Aragorn vs Lan Mandragoran

[Lupy]

Perhaps as some ploy by a coalition of the Dark One and Sauron, Aragorn and Lan are thrown into an arena and made to fight to the death.

Aragorn has just bound the army of the dead to his will, but cannot bring them to the fight. He is not wounded in any way. He has Anduril.

Lan is whisked away from teaching Rand the sword in Fal Dara. He is not wounded in any way. He has the sword of the Malkieri kings. He is not receiving the healing boost from his bond to Moriane.

Both men are the best swordfighters in their worlds, heirs to a long lost kingdom, in love with a woman they cannot marry (at the point of the showdown at least), follow a caster around, and are amazing rangers.

In the opinion of the playground, who would be the last man standing?

The Arena:
400 meters by 400 meters. There are trees around the edges, a band of them 10 maples thick. That area has heavy underbrush. The center is wet grass, three feet high.

[gibbo88]

In the confined area I'd say Lan would get the win because of his endurance and physical strength. If there was more room and bows I'd give it to Aragon, since I don't know if Lan has any skill with the bow at all...I can't remember it being mentioned.

[ondonaflash]

Being unfamiliar with the latter I am forced to side with Aragorn, since Aragorn is, in fact, the archetype off of which the fantasy ranger is born.

[Lupy]

In the confined area I'd say Lan would get the win because of his endurance and physical strength. If there was more room and bows I'd give it to Aragon, since I don't know if Lan has any skill with the bow at all...I can't remember it being mentioned.

I don't recall Lan ever using a bow either, but that aside, Anduril is much longer and broader than the sword of the Malkeri kings. That means Lan would be faster than Aragorn...

If we assume Anduril is as strong as a power-wrought blade, then it's a matter of strength or speed.

[Sanguine]

Lan, you said he loses the healing boost of the bond he still has the increased strength and reflexes. Also I believe in the Eye of the World Lan used a bow while training Mat, Perrin, and Rand though I'm not sure.

[warty goblin]

I don't recall Lan ever using a bow either, but that aside, Anduril is much longer and broader than the sword of the Malkeri kings. That means Lan would be faster than Aragorn...

If we assume Anduril is as strong as a power-wrought blade, then it's a matter of strength or speed.

This is a rather hard judgement to make.

The movie version of Anduril, wielded with both hands, would be a very agile and effective blade and not at all slow. It also has blade geometry well designed for either cutting or thrusting.

Anduril is never explicitly described in the books to my knowledge, but there is some reasonable extrapolation that can be done. The best armor available in Middle Earth is pretty much chainmail with perhaps some supplimentary plate (Imrahil wears bracers).

If we match that up with European armor development, we get something like 7th to 10th or 11th centuries CE. Over a four hundred year period swords obviously varied significantly, but, particularly in Northern Europe, seemed to be generally wide bladed, fullered weapons designed to deliver powerful cutting blows. Given the strong Norse associations with Middle Earth, it's not completely unreasonable to extrapolate that Aragorn's sword would be similar to those used in Scandinavia at the time.

So broad bladed with at least one fuller, double edged, and designed for powerful cuts.

[paddyfool]

Hm. Aragorn never once gets wounded in any of the battles he's in in LOTR, and in at least one of these (the Pelennor fields) this is ascribed to his skill. However, his skills aren't otherwise talked up as much as Lan, who has to have been the most badass swordsman in a rather sword-obsessed series of books. None of Aragorn's opponents are ever described as being particularly skillful; basically, he mows down mooks, offs a troll or two, and sorta sees off the Nasgul at Raventop (book and movie did this two different ways) whereas Lan... again, I'm not sure he ever faces off against any other very skillful swordsman, though he definitely impresses a few, and polishes off some majorly monstrous opponents.

And Anduril vs the sword of the Malkieri kings... dunno.

Too close to call, I'd say, but maybe Lan's by a whisker, because dueling seems a bigger thing in the Wheel of Time, and the bond may also give him an edge.

EDIT: Come to think of it, they're so close to the same character that if they ever made a Wheel of Time movie or series, Viggo could play Lan in his sleep.

[Zaydos]

Don't get me started on the similarities of the stories (Shire and Two Rivers, Orcs and Trollocs, Nazgul and Mirdaal).

Honestly I'd say probably Aragorn. If Lan has the warder cloak he might be able to get the advantage of stealth, otherwise Aragorn is probably stealthier. Aragorn might not be as well versed in dueling forms but he knows his stuff and I'd give Anduril an edge over one of the power wrought swords, even Lan's.

[Lupy]

@Warty Goblin:

The Sword of Malkeri Kings is a Katana though, wouldn't that make it faster than a circa 9th century longsword? Certainly the Anduril of the movies is wickedly fast.

I'm glad to see I'm not the only one who can't decide...

Does anyone else think that Aragorn might have an advantage in the forest because he lives for some time in the heavily forested Eriador? He could possibly lay an ambush for Lan.

[warty goblin]

@Warty Goblin:

The Sword of Malkeri Kings is a Katana though, wouldn't that make it faster than a circa 9th century longsword? Certainly the Anduril of the movies is wickedly fast.


In some ways perhaps, but a katana is also a less versitile blade than a longsword. Remember the katana only has two striking surfaces: the forwards edge and the point, and the point isn't particularly well designed for thrusting.

Now on balance a 9th century longsword is probably about as effective a thrusting blade as a katana, but it is double edged. Unfortunately there aren't any really good records of Dark Ages swordsmanship, but from later combat manuals it is pretty clear that the second 'short' edge greatly expanded the number of cuts available to a swordsman from most stances. It certainly seems reasonable to suppose that the short edge was also utilized in Dark Ages swordsmanship, since otherwise there would be good reasons not to have the short edge- namely a harder (and so sharper) long edge. Single edged cutting blades such as the salx existed at the time, but are destinct from swords and accorded much lower prestiege, so it's not as if the idea of a one edged blade never crossed anybody's mind.

In terms of speed of recovery and such like, I'm really not qualified to say. I can tell you that the two blades would be very close to each other in weight, although the katana is designed to easily allow the use of a second hand. The Icelandic Sagas tell of Viking warriors using their swords with both hands, but nobody is really sure if, and if so how, they could do that effectively.

My personal feelings on the matter are that in general- and assuming equal craftsmanship- the Dark Ages/Early Medieval swords are simply a better design. They give up a little bit of cutting power, but are still capable of producing gawdawful injuries with their edges. In exchange they give their wielders more options on the field of battle while allowing for a shield. That's a trade I'd willingly make any day.

[Kneenibble]

Well I haven't the expertise on weaponry that other posters have demonstrated, but I can say that Anduril is reforged from the remnants of Narsil, a blade made in the First Age -- so it's definitely on par, as far as magical strength and resilience, with a Power-wrought sword. It hits the same cluster of symptoms as other magical legendary swords in the Tolkienverse.

Lan's ranging in the Blight gives him at least as much of a woodcraft edge as Aragorn's ranging in the wild hills and woods.

For me it's just easier to imagine Lan winning because of the detailed descriptions of duels in Wheel of Time. As paddyfool said, the battles in Lord of the Rings are usually big-scale and are represented in much different terms. I can picture Aragorn chopping wildly amidst a frenzy of orcs, but not flowing between Toad Burping In The Breeze and Sparrow Hits Window and stuff.

Edit Although to survive the kind of melees he does, I suppose he would have to be a rockstar with the sword moves like that... huh. My inner images are experiencing a paradigm shift.

I do think Viggo is a bit too pretty to play Lan.

[Soras Teva Gee]

This ends in a inconclusive tie as their respective dooms will not be fulfilled in such a match.

If I had to pick though: On one hand Lan is the pretty much acknowledged best in a world that takes its swordsmanship very seriously, so seriously its one of the few traditions to survive the Breaking. And dealing with the Blight is well beyond any environment found on Middle Earth for lethality. On the other hand Aragorn is more experienced in sheer age and has that whole vague Tolkien heroic power that lets say an elf duel a dark god if he's got enough of it. I dare say Aragorn has more destiny/hero behind him, and might even be ta'veren if he lived in Randland.

So if I had to pick Aragorn, though he isn't necessarily more skilled. And considering we are denying Lan the boost of his Warder bond. Tolkien characters though are really really hard to use in a versus.

[Grimlock]

Hmmm, difficult!

As has already been said by many, what makes this tricky is that Jordan describes his battles/duels in far more detail than Tolkein. However, Aragorn must be a consumate swordsman/fighter to survive as many battles as he has, I mean he even faces down the nazghul using only a flaming branch!

Lan takes on and fights 7 (?) opponents in the "New Spring" short story, and that is as a young man, so he undeniably will have got better over time.

So, with no clear argument in mind I shall go with Aragorn...because, well umm...well... just because I guess!
Good match up though!

