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View Full Version : [3.x]Maybe I'm just easy to rankle...



TaintedLight
2010-01-16, 02:48 AM
I've been thinking about epic levels quite a bit recently and some of my biggest annoyances with the system have begun to resurface in my mind as a result. From epic spellcasting to poorly estimated CRs for epic monsters, there are a few things in epic levels which just seem inherently broken to me and I was wondering how other playgrounders felt about this.

To preface the discussion, I am not an optimizer of any kind. I build characters who can do a job well, not crack the limits of reality in half. No Genesis platinum-plane cheese, no chain-Gating solars for epic magic, none of that stupid crap. No Hulking Hurler nonsense, no Locate City Bombs, no broken spells like Celerity, either. I want to know what you guys think about epic levels from the perspective of a 21st-30th level character who has made feat, class feature, skill, ability adjustment, and other character advancment choices wisely instead of with the express intent of breaking the CR system over their knees.

Now that that has been said, the points of order:

1) Epic Spellcasting

This is probably my biggest complaint and I feel like many other people agree with this particular gripe. Epic spellcasting is a system that tries to do something very desirable in a game like D&D (that is, offering players a multitude of menu options to customize their gaming experience) while at the same time suffering from a number of abuses and systematic failures. While no sane DM would ever allow a character to summon umpty-ump epic spellcasters to contribute spell slots for 100 days and 10 minutes, the fact that you can do that shows a serious lack of thought on the part of WOTC. It is concievable that a game state could arise where a character develops incrementally more powerful epic spells to boost his power permanently for a grand total DC of 0, meaning he spent no time, gold, nor XP to do it. He just wasted a whole lot of time casting the thing.

The above situation is admittedly unrealistic. What bothers me is that you can do that and equally stupid things with a minimum of real thought put into the process. I remember reading a thread here once about animating an entire planet and the final DC of the spell was well within reasonable limits down from an initial DC which was at least twelve orders of magnitude beyond the end product. This is simply ludicrous. I acknowledge that D&D is a fantasy game, meaning that realism is somewhat relative, but there comes a point (even at the height of power/epic levels) where fantasy turns into flat out abuse of the point.

Thoughts?

2) Epic Monsters

I hate these things. Every third monster is loaded with SoD's and/or ability drain that leaves you permanently crippled (or as "permanently" as ability drain can be at epic levels). Yes, Wish, Miracle, and Restoration can make it all better, but what about the idea of being "permanently" weakened makes these monsters interesting or fun? A party of 22nd level characters comes away from a fight with a Thorciasid with a whole lot of physical ability drain if they don't keep their distance the whole time. Fun times, now I can't move anymore.

The other thing that bugs me is the fact that it's a rare monster that will fail any kind of saving throw the players want to force. Perhaps this is just my experience of the game speaking, but at 28th level the save DCs for 9th level spells my sorcerer is forcing are in the neighborhood of DC 30 or so. When the leShay's lowest save modifier is close to that high, how am I ever supposed to force them to feel an effect? Likewise, the save DCs presented for monster special abilities have a tendency to be ludicrously high for characters at that ECL. I can only wonder how anyone is expected to make a DC 49 save against a Prismasaurus with any regularity (50ish%) at 26-28th level or a DC 83 Fort save vs the poison of a Devastation Centipede in the high 30s. Again, perhaps I've just been looking at it wrong, but this seems really silly to me.

Thoughts?

Shpadoinkle
2010-01-16, 03:08 AM
Thoughts?

Epic is getting into the domain of the gods and godlike creatures.

3.x wasn't designed to handle this kind of thing, so they had to pretty much make stuff up as they went along.

Hence, epic is all wonky and stupid.

Zincorium
2010-01-16, 04:33 AM
When I want to play characters that can break mountains in half and fire 300 arrows in the span of a few seconds, I break out Exalted. A game can only optimize itself for a certain power range, anything outside of this focus is going to be less entertaining.

Kelb_Panthera
2010-01-16, 10:22 AM
Unfortunately the D&D system begins to break down around level 17+ The disparity between the numbers just reaches a breaking point, and spells of 9th level cause enough problems that taking things any further is just asking for trouble.

Thrawn183
2010-01-16, 10:27 AM
At that point I'd start stacking magic items. Since you have the cash, you can combine the magic amulet that makes you immune to poisons onto whatever you normally put into your neck slot.

At a certain point, just try and find how many things you can become immune to simultaneously. Energy types, negative energy, and poisons shouldn't be too hard.

TheCountAlucard
2010-01-16, 04:16 PM
When I want to play characters that can break mountains in half and fire 300 arrows in the span of a few seconds, I break out Exalted. A game can only optimize itself for a certain power range, anything outside of this focus is going to be less entertaining.+1. Heck, D&D starts to fall apart long before epic levels.

Flickerdart
2010-01-16, 04:26 PM
You have no excuse if you're vulnerable to poison or ability drain by level 30. Epic is a high-stakes game and you have to protect yourself from the rocket launchers as soon as you can, or else grab some rocket launchers of your own.

Also, it's awfully thought out and broken, yes. But the monsters are the least of that problem.

Sinfire Titan
2010-01-16, 04:31 PM
Unfortunately the D&D system begins to break down around level 17+ The disparity between the numbers just reaches a breaking point, and spells of 9th level cause enough problems that taking things any further is just asking for trouble.

It isn't even the numbers, it's the sheer options you have at your hands. If the numbers where the problem it would be easy to fix high level campaigns.

hamishspence
2010-01-16, 05:04 PM
I hate these things. Every third monster is loaded with SoD's and/or ability drain that leaves you permanently crippled (or as "permanently" as ability drain can be at epic levels).


Its a bit odd, that the winterwight and Shadow of the Void are set up as "cold counterparts" to the lavawight and Shape Of Fire, but the fire ones have much nastier "hit point drain" that cannot be restored in any way, whereas the cold ones, have only ability drain, which can be restored.

(it doesn't have the "cannot be restored by any means- they are gone for good" trait that the fire ones do).

Tyndmyr
2010-01-16, 05:18 PM
You have no excuse if you're vulnerable to poison or ability drain by level 30. Epic is a high-stakes game and you have to protect yourself from the rocket launchers as soon as you can, or else grab some rocket launchers of your own.

Also, it's awfully thought out and broken, yes. But the monsters are the least of that problem.

Pretty much. Thats my biggest beef with epic...I don't mind that it's at a crazy power level, or that optimization is expected...but it's really, really punishing on anyone who didn't abuse immunities, since nothing else is really all that important then.

Also, epic spellcasting. The problem is either that you abuse it with follower mitigation cheese, in which case, you break the world in half, or it's pretty useless. Seriously, look at it...Even if you dump another valuable epic feat at it, in the form of epic skill focus: Spellcraft, it's pretty hard to make anything that's actually useful in combat. Pumping feats into more spell slots is generally vastly more useful, allowing you to bust out heavily metamagiced 9th level spells, which are insane.

Rixx
2010-01-16, 05:42 PM
This is why I prefer E6.

FlamingKobold
2010-01-16, 06:12 PM
This is why I prefer E6.

+1. I almost always do E6 or low magic, to avoid all of these problems. No magic campaigns are brutal at epic levels...

Tequila Sunrise
2010-01-16, 06:44 PM
These are two of the biggest reasons why the ELH is #2 on 3e's List of Least Used Splat Books. (#1 being Deities and Demigods.) I wrote an epic revamp at one point that I never got to try...