Redwall books

[IsaacTheHungry]

Who here is a fan of the redwall books by Brian Jacques?

Which one is your favorite?

Mine might be Mariel of Redwall.

[hamishspence]

I've read them. They're entertaining enough, but get a bit same-ey past a certain point.

[Force]

Jacques is a great writer, but after a few books one begins to realize that he recycles the same formula endlessly. I like his stuff, but I can't read my way through the series.

[hamishspence]

Robin Jarvis does "animal civilizations" as well- but his universes have a somewhat different feel to them.

[Lord of Rapture]

Those used to be my favorite books in 6th grade.

Then I read more, and they just turned to be about the same thing...

Then I noticed the blatant racism towards the "vermin" species and how much of a Mary Suetopia Redwall is...

Then I read George R. R. Martin.

I haven't looked back since.

[Innis Cabal]

Jacques is a great writer, but after a few books one begins to realize that he recycles the same formula endlessly. I like his stuff, but I can't read my way through the series.


Those used to be my favorite books in 6th grade.

Then I read more, and they just turned to be about the same thing...

Then I noticed the blatant racism towards the "vermin" species and how much of a Mary Suetopia Redwall is...

Then I read George R. R. Martin.

I haven't looked back since.

Thebooks for kids. Not grown adults. Its not racism, its Evil is wrong.

[Manicotti]

Thebooks for kids. Not grown adults. Its not racism, its Evil is wrong.

He could moralize a bit more accurately, then. You'd think he would include the concept that evil is not limited to a half-dozen species of animals whose characters are almost invariably semi-literate sadistic carnivores who backstab each other at a moment's notice. That sounds pretty racist to me. What's evil if not choice, and is something really evil if it's nothing more than instinct with a nice suit?

I read most of Brian Jacques' series, and I met him in person even. I agree that he's a great writer and comedian, but he abuses his most common tendencies to a disgustingly predictable rhythm.

Redtext: On topic, I enjoyed Marlfox, Outcast of Redwall, and The Long Patrol most. I'm a big fan of the camouflage artists he creates.

[Alleine]

I think I have have most of the books, they're pretty good. I should reread some of them. It does get a bit samey but that doesn't put me off too much, especially since a lot of the sameness comes from his copious descriptions of food. Mmmmm, foooooood :smallbiggrin:

I can't remember which one it is, but the book that details the adventures of Sunstripe is probably my favorite. The badgers are one of my favorite groups of creatures simply because they murder everything, but the hare's are slightly ahead because they're all jokers.

Man I enjoyed those when I was a kid.

[Texas_Ben]

Those books were AWESOME!

I've got to disagree about the formularity ruining it, though. Once I realized that he killed off a main character in every book, I enjoyed them much more because suspensful parts were much more suspensful because hey, they might actually die.

[Froogleyboy]

Love 'em, especially moles. oh, and the rabbits (not the hares, the actual rabbits)

[snoopy13a]

He could moralize a bit more accurately, then. You'd think he would include the concept that evil is not limited to a half-dozen species of animals whose characters are almost invariably semi-literate sadistic carnivores who backstab each other at a moment's notice. That sounds pretty racist to me. What's evil if not choice, and is something really evil if it's nothing more than instinct with a nice suit?



Actually, it would be specist :smalltongue:

And there's nothing wrong with being specist, better me eating chicken wings than a chicken eating my legs :smallsmile:

[Starfols]

I remember waaay back when I read the first..3-4 I think. I remember getting mad at the racism speciesism, probably because I had a pet cat, and a few friends of mine had ferrets and rats.
Oh, and the over the top detailed descriptions of food were noticeable, I don't think I liked those either.

Jacques was a quite competent writer, if I remember, so I had fun reading them.

[Soterion]

I think the first four are probably the best, simply because Jacques hadn't settled into a formula yet. But of those four, my favorite was Salamandastron, because the focus of the action wasn't on Redwall at all. The heroes were tragic, especially Urthstripe.* Also, the villains were cool, and believable. "FERAGHO THE ASSASSIN?!"