[GoC]

On the other hand Aragorn is more experienced in sheer age and has that whole vague Tolkien heroic power that lets say an elf duel a dark god if he's got enough of it.
Or kill a dragon that's so large it can apparently crush small mountains.:smallsigh:
My suspension of disbelief does not extend that far.:smallannoyed:

[Lupy]

I dare say Aragorn has more destiny/hero behind him, and might even be ta'veren if he lived in Randland.

That is a very good point I had overlooked...

I now believe Aragorn would win, Lan is not ta'veren.

\/ A nazgul, any of them, would make a myrdraal take the fetal position from fear. And while trollocs are bigger than Uruks, they seem much worse at fighting. And Aragorn is no pushover, he goes head to head with the Mouth of Sauron, the Ghost King, and still had time to convince Elrond to let him marry Arwen.

[Jayngfet]

You're forgetting Lans sheer willpower and mental discipline here.

After all, could you hang around Nyneve all day and not attempt to snap her neck, or at least cut off her braid while she sleeps?

More seriously I think Lan has if nothing else speed and strength on Aragorn. Even if we assume both are equal in swordsmanship(which is hard, since the second greatest swordsman got the title by beating him twice out of seven rounds) there's the fact that the opponents they face are vastly different. A single Myrdrall is akin to a Nazgul and a Trolloc would likley tower over an Uruk Hai.

Lan essentially kills Nazgul over and over, outnumbering him, and even surrounded by the best infantry they can bring.

[skywalker]

Aragorn isn't chopped liver in a fight, clearly, but the point was never that he was the greatest fighter. He was the greatest leader. Gimli and Legolas might be better fighters than him, but they can't lead an army the way he can.

I know absolutely nothing of ths Mandragoran guy, but I vote for him based on the fact that Aragorn was legendary, but for a different reason.

[chiasaur11]

Regularly fights Nazgul?

Part of the point of those guys was that there was no way to stop them for anything but a short stretch in a fight. They don't die. And stabbing doesn't even slow them much.

And they get 1 hit in, you're worse than a dead man if you can't get to really, really good medical care really fast.

You fight those things as your basic enemy?

You're either the Doom Marine or a liar.

[Jayngfet]

Regularly fights Nazgul?

Part of the point of those guys was that there was no way to stop them for anything but a short stretch in a fight. They don't die. And stabbing doesn't even slow them much.

And they get 1 hit in, you're worse than a dead man if you can't get to really, really good medical care really fast.

You fight those things as your basic enemy?

You're either the Doom Marine or a liar.

Myrddraall. They can pick a large man up one handed, detect any magic in the area, if you stab them their acidic blood will ruin the blade, and they can spit acid to ruin it anyway. They can shadowjump hundreds of miles with no time limit or established distance limit. They can bond hundreds of trollocs each at least nine feet and command them to do their bidding. They don't even die when they are killed. If you manage to kill one it's body still thrashes wildly swinging a sword with the soul of an innocent in it that creates wounds that never heal.

They are literally seen as monsters of legend, each one thought to be an avatar of fear and until the forsaken and gholam awoke they made even the vilest darkfriend wet themselves with fear. If you even jokingly swear to the dark one, even as a child you are bound. If one of these creatures finds you, and if they want to they will, they can force you to do as they please and they are pleased by eating and raping people.

And to make matters worse they are silent. Even the wind won't make their cloaks move, if they don't want to make a noise or movement nothing can get them to. They can literally appear next to you one moment and be gone the next, taking their equally silent mount with them. They don't even have to be there. Just send in one random raven, rat, any carrion feeder. That thing will watch you, report back, and then he knows where you are and where you're going.


And Al'Lan Mandragoran essentially eats these guys for breakfast. In a world where everyone and their grandma knows how to swordfight, he is the greatest. His blade is unbreakable, as is his will. If he wants to go somewhere nothing short of someone magically bound to give him orders can say otherwise. He will cross mountains, rivers, small armies, just to get to where he has to go.

[Zaydos]

Also remember Aragorn had elven blood. It gave him an extended life span and made him more than normal for a human. Also at least in the movie he can fall off a cliff and get better in a day, possibly because said elven blood gives him better endurance and faster healing. He is also said to be the reincarnation of Beren who was a whole can of awesome (got his hand bit off by a giant wolf).

I'm not the most familiar with weaponry, but a viking longsword was by no means slow and is actually a really fast weapon that strikes hard. I don't remember if in the book it was a one-handed sword or a two-handed sword (like in the movie) though.

Finally as far as stealth is concerned I'd give Aragorn the edge because the Elven Cloaks seemed somewhat more effective than the Warders' cloaks.

Also by Wheel of Time rules Aragorn is very definitely Ta'veren, even by Tolkien's he's someone reborn by fate and who has a special destiny. Then there is the nazguls are much stronger than the myrdraal mentioned above, and despite one of them being destined not to die by any mortal man they fled him because he was that epic.

[Jayngfet]

His elven blood is what makes this not an open and shut case. Until the OP arbitrarily removed it Lan had a healing factor to go with his super strength, super speed, and super senses.

[chiasaur11]

Wait.

These Myrddraall things can teleport anywhere instantly, and you can't heal from their attacks.

How does anyone deal with them, again?

I mean, assuming the things are not, in fact, dumber than the average current Heroes writer, that should be a recipe for instagibs against anyone they want.

Send, oh, twenty after a hero. You know where he is, thanks to the super spy network. Stab from all directions. Teleport out.

I don't care how good a guy is. Teleport in when he's offguard from all angles, giving no sign, and he's going to, at bare minimum, get nicked. Which he will never heal from. And you'll receive minor injuries at best, breaking his sword. Even sending one in should do it if the hero type's sleeping.

Then repeat. Should take less than a week to ensure almost anyone dead with that sort of trick, assuming there aren't any limits you failed to mention. If they can be stopped by ANYONE as easy as you say (baring ill defined superhuman abilities, far beyond "better with a sword than any man alive"), well, they're stupid beyond the limits of mortal comprehension.

[Jayngfet]

He moves so constantly by gateway nobody knows where he is one day to the next, and disguise magic is a part of his repertoire as he's shown. He can literally be a random person in one town and another on the other side of the continent the next day.

When he IS at home he's constantly guarded by at least sixty of the best warriors the world has to offer, members of the same society having shown themselves capable of taking down three myrddraal at once with about five of them(Admittedly they had help but still).

He's also constantly training in swordfighting, staff fighting, archery, knife fighting, hand to hand comabt. There's also the fact that hes the equivalent to an epic spellcaster at this point.

And if that weren't bad enough he literally warps probability every which way. He can duck RIGHT as you swing on some random other matter.

[Kneenibble]

Wait.

These Myrddraall things can teleport anywhere instantly, and you can't heal from their attacks.

How does anyone deal with them, again?

I mean, assuming the things are not, in fact, dumber than the average current Heroes writer, that should be a recipe for instagibs against anyone they want.

Send, oh, twenty after a hero. You know where he is, thanks to the super spy network. Stab from all directions. Teleport out.

I don't care how good a guy is. Teleport in when he's offguard from all angles, giving no sign, and he's going to, at bare minimum, get nicked. Which he will never heal from. And you'll receive minor injuries at best, breaking his sword. Even sending one in should do it if the hero type's sleeping.

Then repeat. Should take less than a week to ensure almost anyone dead with that sort of trick, assuming there aren't any limits you failed to mention. If they can be stopped by ANYONE as easy as you say (baring ill defined superhuman abilities, far beyond "better with a sword than any man alive"), well, they're stupid beyond the limits of mortal comprehension.

The Myrddraal can't teleport anywhere instantly at all, they are restricted to the Ways or conventional travel because if they enter a Gate made by the One Power they die instantly. Their numbers are also limited because they're difficult to spawn and properly equip.

You should read Knife of Dreams, though, to get a sense of how efficiently "the hero" deals with a surprise attack en masse nearly how you describe.

[chiasaur11]

The Myrddraal can't teleport anywhere instantly at all, they are restricted to the Ways or conventional travel because if they enter a Gate made by the One Power they die instantly. Their numbers are also limited because they're difficult to spawn and properly equip.

You should read Knife of Dreams, though, to get a sense of how efficiently "the hero" deals with a surprise attack en masse nearly how you describe.

Ah. See, that's the kind of limit I was looking for. Good to know.

And I'll try to look at that. Should be enlightening, thanks.

[Kneenibble]

It's really an epic blow-your-hair-back-even-though-it's-a-book kind of battle. :D

[ZeroNumerous]

@Elaborating on Myddraal:

Indeed they can teleport. Specifically, they are able to leap from shadow to shadow with no definitive limitation on the range of this shadow-leap. Further: They are able to disappear into a shadow and remain there for an undefined amount of time. Finally, the injuries made by their swords are almost always fatal unless healed by the One Power due to a festering evil taint inlaid in the blade during it's creation.

