TaintedLight
2010-01-16, 02:48 AM
I've been thinking about epic levels quite a bit recently and some of my biggest annoyances with the system have begun to resurface in my mind as a result. From epic spellcasting to poorly estimated CRs for epic monsters, there are a few things in epic levels which just seem inherently broken to me and I was wondering how other playgrounders felt about this.
To preface the discussion, I am not an optimizer of any kind. I build characters who can do a job well, not crack the limits of reality in half. No Genesis platinum-plane cheese, no chain-Gating solars for epic magic, none of that stupid crap. No Hulking Hurler nonsense, no Locate City Bombs, no broken spells like Celerity, either. I want to know what you guys think about epic levels from the perspective of a 21st-30th level character who has made feat, class feature, skill, ability adjustment, and other character advancment choices wisely instead of with the express intent of breaking the CR system over their knees.
Now that that has been said, the points of order:
1) Epic Spellcasting
This is probably my biggest complaint and I feel like many other people agree with this particular gripe. Epic spellcasting is a system that tries to do something very desirable in a game like D&D (that is, offering players a multitude of menu options to customize their gaming experience) while at the same time suffering from a number of abuses and systematic failures. While no sane DM would ever allow a character to summon umpty-ump epic spellcasters to contribute spell slots for 100 days and 10 minutes, the fact that you can do that shows a serious lack of thought on the part of WOTC. It is concievable that a game state could arise where a character develops incrementally more powerful epic spells to boost his power permanently for a grand total DC of 0, meaning he spent no time, gold, nor XP to do it. He just wasted a whole lot of time casting the thing.
The above situation is admittedly unrealistic. What bothers me is that you can do that and equally stupid things with a minimum of real thought put into the process. I remember reading a thread here once about animating an entire planet and the final DC of the spell was well within reasonable limits down from an initial DC which was at least twelve orders of magnitude beyond the end product. This is simply ludicrous. I acknowledge that D&D is a fantasy game, meaning that realism is somewhat relative, but there comes a point (even at the height of power/epic levels) where fantasy turns into flat out abuse of the point.
Thoughts?
2) Epic Monsters
I hate these things. Every third monster is loaded with SoD's and/or ability drain that leaves you permanently crippled (or as "permanently" as ability drain can be at epic levels). Yes, Wish, Miracle, and Restoration can make it all better, but what about the idea of being "permanently" weakened makes these monsters interesting or fun? A party of 22nd level characters comes away from a fight with a Thorciasid with a whole lot of physical ability drain if they don't keep their distance the whole time. Fun times, now I can't move anymore.
The other thing that bugs me is the fact that it's a rare monster that will fail any kind of saving throw the players want to force. Perhaps this is just my experience of the game speaking, but at 28th level the save DCs for 9th level spells my sorcerer is forcing are in the neighborhood of DC 30 or so. When the leShay's lowest save modifier is close to that high, how am I ever supposed to force them to feel an effect? Likewise, the save DCs presented for monster special abilities have a tendency to be ludicrously high for characters at that ECL. I can only wonder how anyone is expected to make a DC 49 save against a Prismasaurus with any regularity (50ish%) at 26-28th level or a DC 83 Fort save vs the poison of a Devastation Centipede in the high 30s. Again, perhaps I've just been looking at it wrong, but this seems really silly to me.
Thoughts?
To preface the discussion, I am not an optimizer of any kind. I build characters who can do a job well, not crack the limits of reality in half. No Genesis platinum-plane cheese, no chain-Gating solars for epic magic, none of that stupid crap. No Hulking Hurler nonsense, no Locate City Bombs, no broken spells like Celerity, either. I want to know what you guys think about epic levels from the perspective of a 21st-30th level character who has made feat, class feature, skill, ability adjustment, and other character advancment choices wisely instead of with the express intent of breaking the CR system over their knees.
Now that that has been said, the points of order:
1) Epic Spellcasting
This is probably my biggest complaint and I feel like many other people agree with this particular gripe. Epic spellcasting is a system that tries to do something very desirable in a game like D&D (that is, offering players a multitude of menu options to customize their gaming experience) while at the same time suffering from a number of abuses and systematic failures. While no sane DM would ever allow a character to summon umpty-ump epic spellcasters to contribute spell slots for 100 days and 10 minutes, the fact that you can do that shows a serious lack of thought on the part of WOTC. It is concievable that a game state could arise where a character develops incrementally more powerful epic spells to boost his power permanently for a grand total DC of 0, meaning he spent no time, gold, nor XP to do it. He just wasted a whole lot of time casting the thing.
The above situation is admittedly unrealistic. What bothers me is that you can do that and equally stupid things with a minimum of real thought put into the process. I remember reading a thread here once about animating an entire planet and the final DC of the spell was well within reasonable limits down from an initial DC which was at least twelve orders of magnitude beyond the end product. This is simply ludicrous. I acknowledge that D&D is a fantasy game, meaning that realism is somewhat relative, but there comes a point (even at the height of power/epic levels) where fantasy turns into flat out abuse of the point.
Thoughts?
2) Epic Monsters
I hate these things. Every third monster is loaded with SoD's and/or ability drain that leaves you permanently crippled (or as "permanently" as ability drain can be at epic levels). Yes, Wish, Miracle, and Restoration can make it all better, but what about the idea of being "permanently" weakened makes these monsters interesting or fun? A party of 22nd level characters comes away from a fight with a Thorciasid with a whole lot of physical ability drain if they don't keep their distance the whole time. Fun times, now I can't move anymore.
The other thing that bugs me is the fact that it's a rare monster that will fail any kind of saving throw the players want to force. Perhaps this is just my experience of the game speaking, but at 28th level the save DCs for 9th level spells my sorcerer is forcing are in the neighborhood of DC 30 or so. When the leShay's lowest save modifier is close to that high, how am I ever supposed to force them to feel an effect? Likewise, the save DCs presented for monster special abilities have a tendency to be ludicrously high for characters at that ECL. I can only wonder how anyone is expected to make a DC 49 save against a Prismasaurus with any regularity (50ish%) at 26-28th level or a DC 83 Fort save vs the poison of a Devastation Centipede in the high 30s. Again, perhaps I've just been looking at it wrong, but this seems really silly to me.
Thoughts?