PDA

View Full Version : Fixing Elves



taltamir
2010-01-16, 01:12 PM
Elves are a problem race, they are simply vastly inferior to humans in every way shape or form.

The big problem is that elves live close a 1000 years.
Imagine if einstein, neuton, galileo, leonardo de vinchy, galen, and pretty much every other famous researcher, inventor, engineer, or artist did not die of age before the age of 100?
neuton invented calculus... he started working on physics and noticed that known math is not capable of doing what he wanted... so he just sat down and invented calculus... then he used that to practically invent modern physics. Imagine what he could do in 1000 years..
Heck even programmers, or linguistics experts could achieve so much in a thousand years... you know there was a man who was inventing a mechanical computer in the 1700s? and a woman wrote the first program for it before it was even completed?...

Elves are also made to be immune to disease in fantasy, but that is not represented by their racial stats in DnD... if they have a low birth rate and are as susceptible to disease they would go extict. Few elves would reach 120 to start breeding with one baby every 60 years if they are just as susceptible to disease as humans are... Disease is pretty big for humans, many famous humans died from disease just as they are starting to do something great; or just before they finished.

Humans have to be vastly superior to a race so slow that it takes 120 years to reach the mental maturity, intelligence, and educational background of an 18 year old human. An elven mage of 500 years is somehow only as skilled as a 50 year old human... way to go claiming "elven superiority"

How could you possibly explain that elves are so rare and backwards yet supposedly so advanced?

If you say elves live to the same age as humans, are as susceptible to disease, and are as fertile... all problems are solved. Elves are just pointy eared humans with a penchant for magic.

Which is another issue, the elves are written in the fluff to be immortal (disease free) and good at magic... their crunch gives them sleep immunity, nothing about disease, and nothing good for magic. instead they get "detect secret doors and traps automatically, not sleep, and +dex -con"... elves make the perfect rogues but damn terrible wizards. This needs to change.

The Elf Remade:
Medium size.
An elf’s base land speed is 30 feet.
Magic Affinity: +1 racial bonus to effective caster level in any magic using class.
Automatic Languages: Common, Elven. Bonus Languages: Draconic, Gnoll, Gnome, Goblin, Orc, Sylvan.
Favored Class: Wizard.

Elves are humans with pointy ears that are naturally attuned to magic. they sleep normally, see normally, hear normally, age normally, etc. Their only differences compared to a human are described above.

A half-elf half-human is born with either the human fast learning trait (bonus feat and extra skillpoints), or with the magic affinity.

Elves who live in the forest, seashore, the sun, the moon, the gray, etc are identical to the above template, although they might have different colored skin, hair, eyes, and subtly different facial features. (aka, superficial differences like the various human races)

With the exception of Drow who gain infravision, but are blinded by light. In effect, they see normally in darkness and can't see in the light.

kamikasei
2010-01-16, 01:20 PM
If you say elves live to the same age as humans, are as susceptible to disease, and are as fertile... all problems are solved. Elves are just pointy eared humans with a penchant for magic

They don't sound much like elves any more, though.

Dienekes
2010-01-16, 01:20 PM
How could you possibly explain that elves are so rare and backwards yet supposedly so advanced?

Easy. Elves are a lot older, they're just inferior in about every way and have very little imagination. Picture them as particularly long lived proto-Neanderthals (No idea if this is a real thing, just roll with it) something about them simply doesn't push them forward. The people who developed their now "perfect" system are the few genetic outliers.

When they go on about how humans are inferior or can't be trusted simply ignore them, and let them try so hard to make themselves look mystical while humans keep developing their society.

Really though, don't try and look at D&D or even most fantasy with a too cynical eye. If you did you'd end in the Tippyverse and personally that's not the kind of world I enjoy reading or playing in.

Touchy
2010-01-16, 01:21 PM
They don't sound much like elves any more, though.

They sound like humans who look like elves but don't have a superiority complex.
Sounds good enough for me.

ericgrau
2010-01-16, 01:24 PM
They get the near equivalent of iron will for free (though dwarfs get a +2 to all 3 saves most of the time) and they're pretty good at skill things with their bonuses and "my elf sense is tingling" ability. IMO give more skill based challenges, especially secret doors, or else drop the skill bonuses and "elf sense" in exchange for something more combat oriented.

Nixing long life is more of a fluff thing for most campaigns, but yeah it works.

Grumman
2010-01-16, 01:24 PM
Why on earth would you want to make them "just pointy eared humans"? That's not fixing them, that's ruining them.

My own suggestion is to use the fixed age of adulthood from Races of the Wild (20 instead of 110), and to assume that elves are fewer in number, but have a higher proportion of high-level characters. Where non-adventuring humans might reach a maximum of level 5, non-adventuring elves might get up to level 10.

Edit: I'd give them all Elf Dilettante as a bonus feat too, for an effective minimum of one skill point in everything.

Zore
2010-01-16, 01:25 PM
They are also like the worst race ever now, especially those Drow who I would possibly assign a Negative LA because they are so bad. Couldn't you just change the fluff or I dunno give them meaningful racial traits to correspond to their new fluff instead of taking everything and giving them a joke trait?

leon666
2010-01-16, 01:26 PM
They sound like humans who look like elves but don't have a superiority complex.
Sounds good enough for me.

Seconded :smallbiggrin:

Reinboom
2010-01-16, 01:27 PM
You know... you can have a sufficiently mathematical and advanced civilization. A civilization who has discovered 0, has an advanced and accurate astronomical calender, calculates the movement of the stars, has a form of calculus, uses base 16 instead of base 10, and ponders on P vs NP...
Without having a modern technology.
Case in point: Incans, Mayans.

With the help of random beasts attacking kingdoms, and gods smiting myth drannor... you have a theme of recurring build up and let down, where they won't be dedicated wholly to invention either.

This is the backdrop I tend to prefer for elves. And solves most of the supposed issues rather cleanly. That is, let them be good at such things.

taltamir
2010-01-16, 01:27 PM
They are also like the worst race ever now, especially those Drow who I would possibly assign a Negative LA because they are so bad. Couldn't you just change the fluff or I dunno give them meaningful racial traits to correspond to their new fluff instead of taking everything and giving them a joke trait?

actually, they are the best race ever now...
every optimizer will tell you that magic = power.
Elves are supposedly highly magical... one of their problems is that they were designed to be rogues, not mages.

I gave them: Magic Affinity: +1 racial bonus to effective caster level in any magic using class.

Dienekes
2010-01-16, 01:28 PM
They sound like humans who look like elves but don't have a superiority complex.
Sounds good enough for me.

