspire greatness), and other boosts allow the bard to deal insane melee damage while still buffing his party. I've seen weapon bonuses something +12+Cha to attack and +15+10d6 damage per attack on a mid level bard.

Edit: Just ignore me, I really need to get some sleep.

Marillion
2010-01-16, 02:20 AM
Wrong, for the most part. With a little optimization and use of a few splat books, bards can deal insane damage both on their own but also improving their ally's damage by a large margin as well. Sublime Chord grants you up to level 9 spells and fairly good ones at that, a quick dip into crusader gives you Song of the White Raven (swift inspire courage), Snowflake Wardance for some pretty nifty increased weapon damage (+Cha mod to weapon damage per perform rank), Words of Creation (doubles inspire courage bonus), Song of the Heart (+1 inspire courage), Dragonfire Inspiration (+1d6 fire damage per point of inspire courage increase, which ), Seeker of the Song Prc (2 level dip to combine inspire courage and inspire greatness), and other boosts allow the bard to deal insane melee damage while still buffing his party. I've seen weapon bonuses something +12+Cha to attack and +15+10d6 damage per attack on a mid level bard.
You, uh...You kinda missed the point...

Touchy
2010-01-16, 03:16 AM
All the best heroes are bards.

And all the best bards are straight. :smallfrown:

Which is funny, since stereotypically gay guys do acting and singing a lot more than straight guys do.

...So why are most actors ostensibly straight? :smallconfused:

:smallamused:

Because, that's what it is, a stereotype, which has a root in reality, but is not true. The accent of stereotypical gay would also limit the amount of possibilities as well.

Tackyhillbillu
2010-01-16, 03:21 AM
I disagree. The best Heroes are Factotums.

chiasaur11
2010-01-16, 03:21 AM
Weird thing.

In Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser, the small, street smart guy with some magical training?

Probably not a bard.

The seven foot tall barbarian with a longsword and an axe?

No magic, but the guy does a fair deal of singing, some of everything, can play a crowd...

Kris Strife
2010-01-16, 03:27 AM
Actually, bards are terrible heroes. They're just the only ones who can make up their own publicity for it.

Think about it. How do the tales of the heroes' epic deeds get spread around? Bards! Who writes the songs of valor in the face of impending doom? Bards! Even the 'magical effects' of their music can be easily explained! Who here hasn't become excited or had goosebumps from an awesome/moving song. Extra accuracy and jumping ability? Just your standard adrenline rush. Enemies have negative effects? Sad, slow music that leaves you feeling depressed and drained.

Seriously, why share the credit with the rest of your party, when you can take it all for yourself and look like the greatest hero ever? Why admit all you did was play an inspiring or depressing song, when you can say you have 'magical music powers'? And as for the few spells they can cast? They're just weak sorcerers who don't have the amount of power as others.

bosssmiley
2010-01-16, 10:14 AM
The best heroes are Bards in 3E terms?

John Carter, Elric of Melnibone, Red Kane, Conan the Cimmerian, Holger Karlsen, King Arthur, Aragorn and Sam Gamgee want a word with you...

That said, remove their sappy "induce musical interlude" powers, refluff bardic magic as scene-stealing stunts rather than being the work of a ponce with a mandolin, and the bard is the classic swashbuckler.

Radar
2010-01-16, 10:20 AM
@Kris Strife
As a bard you're not just an adventurer, you're gentelmen adventurer. :smalltongue:
(not exactly, but sort of like him (http://girlgenius.wikia.com/wiki/Othar_Tryggvassen,_Gentleman_Adventurer))

Evard
2010-01-16, 10:28 AM
really alladin wasn't a hero... just kinda got thrusted into that position

Most heroes are not bards, most heroes are conned into being heroes by bards -_-;;;

in a party of 4-5 1 will be a bard... and if they all go on the same adventure then only 1/4 to 1/5 of the great heroes are bards :p


edit: the best heroes are monks... look at any Jackie Chan movie :D

Gametime
2010-01-16, 12:29 PM
The best heroes are Bards in 3E terms?

John Carter, Elric of Melnibone, Red Kane, Conan the Cimmerian, Holger Karlsen, King Arthur, Aragorn and Sam Gamgee want a word with you...

That said, remove their sappy "induce musical interlude" powers, refluff bardic magic as scene-stealing stunts rather than being the work of a ponce with a mandolin, and the bard is the classic swashbuckler.

To be fair, Conan clearly rolled 18's in every stat and is some kind of world-breaking hybrid of homebrewed martial classes.

AtwasAwamps
2010-01-16, 12:44 PM
To be fair, Conan clearly rolled 18's in every stat and is some kind of world-breaking hybrid of homebrewed martial classes.

No, he just cheated.

Aldizog
2010-01-16, 01:08 PM
That said, remove their sappy "induce musical interlude" powers, refluff bardic magic as scene-stealing stunts rather than being the work of a ponce with a mandolin, and the bard is the classic swashbuckler.
Even without refluffling, you could quite well take Perform (Oratory) as the skill, where the Bard uses Inspire Courage by shouting some defiant challenge at the creature of evil. Pretty classic staple of movies, literature, etc.