Another of their interesting abilities is the supernatural ability to instill fear in anything they look at. They also have superb vision despite a total lack of eyes(or even eye sockets), superb swordsmanship skills, strength on par of a bodybuilder and the speed of veteran lightweight boxer. On top of this, they are able to mentally or magically link together groups of trollocs(effectively man-animal hybrids that stand in for orcs) into a cohesive and well-drilled fighting unit. Fortunately this linking ability has the side-effect of tying each trollocs' life to the myddraal, but unfortunately this means every trolloc linked to one will fight to death to defend that myddraal. Of course, their last ability is the most dangerous. Myddraal, even when mortally wounded, will not die until sunset. Their bodies will continue thrashing about and even wounding further people until it is destroyed or it's limbs are removed.

In closing, I would say myddraal are equal to nazgul save for the nazgul's immortality and flying dragon mounts. Fortunately, myddraal are very rare as they are a random throwback of the human side of trollocs. This requires trollocs to be forced to breed with humans, and trollocs much prefer to eat them instead. Finally, armoring/arming myddraals require the sacrifice of one or more humans whom are slain and their souls stored in the myddraal's weapons or armor.

And yes, both Lan and Rand can regularly kill myddraal with relative ease. The first because of his superhuman sword skill combined with the bond with his Aes Sedai, while the second kills them because he is the Dragon Reborn.

[Arcanoi]

It's difficult to apply Lord of the Rings characters to Vs. threads. And there's a simple reason for that.

Lord of the Rings characters are terrible.

No, not like that.

Their Wrath is terrible. Their Presence is terrible. Their Visage is terrible. They are, in general, so mighty that the Author cannot be dignified to tell you how terrible their might is, beyond that, yes, it is indeed terrible.

Tolkein's literary prowess is not in his individual descriptions of a character's actions. Much of the Awesome in his book happens in brief descriptions akin to "And I fought the Balrog from the lowest depths of the Mines to the highest mountaintop, and there, on the crest of Durin's Tower, I cast him down, before I myself fell into darkness."

Now the problem with this literary technique is that it doesn't tell you what Gandalf can actually DO, other than fighting and winning against a Balrog. It doesn't say HOW he killed it, it just says that he does, because, after all, his might is terrible.

It's difficult to gauge the strength of each character beyond 'Oh, they're a lot stronger than Red Shirts'. You get hints of things like when Galadriel suggests that if Frodo were to give her the ring, she could kick Sauron in the balls, knee him in the face when he keels over, and then visit upon him such terrible wrath as to be literarily indescribable. Power in Lord of the Rings seems to be a very relative term, and is thus difficult to gauge.

Edit-

Based on this, I couldn't really give a definitive conclusion between Lan and Aragorn. However, I will say that a Nazgul would beat the crap out of a Myydraal with ease. Each of the Nazgul was once a terrible Lord who was once a Numenorean, or at least on par with their might, men so mighty that fighting, beating, and then humbling Sauron was just a minor border skirmish for them, so insignificant that it didn't even get its own Age.

[Jayngfet]

And Thats Terrible (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Ptitle643yzv8u?from=Main.AndThatsTerrible).

I think the main problem again is no real power scale is set, nothing is really described in detail.


Likewise a Nazgul probably is, but their powers are even less defined. We know they can't be killed except by specific conditions(kinda like Myrddraal), have blades that do horrible things at even a glancing wounds(seeing more similarities), it's clear the latter is based on the former.

However, Tolkien said "They have no great physical power against the fearless,but what they have, and the fear that they inspire, is enormously increased in darkness" (Letters, 210)

A Myrddaal is essentially a fearful thing on it's own. Across the world mothers use them as bogeymen and historians speak of the wars they lead that rocked nations. Their allies fear they'll wind up eaten the moment one is in the mood and their enemies fear them because of the hundreds of legends surrounding them. A Myrrdaal inspires fear without any aura, it's the fear that demons are real, they have actual powers unlike any you've seen before, and that they can come for you wherever you are.

However even if you keep a level head and have courage the actual powers don't go away. A Myrrdaal can still throw you around with his off hand alone, he can still detect any casting you do, he will always know if magic is used in his presence and how close. If either gender does anything short of fully destroying his body he will continue to thrash, cutting with unhealable wounds for hours afterwards.

[Kneenibble]

@Elaborating on Myddraal:

Indeed they can teleport. Specifically, they are able to leap from shadow to shadow with no definitive limitation on the range of this shadow-leap. Further: They are able to disappear into a shadow and remain there for an undefined amount of time. Finally, the injuries made by their swords are almost always fatal unless healed by the One Power due to a festering evil taint inlaid in the blade during it's creation.

You make it sound like they can go *blip* Illian *blip* Shayol Ghul *blip* Tremalking *blip* Manhattan *blip* Berlin. That's not how it works. Give textual evidence that they can "teleport" (preferrably not from the Gathering Storm because I haven't read it yet :smalltongue:) otherwise stop fear-mongering in the name of your accursed Great Lord, we're afraid of them enough.

Edit As for the Nazgul and Myrddraal, that's interesting. As DCGAKDZWEAT mentioned, the Nazgul's powers and menace are of such a character or calibre that they are unrepresentable. It might be another case of being able to -imagine- the Fade's capabilities in a fight so much more vividly than the Nazgul's, but a part of me wants to credit the Myrddraal.

It's also like someone said about Lan and Aragorn... the Ringwraiths were great and terrible leaders in the heyday of their ringy glory, their powers have to do with mass terror and control more than violence or destruction. That, and they seem to have grown weaker with time.

Myrddraals, on the other hand, while one of their most desirable qualities is the loose and rather tentative organization of Trollocs, do death. They will CUT YOU. They're -in the world-, even if not exactly of it: solid fast sharp pointy matter, instead of wraiths borrowing power while being ever sucked clean of their own remaining life forces.

[Megaduck]

You make it sound like they can go *blip* Illian *blip* Shayol Ghul *blip* Tremalking *blip* Manhattan *blip* Berlin. That's not how it works. Give textual evidence that they can "teleport" (preferrably not from the Gathering Storm because I haven't read it yet :smalltongue:) otherwise stop fear-mongering in the name of your accursed Great Lord, we're afraid of them enough.


No textual evidence (I don't have my books with me) but I have to second that they can shadow walk. It's mentioned a couple of times that to keep them from escaping you have to keep the area totally lit. Aringor comments in the forsaken tea party that even they don't know how they can shadow walk and that he tested a thousand to destruction trying to figure it out.

Mostly in the books it's used as a stealth hi/bye.

[Catch]

No textual evidence (I don't have my books with me) but I have to second that they can shadow walk. It's mentioned a couple of times that to keep them from escaping you have to keep the area totally lit. Aringor comments in the forsaken tea party that even they don't know how they can shadow walk and that he tested a thousand to destruction trying to figure it out.

Mostly in the books it's used as a stealth hi/bye.

Shadow-walking isn't disputed, I don't think, only the range. All the instances I can recall suggest it's a short-range ability, linked to their nature. Aginor suggested they were "slightly out of phase with time and reality," (and he would know) which would explain short hops between shadows, but there's no basis for implying Myrddraal can cross distances comparable to Traveling. I can't imagine it being reliable at more than a few hundred feet, maybe a mile or so at most.

Coming back to Aragorn vs Lan, this is a mismatched fight, despite the similarities. If we're looking at story cognates, Aragorn : Rand :: The Lord of the Rings : The Wheel of Time.

Aragorn's function is to unite the kingdoms of men, and is a primary character, where Lan is a mentor figure, in addition to being sculpted from granite. They're both rangers, kings-in-exile and superb swordsmen, but in terms of plot roles, Aragorn and Lan are worlds apart.

Pitting the two against one another, I'd give this to Lan, because while battle is what Aragorn does from time to time, Lan is battle. Even the Aiel respect him, and he's a filthy sword-wielding wetlander.

[Optimystik]

Basically, I agree with DCGFTW. LotR is far too light on specifics to make vs. battles meaningful.

Comparing the swords is also difficult - Anduril can be broken, Lan's CAN'T, but then he didn't exactly slash at Sauron/Shai'tan with it either.


In the confined area I'd say Lan would get the win because of his endurance and physical strength. If there was more room and bows I'd give it to Aragon, since I don't know if Lan has any skill with the bow at all...I can't remember it being mentioned.

Lan trains the boys with their bows in book one (and is suitably impressed by their 1337 Tw0 R1v3r5 archery.) I'm assuming that he's used one in the past, but isn't exactly Birgitte/Legolas.


I can picture Aragorn chopping wildly amidst a frenzy of orcs, but not flowing between Toad Burping In The Breeze and Sparrow Hits Window and stuff.

Okay, I found this quite funny.

[ZeroNumerous]

Shadow-walking isn't disputed, I don't think, only the range. All the instances I can recall suggest it's a short-range ability, linked to their nature.