Ehh, being more in tune with magic and nature would probably have them develop the superiority complex anyhow.

taltamir
2010-01-16, 01:30 PM
when consolidating my arguments I accidently left off a line... I edited it in... it was supposed to be:

Which is another issue, the elves are written in the fluff to be immortal (disease free) and good at magic... their crunch gives them sleep immunity, nothing about disease, and nothing good for magic. instead they get "detect secret doors and traps automatically, not sleep, and +dex -con"... elves make the perfect rogues but damn terrible wizards. This needs to change.

Zore
2010-01-16, 01:31 PM
actually, they are the best race ever now...
every optimizer will tell you that magic = power.
Elves are supposedly highly magical... one of their problems is that they were designed to be rogues, not mages.

I gave them: Magic Affinity: +1 racial bonus to effective caster level in any magic using class.

+1 ECL vs. a feat and skillpoints. Or +Casting stat to make my spells hit harder. Or +Con so I don't crumple like tissue paper on the two or three hits that do get through. Or play a gnome who gets this and other racial abilities. Hmm, tough choice there. A +1 bonus doesn't really cut it because its trivial to pump up your caster level.

Vizzerdrix
2010-01-16, 01:31 PM
I agree. ALL elves should be fixed. Someone call the vet and get my my hedge clippers.:smallmad:


actually, they are the best race ever now...
every optimizer will tell you that magic = power.
Elves are supposedly highly magical... one of their problems is that they were designed to be rogues, not mages.

I gave them: Magic Affinity: +1 racial bonus to effective caster level in any magic using class.

.....So what your saying is we should grind them up for spell components? At least for those races that want to do something meaningful with magic. other than sit up a tree

taltamir
2010-01-16, 01:34 PM
+1 ECL vs. a feat and skillpoints. Or +Casting stat to make my spells hit harder. Or +Con so I don't crumple like tissue paper on the two or three hits that do get through. Or play a gnome who gets this and other racial abilities. Hmm, tough choice there. A +1 bonus doesn't really cut it because its trivial to pump up your caster level.

no they don't, and no it isn't.

An Ioun stone of +1 to CL is 30,000gp. thats the only method to do so in the SRD.

gnomes get: Add +1 to the Difficulty Class for all saving throws against illusion spells cast by gnomes. This adjustment stacks with those from similar effects, such as the Spell Focus feat.

Thats not the same as +1 to CL.
most cleric domains give +1 to CL of a FEW select spells; the domains and the ioun stone are the only 2 ways to increase CL in core AFAIK... elves get +1 to CL in all spells. It is meant to embody their "magical affinity" while not being broken.
It is more useful then the entire laundry list of abilities that I removed. I made elves more powerful, not less.


I agree. ALL elves should be fixed. Someone call the vet and get my my hedge clippers.:smallmad:

ha, that was hillarious


.....So what your saying is we should grind them up for spell components? At least for those races that want to do something meaningful with magic. other than sit up a tree

so was that...

Harperfan7
2010-01-16, 01:55 PM
Pathfinder did ok. They are naturally better at magic than humans, but a human who specializes is just as good as they are (puts his +2 in Int and uses his bonus feat for spell penetration) and will actually have more skills, but he won't be near as good as they are at the more roguish things. Whereas a human rogue can just about match an elf one (ok, not really) but won't come close to their magic.

So, now you have elves that are dex/perception and Int/magic and are better than humans at both, but any one human can be as good as they are at one or the other.

ex cathedra
2010-01-16, 01:59 PM
Boosting CL is absurdly easy, in my experience. I don't know why you think that it's difficult at all. Star Elves, Grey Elves, and Fire Elves are all usable races, so I'm not sure what your problem with them is. To be honest, Elves are one of the better races; sure, they aren't Strongheart Halflings or Humans, but they're better than most other races, in my opinion.

Also, elves make 'damn terrible wizards'?
What?
You can't be serious.

Optimystik
2010-01-16, 02:18 PM
Dex and Int are godly for a wizard. Batman wants to go first (initiative) and many of his tools use RTAs. Immunity to sleep is a huge help at early levels, when you can get caught in your own bursts (or targeted by other spell casters.) Elves also get extremely useful weapon proficiencies - even in a low-magic campaign, you're bound to find a good longbow/longsword. This is particularly a bonus for an elven cleric, who can now can whip out martial weapons instead of a mace.

I still don't like the pointy-eared gits, but that's not the same as saying they're weak.

taltamir
2010-01-16, 02:20 PM
having useful WEAPON proficiencies doesn't make them good wizards... maybe from an optimization standpoint it helps, but its not actually good AT magic.

Optimystik
2010-01-16, 02:26 PM
having useful WEAPON proficiencies doesn't make them good wizards... maybe from an optimization standpoint it helps, but its not actually good AT magic.


Elves are a problem race, they are simply vastly inferior to humans in every way shape or form.

Funny, I considered "every way shape or form" to be more inclusive than just wizardry.

ex cathedra
2010-01-16, 02:32 PM
Their weapon proficiencies are helpful for gish prestige class qualification. Grey/Fire elves are great. +Int, +Dex is good. -Con is bad, but 2 Con is easily overcome, and Necropolitans/Unseelie Fey don't mind at all. -Str/-Cha is laughable. Elven Generalists are good if you can't specialize for some reason, or great with something like a Hummingbird familiar. Otherwordly is great, Eternal Blade, while not a caster, is another good elven option, as are Revenant Blade and Olin Gisir.

Saying that elves are bad is just saying that you aren't trying hard enough.

taltamir
2010-01-16, 02:34 PM
Funny, I considered "every way shape or form" to be more inclusive than just wizardry.

those are unrelated statements:
1. they are inferior to humans
2. they are designed as bad at wizardry.

Sinfire Titan
2010-01-16, 02:35 PM
no they don't, and no it isn't.

An Ioun stone of +1 to CL is 30,000gp. thats the only method to do so in the SRD.

Prayer Beads, Candle of Invocation (because it has an effect other than breaking your game), Archmage High Arcana class feature. That's the start of it. Outside the SRD, it just gets easier.



BTW, I use Rilkans, not Elves. Better flavor, better stats, and actually useful racial traits (bonuses to Knowledge checks beats +2 to spot hidden doors).

taltamir
2010-01-16, 02:36 PM
Prayer Beads, Candle of Invocation (because it has an effect other than breaking your game), Archmage High Arcana class feature. That's the start of it. Outside the SRD, it just gets easier.

point, but 2 of the 3 are for clerics. I did say AFAIK... 5 total methods is not "obscenely easy".

1 is a wizard PrC, some are cleric only items, one is a 30k item that gives +1 and is class independent.

ex cathedra
2010-01-16, 02:41 PM
UMD is for everyone, silly. Also, Karma Beads are the only divine-only items there, so I don't think I understand your point. Regardless, Elves are actually pretty okay at wizardry. Why not spend this effort on races that are actually bad?

Also, Rilkans? But... they're all scaly. Ew.

