A Permutational Class Conundrum (3.5)

[Gnorman]

So, I've become tentatively involved in a game with some rather odd multiclassing requirements.

Every character must be primarily a caster of some sort. As this is core-only (no Psionics, even), my DM has defined this as Bard, Druid, Wizard, Cleric, and Sorcerer. No class can be represented twice. I believe he's doing this in an attempt to keep all the characters balanced with each other, though admittedly the bard gets kind of a raw deal here.

Every character must also have at least a two level dip in one of the remaining five classes (Paladins are right out, as it's an evil game). Ranger, Fighter, Barbarian, Rogue, and Monk. Again, no class can be represented twice. This seems to be to keep casters a bit lower on the power scale, but still balanced against each other.

Needless to say, myself and the other four players are casting about for the best way to balance this from not only an optimization perspective, but keeping the classes relatively balanced. We want each party member to contribute in their own way.

Any ideas on this one? Races are limited to core-only. Multiclassing penalties are enforced, so favored classes actually matter. Expected level range is about 3-12. We're not looking for anything straight-up broken, but we do want each member to haul their fair share of the collective party butt. It's sort of a purposefully old-school Greyhawk game, though we have not been informed as to whether or not we are playing any official modules.

My initial thoughts:

Rogue 2 / Wizard X - INT-based casting and skillmonkey synergy.

Fighter 2 / Cleric X - Likely the tank.

Barbarian 2 / Druid X - Primaaal powwwah!

I become more stumped with the last two - I hate shoehorning Monk into any build, but it seems like it'd fit more with a Sorcerer than a Bard. Which would leave us with a Ranger/Bard mix, perhaps... an archer archetype?

A Monk / Druid perhaps, for WIS while wildshaped...?

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Paladin... of Tyranny?

[Superglucose]

Monk/Druid if you have to, of course. Druid has moderate synergy in that in wildshaped form you're usually not wearing armor. Plus the feats are good bad if you want to do grappling monk. Of any of the classes, Monk goes best with Druid by far.

Barbarian/Sorceror, to give the Sorc move speed, fort save, and HP.

Fig/Cleric is probably fine.

Rogue/Wizard is probably fine as well

Ranger/Bard probably taking Ranged combat style.

Monk/Bard doesn't work because of alignment restrictions. It becomes 2 dead levels for the Bard class (or several dead levels for the Monk class, if you prefer)


Paladin... of Tyranny?
Sadly core only, and Paladin of Tyranny is UA.

[Gnorman]

Paladin... of Tyranny?

If I can get that one to stick, it'd make a much better choice than friggin' Monk.

[Superglucose]

Oh I disagree. Of any of the ones you listed, Monk2 (if I have to pick a class that doesn't give me spellcasting, of course) synergizes the best with what I'd do with the Druid.

Bear form, grapple. Use my lvl 1 feat on Improved Grapple giving me a +4 to all grapple checks. Scream at my GM until I could flurry natural weapons (this part is key, try to reach something in the third octave range), and bask in the glory of a free +12 to my AC.

[Fail]

A bard 2/rogue X can be even slightly better than the others (due to their compulsory dips). Just stock on UMD fodder. Though, if the campaign doesn't follow wealth by level, nothing will make the bard not suck.

[Kelb_Panthera]

If it's a strictly core only game, make sure the monk gets paired off with either the cleric or druid for wisdom synergy. If it's only class and race that are limited to core only, Monk can do Pretty well with any spell casting class by picking up Carmendine(sp) monk or Ascetic Mage to synergize with whatever your casting stat is. See also the enlightened fist and Sacred fist if PrC's from outside of core are allowed.

[Runestar]

Bard4/barb2/red dragon disciple?

[Darrin]

Oh I disagree. Of any of the ones you listed, Monk2 (if I have to pick a class that doesn't give me spellcasting, of course) synergizes the best with what I'd do with the Druid.


Synergizes a little *TOO* well. Natural attacks on top of an iterative unarmed strike is a bit strong.

I'd pair the Monk up with Cleric, so you've got Wisdom synergy, and the theme fits fairly well (holy monk). Barbarian Druid is fine, although rage + all those HPs + wildshape... still pretty darned strong.

Figher I'd pair up with Bard, make it a "support gish", or lockdown tripper.

Not sure what I'd do with Sorcerer, although a Cha-based party face/social engineer might work well. Not sure what I'd pair the ranger up with. Probably the bard... archery/support buffer.

[sonofzeal]

Druid / Monk - unarmed combat rocks while in wildshape!

Wizard / Rogue - heading towards Arcane Trickster, Daggerspell Mage, Unseen Seer, or any of the other Wiz/Rogue PrCs.

Battle Sorcerer (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#sorcererVariantBattleS orcerer) / Barbarian - Polymorph yourself into something nasty. Raging Treant ftw!

Cleric / Fighter - Clericzilla, pure and simple.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Do you have to do a 2-level dip in the other classes? 1 level in 2 of them may be better.
Monk 1/Barb 1/Druid X gets you rage in addition to Wis to AC and Imp Grapple. HUG THINE ENEMY!
Rogue 3/Wizard 7/Arcane Trickster 10. Shoot them in the gnads with magic.
Paladin of Slaughter 2/Sorcerer X. Casting stat to saves. What more do you want?