*The fact that I can remember his name after at least fifteen years astonishes and disturbs me.

[Lord Seth]

He could moralize a bit more accurately, then. You'd think he would include the concept that evil is not limited to a half-dozen species of animals whose characters are almost invariably semi-literate sadistic carnivores who backstab each other at a moment's notice. That sounds pretty racist to me. What's evil if not choice, and is something really evil if it's nothing more than instinct with a nice suit?

I read most of Brian Jacques' series, and I met him in person even. I agree that he's a great writer and comedian, but he abuses his most common tendencies to a disgustingly predictable rhythm.

Redtext: On topic, I enjoyed Marlfox, Outcast of Redwall, and The Long Patrol most. I'm a big fan of the camouflage artists he creates.Odd you'd enjoy Outcast of Redwall if your complaint is about the lack of choice, because that book really went hard against the choice idea, what with one of the "vermin" being taken in by Redwall and raised from a very young age (thus, you can't claim corrupting influences), and...what do you know, turns out evil. The guy does make a last-minute heroic sacrifice but still, it kind of throws out the whole idea of choice. That's what I liked about the ending of Marlfox, it shows that the rats can be good. That said, it's speciesism (and unless you're going to claim that an ant has the same rights as a human, then you're a speciesist), not racism, and you can't really accuse it of being much worse than Lord of the Rings in that department, as LOTR had its own share of Always Chaotic Evil species.

Still, it would be nice if the speciesism were cut down on. I mean, the Mario RPGs (especially the first two Paper Mario games) established that Koopas/Goombas/Lakitus/etc. aren't all evil, just some (mostly the ones that work for Bowser).

[JonestheSpy]

After seeing them around for years and being pretty intrigued, I finally picked up the first one a while back. I was pretty disappointed. Formulaic, not very well thought out in terms of worldbuilding, and just not well written. Not inspired in the slightest to read any more.

I'd kinda wondered if the writing got better as they went on, as in the Discworld books, but the comments here suggest otherwise.

[DraPrime]

I enjoyed them when I was younger, but I haven't read them in a long time. I generally liked the ones that deviated from the standard formula, such as the Legend of Luke.

[Weezer]

As seems to be standard I enjoyed them when I was younger, though they lost their appeal once i realized how formulaic they were.

[hamishspence]

Cats seem to get the best treatment of the "villainous species" (Gingivere, his descendant Squire Gingivere, and to a lesser extent, Verdauga (evil, but pragmatic)

Ferrets seem to get "heroic sacrifice".

And the only example of subverting Redemption Equals Death, is a rat, in The Bellmaker.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

And the only example of subverting Redemption Equals Death, is a rat, in The Bellmaker.

Who is one of the best characters in the series.

But let's see...back when I read these, the following were my favorites:

Pearls of Lutra: Grath Longfletch. What's not to love?
The Long Patrol: While Sergeant Sapwood and Big Ox were among my favorites, the Long Patrol is far and away the best. Ah...how I loved Rockjaw Grang.
The Bellmaker: Finbarr Galedeep + Meldrum the Magnificent + Rab Streambattle + Mariel + Muta + Hon Rosie? How could you say no?
Outcast of Redwall: Because Sunflash the Mace is undeniably awesome.
Lord Brocktree: Mainly for the characters of Dotti and Bucko Bigbones, as I enjoyed the antics of both. The rest I could give or take.

[Fawkes]

Man, it's been so long since I read these. I've forgotten so much about them.

*sniff*

I went to a very small elementary school, and the teachers there used to read them to us. I remember we had a Redwall party one year, and I got my mom to make a Matthias costume.

I know Bellmaker was my favorite book, but I can't for the life of me remember anything about it.

[Platinum_Mongoose]

Ah, back in third and fourth grade these were the books that showed me what books really were. Good times. (They also taught me that life is cheap and everyone cool is doomed to an untimely death.)

Anyway, I loved any book that went to Salamandastron. The volcano fortress, Badger Lords, and Long Patrol were the most interesting parts of the world to me. It had a real richness of history implied in the setting.