I said that raising your CL is obscenely easy. I didn't specify core, but the tools exist there.

taltamir
2010-01-16, 02:42 PM
UMD is for everyone, silly.

UMD gives you + to CL when casting spells?
or are you saying a wizard should use UMD to use prayer beads?

a lot of those solutions require you to be at least level 15... this gives +CL at level 1.

ex cathedra
2010-01-16, 02:44 PM
UMD gives you Karma Beads.

Optimystik
2010-01-16, 02:45 PM
those are unrelated statements:
1. they are inferior to humans
2. they are designed as bad at wizardry.

A) My post was addressing both.

B) They're not "bad at wizardry." They have bonuses that very clearly help wizards, particularly Gray/Sun Elves and Lesser Drow.

taltamir
2010-01-16, 02:45 PM
UMD gives you Karma Beads.

the beads of karma and summons can be activated by any character capable of casting divine spells. The owner need not hold or wear the strand of prayer beads in any specific location, as long as he carries it somewhere on his person.

ex cathedra
2010-01-16, 02:52 PM
A DC25 UMD check allows anyone to gain the benefits of a Bead of Karma.

+1 CL at level one isn't such a big deal. It's a nice boost at low levels, I guess, but I'd rather play a normal Grey/Fire/Sun elf. At mid levels, everyone has access to really easy methods of boosting CL, while normal elves still have their own unique advantages.

Gnorman
2010-01-16, 03:13 PM
I agree. ALL elves should be fixed. Someone call the vet and get my my hedge clippers.:smallmad:

http://lowdownblog.files.wordpress.com/2009/09/bob-barker.jpg

"Help control the elf population. Have your elves spayed or neutered."

Sinfire Titan
2010-01-16, 03:20 PM
Also, Rilkans? But... they're all scaly. Ew.

Only on the Throat, Wrists, and Ankles. Everywhere else looks human. Plus that's flavor, thus inherently mutable. If I want a scale-less Rilkan, I can damn well have one.

Ormur
2010-01-16, 03:56 PM
Elves are also made to be immune to disease in fantasy, but that is not represented by their racial stats in DnD... if they have a low birth rate and are as susceptible to disease they would go extict. Few elves would reach 120 to start breeding with one baby every 60 years if they are just as susceptible to disease as humans are... Disease is pretty big for humans, many famous humans died from disease just as they are starting to do something great; or just before they finished.

If elves live at a lover population density than humans as might be inferred from the fluff (they live in forests in harmony with the land, sort of hunter gatherers with magical agriculture or something) then diseases wouldn't evolve to the same degree as in dense farming societies. If you then say that elven physiology is sufficiently different from humans so that human diseases don't automatically infect elves you've got a society largely without diseases (otherwise you get a scenario where elves are all but wiped out whenever a human stumbles into their forest).

It also ignores that diseases really shouldn't be as big a problem in D&D as in medieval societies with all that magic and elves are usually depicted having more egalitarian and magic heavy societies. Maybe elves just have universal health care.



How could you possibly explain that elves are so rare and backwards yet supposedly so advanced?

The late maturity of elves is indeed problematic. They seem to be a lot slower than humans. It might be justified if elves were that much better than humans when they matured but they aren't, they're LA O like us. That said always imagined that elves would on average be slightly higher level than humans since they have a much longer life to get challenged in even after they've grown up (the source of XP is also problematic). That's how they can protect themselves against larger and better organized human states.

Lower density and a lower population than humans would mean a slower rate of progress that might explain why elves aren't that much more advanced than humans. Most human scientists also made their biggest discoveries pretty early in their lives. Einstein didn't accomplish much in the last half of his life. Physicists and mathematicians are almost discounted if they haven't done anything significant before the age of 30. It might be different for artisans, philosophers and chroniclers. Longevity might therefore not make as much a difference for the material progress of a civilization as you'd otherwise think.

lesser_minion
2010-01-16, 04:08 PM
The 110 years thing is seriously bizarre. According to the fluff, an elf is supposed to be physically and mentally on par with an adult human by about 20 or so.

They spend 90 years learning a tonne of crap that has no game effect.

That might be worth looking at.

I still find it weird that hobgoblins are superior to elves in every way (oh noes! A level adjustment that doesn't actually have any meaning in fluff...), more numerous in the fluff, and sworn enemies of the elves. Oh, and the elves rely on the same tactics all the time and hobgoblins have a strict military structure that basically translates to "all elves were wiped out by their own stupidity five milennia ago".

I don't think your fix is good enough, but I agree that they seriously need one. At the moment they are seriously embarrasing in comparison to the fluff.

And nobody cares because apparently the only way to portray an elf is "arrogant bastard".

taltamir
2010-01-16, 04:11 PM
lesser_minion, nice observation... what other suggestions do you have?

Maybe leave my suggestion as the LA+0 elf (or maybe add a few things to it while maintaining LA+0) and make a different higher LA elf? what would you suggest for those tougher elves?

Foryn Gilnith
2010-01-16, 04:12 PM
Elves are spawned by nature. They have 110-year incubation periods. Elves are to Killoren as Bronze Age men are to Heroic Age men. The only reason they're still being spawned is that they have better understanding of civilization's mindset than killoren do, and are therefore used for war planning.

lesser_minion
2010-01-16, 04:28 PM
lesser_minion, nice observation... what other suggestions do you have?

Maybe leave my suggestion as the LA+0 elf (or maybe add a few things to it while maintaining LA+0) and make a different higher LA elf? what would you suggest for those tougher elves?

I think elves just need to be tough enough to handle hobgoblins really - that doesn't actually require them to be LA+1.

I'd like to see the default portrayal of elves to be something other than "arrogant tree-huggers". People should be able to like them without having a psychological disorder.

They definitely need the maturing age cut down to something like 25 before any more humour writers pass comment on it.

Also, I think elves might be better served by -2 Str than -2 Con. Sure, Strength is less important, but quite a few portrayals of elves imply that they have at least the same amount of stamina as humans (if not more).

I'd also be tempted to change their favoured class to Sorcerer. Magic is supposed to come naturally to elves, isn't it?

Slayn82
2010-01-16, 04:36 PM
In a lot of established scenarios, the elves usually enjoy the most well structured societies around (case in LotR, Forgotten Realms, Ravenloft). And probably have more good crafters than other races. They receive a lot of racial feats, that make good spell casters, althought in D&D that involves a lot of Embrace the Chaos. Only their long lives give them better understanding of things than humans, that the sistem handles that aspect as having higher levels. Yes, a 120 years elf of level 1 looks like a chumpy, but before that, he barelly was recognized as an active member of his society. And a few PrCs handle the aspects of how much knowledge and how great are the legacies of the elven people.