But for those who want to use music, why not? Why is it any more sappy or silly or "ponce"-y than muttering nonsense syllables and waving your hands? It's just a kind of magic. The bard plays a single chord and power surges through his allies. Works for me.

Kris Strife
2010-01-16, 01:14 PM
To be fair, Conan clearly rolled 18's in every stat and is some kind of world-breaking hybrid of homebrewed martial classes.

Gestalt Barbarian//Warblade with focus on Diamond Mind, Iron Heart and Stone Dragon disciplines?

chiasaur11
2010-01-16, 01:23 PM
Gestalt Barbarian//Warblade with focus on Diamond Mind, Iron Heart and Stone Dragon disciplines?

How do you handle the thieving, then?

Deepblue706
2010-01-16, 01:34 PM
No. NO.

Conan was a level 20 gestalt Fighter/Bonus Feat Rogue in a world where every other character is forced to play by E6 rules.

taltamir
2010-01-16, 01:36 PM
bards are surprisingly powerful...
I don't get why people always rag on them...

Kris Strife
2010-01-16, 01:37 PM
How do you handle the thieving, then?

Able Learner feat to get maxed out ranks in Climb, Jump, Move Silently, Open Lock, Hide, etc.

Zaydos
2010-01-16, 01:39 PM
The best heroes: factotums. You can do some of everything.

Conan: Gestalt Warblade//Feat Rogue

Also real warriors have max ranks in Perform (Oratory), just ask a viking.

Soranar
2010-01-16, 02:22 PM
alright, so many things to comment

actors are rarely gay??? seriously , the ratio between straight and gay is reversed in theater and musicals (1/10)

hollywood actors and singers are often gay too, it's just not good for business when they are (how long did it take people to realize Ricky Martin was gay? and what has he done since?)

Alladin was no bard, he's just a rogue with ranks in Perform and UMD

the best heroes

Chuck, maybe Batman : only Factotum heroes I can think of, sorry but Factotums are rarely heroes but often sidekicks

Barbarian heroes: Conan , Superman (with an ECL +20 race), nearly every guy in the 13th Warrior

Figther: Achilles, Ajax, the 300 , a couple of guys in the 13th warrior, nearly every guy in a war movie

Monk/unarmed swordsage: Jackie Chan, Bruce Lee, sometimes Jean-Claude Van Damne ,Jet Li, Chuck Norris

Paladins: Charlemagne (with lots of Leadership feats), Joan of Arc (with Saint template), Roland, Lancelot (fallen), every other member of the round table

Cleric: that priest that used a mace to go on a crusade (which inspired the class in the first place)

Rogue: nearly every lead in a caper movie

Swashbuckler: cape and sword genre movies, musketeers

Rangers: Rambo (favored ennemy: human), a few war movies leads

Bard: ...?

taltamir
2010-01-16, 02:26 PM
Monk/unarmed swordsage: Jackie Chan, Bruce Lee, sometimes Jean-Claude Van Damne ,Jet Li, Chuck Norris

Those are all monks...
unarmed swordsages can shoot fire from their punches and the like... aka, all the mortal combat guys, street fighter guys, etc...
chun li is an unarmed swordsage, jet li is a monk. And that is debatable because they are not killing people with every punch... most are just fighter WITHOUT the improved unarmed strike feat and a refusal to use a real weapon.

As far as bard being none... why? you seem to say "unarmed fighter is monk"... superman raging I can somehow see as he can throw off cryptonite when angry (improved fort save? aka, increase in con?)...
clerics paladins and rangers all got magic spells, so does bard. If his music isn't magic then what else does the class do? it is a mediocre fighter that travels and tells stories and entertains... they do not have to perform in music, they can dance or drum or whatever.

Most heroes are an amalgam of various classes and cannot be put into any one single class.
superman was an expert (lots of skill points but essentially an NPC class) with an ECL +N race. (N being at least 20, I am thinking easily over 50)...

think about it, nothing he could ever face would be a challenge enough to give him XP; and his "day job" wasn't something amazing like wizard or even soldier (remember wolverine was an actual soldier)... no he went to college, got a degree in liberal arts, and went to work as a news reporter...

Soranar
2010-01-16, 02:33 PM
Those are all monks...
unarmed swordsages can shoot fire from their punches and the like... aka, all the mortal combat guys, street fighter guys, etc...
chun li is an unarmed swordsage, jet li is a monk.

As far as bard being none... why? you seem to say "unarmed fighter is monk"... superman raging I can somehow see...
clerics paladins and rangers all got magic spells, so does bard. If his music isn't magic then what else does the class do? it is a mediocre fighter that travels and tells stories and entertains... they do not have to perform in music, they can dance or drum or whatever.