While it is entirely possible that their shadow-walk is short range: We simply don't know whether it is or isn't. The only myddraal we see talking for any length of time is Shaidar Haran, and he most certainly is not something to base any theory of general myddraal strength upon. Nonetheless: Even if it's a range as short as thirty feet it's still going to kill whole platoons of men. After all, myddraal normally attack during the night and even with fifty torches someone's still casting a shadow somewhere. I would believe this is infinitely more terrifying than a giant flying lizard and it's cloaked-except-not-really rider.

[GoC]

You're either the Doom Marine or a liar.
Or your average D&D adventurer.:smallbiggrin:


Tolkein's literary prowess is not in his individual descriptions of a character's actions.
Tolkein was not a good writer. He was a good world designer and trendsetter.

[Lupy]

^ Lies! You dare question the all-mighty Tolkien! :smallfurious: ( :smalltongue: )

Tolkien's use of countenance and wrath indicates their "magic." There is no magic as such in Middle Earth, but wrath makes men powerful enough to slay huge dragons, and countenance lets an elf duel a God and wound him. Turin and Beren and Tuor all have sufficient wrath to fight Rand, or a Forsaken, but Aragorn is not near that level. I do believe that anyone who can fight off the Nazgul on Weathertop, kill the Mouth of Sauron, and charge the Black gates is at least Lan's equal.

[ZeroNumerous]

... Turin and Beren and Tuor all have sufficient wrath to fight Rand, or a Forsaken, ...

While I don't disagree that any of them could easily be a match for a 'normal' Forsaken, I disagree quite heavily that they could be a match for Rand or Moridin. The first has access to Callandor and Choedan Kal. Callandor alone is, supposedly, capable of leveling cities when utilized by even a weak channeler. And Choedan Kal is several orders of magnitude above Callandor. The second draws upon the direct power of the Dark One, and by proxy the Creator. For all intents and purposes, fighting Moridin could be considered fighting the Dark One.

[Anteros]

Not that it's really relevant to the conversation, but I have to agree that the shadow-walk is short range. When one of the critters runs from Lan in book one, he comments that he can feel it getting farther and farther away.

Seems to support the theory that they can only jump short distances, because if it could get far away in one jump, it would.

As a side note: These things are made of fear. It's literally impossible to look at one without being afraid, even for people who are normally fearless. Yet it still pees itself and runs when it sees Lan.

[ZeroNumerous]

As a side note: These things are made of fear. It's literally impossible to look at one without being afraid, even for people who are normally fearless. Yet it still pees itself and runs when it sees Lan.

"Myddraal make men sweat. Padan Fain makes myddraal sweat."

[Kneenibble]

"Myddraal make men sweat. Padan Fain makes myddraal sweat."

"And ice peppers make Padan Fain sweat."

The shadow-walk is short range based on all the circumstances I can remember from the books. They can use it over and over again to travel long distances, but not in one blip. This is fact.

@ Optimystik: :smallbiggrin:

[ZeroNumerous]

The shadow-walk is short range based on all the circumstances I can remember from the books. They can use it over and over again to travel long distances, but not in one blip. This is fact.

It probably is. Either way, it's still enough to accurately gauge their level of power.

Aragorn successfully fights a bunch of ghosts in bedsheets, a really old blind guy and a crapton of orcs. Lan fights a bunch of blind teleporters, craptons of manbearpigs and the occasional magician. I think we can safely say Lan has the more dangerous enemies, and thus would win in a battle between him and Aragorn.

[bibliophile]

That's al'Lan Mandragoran to you.

While LotR is awesome I must agree with the above, namely that not enough detail is available about Aragon to make a meaningful comparison.

[Goonthegoof]

How do the cloaks compare?

[ZeroNumerous]

Both cloaks magically make them semi-invisible while hiding.

[Lupy]

Lan's seems to be more effective than Aragorn's; he can literally disappear in plain sight, something no one in the Fellowship, including Aragorn, can do.

[Soras Teva Gee]

Not really, since I don't recall Lan performing any major feats of stealth in daylight. (And Whitecloaks are blind as bats anyways)

Given that Frodo and Sam hide from an entire army in daylight and Aragorn has the same cloak I'm not inclined to give an advantage there.

[Jayngfet]

Of course hobbits are naturally stealthy. If they don't want to a hobbit won't make a sound when walking through a dense forest, and this is with no training..

There's also the whole size thing. Hobbits are so small at a distance with any camoflauge it's hard to spot them because they're so damn tiny.

[Kneenibble]

Warder cloaks are peremptorily described, every time a Warder is around, as making the parts they cover disappear from sight, to the point of transparency, so long as the wearer is still. When moving they have an eye-wrenching shift of colours.

Again, Jordan writes with a film-like sensational realism against Tolkien's myth-like narrative that leaves a great deal to the imagination, but the power of Lan's cloak is easy to imagine at least on par with the elven cloak that Aragorn is given.

[Dexam]

You're forgetting Lans sheer willpower and mental discipline here.

Aragorn isn't exactly lacking in this department either. After all, he did go in a literal head-to-head (mind-to-mind?) contest of wills with Sauron via the Palantir of Orthanc, and won. How would you rate Lan's chances in a direct contest of wills with Shai'tan?

[Jayngfet]

Sauron isn't even on the level of Shai'tan. When free Sauron could be beaten as it was stated, by some factions in an older age.

Meanwhile the hundred companions, the strongest male channelers in the age of legends, presumably with sa'angrael coming out the wazoo, brushed the dark one with a single piece of magic. This one connection didn't corrupt via one object. It drove every single male channeler mad indefinatly. The dark one didn't even get out into the world, he kinda tapped it for a few seconds. As a result mountains melted, oceans boiled away and rose back, 99.9 percent of civilization was lost and that was just to make a crude seal. Sauron is beholden to Morgoth, Shai'tan is beholden to no one. He is equal and opposite a force that created the universe, and as some think hundreds more. Shai'tans mind even contacting his followers casually is enough to make them wince at the sheer volume of it. Even him attempting to help you with the true source will eventually drive you mad.

Sauron was one of many spirits created as a thought, and far from the greatest. Shai'tan is meant to be nothing less than a force of nature that would destroy the world in moments were he to so much as get up and stretch his legs.

[Catch]

Aragorn isn't exactly lacking in this department either. After all, he did go in a literal head-to-head (mind-to-mind?) contest of wills with Sauron via the Palantir of Orthanc, and won. How would you rate Lan's chances in a direct contest of wills with Shai'tan?

Holding a seeing stone is not a "direct" contest of wills - it's like talking to Darth Vader on a cellphone.

Speaking to his will, Lan managed to survive after Moiraine was "killed." Most Warders go into a blood frenzy and die trying to avenge their Aes Sedai, others seek their death in the Blight. He was certainly disturbed for a time, but Lan held it together and actually found happiness, which is said to be near-impossible for Warders who've lost their charges.

[Jayngfet]

Lan had help. Remember the unusual warder savingg variation that passed the bond on to another woman, that saved three warders before him?

[Zaydos]

Technically Sauron realized that fighting Numenor would be dangerous to him so he instead decided to surrender to destroy it from within. He followed by corrupting them and causing the gods themselves to destroy Numenor, and unfortunately was smote down with them. His physical power was thus reduced into a mere shadow of what it was before, and even with the ring he would still be weaker in ways than he was before.

As for the cloaks, the elven cloaks hid the hobbits without cover on a stony field in full view from an entire army. Aragorn was, without a cloak, as stealthy as an elf and far stealthier than any hobbit. The main limitation was that the cloaks were noticeably worse in unnatural environments, or if not being actively used.

As for how much power is concerned I will give you that Shai'tan is has more raw power than Sauron, especially the shadow of a being the 3rd Age Sauron is. Despite this Sauron had the power of will that Gandalf was scared to use the Palantir (stating that it was a direct contact of minds and contest of wills), and the taint of the ring seems rather stronger than that on Saidin. Except for hobbits (who are specifically resistant) the power of the ring is such that it corrupts even the strongest of will if they covet it and use it, with several implications that once is enough (Gandalf wouldn't even touch it for this reason) which is like if every male channeler went mad after one use of Saidin.

As for the 100 nothing compared to the Last Alliance between men and elves.

Honestly: If you were asking me which books were more mythic it'd be LotR; if you were asking me which books were better I'd stare at you for a while, throw them all at you and say stop asking hard questions (both were my favorite author while I was reading the series); if you asked me which series I'd rather re-read I'd say Wheel of Time (still haven't read Knife of Dreams [can't afford it and don't have time]); as to who is better between Aragorn and Lan? In single combat it's close, when extended beyond it's Aragorn, and given his fate is twisted around me nature (he's the rebirth of the greatest hero who opposed the equivalent of Shai'tan) making him Ta'veren which would turn it in his favor. If I think deeper on this subject I will be forced to remember just how derivative several parts of the Wheel of Time were from Tolkien which I don't want to do because I love both books.