And anyway, by level 1 a 8 year old goblin/kobold is perfectly feasible. Are they the superior race?

Thats just game balance. For instance, as people kept wanting to play drows, they lowered the drow abilities on the game. If one elf was that much better, people would only play elves.

hamishspence
2010-01-16, 04:37 PM
They definitely need the maturing age cut down to something like 25 before any more humour writers pass comment on it.

yes- both Rich Burlew's OoTS (Origin of PCs) and Tony Moseley's Zogonia, have commented on it.

Races of the Wild cuts the "physical maturity" to 25, but still leaves "usual age of beginner elven adventurers" as the same as the PHB (though it does suggest there are exceptions to this).

Twilight Jack
2010-01-16, 05:22 PM
Twilight Jack's Recrunched Elves:

+2 Dexterity, -2 Strength: Elves are exceptionally graceful, but lack the raw muscle of other humanoids their size.
Medium: As Medium creatures, elves have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size.
Elf base land speed is 30 feet.
10 + Int modifier bonus skill points at 1st level: Although elves reach physical maturity at age 25-30, they aren't likely to leave the safety of their homes to go adventuring before the beginning of their second century. Most elves spend the intervening years at relative ease, perusing a great many fields of study before settling on a path. These bonus skill points are meant to reflect that time, and may be spent on Appraise, Climb, Craft, Handle Animal, Heal, Knowledge (arcana, architecture, geography, or nature), Perform, Profession, and Spellcraft only. Ranks in other skills may not be purchased with these points. Each bonus skill point purchases one rank in any of these skills, but the skills are treated as cross-class in all other respects, including the maximum possible rank allowed.
Immunity to magic sleep effects, and a +2 racial saving throw bonus against enchantment spells or effects.
Low-Light Vision: An elf can see twice as far as a human in starlight, moonlight, torchlight, and similar conditions of poor illumination. She retains the ability to distinguish color and detail under these conditions.
Weapon Proficiency: Elves receive the Martial Weapon Proficiency feats for the longsword, rapier, longbow (including composite longbow), and shortbow (including composite shortbow) as bonus feats.
+2 racial bonus on Listen, Search, and Spot checks. An elf who merely passes within 5 feet of a secret or concealed door is entitled to a Search check to notice it as if she were actively looking for it.
+2 racial bonus on Craft checks related to wood or metal: Elves are exceptionally skilled craftsfolk and their goods are renowned for their delicacy and strength.
Automatic Languages: Common and Elven. Bonus Languages: Draconic, Gnoll, Gnome, Goblin, Orc, and Sylvan.
Favored Class: Wizard. A multiclass elf’s wizard class does not count when determining whether she takes an experience point penalty for multiclassing.

elonin
2010-01-16, 05:24 PM
The main problem is that elves listed in the phb are fluffed as high elves (Noldor), but are statted out as the Sindarian elves. So their fluff and favored class should be changed to rogue?/scout/ranger. Then the Noldor type should loose the rogue skill add ons and auto door search feature and gain some 1/day castings. I'd also change their stat bonuses to -2 wis /+2 int/cha player choice of 1.

Superglucose
2010-01-16, 05:34 PM
Easy. Elves are a lot older, they're just inferior in about every way and have very little imagination. Picture them as particularly long lived proto-Neanderthals (No idea if this is a real thing, just roll with it) something about them simply doesn't push them forward. The people who developed their now "perfect" system are the few genetic outliers.


In addition, let's say that for every 1 elf, there are 1000 humans. Newtwon was one man living in a country of millions, and yet only he had the ability to dream to work with physics and the ability to figure out calculus.

Invention and inspiration are not something of the masses, they are born of unique and great individuals. When you have quite a low birth rate, you're going to have significantly fewer outliers on the bell curve; that is to say that if you have 100 elves you might have 1 really smart and 1 really dumb elf. But what if that really smart elf prefers to just sit around tending his rock garden rather than figuring out anything new? Elven technology stagnates.

However we have 100,000 humans, and 100 are really smart, and 100 are really dumb. Of the 100 that are really smart, 99 of them just want to tend rock gardens, but one of them thinks, "Hmmm... what happens if I mix this sulfur with the saltpeter?" Bam, humans have guns and 99 well tended rock gardens, while the elves have 1 extremely well tended rock garden.

A mixture of racial apathy (see Tolkein elves) with low numbers would tend to make a technologically inferior race. If you like, you can throw in dogmas within the elven societies which would further stunt development.

Vizzerdrix
2010-01-16, 05:46 PM
Elf Stuff

Where's the LA on that thing? +2 at least for that honking chunk of free skill points.

lesser_minion
2010-01-16, 06:29 PM
Where's the LA on that thing? +2 at least for that honking chunk of free skill points.

A honking chunk of free level-appropriate skill points that aren't actually going to damage the game at all, especially as they decrease in value with levels.

Twilight Jack
2010-01-16, 06:48 PM
A honking chunk of free level-appropriate skill points that aren't actually going to damage the game at all, especially as they decrease in value with levels.

This. It gives Elves a nice broad base of skills to reflect their long lives prior to taking up adventuring. Broad, but shallow, as those skills are ever after treated as cross-class unless they're on the list for one of the elf's actual classes.

taltamir
2010-01-16, 06:51 PM
Twilight Jack, I approve.
They mature normally and have extra skill points (or class levels if your DM wants that) to show that they didn't just take 10 times as long as a human to learn the simplest thing. The can maintain their "superior" status.

I am not saying I am abandoning my suggested fix.
But that this is another totally valid fix IMAO.

Noble Savant
2010-01-16, 06:56 PM
The 110 years thing is seriously bizarre. According to the fluff, an elf is supposed to be physically and mentally on par with an adult human by about 20 or so.

They spend 90 years learning a tonne of crap that has no game effect.


The 90 years are essentially fluff time. Traditionally they use the time to learn about elven culture. Language history, the whole shabang. Before that, it is highly unusual for them to leave home and go wandering around killing kobolds. Thus, a level 1 adventurer is required to be above this age.

All of the elves are not level 1 when they hit 120, and there is nothing to imply this. It's simply this fact: Elves have to be level 1 at some point, as that is the default starting point in DnD. By the fluff, they spend 90 or so years learning culture before they leave to go out into the world. That's the reason for the starting age.

That doesn't mean that a level 10 adventurer can't also go out into the world at 120 as well.

Twilight Jack
2010-01-16, 06:58 PM
Twilight Jack, I approve.
They mature normally and have extra skill points (or class levels if your DM wants that) to show that they didn't just take 10 times as long as a human to learn the simplest thing. The can maintain their "superior" status.

I am not saying I am abandoning my suggested fix.
But that this is another totally valid fix IMAO.