Most heroes are an amalgam of various classes and cannot be put into any one single class.

all the monk/swordsage I've mentioned have played fists of flame or other magic properties at one point except Chuck Norris and Bruce Lee... you just need to watch more Chinese cinema

while it's true you can't put most heroes in classes sometimes it applies

and if you lack the wisdom you can't cast spells and there are non-spellcasting variants

Xey42
2010-01-16, 02:39 PM
Lets not forget Indiana Jones, who's a pretty awesome factotum

Fail
2010-01-16, 04:57 PM
The Rogue is a character who has a diverse collection of non-magical talents, the ability to seize opportunity in a combat situation, and a knack for coming out alive in deadly situations. In short, the Rogue is just about any protagonist in any story you've ever read. Almost every major character in fantasy media is a rogue. Movies, plays, books, comics, television shows, folklore and puppet shows depict the adventures of rogues to an amazingly unanimous degree. Conan is a rogue. Siegfried is a rogue. Madmartigan is a rogue. Aladdin is a rogue. D'Artagnan is a rogue. Hubert Hawkins is a rogue and the Maid Jean is as well. Goldilocks and Little Red Ridinghood are rogues. Characters who are strong and brawny heroes with big chins and bigger swords are in almost all cases rogues. Characters who wear tight pants and swing a saucy blade and a jaunty smile are in almost all cases rogues. Sultry seductresses are rogues. Hardbitten detectives are rogues.

A rogue's class features allow them to be good at "stuff". They get lots of skills and the ability to use them well. They fare well in combat because sneak attack occurs any time you cooperate with compatriots, any time there's a lucky break to take advantage of, and any time you have snuck up on your enemy. Rogues can get Use Magic Device which really is the skill that you use to activate plot devices, Rogues can get the stealth skills they need to bring the Ring to Mount Doom. Rogues are the "protagonist" class. When you are designing a character you don't have to justify being a Rogue, you have to justify not being a Rogue.

Also: swordsages don't sign contracts forcing them to pick one of the tiny number of Desert Wind/Shadow Hand maneuvers involving non-[kinetic | potential] energy.

Dr_S
2010-01-16, 05:34 PM
I would give whoever said Jack Sparrow that as a bard(at least a couple levels)... his spell choices? Charm person, Know Direction... Maybe he doesn't LOOK like he's casting spells, but c'mon a bard likely practices not only casting spells but casting spells without it being obvious they're casting spells. His perform skill? (Comedy)? I don't know... take weapon finesse and a few points in sleight of hand and I didn't see him do anything beyond the abilities of a bard (and did some things while subtle strongly suggest bardic influence... i.e. inspiring his crew and getting less intelligent enemies to do things for him before later snapping out of it and going "wait what?")

Aladin, while a thief I also think is a bard. Yes the singing, but honestly despite having some roguish qualities, if we're going off of the disney movie he had a lot of "no rogue would ever do that!" qualities. Since bards get such an absurd amount of skill points, things like sleight of hand and such are easily bard type skills (Dex was my second highest stat on mine) Rogues aren't exactly the biggest fans of drawing lots of attention... what does he do soon as he gets a wish to win the princess over? A HUGE PARADE, which he then later has to *bluff* a back story for it.

Now squall is the anti-bard... that man managed to make friends DESPITE his charisma score, not because of it.

Foryn Gilnith
2010-01-16, 05:41 PM
You always get the wine, women, song.

So the important part of the bard class can be replicated with (maybe) a feat, 1 skill point/level, and magic item buffs? Good to know.


Actually, bards are terrible heroes. They're just the only ones who can make up their own publicity for it.

This. Bards, much like kobolds, are mechanically weak but given plot power. Bards, in most settings, have an inexplicable power to sway public opinion, disproportionate to their actual organization or skill level.

HINT: I dislike bards. >_<


Also: swordsages don't sign contracts forcing them to pick one of the tiny number of Desert Wind/Shadow Hand maneuvers involving non-[kinetic | potential] energy.

This should be repeated over 9000 times.


Rogues aren't exactly the biggest fans of drawing lots of attention...
This has no basis in mechanics. And if we're going off the written PHB fluff, Aladdin simply isn't a bard, in large part due to the semi-Arab culture. Rogues have Bluff as a class skill, too. Aladdin could even be an Expert for all we know.
But I'd have to second your opinion on Jack Sparrow. Excellent example of how the bard class can support many types of character.

Temotei
2010-01-16, 05:51 PM
I disagree. The best Heroes are Factotums.

Yes. :smallcool:

Not in core, unfortunately. If they were, no one would pick the poor bard, unless they wanted to sing like a special (by special, I mean really good) person. :smallsmile:

I was the one who suggested Jack might be a bard.

Dr_S
2010-01-16, 06:05 PM
It's been a long while since I've actually seen Aladdin so I guess it would be harder to come up with firm examples but I can sort of see either way.

Maybe he's a Bard/Rogue? When I played a bard, with my skill selection I could have passed as a rogue if I needed to (perform: Oratory too so no instrument)

Youtube clips make me think Bard though.