[ashmanonar]

Synergizes a little *TOO* well. Natural attacks on top of an iterative unarmed strike is a bit strong.

"Too well"? It's still a monk. It's still lost caster levels/spell levels.

[Kelb_Panthera]

"Too well"? It's still a monk. It's still lost caster levels/spell levels.

Does a druid really need an extra attack, stunning ability, wis to ac, and evasion on top of all the other things that a druid gets? It's only 2 caster levels, your still gonna get 9th level spells if the campaign lasts long enough.

[Vizzerdrix]

Does a druid really need an extra attack, stunning ability, wis to ac, and evasion on top of all the other things that a druid gets? It's only 2 caster levels, your still gonna get 9th level spells if the campaign lasts long enough.

If the DM is forcing this silly build restriction, then he'd better learn to deal with the outcome.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Does a druid really need an extra attack, stunning ability, wis to ac, and evasion on top of all the other things that a druid gets? It's only 2 caster levels, your still gonna get 9th level spells if the campaign lasts long enough.It's not "an extra attack". It's a full attack routine followed by making his natural attack routine at -2.
The real loss is in HD for his Wildshape forms and his AC advancement, not the spells. Those are the abilities that require sticking to the bleeding edge, especially core-only.

[deuxhero]

Can you take eldritch knight/Arcane Trickster (or even one of the other classes for that matter)?

[tyckspoon]

Does a druid really need an extra attack, stunning ability, wis to ac, and evasion on top of all the other things that a druid gets? It's only 2 caster levels, your still gonna get 9th level spells if the campaign lasts long enough.

Druid doesn't really *need* anything, but almost any other class is like just giving the Druid +2 LA (well.. ok, more like a couple of Racial Hit Die.) Giving it some Monk abilities at the cost of not taking Druid levels won't break anything that wasn't already broken, and it's a much more useful combination than would be achieved by pairing it with any of the other options. Ranger/Druid and Rogue/Druid have some things going for them, but if somebody is going to have to suck it up and take Monk levels, it should be the Druid.

[Gametime]

Does a druid really need an extra attack, stunning ability, wis to ac, and evasion on top of all the other things that a druid gets? It's only 2 caster levels, your still gonna get 9th level spells if the campaign lasts long enough.

There's a reason no one ever suggests monk 2/druid x as a druid build except when it is required by houseruled build restrictions. Wisdom to AC is probably the best of those abilities, and that can be replicated by the reasonably cheap Monk's belt. Nothing is better than faster spellcasting progression.

[deuxhero]

If the dual progress PRCs are allowed, I'd say Rogue/Wizard/Arcane trickster and sorc/paladin/eldritch knight.

[sonofzeal]

There's a reason no one ever suggests monk 2/druid x as a druid build except when it is required by houseruled build restrictions. Wisdom to AC is probably the best of those abilities, and that can be replicated by the reasonably cheap Monk's belt. Nothing is better than faster spellcasting progression.
Actually, way back when, I suggested a Vow of Poverty Saint Monk 1 / Druid 17 for WLD, and that was a really popular suggestion.

Monk's Belt works... if your DM lets it give Wis-to-AC (RAW, but some interpret otherwise), and you can get your hands on it (not guaranteed, especially in low magic / low wealth games), and your DM allows Wildling Clasps to work with it (RAW, but some dislike gear-in-Wildshape for valid balance concerns), and you can get your hands on one (again, not guaranteed), and you're not using VoP (generally suboptimal but actually pretty solid on this chassis)

At that point, sucking it up and taking a Monk level, and gaining a nice boost to saves and flurry and a bonus feat starts sounding like not so much of a bad idea.

[Gnorman]

Thanks for the ideas, folks.

After consulting with our DM today, we've decided on a Bard/Barbarian/RDD build for a raging STR-based meleer. Our Cleric/Fighter will tank, while our Paladin (of Tyranny!)/Sorc/EK will gish it up nicely. Our Rogue/Wizard/AT will handle the skills. And that Monk/Druid you mentioned? Yeah. Hug thine enemy indeed.

This has actually worked out rather nicely, despite the strange and twisted requirements. We're all at a casting disadvantage, but we're at one together.

[Draz74]

Maybe too late, but I actually really like Ranger 2/Cleric X in a Core-only game. Best archer around.

Wood Elf, worships Fharlanghn, takes Travel and Luck domains.

So I'd do:

Monk 2/Druid X -- the only thing that makes Monk actually good.
Ranger 2/Cleric X -- as above.