My only remaining question on the skills is whether to keep the current numbers, which essentially lets them get a proto-class level skill wise with 1st level multipliers a second time, or alter it to a flat rate. I'm toying with the notion of a flat 10 + Int extra points. Otherwise, the Gray Elf with a 20 Int to start gets 28 extra points before even looking at his class list. That's more points than he has available "elf" skills to put them in. Alright, I just convinced myself.

EDIT: I changed the entry to reflect the evolution of my thinking on the subject.

taltamir
2010-01-16, 07:00 PM
I have a suitable alternative...

Elves reach maturity at 20. They are not considered adults and are normally not allowed to leave home until 120.
During that time they gain 1 class level per about 20 years.
Adventuring elves leave home early... their age Dependant on the level the party starts at...

So a party starting at level 3 would have a level 3 elf who left at about age 60.

When meeting elves in a city, the "young" elves are of a suitable level, the "adults" are all at least level 5.

BTW, the elven language takes the same amount of skill points to learn as every other language.


My only remaining question on the skills is whether to keep the current numbers, which essentially lets them get a proto-class level skill wise with 1st level multipliers a second time, or alter it to a flat rate. I'm toying with the notion of a flat 10 + Int extra points. Otherwise, the Gray Elf with a 20 Int to start gets 28 extra points before even looking at his class list. That's more points than he has available "elf" skills to put them in. Alright, I just convinced myself.

EDIT: I changed the entry to reflect the evolution of my thinking on the subject.

good idea... maybe also make things simpler by just adding a few skills as "class skills" and giving them a few bonus skill points that they may distribute to anything they want?

KnightOfV
2010-01-17, 02:05 AM
The thing about elves is that they are classically fluffed as being a race 'untouched' by time. A human is incredulous when they realize an elf takes 120 years to become a 1st level wizard when it may only take them 20 to grasp basic spellcasting and lament for all the 'wasted' time. However, elves have no need to 'cram' all their knowledge into two decades. They can take decades enjoying their childhood in carefree innocence. Why go to school five days a week? Play with friends, explore the forest, write an epic, find love--and enjoy it all for crying out loud. I would imagine to an elf the concept of 'balancing' work and play is entirely foreign, their childhood is an endless summer where they learn their professions and skill points because it's fun not because of strict training and strong motivation. Elves have time to enjoy their life in a way the other races cannot comprehend. They may study the sword for 20 years only to get bored and try painting for another two decades, then just take five years off to walk to the end of the next horizon. These guys can spend a full night watching the stars, or a week searching for the perfect cherry blossom. Nothing is rushed, no one is stressed. Class skills come easily and natural.

Take the example of a 1st level elven Wizard who at the age of 120 has literally have more than a lifetime of human enjoyment. He has known love and heartbreak, read thousands of novels, explored every inch of his forest, and picked up some wizardry along the way. His 1st level human wizard companion, on the other hand, has spent 20 years slaving over spellbooks, memorizing spells by repetition and studying, and has had no time for a social life, never mind pleasure reading. Once adventuring, the elf will start applying himself as the human does, and will learn spells every bit as fast now that he has a reason to stay on task (though it will probably be horribly taxing and unpleasant learning at that speed). And even then, once the evil overlord is defeated, the now 12th level elf wizard will go back to his homeland and take a well deserved break from wizardry and return to courting or dancing or whatever he happens to feel like doing at the moment and may not even cast a spell except for fun until his homeland is threatened again. Elves simply do not have the motivation to shake the world the way humans do. Why bother after all, when life is already perfect and you always, always have time to do the things you love?

That's always been my take on it anyway.

taltamir
2010-01-17, 04:50 AM
the problem with that is, that every scientist, inventor, or artist worth his salt enjoys what they do. You yourself said "write a poem"... What I learn in college is a fraction of what I learn in life, languages, arts, etc...
Learning happens naturally, it just does. In 120 years, without cramming, you could easily master dozens of languages, become a world famous performer (20 ranks of perform? bardic school here I come!), or unravel the mysteries of the universe (high level wizard).
Those hundreds of books read? exploration? knowledge history, knowledge geography, and probably a few other knowledge skills depending on the contents of the book... each one should have more bardic lore then a human bard 20.

I can understand it being slower as they are in no rush... but 120 years? that just makes them stupid.

Eldariel
2010-01-17, 06:39 AM
The main problem is that elves listed in the phb are fluffed as high elves (Noldor), but are statted out as the Sindarian elves. So their fluff and favored class should be changed to rogue?/scout/ranger. Then the Noldor type should loose the rogue skill add ons and auto door search feature and gain some 1/day castings. I'd also change their stat bonuses to -2 wis /+2 int/cha player choice of 1.

They aren't really based that much on Tolkien Elves anymore; Tolkien Elves have such a slew of abilities that they'd be...well, I recall Ghaele Eladrin (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/ghaele.htm) are pretty much what Tolkien Elves in D&D would look like.

That said, I like +2 Dex, -2 Con, +2 Int for Elves. Con-penalty is so huge that it can really afford two bonuses, and this really makes them good at what they're supposed to be good at (nimble fighting and Wizardy). I also like the idea of giving them a ton of bonus skills to sort-of unrelated skills.

Then again, I'm of the opinion that every character should have about ~10 more skillpoints per level than they get presently so take that as you will. I find it utterly ridiculous how few things you can learn without being Einstein. That means outlier skills like Profession, Craft and company are almost always something you gotta ignore (especially as a Fighter-type character) just so your character covers the few necessities. And not all characters have Spot in class. WTF?

hiryuu
2010-01-17, 11:39 AM
The way I handle this is pretty simple. Being the fey-like creatures that they are, elves handle things the way that fey do. They don't step outside their comfort zone or their traditional ways of doing things not because they're stupid, but because their brains simply don't work the same way that human brains do; they literally can't think outside the box. The average human mindset to them is absolutely insane. Why would you even try to do something differently than the way it's already done? Why, the very idea is completely preposterous. Another example, how are you even supposed to paint a sunset if you can't see it? You know, I heard Altheril went out to meditate, and when he came back just fifty years later, the humans had built a town in the way between his meditation spot and the tree, but it looked completely different from the town down the river! It's amazing, but frightening. We'd better just stay in the woods, just to be safe.

Look at the settings elves are already in, they're probably secretly like this already. Sure, they can do fantastic artwork and build amazing cities of mystic form, but they're the same forms, techniques, and styles they've used for tens of thousands of years. Any variance is purely by accident.

The elves that do have this thing called "imagination" are genetic freaks tend to wander around in stuffy dungeons with surly dwarves.

Speaking of genetic freaks, I bet elves have the same reproductive rate as humans, their children just make sickly British shut-ins look like cardio-focused athletes. I bet the only elves that survive to adulthood have above-average Con scores (for elves), seeing as how the chicken pox might kill them. This has a fun side-effect. Elves might fight to the death to save the lives of children, but once they're dead, simply shrug and move on as if nothing happened (which would totally add to their creepiness; they're here to help defend you and your children and put their full heart and emotion and rage into doing so. Oh, Billy died. The elven commander does not grieve and is confused at why the humans are doing so.).