I will admit in the end I'd give the fight to Aragorn in part because he's the original; in part because he's ta'veren regardless of world (he's the Fated King and has destiny twist around him in Middle Earth which is the same as WoT ta'veren); Narsil was broken by fate against a deity which even a power wrought blade couldn't withstand (they can be destroyed via enough use of the power) and Anduril was theoretically stronger (just like Gram was better than the Sword of the Volsungs it was reforged from); finally it's close enough in everything else (all we know is that both are from worlds that value battle skill above all else and are the best warriors in their worlds) that I feel alright letting rule of cool decide the final bit.

Also this thread is now making me realize how derivative Tolkien is of Norse myth :smallannoyed:

[warty goblin]

Holding a seeing stone is not a "direct" contest of wills - it's like talking to Darth Vader on a cellphone.


Except for the bit where it can almost kill you, or drive you mad. Pippin, as I recall, did not fare too well from his little forrey into Palantir sightseeing, and Sauron drove Denethor to try to set himself and his son on fire. Now maybe they've really upgraded the menace features since the last time I owned a cell phone, but that's a far cry from any of the conversations I ever had...

[kpenguin]

Holding a seeing stone is not a "direct" contest of wills - it's like talking to Darth Vader on a cellphone.

If you do it without being force strangled, that's pretty impressive. :smalltongue:

[Jayngfet]

Hundred nothing.... I think you need perspective. The Asha'man is the greatest soldier the world has seen in thousands of years. Outnumbered thirty three to one and most of them being only half trained they slaughtered every Shiado who attacked them. The Shiado are Aiel, who previously went where they wanted where they wanted. Each one was able to slaughter other warriors with ease and Aiel maidens of the spear are able to fight Myrddraal and live. A single Asha'man can reduce a half a dozen of them to Ludicrous Gibs with a single wave of his goddamn hand. In a panic they go against everything they believe in, the things their culture was NAMED after just for a half a chance at victory. When the smoke and bloody mist cleared none of the Asha'man had a single scratch, and no one got within thirty feet of them.

Now, they're going on basic weaves taught over the course of a month. Each of the hundred companions were the greatest of thier age, which is called the age of legends for a reason here. They knew techniques Asha'man can't dream of. They were by comparison to a fully trained Asha'man gods of war.

This was one hundred Aes'Sedai from the age of legends, fully trained and equipped with a lifetime of study behind them compared to an Asha'mans few months.

The alliance can't even compare.

[Bob_the_Mighty]

My knowledge of LotR isn't all that extensive, but I have to vote for Lan here. As was mentioned, in a world where almost everyone knows how to use a sword, the very best are guaged by how close they are to Lan's level. For tough opponents, Lan was jumped by Riatin, an amazing swordsman, out of nowhere, and iirc he be him without a scratch. Steele was also an amazing swordsman, and he earned respect as one of the best by allegidly beating Lan 2 rounds out of 7. Lan took trips into the blight alone without being seriously wounded. Some one mentioned Aragorn charging the black gates; Lan fully enteded to go to the blight alone to attack a Darkspawn army.

[ZeroNumerous]

@Last Alliance v One Hundred Companions:

Lews Therin Telamon. He personally wrestled with Shai'tan to seal the Bore(imperfectly, but sealed all the same). He survived. Even assuming that Sauron is Shai'tan's equal(which is not entirely accurate but I'll get to that later): Any mortal who ever personally dealt with the Dark Lord ended up getting a severe case of the Dead. Lews Therin Telamon was the baddest of asses among the Hundred Companions. Conversely, the baddest of asses among the Last Alliance got smushed in seconds when he tried to solo Sauron. The Last Alliance simply does not compare to the Hundred Companions.

@Sauron v Shai'tan:

Sauron is powerful, ya. But he's a lieutenant of the Big Bad. He's the fall guy's fall guy. When Team Evil goes out to dinner, they all ditch Sauron with the check. Shai'tan touched the world once. A single brush of his existence, of his will, of his power was all it took to drive every single male spellcaster across the entire planet mad and completely rewrite all the maps for three thousand years. Sauron's touch can burn a man's skin, bend a man to his will or slay him out right. But all those effects are localized only to the person he is touching. Sauron, by comparison, is a kid fresh out of Little League trying to play in the Majors.

A more apt comparison would be Eru, because for all intents and purposes Shai'tan is the polar opposite of the Creator(Randland's Eru).

[Arcanoi]

@Last Alliance v One Hundred Companions:

Lews Therin Telamon. He personally wrestled with Shai'tan to seal the Bore(imperfectly, but sealed all the same). He survived. Even assuming that Sauron is Shai'tan's equal(which is not entirely accurate but I'll get to that later): Any mortal who ever personally dealt with the Dark Lord ended up getting a severe case of the Dead. Lews Therin Telamon was the baddest of asses among the Hundred Companions. Conversely, the baddest of asses among the Last Alliance got smushed in seconds when he tried to solo Sauron. The Last Alliance simply does not compare to the Hundred Companions.

Likewise to your other comparison, the Hundred Companions is not an apt comparison for the Last Alliance. The Hundred Companions are a better comparison to say... the High Lords of the Noldor, Elves so utterly badass that each member of their ranks was able to solo a Balrog. Indeed, they could also be compared to the March of the Valar. And I think we know who would win in that Vs.

[ZeroNumerous]

The Hundred Companions are a better comparison to say... the High Lords of the Noldor, Elves so utterly badass that each member of their ranks was able to solo a Balrog. Indeed, they could also be compared to the March of the Valar. And I think we know who would win in that Vs.

I believe you are correct. The High Lords of the Noldor is a much better match for the Hundred Companions, but I still do not think you quite grasp the scale of the Hundred Companions. Balrogs are elite footsoldiers to Melkor. Powerful, but still minions. The Hundred Companions fought the Dark One directly. The Dark One does not compare to footsoldiers, as elite as they are, nor does he compare to the First Lieutenant Sauron. Hell, even trying to compare him to Melkor still sells the Dark One short as Melkor could be bested by the other Valar. Even the Creator, the Eru of Randland, could not destroy the Dark One and merely sealed him away.

And yet, the Hundred Companions willingly faced a being on that scale of power, survived and--most importantly I might add--won.

[paddyfool]

This thread leaves a strange temptation to have further fights of the original vs the clone: "a random Nazgul vs a random Myrdraal"; "The Witch King vs that named uber-Myrdraal"; "Sauron vs Moridin"; "Uruk vs Trolloc"; "Gandalf vs Moiraine" etc. But let's not go there. The loser would be what's left of our sanity.

[Zaydos]

This thread leaves a strange temptation to have further fights of the original vs the clone: "a random Nazgul vs a random Myrdraal"; "The Witch King vs that named uber-Myrdraal"; "Sauron vs Moridin"; "Uruk vs Trolloc"; "Gandalf vs Moiraine" etc. But let's not go there. The loser would be what's left of our sanity.

Yes, or my love for the Wheel of Time which as it is one of my favorite book series of all time (possibly my favorite, I'm not sure) and something I don't want to have happen. Although... the scenarios are already running in my mind... NOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!! :smalleek:

[Exarch]

This thread leaves a strange temptation to have further fights of the original vs the clone: "a random Nazgul vs a random Myrdraal"; "The Witch King vs that named uber-Myrdraal"; "Sauron vs Moridin"; "Uruk vs Trolloc"; "Gandalf vs Moiraine" etc. But let's not go there. The loser would be what's left of our sanity.

Got to say, I'd lay 10-to-1 odds on the Trolloc defeating the uruk-hai. Uruk is tough sure, but I'd say they're more comparable to black orcs (using Warhammer. How many cross-overs can we get here?), as they're armored, disciplined and tough. Trollocs are the size of ogres with equal, if not better, equipment to them. The uruk-hai may be more disciplined, but the trolloc is plain stronger and tougher. 1-on-1, trolloc all the way. When we get to larger, 50-man units...that might change a bit so long as the trolloc doesn't have something else leading them.

As to Shadar Kai vs. The Witch King? Well...the witch king was knifed by a woman. And he couldn't kill a fricking hobbit. He was also stopped by Gandalf a few times, who is by no means a push over...but Shaidar Haran is the avatar to the antithesis of life. Shaidar Haran would use his blatantly obvious magic powers an just Balefire the Witch King so hard, Froddo never would have been stabbed.

Gandalf vs. Moiraine? Gandalf. Moiraine was never particularly powerful in the One Power, she was just into intrigue and a bit of a shaker (if not a mover) in the world. She was in the know, and she could toast some trollocs...but Gandalf is so much more. Plus, she's Oath-bound to not hurt humans unless they're going to kill her. Now, comparing Gandalf to one of the Forsaken or Mazim Taim or Logain (forget his last name) may be a bit better in terms of actual power. Or maybe one of the ludicrously powerful Seanchan casters. Edit: Upon further thought Gandalf might be able to solo a balor, but when these guys have blasting powers comparable to modern bombs, I don't know if it matters so much when Gandalf just casts Sunlight.