Dr_S
2010-01-16, 06:09 PM
I was the one who suggested Jack might be a bard.
Then you were the one I agreed with :P

Fail
2010-01-16, 06:16 PM
Rogues are whatever they want: they even have every single relevant resource to drawing the spotlight. That said, being Arabian doesn't preclude having a ridiculously rich musical/poetic tradition - in fact, the historical sha'ir is a poet. As for Sparrow: no spells, and nothing a rogue couldn't be doing - if there's any class that competes with rogue for him, it's ranger, and that's only for those who treat BAB as worth anything.

Draz74
2010-01-16, 06:41 PM
Chuck, maybe Batman : only Factotum heroes I can think of, sorry but Factotums are rarely heroes but often sidekicks

Seen the new Sherlock Holmes movie? Best ever example of a Factotum (though admittedly, a variant that gains Maneuvers (mostly Setting Sun) instead of Spells with its Dilettante abilities).

I'd also stat Jack Sparrow as a Factotum, to start out. Factotum/Swashbuckler/Fortune's Friend/Uncanny Trickster, to be exact.

Aldizog
2010-01-16, 06:57 PM
I'd also stat Jack Sparrow as a Factotum, to start out. Factotum/Swashbuckler/Fortune's Friend/Uncanny Trickster, to be exact.
No levels of Dread Pirate?
He does seem to be able to Inspire Courage in his crew; they tend to do better when he's in command, and it does come across as a morale boost.

Dr_S
2010-01-16, 07:06 PM
He does seem to be able to Inspire Courage in his crew; they tend to do better when he's in command, and it does come across as a morale boost.

That's most of where my argument was based.
Maybe it's just the way I RP'd my bard but I could think he MAY be capable of casting spells that just aren't recognized as spells to us normal people.

I'm not entirely convinced he didn't have "know direction" especially since he didn't seem to have a working compass, yeah maybe it pointed at something he was chasing but it spent an awful lot of time spinning wildly.

tieto
2010-01-16, 07:10 PM
Actually, bards are terrible heroes. They're just the only ones who can make up their own publicity for it.

Think about it. How do the tales of the heroes' epic deeds get spread around? Bards! Who writes the songs of valor in the face of impending doom? Bards! Even the 'magical effects' of their music can be easily explained! Who here hasn't become excited or had goosebumps from an awesome/moving song. Extra accuracy and jumping ability? Just your standard adrenline rush. Enemies have negative effects? Sad, slow music that leaves you feeling depressed and drained.

Seriously, why share the credit with the rest of your party, when you can take it all for yourself and look like the greatest hero ever? Why admit all you did was play an inspiring or depressing song, when you can say you have 'magical music powers'? And as for the few spells they can cast? They're just weak sorcerers who don't have the amount of power as others.

It's better to help the good and poor than to hurt the evil and rich because you get more respect if you are a kind soul than good at hurting thing (emotionally or physically)

Aldizog
2010-01-16, 07:19 PM
That's most of where my argument was based.
Maybe it's just the way I RP'd my bard but I could think he MAY be capable of casting spells that just aren't recognized as spells to us normal people.

I'm not entirely convinced he didn't have "know direction" especially since he didn't seem to have a working compass, yeah maybe it pointed at something he was chasing but it spent an awful lot of time spinning wildly.
Yeah, I'm definitely with you there. I think a lot of people on this thread are being too literal about it.

The bard as the model for a fantasy story protagonist can fight reasonably well, use a large variety of skills, inspire the others around him to excel, and pull out a large variety of tricks, which happen to be mechanically implemented as spells. There are many bard spells that are (or could be) subtle enough you could just consider them "special abilities that a hero happens to be able to use a few times per day." A bard with Cat's Grace can become very agile for a few minutes; an action movie hero can walk that tightrope when they absolutely have to. Does the actual act of casting a spell "on-screen" make all the difference? I don't think so.

rockdeworld
2010-01-16, 07:55 PM
http://www.vain.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/cookie.jpg
To Aldizog for getting my whole point. Is there a smaller image I can use?

And everyone else who did too (I can't remember you all atm :smallbiggrin:)

Foryn Gilnith
2010-01-16, 08:03 PM
Disclaimer: I dislike bards.


(and did some things while subtle strongly suggest bardic influence... i.e. inspiring his crew and getting less intelligent enemies to do things for him before later snapping out of it and going "wait what?")
I feel this section bears repeating. "Charm Person" could be plain Diplomacy. "Know Direction" could be plain Survival. "Perform (Comedy)" could be a rogue class skill. But when Jack Sparrow inspires his crew, or uses Suggestion-type effects on people, he's either using Bard levels or an obscure prestige class.


That's most of where my argument was based.
Maybe it's just the way I RP'd my bard but I could think he MAY be capable of casting spells that just aren't recognized as spells to us normal people.

Use Sleight of Hand. A successful check with that skill makes your spells undetectable. And Jack Sparrow could easily have enough Sleight of Hand to fool everyone in the audience.