Grumman
2010-01-17, 11:53 AM
Hiryuu: That's a lot of hate-filled propaganda you've got going there. What do you do for your day job, write for the Church of Zarus's newsletter?

hiryuu
2010-01-17, 11:57 AM
Hiryuu: That's a lot of hate-filled propaganda you've got going there. What do you do for your day job, write for the Church of Zarus's newsletter?

Actually, I play a lot of elves, believe it or not. S'awesome to be playing someone who's Chaotic Good but creepy enough to make the other characters feel uncomfortable.

Eldan
2010-01-17, 01:01 PM
I fully support every attempt at giving elves an alien mindset. That said, I'm usually playing the chaotic angle way more than the "live forever" angle.

See, elves live for a few hundred years, but they actually don't get more done than a human would in the same time. Why? Because they don't sit down and read a book to study spells. They read a sentence, and get distracted by the wall opposite them. They stare at it for ten minutes, take their belt knife, carve a face into the wall, stare at it for ten more minutes, start to wonder what they were doing here, leave the room, get a drink. On the way back, they get tired, and lie down for a nap, then remember that they were studying spells.

They are cats with ADD.

Drakevarg
2010-01-17, 01:47 PM
@Eldan: First off, that was hilarious. Thank you.

@Everyone: Secondly, I think that the biggest problem with elves isn't the stats; it's the fluff. I personally simply don't like the idea of immortal elves. In fact, when I was discussing it with a friend of mine the only reason we could come up with as to why none of the "savage" races wiped the slow moving bastards out when the elves were the only "civilized" blokes on the block was because Corellon Larethian was proteting them. (That is, they're a bunch of childlike, arrogant tightwads because their god is a pedophile and literally making use of divine intervention to keep natural selection from happening and allowing elves to develop faster so as to not get stomped out of existance.)

Ranting aside, the way I usually run elves is that their lifespan is MUCH shorter (about 350 year life expectancy), they live in a society that promotes cleanliness (unlike the humans who think "street" and "toilet" are synonymous), and their traditional aloofness is mostly cultural since most elves, upon choosing a career, focus almost ENTIRELY on that sphere of knowledge. (And partnered with their extended lifespan, this makes it highly probable that an elven artisan will know more about their particular craft than a human artisan.) This intense level of focus makes them feel that if you aren't an elf in the same field as them who has been doing it longer, you have no business pretending you know ANYTHING about that field. The sheer ammount of work they do to learn it makes it downright insulting to them for anyone else to even imply they know more about it than they do.

So what I'd so is probably take away the Elven Portal Sense (it's just nonsensical in my opinion), replace their CON penalty with a STR penalty, get rid of their racial proficiencies (again, nonsensical with the above revamped culture) and their racial sleep dealy (one, nonsensical, and two, "trance" just means they need less sleep and get to feel better about themselves because it has a fancy name) and then give them the ability to choose one Craft, Knowledge, or Profession skill, make it a class skill and get a +5 racial bonus to it.

Anyway, most will probably dismiss this as invalid or just silly, but that's my two cents.

chiasaur11
2010-01-17, 02:16 PM
Hiryuu: That's a lot of hate-filled propaganda you've got going there. What do you do for your day job, write for the Church of Zarus's newsletter?

Typical elvish whining. Somebody points out your species is less than perfect, you accuse them of Zarus worship. Elves aren't better at magic than humans? Zarus worship! Drow don't really run the underdark? Zarus worship! Dwarves are better than elves? Sneaky Zarus worship!

(Nice little write-up Hiryuu. I actually could tolerate elves that worked like that.)

lesser_minion
2010-01-17, 02:43 PM
Typical elvish whining. Somebody points out your species is less than perfect, you accuse them of Zarus worship. Elves aren't better at magic than humans? Zarus worship! Drow don't really run the underdark? Zarus worship! Dwarves are better than elves? Sneaky Zarus worship!

(Nice little write-up Hiryuu. I actually could tolerate elves that worked like that.)

Dwarves are actually just as bad, IMO. Except elves suck because they're badly written while dwarves suck because they suck.

I think Exalted's jadeborn handle the elves/dwarves thing pretty well, and they also go a little closer to the roots of the two species. The enlightened jadeborn have three castes - Artisans (basically elves), Workers, and Warriors. The latter two are basically dwarves.

Sinfire Titan
2010-01-17, 02:53 PM
Dwarves are actually just as bad, IMO. Except elves suck because they're badly written while dwarves suck because they suck.

I think Exalted's jadeborn handle the elves/dwarves thing pretty well, and they also go a little closer to the roots of the two species. The enlightened jadeborn have three castes - Artisans (basically elves), Workers, and Warriors. The latter two are basically dwarves.

Dwarves are one of the best races in the PHB...

Foryn Gilnith
2010-01-17, 03:04 PM
Dwarfs and their Fortresses are pretty nice.

lesser_minion
2010-01-17, 03:04 PM
Dwarves are one of the best races in the PHB...

Fluffwise. They're just height-challenged alcoholics with nothing serious to contribute to anything.

Crunchwise, they get a penalty to a dump stat in exchange for a bonus to basically a god-stat, bonuses to virtually all saves, a bonus to craft checks, and the ability to be really good at looking at rocks.

Sinfire Titan
2010-01-17, 03:07 PM
Fluffwise. They're just height-challenged alcoholics with nothing serious to contribute to anything.

Fluff is mutable. I prefer Eberron dwarves myself, but I'm an Eberron fan anyway. If you don't like the stereotype, don't use it and make something else up.

lesser_minion
2010-01-17, 03:11 PM
Fluff is mutable. I prefer Eberron dwarves myself, but I'm an Eberron fan anyway. If you don't like the stereotype, don't use it and make something else up.

Fluff is the concept your rules exist to portray. Sure, it's sometimes possible to change it and still have the crunch make sense. That doesn't make it irrelevant.

The bottom line is that designing without fluff is like flicking paint at a wall. Yes, some people can make sense of it. I wouldn't call it especially good art though.

TheWerdna
2010-01-17, 03:17 PM
There is a easy way to explain why elves live so long and yet haven't had technological advances, its because elves have a different mindset then humans. Humans are contently trying to improve there lives, contently trying to find better ways of doing things or improving technology.

Elves on the other hand have a more conservitive standpoint when it comes to technology. their ansestors have done it this way and they will continue to do things the way they always have. most elves don;t concentrate of technology, due to both their mindset and due to relying highly on magic.