Also choose from:
(Rogue 2/Wizard X -- I agree, this is pretty good synergy. Maybe too good, especially if Arcane Trickster is allowed.)
Rogue 2/Bard X -- an excellent skillmonkey, a little more even with the rest of the group than the Wizard option.
(Paladin of Tyranny 2/Sorcerer X -- great, if allowed! Especially with Eldritch Knight.)
Fighter 2/Wizard X -- tolerable with Eldritch Knight.
Barbarian 2/Sorcerer X? Kind of flavorful, but mostly it's just the "leftovers." Man, losing two levels on a Sorcerer just hurts bad, period. Doesn't help that whichever caster that gets combined with Barbarian can't really use Rage.
Barbarian 2/Bard X -- not strong, but a lot of fun. :smallsmile: Possibly even go fully melee with just a dip in Bard? (If so, try Dragon Disciple.)

EDIT: hmm, a lot of that looks similar to what you're doing. I still recommend the Ranger/Cleric archer, though.

[sonofzeal]

Thanks for the ideas, folks.

After consulting with our DM today, we've decided on a Bard/Barbarian/RDD build for a raging STR-based meleer. Our Cleric/Fighter will tank, while our Paladin (of Tyranny!)/Sorc/EK will gish it up nicely. Our Rogue/Wizard/AT will handle the skills. And that Monk/Druid you mentioned? Yeah. Hug thine enemy indeed.

This has actually worked out rather nicely, despite the strange and twisted requirements. We're all at a casting disadvantage, but we're at one together.
Just remember to invest in ranged weapons/attacks too. With four characters who are all effective in melee, things can get crowded and it'll be good to think of ways to do more than plink. Reserve feats for the Wizard, Produce Flame for the Druid, and slings for the Bard-barian can all be good as a backup tactic.

[Superglucose]

Just remember to invest in ranged weapons/attacks too. With four characters who are all effective in melee, things can get crowded and it'll be good to think of ways to do more than plink. Reserve feats for the Wizard, Produce Flame for the Druid, and slings for the Bard-barian can all be good as a backup tactic.
Three. No way the AT is going to be effective in Melee as it cannot wear armor and bloody hell if I'm going to waste slots on Mage Armor at low level.

With Sneak Attack, personally I'd start using Scorching Ray. 3 7d6 (4d6 fire, 3d6 sneak attack) rays is a pretty nice way to open up combat.

[sonofzeal]

Three. No way the AT is going to be effective in Melee as it cannot wear armor and bloody hell if I'm going to waste slots on Mage Armor at low level.
Mithril Twilight, my good fellow, for all your wiz-gishing needs. :smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin:





....man, that didn't sound nearly so dirty in my head. But yes, AT's generally loooove rays, assuming your DM lets you call flank at range if there's a melee threat on the other side.

[Optimystik]

Oh I disagree. Of any of the ones you listed, Monk2 (if I have to pick a class that doesn't give me spellcasting, of course) synergizes the best with what I'd do with the Druid.

Bear form, grapple. Use my lvl 1 feat on Improved Grapple giving me a +4 to all grapple checks. Scream at my GM until I could flurry natural weapons (this part is key, try to reach something in the third octave range), and bask in the glory of a free +12 to my AC.

Even if he doesn't, a monk/druid in a core only game is still going to outshine the others. Flurry is hardly the limiting factor on your awesome.

I would pair Bard with Barbarian myself - Pump CHA and be the party face (you have all social skills as class skills), then buy a pair of drums for battle.

[Coidzor]

So wait, if you start at level 3 and have to take a 2 level dip in a martial class and can't have a class appear twice, and your primary class is your caster class so you have to take that first, then that means your primary class can't advance past 1st level.

...I'm kind of hoping that's not what either of you mean, so what do you mean?

Edit:Wait.. Actually, there's no way to be a monk-druid anyway due to the alignment restrictions being mutually exclusive... Unless one can be LN in an EVIL party and campaign. Which is hazy due to our knowledge of this DM....

[tyckspoon]

So wait, if you start at level 3 and have to take a 2 level dip in a martial class and can't have a class appear twice, and your primary class is your caster class so you have to take that first, then that means your primary class can't advance past 1st level.

...I'm kind of hoping that's not what either of you mean, so what do you mean?

I'm pretty sure he meant no class can appear twice within the party, not within the level-order of any given character.

[Dr_S]

I just wanted to say that I love the word "bard-barian" and if this is the only positive contribution this crazy classing restriction results in I would say that is more than enough.

[Coidzor]

Synergizes a little *TOO* well. Natural attacks on top of an iterative unarmed strike is a bit strong.

No, for the DM being such a weirdo, the miniscule power potential there should be taken from a moral standpoint. After all, Druid RAWR.

Edit:Wait.. Actually, there's no way to be a monk-druid anyway due to the alignment restrictions being mutually exclusive... Unless one can be LN in an EVIL party and campaign. Which is hazy due to our knowledge of this DM....



I'm pretty sure he meant no class can appear twice within the party, not within the level-order of any given character.

Ahh. So he can force someone to be a bard or sorcerer.

Now his evil plan makes sense.

http://bardbarian.wikidot.com/

Whereas Bardarian is actually a last name.

[Sophismata]

With Sneak Attack, personally I'd start using Scorching Ray. 3 7d6 (4d6 fire, 3d6 sneak attack) rays is a pretty nice way to open up combat.

7d6 fire. Sneak attack adds to the damage of what you are sneak attacking with.