And don't let that first possibility fool you - how many happy groups of wandering adventurers would ever come together in the first place if it weren't for a charismatic leader to guide them like the bard?
Some of my characters would shun stereotypical bards on principle. Not many, obviously. But more than would be attracted to an adventuring group solely because of a bard's personality. Sorcerers, paladins, clerics, marshals... all have just as much charisma without the inordinate focus on heroics.


but fluffwise remember how he is the one who guides the group, who everyone looks to when their home and sense of purpose has crumbled away, and who eventually does save the girl he loves and then the world along with it - and looking cool while doing it.
That's not a bard. That's a Charisma score.


Say what you will about bards - they can't hit as hard as a fighter, they can't cast spells as good as any full-casting class, they can't fully utilize a ton of useful skills like the rogue, but don't knock the bard class, because all the best heroes are bards.

Bards can hit as hard as a fighter (Snowflake Wardance), cast as well as a full-casting class (Sublime Chord), fully utilize a ton of useful skills (Improvisation + Bardic Knack). This doesn't make them the best heroes (see last quote/response for my actual argument)


That said, being Arabian doesn't preclude having a ridiculously rich musical/poetic tradition - in fact, the historical sha'ir is a poet.

A rich musical/poetic tradition does not make a bard. To be a bard, as distinguished from "somebody with max ranks in Perform", you need to either fit the IC bardic archetype or have most of your OOC levels be in bard.
IC, the bardic archetype is as follows: "Wandering across the land, gathering lore, telling stories, working magic with his music, and living on the gratitude of his audience". Aladdin does not fit that archetype. A sha'ir might; upon researching them more, I found that they uncannily matched the PHB description of a bard.
OOC, Aladdin may have most of his levels in Bard. However, there is nothing to particularly suggest that. He could be a Rogue or a Factotum or an Expert just as easily.


Yeah, I'm definitely with you there. I think a lot of people on this thread are being too literal about it.


And the pro-bard camp is being too abstract about it. Could a bard emulate Action Hero N? Yes. So could a rogue, an expert, a spellthief, a ninja, a swordsage, a beguiler, or anything with Able Learner and a Factotum dip. The bard's ability to mimic something does not make it so that the best heroes are bards. It simply means that the best heroes can be adequately represented by using one or more levels of the bard class.

Bards make good heroes. Bards may even make some of the best heroes, although I doubt it. Bards are not all the best heroes.

Fail
2010-01-16, 09:55 PM
A rich musical/poetic tradition does not make a bard. To be a bard, as distinguished from "somebody with max ranks in Perform", you need to either fit the IC bardic archetype or have most of your OOC levels be in bard.
IC, the bardic archetype is as follows: "Wandering across the land, gathering lore, telling stories, working magic with his music, and living on the gratitude of his audience". Aladdin does not fit that archetype. A sha'ir might; upon researching them more, I found that they uncannily matched the PHB description of a bard.
OOC, Aladdin may have most of his levels in Bard. However, there is nothing to particularly suggest that. He could be a Rogue or a Factotum or an Expert just as easily.The sentence you quoted wasn't about Aladdin, only about "Arabian" and "bard" not being mutually exclusive; I don't think any of the characters mentioned is a bard. And pretty much every one of them seems to be a rogue, as per the quote in my first post. On leadership: it exists, and has observable effects, IRL. Therefore, it should be a function of skills, and Heroes of Battle does put it in the skill department. Skills that, of course, Sparrow could have as a rogue. :D

As for factotum (for characters in general, not just Sparrow): it only fails, and even then only slightly, due to spellcasting times, and the impossibility to conceal spellcasting without some very specific options (such as lowering spell level by 2, or only 1/encounter), but it's a way better match than bard.

Foryn Gilnith
2010-01-16, 10:05 PM
The sentence you quoted wasn't about Aladdin, only about "Arabian" and "bard" not being mutually exclusive

I wasn't responding to your point so much as I was using it as a jumping-off point for my own ramblings. Sorry for making that unclear. >_<

Optimystik
2010-01-16, 10:19 PM
Yeah, I'm definitely with you there. I think a lot of people on this thread are being too literal about it.

The bard as the model for a fantasy story protagonist can fight reasonably well, use a large variety of skills, inspire the others around him to excel, and pull out a large variety of tricks, which happen to be mechanically implemented as spells. There are many bard spells that are (or could be) subtle enough you could just consider them "special abilities that a hero happens to be able to use a few times per day." A bard with Cat's Grace can become very agile for a few minutes; an action movie hero can walk that tightrope when they absolutely have to. Does the actual act of casting a spell "on-screen" make all the difference? I don't think so.

It sort of does when the enemy cleric can point at you and make you fall off that tightrope. You may want to fluff magic as other things, but it still has to follow the rules of magic.

Also, a bard who wants to be stealthy (as action heroes often do) has to jump through hoops to use his tricks, as they generally involve vocalizing.

taltamir
2010-01-16, 10:20 PM
can't you have "perform: lewd dance"? as your bardic perform skill? and thus not need to vocalize?