Edit: on the terms of elves being magicaly elighned I have grey elves have +2int, -2 str, -2con but get +1 caster level and get 3 0-level spells and a 1-level spell once per day.

taltamir
2010-01-17, 03:24 PM
There is a easy way to explain why elves live so long and yet haven't had technological advances, its because elves have a different mindset then humans. Humans are contently trying to improve there lives, contently trying to find better ways of doing things or improving technology.

Elves on the other hand have a more conservitive standpoint when it comes to technology. their ansestors have done it this way and they will continue to do things the way they always have. most elves don;t concentrate of technology, due to both their mindset and due to relying highly on magic.

in other words, elves are stupid and vastly inferior :)
thank you for making our points for us.
Besides, its not just technology, its anything. Technology, magic, art, whatever...


Fluffwise. They're just height-challenged alcoholics with nothing serious to contribute to anything.

Crunchwise, they get a penalty to a dump stat in exchange for a bonus to basically a god-stat, bonuses to virtually all saves, a bonus to craft checks, and the ability to be really good at looking at rocks.

Alcoholism as a racial trait isn't very good... it does explain why they never amount to anything despite being much more long lived then humans. :P

chiasaur11
2010-01-17, 03:25 PM
Alcoholism as a racial trait isn't very good... it does explain why they never amount to anything despite being much more long lived then humans. :P

Alcoholism, greed, and gruffness. Not ideal, but it's a fair sight better than arrogant hippy.

Foryn Gilnith
2010-01-17, 03:26 PM
its because elves have a different mindset then humans.
What you describe is still too similar to humans. You assume elves are even vaguely interested in civilization. Elven immortality, lack of penalties to mental stats, and interest in civilization cannot be reconciled. Either they're dominating the world, stupid and vastly inferior, or properly Fey-like in their mentality.

Sinfire Titan
2010-01-17, 03:27 PM
Fluff is the concept your rules exist to portray. Sure, it's sometimes possible to change it and still have the crunch make sense. That doesn't make it irrelevant.

The bottom line is that designing without fluff is like flicking paint at a wall. Yes, some people can make sense of it. I wouldn't call it especially good art though.

And where in the Dwarf statblock does it say they are good drinkers? They get a bonus against poisons, and have a good Con score. They could just be really good at wrestling scorpions/snakes/spiders/Drow; and have developed a strong defense against those tactics (and at least two of those are justified).

Eldan
2010-01-17, 03:31 PM
I'd say that, compared to what they can stand, they don't really drink more than humans. It's just that they need to drink stronger stuff to feel the effects. Some of them are like human fratboys: they drink until they vomit, then some more until they fall over. For them, it's just about twice the amount.

lesser_minion
2010-01-17, 03:34 PM
And where in the Dwarf statblock does it say they are good drinkers? They get a bonus against poisons, and have a good Con score. They could just be really good at wrestling scorpions/snakes/spiders/Drow; and have developed a strong defense against those tactics (and at least two of those are justified).

That's true. The rules don't attempt to portray dwarves as alcoholics, and they could be played differently.

It doesn't change the fact that their other talents amount to being really tough and really good at looking at rocks. I don't really see any need for them in a campaign.

Sinfire Titan
2010-01-17, 03:36 PM
That's true. The rules don't attempt to portray dwarves as alcoholics, and they could be played differently.

It doesn't change the fact that their other talents amount to being really tough and really good at looking at rocks. I don't really see any need for them in a campaign.

Wizards and Druids? Makes sense if they take the right skills.

Vizzerdrix
2010-01-17, 03:38 PM
That's true. The rules don't attempt to portray dwarves as alcoholics, and they could be played differently.

It doesn't change the fact that their other talents amount to being really tough and really good at looking at rocks. I don't really see any need for them in a campaign.

As sexy bar wenches. Save a horse, ride a dwarf.

Also save a door mat, wipe your feet on an elf.

Foryn Gilnith
2010-01-17, 03:39 PM
It doesn't change the fact that their other talents amount to being really tough and really good at looking at rocks. I don't really see any need for them in a campaign.

By that logic, very few of the races are necessary for a campaign.
I wholeheartedly support that logic.

lesser_minion
2010-01-17, 03:39 PM
Wizards and Druids? Makes sense if they take the right skills.

That's the rules doing a bad job. They aren't supposed to portray someone who is good at magic, so why do they?

Elves have badly-written fluff because all of the fanboys seem to think that being arrogant {unprintable} is somehow endearing. As a concept - an isolated group of magic users - elves could be reasonably interesting.

Dwarves would need a total overhaul of their fluff and totally new crunch.

Even worse, the stereotypical elf has more stamina than a human, and the stereotypical dwarf has less. The Con modifiers make no sense whatsoever.

Zaydos
2010-01-17, 03:39 PM
Honestly fluff-wise elves should be at least LA 1 or 2 and not a PC race in my opinion.

My own attempts to fix LA 0 elves was to grant them Elven Dilettante as a bonus feat (I was working on a fix with a similar ability when I got Races of the Wild) and gave them a bonus class skill and bonus ranks in a profession or craft of their choosing.

As for dwarves: they have a mechanically skilled culture with emphasis on personal valor and honor. That's a lot more than gruff alcoholics. The reason dwarves don't do much is that most of them die fighting hordes of goblins before they reach their first century.

Sinfire Titan
2010-01-17, 03:42 PM
That's the rules doing a bad job. They aren't supposed to portray someone who is good at magic, so why do they?

Says who? You? I see nothing in the Dwarf textblock that says they are anti-magic. Hell, Dwarf Cleric is a stereotype as much as Dwarf Fighter is.

lesser_minion
2010-01-17, 03:48 PM
Says who? You? I see nothing in the Dwarf textblock that says they are anti-magic. Hell, Dwarf Cleric is a stereotype as much as Dwarf Fighter is.

The default portrayal of dwarves seems to be that they don't tolerate wizards. I've seen at least one splatbook that claimed that the only arcane casters dwarves tolerate are sorcerers, who are invariably insane (said splatbook apparently forgot that bards weren't divine casters any more...).

Every previous edition portrayed dwarves as not being able to be wizards at all. And while the 3.0 DMG was busy suggesting that the DM might wish to impose restrictions on certain combinations of race and class, guess what the example was?

Zaydos
2010-01-17, 04:28 PM
Let's see what dwarves get:
+2 Con, -2 Cha: Makes them tough warriors who can endure combat.
Ability to use an exotic weapon as a martial weapon: Makes them good warriors.
+2 on saves versus poison: Meh... means they can drink more.
+2 on saves versus Spells: Makes them good at fighting mages.
+1 on attack rolls versus orcs and goblins: Makes them good at fighting orcs and goblins.
+4 to AC against giants: Makes them good at fighting giants.
Stonecunning and skill with metalworking: Makes them good at metalworking and moving through caves.