Sauron v. Moridin? That's hard to say. I think Moridin gets the win because the Dark One is able to bring him back to life over and over and over again if he wants.

I think the thing about LOTR v. WoT is that...LOTR is a low-to-mid level campaign in terms of DnD. WoT is level 19+ by this point, I'd wager that Rand is over 20.

[Shyftir]

@ exarch

Actually Gandalf was an Istari, a particular brand of Meior, basically another spirit in the same class, (though not as powerful) as Sauron. So Gandalf leaves Moraine ground into the group roasted, toasted, and burnt to a crisp.
Yeah check that. Gandalf = Wandering Angel. (of fire no less!)

Oh and as for Randland, The Dark One is not as strong as the Creator. The Dark One is just a proactive force, while the Creator puts things in the places he wants them. The Dark One has his forces but the Creator raises up heroes as the world needs them. The Creator works behind the scenes, the Dark One doesn't. You always see the Dark One pervert things not make them. The ability to create is stronger than the ability to twist said creations.

---------------
Back to original conversation. Dang! Great fight...
We say that Lan is the greatest swordsman, because the books tell us so. (Will he ever fight Galad?)

Tolkien doesn't say things like "he's the greatest evar!" he merely tells us how that they did great deeds. But let me ask you, was anybody in LotR a better swordsman than Aragorn? I submit that he was the best in his respective world.

Also Lan last king of a lost nation. doomed to die to avenge it. (shmexy. no?)
Aragorn lost heir to an existing country, destined to return and rule it as mankind becomes the dominant force in a world where before they had been small potatoes. (less shmexy, more powerful though.)

I'm gonna say they fight for about ten minutes, Lan dancing forms, Aragorn with terrible wrath. Then they realize they have no reason to fight and use their combined awesomeness to escape. I give the win to Aragorn, because he's a character of mythic proportion while Lan is a character of pulpy heroic proportion.

[ZeroNumerous]

So Gandalf leaves Moraine ground into the group roasted, toasted, and burnt to a crisp.

I have but one thing to say: Balefire. It doesn't care if you are a god, a fortress, a man, a woman or the Dragon Reborn. It destroys you. Retroactively. See: Comparing any LotR caster archetype to any WoT caster archetype does not work. Because in LotR: Gandalf kills more orcs with his sword than magic. Moiriane, on the other hand, has no weapon but her magic. And boy is her magic a weapon. There is simply no middle ground to compare Gandalf to any channeler of significant strength.


Oh and as for Randland, The Dark One is not as strong as the Creator. The Dark One is just a proactive force, while the Creator puts things in the places he wants them. The Dark One has his forces but the Creator raises up heroes as the world needs them. The Creator works behind the scenes, the Dark One doesn't. You always see the Dark One pervert things not make them. The ability to create is stronger than the ability to twist said creations.

I believe you are wrong, sir. See: The Creator does not work at all. Behind any scenes, openly, proactively, reactively or any kind of actively in any conceivable sense. The Creator, by word of author, makes a world then watches for a time before leaving it to do as it will. The Dark One is an anomaly in a world he made and the Creator imprisoned him in it instead of destroying him. This says that the Creator is not capable of destroying the Dark One or unwilling to destroy the Dark One. If it is the first, then the Dark One is on par with the Creator. If it is the second, then the Creator is condoning the horrors visited upon his world by the Dark One. I would prefer to think Randland's Creator is merely weak than evil.

Further: He can indeed make things as the True Power pours out from him. Canonically, the True Power is ten-times stronger than the One Power, and the One Power pours out from the Wheel of Time. This makes the Dark One at least ten times more powerful than the driving force of the world and fate itself. This makes him so insanely, ridiculously, ludicrously more powerful than Melkor it isn't even funny. And go ahead and try to compare him to Sauron.


We say that Lan is the greatest swordsman, because the books tell us so. (Will he ever fight Galad?)

Tolkien doesn't say things like "he's the greatest evar!" he merely tells us how that they did great deeds. But let me ask you, was anybody in LotR a better swordsman than Aragorn? I submit that he was the best in his respective world.

Except, as you seem to have forgotten, Robert Jordan shows us how good Lan is. Lan, alone, defeats seven men who ambush him. Lan dueled Rand regularly and was never defeated. Gawyn, who defeats other non-Lan Warders in 2-v-1 matches, is crushed on a daily basis by Lan when the two were camped together.

Conversely, Tolkien merely tells us that Aragorn is good. He tells us how Aragorn kills orcs in just a few swings. He doesn't present anyone to back up Aragorn's skill, and in fact Gimli and/or Legolas actively detract from his supposed skill by doing exactly what he does. Specifically: Someone mentioned the fact that Aragorn never got harmed or wounded throughout the series as a testament to his sword skill. However, Tolkien does not mention Legolas or Gimli being wounded either.

[warty goblin]

Conversely, Tolkien merely tells us that Aragorn is good. He tells us how Aragorn kills orcs in just a few swings. He doesn't present anyone to back up Aragorn's skill, and in fact Gimli and/or Legolas actively detract from his supposed skill by doing exactly what he does. Specifically: Someone mentioned the fact that Aragorn never got harmed or wounded throughout the series as a testament to his sword skill. However, Tolkien does not mention Legolas or Gimli being wounded either.

Gimli at least is minorly wounded at Helm's Deep IIRC. I think Legolas gets through unscathed though. But then, he's an Elf.

[Catch]

+1 for Balefire. I was wondering when it'd come up. Essentially, if you can grasp enough of the One Power (without burning yourself out) to weave Balefire, you can erase anyone. The only defense against Balefire is to avoid being hit, which is why even the Forsaken fear its use. Rand burned Rahvin's thread so far back in the pattern that Asmodean, Aviendha and Mat were never killed, and Balefire has the potential to undo even days of a person's life.


I give the win to Aragorn, because he's a character of mythic proportion while Lan is a character of pulpy heroic proportion.

Mythic leadership. Mythic destiny. Mythic setting. Not mythic skill.

Versus threads aren't decided by whose plot armour is thicker, but by the facts we can glean from the source material and conclusions extrapolated from those.

Tolkien's writing suggests Aragorn was a respectable combatant. Jordan's writing explicitly states than Lan is a legendary swordsman, with copious examples. From this evidence, I can reasonably conclude Lan would prove the victor of a majority of instances in the given scenario.

[Liffguard]

There's no productive way of comparing the two characters because the worlds they come from are so fundamentally different. Randland is basically a rational place. Of course, there are plenty of inconsistencies from writing mistakes but for the most part things work in a certain way. Characters have distinct levels of power and ability. There are distinct things they can do and cannot do. Randland characters make for good versus threads for this reason.

Characters in Middle-Earth are less explicitly powerful but also less constrained. We know that certain characters are pretty badass and have a rough idea of their capabilities but that's about it, and all bets are off when narrative need takes over. In the absence of an established "magic" system, the only limiting factors are how badly someone wants a given result, how pissed off they are and how large their cajones are. It's this force of will that allows Feanor to forge the Silmarills, Fingolfin to go toe-to-toe with Morgoth and Turin to slay Glaurung. In fact, that's pretty much how all "magic" works in Middle-Earth; forcing reality to do what you say because you're just that damn badass. When Morgoth curses Turin he doesn't use the rules of an established system. He just says "from now on bad stuff happens to you, 'cause I'm big, I'm bad and that's what I damn well say."

So would Aragorn beat Lan? How bad does he want it? How much force of will can he bring? How narratively appropriate would it be?

[HamHam]

Lan is the better swordsman, by far. So in a sword fight, he wins.

[Lupy]

Lan has no one power though. I even explicitly stated that he isn't getting his Paladin (warder, whatever, where do you think RJ got the idea?) buffs from Moraine so that it wouldn't make a difference.

I think that it needs to be considered that while Balefire is perhaps the most dangerous weapon ever, Lan does not have it. While the Dark One could grind Melkor into paste and feed him to Ungoliant before stepping on her, Lan cannot use his power. What actually matters is that Lan is known to be an epic swordsman, Aragorn is known to be a swordsman and all around epic guy, and one of them is going to kill the other. I'm leaning towards Lan right now because the forms seem much more efficient than hack and slash, but Aragorn is a mythic guy with terrible wrath and a countenance like lightning.

Unfortunately, Lan probably can't see countenances.

[Catch]

There's no productive way of comparing the two characters because the worlds they come from are so fundamentally different.

This is a solid point, but it rings of an apology for Tolkien's ambiguous writing.


So would Aragorn beat Lan? How bad does he want it? How much force of will can he bring? How narratively appropriate would it be?

Again, plot doesn't matter in versus threads. It's abstract and unquantifiable, and considering this is essentially a duel, irrelevant. Yes, narrative is crucial in the original texts, but simply the act of extracting these two characters from each of their worlds and forcing them into combat would send Tolkien and Jordan rolling in their respective graves. So claiming that Aragorn's wrath is "terrible" when the plot demands it has little bearing on the circumstances.