Foryn Gilnith
2010-01-16, 10:23 PM
Every bard spell has a verbal component (singing, reciting, or music).

Silent Spell [Metamagic]
...
Special: Bard spells cannot be enhanced by this metamagic feat.

Il y a une problem.

Soranar
2010-01-16, 10:41 PM
yay I finally remembered an actual Bard

Thom Merrilin from the Wheel of time is as bardic as they get

not exactly a main character though but he could be (does killing a king for the hell of it qualify?)

Aldizog
2010-01-16, 10:53 PM
It sort of does when the enemy cleric can point at you and make you fall off that tightrope. You may want to fluff magic as other things, but it still has to follow the rules of magic.
I still think you're being too literal. The bard can, through some of his class abilities (spells), do some incredible things. Feats of great agility, pulling the perfect bluff, making enemies miss him in combat, and so on. A careful selection of bard spells can make one who does the amazing things that heroes do, while still seeming subtle enough that their outcome could be attributable to skill rather than magic. So he has to mutter under his breath a bit to pull off his awesomeness -- big deal. That isn't a major problem in my conception of the scene. Bard saying a quick prayer and shaking his hands loose before attempting the tightrope (or whatever) doesn't make it "Oh, well, that can't be right, the heroes I imagine don't use magic." At least for me.

What does it matter to me that the precise mechanic for an enemy to interfere with the bard's awesomeness is Effect A (Dispel Magic against a bard with Cat's Grace) rather than Effect B (Doom, Hexblade's Curse, whatever)? The rules of magic are technicalities that are important for game balance but don't have to dictate flavor. They can be considered almost meaningless in terms of "this class emulates this archetype." The fact that fictional heroes aren't seen visibly using magic doesn't mean that PCs that do use magic are a bad way of emulating them; magic is just a way of allowing a PC to do incredible things.

Foryn Gilnith
2010-01-16, 10:57 PM
magic is just a way of allowing a PC to do incredible things.

It's not necessarily the best way of doing incredible things. All you're proving is that "all the best heroes" might be Bards. This is a far cry from proving that they are, which is the original claim.

Aldizog
2010-01-16, 11:33 PM
It's not necessarily the best way of doing incredible things. All you're proving is that "all the best heroes" might be Bards. This is a far cry from proving that they are, which is the original claim.
I don't exactly agree with the original claim, but I do think "the abilities of the bard class are very good for representing many kinds of fictional heroes, including many who do not fit the traditional bard image or PHB description."

I've never been in a campaign that used factotums, but for Core classes, the bard is certainly a strong contender for a build inspired by any of a number of fictional heroes. Rogue and ranger have their strengths but I don't see them as clearly better. Non-core, the swashbuckler and scout are probably also up there... the fictional heroes I'm interested in tend to get by on their skills, cleverness, and luck rather than just overpowering everything in their way, so I suppose I'm usually thinking of scoundrel types. But bards usually have higher Cha than rogues, rangers, swashbucklers, or scouts. The high Cha and the Inspire X abilities, IMO, give them a slight edge in matching the fictional heroes I usually have in mind.

I do love the bard class, but I'm not going to say that "all the best heroes" are bards... I do have favorites that really can't remotely be modeled by that set of abilities. Conan? Not a bard. Aeryn Sun? Not a bard. Indiana Jones? Jack Sparrow? Yeah, I'd make a bard based on either of those.

Hida Reju
2010-01-16, 11:42 PM
Well you could say many action heroes are part Bard IE Gestalted with bard on one side.

Draz74
2010-01-17, 12:11 AM
No levels of Dread Pirate?
Not really his style. In spite of being a captain, he's too much of a loner at heart. Barbossa, by contrast, is a great candidate for Dread Pirate.


He does seem to be able to Inspire Courage in his crew; they tend to do better when he's in command, and it does come across as a morale boost.

I don't remember that being a strong point in the movies. On the contrary, he seems to have a remarkable number of problems with his crew compared to other captains.

But he certainly has a very high Charisma score. If there are specific instances of him totally inspiring his crew, they can probably be explained just by that and possibly the Leadership feat. (Gibbs is totally a cohort!)

Optimystik
2010-01-17, 12:25 AM
I still think you're being too literal. The bard can, through some of his class abilities (spells), do some incredible things. Feats of great agility, pulling the perfect bluff, making enemies miss him in combat, and so on. A careful selection of bard spells can make one who does the amazing things that heroes do, while still seeming subtle enough that their outcome could be attributable to skill rather than magic. So he has to mutter under his breath a bit to pull off his awesomeness -- big deal. That isn't a major problem in my conception of the scene. Bard saying a quick prayer and shaking his hands loose before attempting the tightrope (or whatever) doesn't make it "Oh, well, that can't be right, the heroes I imagine don't use magic." At least for me.