[Fawkes]

Will someone who's read the books more recently remind me: was there a character in one of the early books who was defined by his always wearing a mask, or by having "Mask" as part of his name?

[hamishspence]

The otter Mask in Mossflower, master of disguise.

While Lord Brocktree's plot doesn't seem especially distinctive, it still has one of the better verses- as the introduction:


No highland willed from kin deceased,
Nor quest for castles vague, unknown,
For Ungatt Trunn the Fearsome Beast,
Will carve a fortune of his own.
Find the mountain, kill its lord,
Put his creatures to the sword!
When the stars fall from the sky,
Red the blood flows 'neath the sun.
Then let mothers wail and cry,
These are the days of Ungatt Trunn!
Hark! No birds sing in the air!
The earth is shaking everywhere!
His reign of terror has begun,
For these are the days of Ungatt Trunn!

[Fawkes]

The otter Mask in Mossflower, master of disguise.

That's the one!

I remember him. His death scene was the first time I really cried at a book. I was like 8, but still.

[Platinum_Mongoose]

That's the one!

I remember him. His death scene was the first time I really cried at a book. I was like 8, but still.

That guy was awesome! Every book seems to have one character that really stands out like that. Felldoh, in Martin the Warrior, was one such for me. Sapwood and Oxeye from Salamandastron, too. And what was the name the minor villain in Pearls of Lutra who ended up helping the Abbot? Rasconza or some such? I recall her being one of the more complex characters in the series.

[Drakyn]

That guy was awesome! Every book seems to have one character that really stands out like that. Felldoh, in Martin the Warrior, was one such for me. Sapwood and Oxeye from Salamandastron, too. And what was the name the minor villain in Pearls of Lutra who ended up helping the Abbot? Rasconza or some such? I recall her being one of the more complex characters in the series.

Someone who switches sides while not being defined as "dumb enough to become kindly" is definitely more complicated than the average stock Jacques bad guy. Probably that same wit was what put her in "redemption equals owies forever" mode.
That said, the books were a good part of my childhood and it's nice to remember being able to read something weighty. Apart from the racism - speciesism does NOT cut it when everyone in the story is equally-sapient and basically divided on cultural lines, either that or you need a new word for it, because this isn't "stomp-on-a-snail"-analogous anymore - which led to this hilarious little tidbit (http://www.somethingawful.com/d/news/bargain-book-bin-3.php) here, so it's all good (warning: contains racism in comedic situations and hand-written signatures).

[hamishspence]

And what was the name the minor villain in Pearls of Lutra who ended up helping the Abbot? Rasconza or some such? I recall her being one of the more complex characters in the series.

Romsca. Rasconza was the corsair fox who spends most of the book fighting Emperor Ublaz.

[Platinum_Mongoose]

Romsca. Razconza was the corsair fox who spends most of the book fighting Emperor Ublaz.

Oh yeah. Still, in the ballpark's pretty good when I haven't read the book in ten-twelve years, right? :smallcool:

(Edit: Clearly, I rock.)

[hamishspence]

Yup. Haven't read Lord Brocktree in a few years- but the verse stuck.

[pendragon222]

my mum got me some of these books when iwas in fourth of fith grade and i really liked them then. i never read all of them so i still read the occacionally. i liked redwall and mattimeo i also enjoyed rakketey tam. the books are worth reading but there is better literature like terry pratchett or douglas adams or the name of the wind

[Platinum_Mongoose]

Rakkety Tam is relatively new, right? I read them all through Taggerung, which I hated, and sorta thought it was the signal that the series jumped the shark. But if Rakkety Tam is a good one I may revisit these books.

[ForzaFiori]

I read Redwall, Mattimeo, and Martin of Redwall in 4th grade. They're ok, but like most of the other people, I found that the stories seemed to just be repeating, but with different names. Still, the few twists in each made them enough to appeal to me then. Haven't even seen the books in years though

[hanzo66]

Found this. (http://www.somethingawful.com/d/news/bargain-book-bin-3.php) Fun and semi-accurate (if rather exaggerated) satire of Jacques' writing style.