What matters is how. With examples, we have a means for comparison. How terrible? Kill-ten-men-unarmed terrible? Among the instances of Aragorn's "terrible" wrath, what feats of strength or martial prowess has he accomplished? How do they relate to Lan's?

Data, data, data - hiding behind the narrative is an excuse.

[Soras Teva Gee]

Kinda what Lupy is getting at the real problem with any LoTR and WoT comparasions is that they sit of different sides of the line when it comes to magic in general. Tolkien is extremely vague about magic though we infer it has to exist its very much the old fairy tale magic. The magic is in what is done not how its done. Jordan takes an entirely rational approach to it, with the how just as important as the what. WoT is almost a deconstruction of fantasy in general with its sharp realism towards everything.

[Eldariel]

Characters in Middle-Earth are less explicitly powerful but also less constrained. We know that certain characters are pretty badass and have a rough idea of their capabilities but that's about it, and all bets are off when narrative need takes over. In the absence of an established "magic" system, the only limiting factors are how badly someone wants a given result, how pissed off they are and how large their cajones are. It's this force of will that allows Feanor to forge the Silmarills, Fingolfin to go toe-to-toe with Morgoth and Turin to slay Glaurung. In fact, that's pretty much how all "magic" works in Middle-Earth; forcing reality to do what you say because you're just that damn badass. When Morgoth curses Turin he doesn't use the rules of an established system. He just says "from now on bad stuff happens to you, 'cause I'm big, I'm bad and that's what I damn well say."

If you're familiar with folklore, it's really the same thing as what goes on in LoTR; "might" is something inherent and internal to basically every thing in existence; the might of steel, the might or fire, the might of tree, the might of bear, the might of person, etc. The mights are of different sizes; it seems like LoTR takes this and scales the "might" for the more and more powerful creatures.

A mighty elf is a match for a dragon simply because of this internal might, not because of some display of skill, spell or something else so simple and mundane. It is the pure internal might in one that makes or breaks a person in Middle-Earth and why the confrontations aren't really described in detail; it's mostly a battle of mights with whatever weapon/magic you wield adding to your own.


That alone makes these battles pretty difficult to call; there's really no measurement of such "might" in any other system and even in Tolkien's work, we can only build the hierarchy based on how the characters measure up against each other. And there's a lot of what would be completely irrelevant in Middle-Earth like a variety of specific spells and maneuvers and stuff to that effect.

[ZeroNumerous]

I think that it needs to be considered that while Balefire is perhaps the most dangerous weapon ever, Lan does not have it. While the Dark One could grind Melkor into paste and feed him to Ungoliant before stepping on her, Lan cannot use his power.

Indeed, and none of those things were brought up concerning Lan. They were brought up as separate comparisons of WoT vs LotR at large.

[Liffguard]

I have but one thing to say: Balefire. It doesn't care if you are a god, a fortress, a man, a woman or the Dragon Reborn. It destroys you. Retroactively. See: Comparing any LotR caster archetype to any WoT caster archetype does not work. Because in LotR: Gandalf kills more orcs with his sword than magic. Moiriane, on the other hand, has no weapon but her magic. And boy is her magic a weapon. There is simply no middle ground to compare Gandalf to any channeler of significant strength.


Indeed, and none of those things were brought up concerning Lan. They were brought up as separate comparisons of WoT vs LotR at large.

Again, the comparison doesn't really work on any meaningful level because of the completely different metaphysics of the two worlds. Balefire destroys, fair enough. But Elves, Maiar and Valar can't be destroyed. Their fates are tied immutably to the fate of their world and if slain simply return to Valinor. That's a pretty big deal for an elf who requires a body but less so for maiar or valar. What happens when the unstoppable ray of destruction hits something that ultimately can't be destroyed?

Fundamentally different worlds.

[ZeroNumerous]

Again, the comparison doesn't really work on any meaningful level because of the completely different metaphysics of the two worlds. Balefire destroys, fair enough. But Elves, Maiar and Valar can't be destroyed. Their fates are tied immutably to the fate of their world and if slain simply return to Valinor. That's a pretty big deal for an elf who requires a body but less so for maiar or valar. What happens when the unstoppable ray of destruction hits something that ultimately can't be destroyed?

Fundamentally different worlds.

Actually, they aren't quite that different. See: Balefire does not simply slay you. It destroys you by destroying your thread in the Pattern. It destroys you, your fate and your very existence then retroactively undoes everything you had done up to a certain period in time. This means that yes elves, maiar and valar can be destroyed. Because Balefire does not simply target the body. It destroys the very fabric of the world with every usage. This is why only the bad guys used it before, and why the good guys only use it in dire circumstances.

So: Balefire does effectively counter every deific being in LotR. Mostly because LotR is so very low on the scale of power it isn't even funny.

[Corvus]

Except LotR is not part of the WoT's pattern. Balefire works in WoT beacuse of the pattern - there are no threads in LotR to burn out of existence so balefire simply won't work against them.

[Sanguine]

Except LotR is not part of the WoT's pattern. Balefire works in WoT beacuse of the pattern - there are no threads in LotR to burn out of existence so balefire simply won't work against them.

Actually seeing as we have never seen Balefire used in a patternless environment we have no Idea what it would do, for all we know the universe would implode.

[Lupy]

Actually seeing as we have never seen Balefire used in a patternless environment we have no Idea what it would do, for all we know the universe would implode.

Which wouldn't destroy the Valar, Maiar, Elves, Men, or other beings with feas.

[ZeroNumerous]

Which wouldn't destroy the Valar, Maiar, Elves, Men, or other beings with feas.

But it would destroy anything with a fate, as this is balefire's explicit purpose. It is designed, wholly and completely, to be without defense so long as you are a creature with a fate. Indeed, one could say it were a weapon against heroes or gods such as Gandalf, the Valar or even little Frodo. Though: This does bring into question it's effect against Tom Bombadil, who seems to act entirely of his own accord and without any overarching fate.

In short: Anything can be destroyed as long as that thing has a fate.

[chiasaur11]

But it would destroy anything with a fate, as this is balefire's explicit purpose. It is designed, wholly and completely, to be without defense so long as you are a creature with a fate. Indeed, one could say it were a weapon against heroes or gods such as Gandalf, the Valar or even little Frodo. Though: This does bring into question it's effect against Tom Bombadil, who seems to act entirely of his own accord and without any overarching fate.

In short: Anything can be destroyed as long as that thing has a fate.

What if it had a fate, and it flipped said fate the bird?

In other words, could it take down, say, Anung Un Rama, the half demon former BPRD agent known to the public as Hellboy?

(Mainly this is a question about limits and suchlike. It's only a tiny bit thinking about how awesome Hellboy comics are.)

[Corvus]

In short: Anything can be destroyed as long as that thing has a fate.


No, anything can be destroyed if it has a thread in the WoT pattern. LotR characters don't.

There is another book which kind of shows this in effect - The Fionavar Tapestry. Everything that lives had a thread in their Tapestry and having a thread means you can die. However, the BBE is outside of the pattern and has no thread and therefore can not die.

If you impose threads on LotR characters just so balefire works on them, then the same can happen in reverse - we can say that the One Power doesn't exist in a clash as it doesn't exist in Middle Earth and.

[Zaydos]

In short: Anything can be destroyed as long as that thing has a fate.

Then why didn't somebody just hit the Dark One with Balefire? If it is irresistible as has been said earlier in the thread then why didn't they just use it to kill him?

Balefire has limits; what it's limits are we can't be completely sure but we know it does.

And yes I expect to hear some excuse as to why it doesn't affect the Dark One, perhaps a claim that he doesn't have a fate which doesn't really work. The Dark One wants to destroy/remake fate, and has done so over and over again. A better one would be to say he is part of the fate of the world itself on a level far deeper than even ta'veren and it would take nigh infinite power to destroy him in this way... but that would work for all the Valar spirits and many Maiar spirits from Tolkien. Also could Balefire destroy the substance the Dark One's seals were made from?

[Catch]

Then why didn't somebody just hit the Dark One with Balefire? If it is irresistible as has been said earlier in the thread then why didn't they just use it to kill him?

You use the term "him" as though the Dark One is a person, with a corporeal body which can be destroyed. He is not.

Though it's worth mentioning that Lews Therin Telamon and the Hundred Companions did try to strike at the Dark One using the One Power, to re-seal the prison made by the Creator. Yet simply by touching the Dark One's presence, sadin was tainted forever, and drove to raving madness every single male who could touch the True Source.

It's true that Balefire can utterly destroy things and un-weave people. But when trying to kill an intangible maleficent sentience with a superweapon, where does one point the damn thing?


Also could Balefire destroy the substance the Dark One's seals were made from?