First off, you can't "mutter under your breath." Observe:


Verbal (V)

A verbal component is a spoken incantation. To provide a verbal component, you must be able to speak in a strong voice.

There are ways to conceal your (rhyming) arcane gobbledygook, but bards actually have to spend feats/skill tricks/multiclass to acquire them - it's not something you can fluff away and still be following the rules.

Second, there are ways to tell what he's doing. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/spellcraft.htm) And stop it from happening. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/castingSpells.htm#counterspells) You can't do that with innate skill.


What does it matter to me that the precise mechanic for an enemy to interfere with the bard's awesomeness is Effect A (Dispel Magic against a bard with Cat's Grace) rather than Effect B (Doom, Hexblade's Curse, whatever)? The rules of magic are technicalities that are important for game balance but don't have to dictate flavor. They can be considered almost meaningless in terms of "this class emulates this archetype." The fact that fictional heroes aren't seen visibly using magic doesn't mean that PCs that do use magic are a bad way of emulating them; magic is just a way of allowing a PC to do incredible things.

It matters because one is far more common than the other. How many ways are there to interfere with magic, and how many ways are there to interfere with innate skill? The former is more numerous than the latter for a reason - balance. Your bard is a lot easier to muck up if he's relying on magic rather than his own natural (or Ex) talents.

Aldizog
2010-01-17, 12:44 AM
First off, you can't "mutter under your breath." Observe:

Again, you're arguing rules technicalities when that is completely not what I'm talking about. I am talking about imagination. Maybe the bard "casting" Feather Fall is merely shouting "Oh ****" and just happening to find the right things to break his fall and land unharmed. Common action movie sequence. The bard "casting" Cat's Grace is turning to his companions and saying "Watch this." The bard "casting" Blur is really just taunting his opponents, followed by 1 minute/level of ducking, dodging, and whirling his cloak so they miss him. Sure, there are some corner cases where it might possibly make a slight technical difference if you use the spell exactly as written or as the player wants to interpret it. But the point is that I can readily accept spellcasting as just "doing incredible things" and the fact that it is nominally magic doesn't interfere with my ability to envision it that way. As a player, I can envision my character doing things this way, and as a DM, I can certainly allow a player to run with that description if that's what they want.

I could even play a bard who has no idea he's casting spells. It just takes a minimal amount of imagination from the DM to say "Okay, sure, he isn't speaking any arcane language, he's just psyching himself up." Would the DM really care if my bard's Feather Fall was not a spell but a (Sp), (Su), or (Ex) ability? There are a few cases where it matters, but in general, over the course of a campaign, if the player isn't seeking to abuse this, is there any reason to say "No, you cannot do that, magic has to be obviously magic and has to be exactly as it says in the rules"?
Edit: another thought I've had along these lines; is there any reason why a sorcadin (something like Sor1/PalX) cannot actually believe that he is simply a paladin through-and-through, and that his "Prayer of True Striking" and "Prayer of Safe Landing" are granted by Heironeous? Any reason why a DM who trusts this player would have to insist "No, those are arcane spells"?

Some heroes were disqualified as being bards because they were never seen casting spells; I think that's being too literal.

Dr_S
2010-01-17, 01:22 AM
It's not necessarily the best way of doing incredible things. All you're proving is that "all the best heroes" might be Bards. This is a far cry from proving that they are, which is the original claim.

As one of the people saying that Captain Jack could be a bard I would like to say that I specifically tried to make it clear that I DIDN'T agree that every hero was a bard in my first post...

Because of the sheer number of skill points both get, it really does make sense that all the ones we ARE arguing about could go either way... (I also have never played with a factotum so *shrug*) in fact aside from disabling traps, sneak attacks and the dodging thing there is very little in my mind that would necessarily distinguish a rogue from a bard. (Not saying they're the same, but the difference in skill points isn't really that big)

I was trying to think of a better example, but I'm blanking at the moment.

Aldizog
2010-01-17, 01:31 AM
I was trying to think of a better example, but I'm blanking at the moment.
When you go non-Core with the Marshal, you have another character who makes those around him better. Core, Bard is the main one, unless you are comfortable refluffing the spells that have a similar effect (but even then bard still remains the best choice). So bard is your go-to guy for "Inspirational Leader," be it William Wallace, Captain America, or Henry V. Probably many more as well. And in Core, Bard, Rogue, and Monk are the classes with Tumble and Balance as class skills, so any agile adventurer is best represented by one of those.

Roderick_BR
2010-01-17, 02:36 AM
I disagree. The best Heroes are Factotums.
Link from Legend of Zelda certainly is one.

Optimystik
2010-01-17, 03:29 AM
Again, you're arguing rules technicalities when that is completely not what I'm talking about.

I do know what you're talking about. You're pointing out, rightfully, that spellcasting can be fluffed any way you please.

My point is that fluff only goes so far; it does not extend to mechanical changes. A bard pulling off superhuman exploits without magic is a mechanical change to the class. Whispering a spell so that nobody can hear him cast it is also a mechanical change, because he has to speak loudly by RAW to cast a spell. This is a balancing factor of spellcasting - no matter what your character thinks he's doing, it's very hard for him to conceal it from others without the necessary feats/skill tricks.