Now let's see fluff: A race of honorable warriors, who are gruff and rather grouchy living lives in constant threat of battle due to constant battles with orcs, goblins, and giants. They rely on martial power to fight them thus learning how to make the best weapons. They live deep underground and can recognize things about their caves that others do not. They drink more than humans, but their alcoholism matches that found in Norse sagas for the halls of Norsemen (not actually alcoholic but just that drinking is a socially acceptable means of social bonding).

So fluff-wise they're honorable warriors who live fighting hobgoblins, have long lifespans but inferior numbers and win battles by superior strategy, tactics, and training.

Crunch-wise their ability to more easily make decent arms and armor gives them a higher AC than hobgoblins, their war-axes mean they'll 1-hit on average while not being one hit themselves. They have greater accuracy due to their racial bonus. So crunch-wise they are excellent melee warriors, especially against goblinoids, just like their fluff says. They can drink more than humans so they can do it as a social thing without succumbing to drink again matching their fluff.

Yes they can make good mages, since +2 Con with only -2 Cha is enough to rival a bonus feat for a wizard in many builds, but their crunch is obviously made for warriors with the bonuses in melee, ability to wear heavy armor, etc. The fact that +2 Con helps melee every bit as much as a wizard. Crunch-wise dwarves are fighters, fluff-wise they are also fighters. I see no disparity except for the lack of any ability that focuses on their lawful nature.

Also: Heroes' Builder Guidebook's description of dwarf arcane casters made no sense. Why would sorcerers be more common than wizards? Why?

taltamir
2010-01-17, 04:38 PM
+2 Con, -2 Cha: Makes them tough adventurers who can endure combat.

Cha is a dump stat for everyone except a few classes.
Con is a god stat for every class in existence. Mages need it MORE because they get d4 for HP instead of d8 to d12. Which means that they have significantly less HP and need con...
But every adventurer out there can use con.

Coidzor
2010-01-17, 04:50 PM
Even worse, the stereotypical elf has more stamina than a human, and the stereotypical dwarf has less. The Con modifiers make no sense whatsoever.

Um, what? Dwarves, the race that's known for being hardy, are supposed to have less stamina than a human? What stereotypical fantasy are you going off of, buddy?


And where in the Dwarf statblock does it say they are good drinkers? They get a bonus against poisons, and have a good Con score. They could just be really good at wrestling scorpions/snakes/spiders/Drow; and have developed a strong defense against those tactics (and at least two of those are justified).

Alcohol, where it has rules for it, is presented as a poison. So, yeah, that con score boosts their fort save and their bonus against poison also applies to resisting the ill effects of alcohol.

So, yeah, their statblocks do seem to indicate that they'll be more resistant than the baseline human. Against all poisons, alcohol too.

lesser_minion
2010-01-17, 05:02 PM
Also: Heroes' Builder Guidebook's description of dwarf arcane casters made no sense. Why would sorcerers be more common than wizards? Why?

The point is that a character chooses to be a wizard. You don't choose to be a sorcerer.


Um, what? Dwarves, the race that's known for being hardy, are supposed to have less stamina than a human? What stereotypical fantasy are you going off of, buddy?

Try Gimli. I'm not disputing that they can take a hit, but that's "Toughness and Improved Toughness as bonus feats" or "+2 natural armour bonus to AC". LotR depicts them as tiring faster than everything else - i.e. having less stamina, despite being tougher.

Dienekes
2010-01-17, 05:20 PM
Try Gimli. I'm not disputing that they can take a hit, but that's "Toughness and Improved Toughness as bonus feats" or "+2 natural armour bonus to AC". LotR depicts them as tiring faster than everything else - i.e. having less stamina, despite being tougher.

I don't remember a single passage in the books about this at all actually, so if you do have a passage could you post it? I remember a comic line in the movie, however the movie version of Gimli has less to do with the actual Gimli than, well, just about everything. Gimli went from the poetic BA fighter whose kill tally during most the battles out shined even Aragorn (least so it said in a website I read, like hell I'm going to go add all them up) to a character who's played for laughs, and talks about how Dwarves are natural sprinters.

Though if we do go off of Tolkien style races, then both Elves and Dwarves would probably be LA 1, Elves maybe LA 2. They were both very heavily everything humans can do we can do better, and they wouldn't really add up well to DnD designed games.

lesser_minion
2010-01-17, 05:28 PM
I don't remember a single passage in the books about this at all actually, so if you do have a passage could you post it? I remember a comic line in the movie, however the movie version of Gimli has less to do with the actual Gimli than, well, just about everything. Gimli went from the poetic BA fighter whose kill tally during most the battles out shined even Aragorn (least so it said in a website I read, like hell I'm going to go add all them up) to a character who's played for laughs, and talks about how Dwarves are natural sprinters.

Though if we do go off of Tolkien style races, then both Elves and Dwarves would probably be LA 1, Elves maybe LA 2. They were both very heavily everything humans can do we can do better, and they wouldn't really add up well to DnD designed games.

Maybe. Although it's worth pointing out that elves just plain didn't care in the slightest about fatigue (which half-made it into the game).

taltamir
2010-01-17, 05:52 PM
Alcohol, where it has rules for it, is presented as a poison.

Alcohol IS a poison, ask any biologist.

Junkies are known to go through the isle, look for things with the skull and bones symbol, and snort it. thats how you get paint huffers
Alcohol is socially more acceptable as a poison because it is also toxic to bacteria, and during medieval times it was safer to drink beer then water. (nobody knew boiling water is a safer and better of doing things)

Dienekes
2010-01-17, 06:08 PM
Maybe. Although it's worth pointing out that elves just plain didn't care in the slightest about fatigue (which half-made it into the game).

That's all well and good for Tolkien elves, but then they really couldn't be in a dnd party.

Tolkien elves would probably be

+2 Str, +4 Dex, +2 Con, +4 Int, +2 Wis, +4 Cha
Medium sized
Base land speed 40
Immune to all effects of fatigue and encumbrance (though still have a max lift they cannot go over)
Low-light Vision
Darkvision
+2 to all Craft, Diplomacy, Decipher Script, Hide, Knowledge (nature, history, geography), Sense Motive, Spellcraft, Perform
+4 to Listen, Handle Animal, Heal, Search, Spot, Tumble
Favored Class= Not Barbarian

And the Dwarves

+4 Str, +4 Con, +2 Wis, -2 Cha
Medium Sized
Base land speed 30
Darkvision
Stonecunning
+2 saving throws against poison
+4 to Will saves
Maybe add in stability for flavor, though I can't think of any example as such in the books
+4 to Appraise, Craft
Favored Class= Fighter

So can we please move past Tolkien for our fantasy races, LotR was not a tabletop game and didn't try to be balanced for one.