[Drakyn]

Found this. (http://www.somethingawful.com/d/news/bargain-book-bin-3.php) Fun and semi-accurate (if rather exaggerated) satire of Jacques' writing style.

Dagnabbit. I posted that last page - you're coming into this thread, takin' our jobs, danged foreigner's, go back to where you came from, grumble grumble whine complain.
Also, chalk me up for another who got off the Jacques bus at Taggerung. Partly it was because I was getting too old for 'em, but I think the bit where it had the mirror-universe version of Outcast of Redwall's family-unfriendly moral didn't help either (first we learn that people can be inherently bad even when raised with supposedly the nicest folks evar, then we learn that it's impossible to make one of the good guys bad even if you bring him up from birth).

[Arcanoi]

THEY TOOK OUR JERBS!

I had a similar experience with the Redwall books. I read them when I was younger, and they were one of the first fnatasy series I read, I can't say that I don't appreciate their influence on my literary evolution. They were good books, when I wasn't looking for more to my book than a little suspense, some clear 'These are good, these are bad, and Badgars are awesome', and a clear resolution to my plot. Now, I find them nearly unreadable, but I appreciate them for what they are, which is to say, Fantasy-lite novels aimed at Middle-schoolers. And there's nothing wrong with that.

I was disappointed that there's never a wolverine though.

[Jallorn]

[QUOTE=Alleine;7708729]I think I have have most of the books, they're pretty good. I should reread some of them. It does get a bit samey but that doesn't put me off too much, especially since a lot of the sameness comes from his copious descriptions of food. Mmmmm, foooooood :smallbiggrin:
QUOTE]

Ditto

As far as my favorite(s), I'm not sure, I'd have to look at my collection again, but I'd say the ones with Martin, Mariel, and the Bellmaker come to mind. And I do like Sunflash, but I mostly skip the other story in that book.

[Drakyn]

THEY TOOK OUR JERBS!

I had a similar experience with the Redwall books. I read them when I was younger, and they were one of the first fnatasy series I read, I can't say that I don't appreciate their influence on my literary evolution. They were good books, when I wasn't looking for more to my book than a little suspense, some clear 'These are good, these are bad, and Badgers are awesome', and a clear resolution to my plot. Now, I find them nearly unreadable, but I appreciate them for what they are, which is to say, Fantasy-lite novels aimed at Middle-schoolers. And there's nothing wrong with that.

I was disappointed that there's never a wolverine though.

Fix'd :D Agreed on all counts, and as to your last comment...I hear tell there actually finally was a wolverine in Rackety Tam, something like two books after I stopped. I still regret nothing, however, because (this isn't a spoiler, it's a REDWALL BOOK, you know this sort of thing will happen) I also heard tell that he gets killed off by the dramatic and eventful means of being decapitated by a squirrel. Yeah, one squirrel, armed with a blade of finest Plot. Biggest waste of a potentially awesome thing ever - in a storyline where people are endlessly impressed by badgers being such noble asskickers, a gigantic, evil, superbadger would've been incredible.

[Pendragonx]

I remember reading these when I was younger.. awesome books. Mossflower, Mattimeo,Redwall, Martin the warrior, the Bellmaker, Salamandastron, and I might have read one other ..

anyone else find that Jacques spent an inordinate amount of text describing all the animal food dishes? :) Hehe.. it always sounded delicious

[pita]

anyone else find that Jacques spent an inordinate amount of text describing all the animal food dishes? :) Hehe.. it always sounded delicious

He merely described the appetizers compared to George R R Martin's feasts. No man can compete with and older overweight American author. Not even a different old author who may be American, I don't remember, but he could also be British.

[pendragon222]

Rakkety Tam is relatively new, right? I read them all through Taggerung, which I hated, and sorta thought it was the signal that the series jumped the shark. But if Rakkety Tam is a good one I may revisit these books.
i have no idea how new it isi really just picked it up at the libarary cause i needed somthing new to read and there werent any of the dragonriders of pern books that i hadent read yet i mostly liked it csause of the scottish squirlels i have a certain weakness towards scots