To quote Roy's grandfather - "It don't mean a thing if you ain't paid for that swing." You can fluff right up to the point where doing so would circumvent feats and class features - unless of course, you can convince your DM to waive those barriers for the sake of your story.

Foryn Gilnith
2010-01-17, 08:39 AM
I don't exactly agree with the original claimbut I do think "the abilities of the bard class are very good for representing many kinds of fictional heroes, including many who do not fit the traditional bard image or PHB description."
Oh, ok. This makes more sense now. Yeah, the bard is pretty adaptable, especially when you add skill tricks, splatbooks, and refluffing. I still prefer multiclass builds for most concepts.

Swashbuckler, given its horrendous skill points, is really not something I'd call appropriate for emulating a large variety of heroes. A few, yes... but I'd choose Factotum 1/Barbarian 19 over Swashbuckler 20 any day.


First off, you can't "mutter under your breath."

...

There are ways to conceal your (rhyming) arcane gobbledygook, but bards actually have to spend feats/skill tricks/multiclass to acquire them - it's not something you can fluff away and still be following the rules.

As part of casting a spell, you can make a Sleight of Hand check to make your verbal and somatic components less obtrusive, muttering magic words under your breath and making magic gestures surreptitiously. Your Sleight of Hand check is opposed by any observer’s Spot check. The observer’s success doesn’t prevent you from casting the spell, but it keeps you from doing it unnoticed.

So...yeah.


It matters because one is far more common than the other. How many ways are there to interfere with magic, and how many ways are there to interfere with innate skill?
As far as action movies are concerned? No, not really. If Jack Sparrow is one of the only "spellcasters" in the movie, and nobody else casts Dispel Magic, they're about equal. The only person who would cast Dispel Magic on Jack is some sort of tribal shaman, in which case the result would be functionally identical to a curse granting -4 Dex.

Of course, this is stretching things more than a bit, but it's possible.

Aldizog
2010-01-17, 11:04 AM
Whispering a spell so that nobody can hear him cast it is also a mechanical change, because he has to speak loudly by RAW to cast a spell.
I wasn't suggesting "muttering under his breath" to gain the mechanical advantage of "nobody can hear him cast it," but rather because that's sometimes what you see movie/TV heroes do before they do something stupid and heroic. "Here we go again" being the "verbal component" for an Improvisation-type effect in which they are outrageously lucky for a few minutes. But speaking audibly, to the companions or the adversaries, is just as common.

It doesn't really matter to me if he has to speak loudly or mutter, since either one can work with the visual I have in mind, and the visuals are the point. Yeah, there's a tiny mechanical advantage to disguising the kind of effects I have in mind, but nobody ever counterspells Improvisation. On the buffs and debuffs I have in mind, the distinction between magic and mundane is not so critical; I'm not thinking Fireball or Dominate Person.

Actually, it occurs to me that I'm arguing for a 4E mentality, which I never do. One of my problems with 4E is that it makes magic too much like what everybody else can do, and that's not what I want if I'm playing a character who's all about bending reality to his will. But it would be what I want for Action Hero Bard; it doesn't greatly matter if he trips the bad guys by causing sonic vibrations or by knocking over a stack of barrels, the point is that a couple of times per day he gets targets in a 30' cone to make Ref saves or fall down. Why can knocking over the barrels be rationalized as limited to a couple of times per day? Because that's how often the player has the narrative control to say "You know what? There's going to be a stack of barrels there."

One possible list I might use for Action Hero Bard at level 8:
Daze (fast-talking, dirt in the eyes, whatever), Know Direction, Resistance, Minor Disguise, Songbird, 1 other (Mending, maybe?)
Expeditious Retreat, Feather Fall, Improvisation, and Accelerated Movement
Cat's Grace, Daze Monster, Mindless Rage, Lesser Celerity (Immediate move action to escape the explosion, then dazed for a round, sounds about right)
Glibness, Unluck, and maybe Dolorous Blow

Foryn Gilnith
2010-01-17, 01:53 PM
Actually, it occurs to me that I'm arguing for a 4E mentality, which I never do.
I'd hesitate to describe this as a "4E mentality". Gives the edition too much credit.


a player, I can envision my character doing things this way, and as a DM, I can certainly allow a player to run with that description if that's what they want.

The problem about this sort of approach is that it makes discussion difficult. So the DM fluffs the bard to work better with the group. The result is good. However, why is the result good? Is the result good because the bard is a good class, or because the DM is a good DM? IMO it is almost assuredly the latter. A good DM can make almost anything work - but that doesn't mean almost everything is good.

The bard class should be examined on its own merits. One of those merits might be "easy for the DM to refluff", but the ability of the DM to refluff shouldn't really enter into the equation. If we're going that way, DM could just refluff the rogue to do all the stuff these "bards" do.