No. Cuendillar only becomes stronger as more force is applied, including the One Power. It's hypothesized that only the True Power (which is different) can damage cuendillar.

[Anteros]

No, anything can be destroyed if it has a thread in the WoT pattern. LotR characters don't.

There is another book which kind of shows this in effect - The Fionavar Tapestry. Everything that lives had a thread in their Tapestry and having a thread means you can die. However, the BBE is outside of the pattern and has no thread and therefore can not die.

If you impose threads on LotR characters just so balefire works on them, then the same can happen in reverse - we can say that the One Power doesn't exist in a clash as it doesn't exist in Middle Earth and.

Balefire burns the target out of time itself. People in the WoT series refer to it as burning threads in the pattern, simply because that's how they percieve time to work. If someone gets stabbed in the wheel of time, they might say that the thread of their life was cut short.

It doesn't mean Aragorn would be immune to being stabbed by Lan though just because he doesn't have a thread.

As for why no one has balefired the Dark One...it's probably because he's
A. Incorporeal.
B. In a completely different dimension from everyone else.

Kinda a hard target to hit.

[ZeroNumerous]

Then why didn't somebody just hit the Dark One with Balefire? If it is irresistible as has been said earlier in the thread then why didn't they just use it to kill him?

Because:

A) The Dark One is hidden away in it's prison, which may or may not even be a physical construct to shoot. After all, the seals on his prison are distinctly not gathered in one location and are scattered about. This implies it's prison is a metaphysical or magical one as opposed to a physical one.

B) Further, assuming you can shoot the Dark One you would then have to travel to the location it can be shot at. This location would be surrounded by the Forsaken, trollocs, myddraal, darkhounds and any myriad group of shadowspawn. Even getting a chance to fire would be extremely unlikely.

C) Assuming you can shoot him and you get past it's minions then you still need to contend with the Dark One himself. His voice, be it physical or metaphysical, can unintentionally break minds with it's sheer presence. What would it be able to do if the Dark One was intent on defending himself?

D) Finally, if you can shoot the Dark One then it would stand to reason that it would be able to fire back. In essence: You would be competing against a very literal deity from whom springs a well of power ten times the power you have to draw upon. Your victory is far from assured.


Balefire has limits; what it's limits are we can't be completely sure but we know it does.

Unlikely. Attacking the Pattern directly is not something one can defend against without being able to see it. And being able to see the Pattern would imply a skill or level of power far beyond the scale where Balefire is a threat to you.


And yes I expect to hear some excuse as to why it doesn't affect the Dark One, perhaps a claim that he doesn't have a fate which doesn't really work. The Dark One wants to destroy/remake fate, and has done so over and over again. A better one would be to say he is part of the fate of the world itself on a level far deeper than even ta'veren and it would take nigh infinite power to destroy him in this way... but that would work for all the Valar spirits and many Maiar spirits from Tolkien.

The common theory is that the Dark One is part of the Pattern as the Pattern is the Dark One's prison. The Bore, then, would be a metaphysical hole in the Pattern aimed to tap into the True Power contained within the Dark One. This is mentioned in The Gathering Storm as a possibility for Min's visions being false: "If we fail, then there is no Pattern." This implies that the Dark One is out to destroy the Pattern itself, possibly to free itself from the Pattern. As for him being part of the fate of the world itself: I find this incredibly unlikely. Then destroying the world would destroy himself, as the two would be linked through fate.


Also could Balefire destroy the substance the Dark One's seals were made from?

As mentioned: Cuendillar is immune to the direct effects of the One Power, much like Mat's medallion. Whether this holds true against the True Power is debatable.

[Soras Teva Gee]

We've already seen balefire essentially fail against Mashadar guys. With its overwhelming non-corporeal mass of hate fog the two most powerful channelers were only able to hold Mashadar back. It isn't taking down the DO without some now destroyed artifacts to kick things up to Breaking levels. And if it worked its the worst possible scenario for balefire use imaginable too.

So its not to be used even if it could be used.

[Da'Shain]

On the original topic: Lan, almost certainly. Neither of their blades will break in the course of the fight (the only thing that's broken Narsil/Anduril and Power-wrought-blades is a demigod and an incredibly powerful channeler, respectively), so I'd call that a non-issue. However, Lan consistently fights just as long odds as Aragorn does and comes out on top (hordes of Orcs and Uruk-Hai and hordes of Trollocs and the occasional Myrddraal, respectively), but also has fought far more opponents at or near his own skill level and triumphed; in fact, he's acknowledged as essentially the best swordsman in his world by pretty much everyone who's met him, with other Warders actually measuring their own skill by how well they fare against Lan. Just about the only two characters who might be on his level (given what we know) are Rand al'Thor and Gawyn Trakand.

Aragorn, on the other hand, is obviously highly skilled but there are others who are just as handy in a battle as he is (Gimli and Legolas being the two easiest examples) and he has not really fought anyone known to be a great swordsman. Maybe the Ringwraiths, but TBH their danger seems to be more magical than physical, and Aragorn's "countenance" seems to be similar to Elven lords' in that he can face them on their own terms. He's a great fighter and destined leader with some magical blood in him; Lan is the standard by which other fighters in his world are judged, and has proven why many times over.

BTW, I think Lan's Warder bond is essentially the equivalent of Numenorean blood (it gives him greater endurance, lengthened lifespan, the works), so I'm not sure why it was specifically exempted. The quicker healing it bestows is in no way a Wolverine-style healing factor, it just means they recover from worse wounds faster; it won't come into play in the course of one fight.


On the topic of balefire working against LotR characters: if we're accepting that the One Power works in such a situation, why wouldn't balefire work? That's kinda like saying that in a fight between a Sith and someone else, they can use Force push but Force lightning just doesn't work for some reason. It's rather pointless to say "let's have him and him fight" but then say one of the characters' powers don't work like they should.

Plus, the two worlds are a bit more similar than it might seem, considering that LotR has a "Pattern" of its own, namely, the song of Iluvatar. Balefire could simply work by silencing someone's notes instead of burning their thread; it's a rather close parallel.

Of course, I'm a bit biased (obviously, look at the name :smalltongue:), but TBH the scale of magic in WoT is so overpowered it's not even funny. Tolkien's magic is much more mystical seeming, but so vague and more behind the scenes than not, that it's pretty hard to imagine it holding a candle to the roaring bonfire of WoT's channeling, which regularly alters the course of entire battles through direct action.

[Bob_the_Mighty]

I always took the actualy Wheel itself in WoT to pretty much be a deity in and of itself. I don't remember anything about the conversation, but I remember some one saying something about the Dark One being evil, the Creator being good, and the Wheel not caring. I assumed it was essentially a neutral deity, that governed the lives of every mortal being in existence. Since both the Creator and the Dark One were seperate deities from the Wheel, they wouldn't have threads in it, and thus wouldn't be susceptable to balefire. But, that's just how I viewed it.

[ZeroNumerous]

I don't remember anything about the conversation, but I remember some one saying something about the Dark One being evil, the Creator being good, and the Wheel not caring.

The most common phrase used in WoT: "The Wheel weaves as The Wheel wills" indicts that the Wheel is a sentient being of some sort and is capable of making decisions. However, that could just be humanizing a non-sentient object.

As for your statement on the Creator: In universe he is explicitly neutral and does not intervene for good or ill. In Eye of the World: Rand hears what he believes to be the Creator stating that he will not intervene even at Tarmon Gai'don. Assuming that the Wheel is distinct and separate from the Creator, this would mean that the battle is between Rand and the Dark One rather than Good versus Evil.

[Da'Shain]

Isn't the Dark One actually the source of some threads in the Pattern? I seem to remember a statement to that effect, although if it happened it definitely came out of some character's mouth and is thus not necessarily true.

Regardless, though, it seems to be pretty consistently portrayed that the Dark One is outside of the Pattern, himself, and is basically an eldritch abomination of sorts whose goal is the complete destruction of the Pattern (i.e. existence) so that he can once again be free. The Creator doesn't seem to be a force for good so much as a force for order and existence, while the Dark One is all for chaos and entropy. Which is why his minions more often than not get in each others' way, fatally.

The Wheel itself might be a god, but I always thought it was just the mechanism the Creator made so that he wouldn't have to keep the world going himself. When people say that it "weaves as [it] wills" it's more just saying that life is inscrutable, rather than actually ascribing a will to it. That could just be my interpretation, though.

[paddyfool]

This thread leaves a strange temptation to have further fights of the original vs the clone: "a random Nazgul vs a random Myrdraal"; "The Witch King vs that named uber-Myrdraal"; "Sauron vs Moridin"; "Uruk vs Trolloc"; "Gandalf vs Moiraine" etc. But let's not go there. The loser would be what's left of our sanity.

Bolded for emphasis. Also, a few notes:
- The reason LoTR is low-magic is that Tolkein's religious beliefs had him very uneasy about presenting anything he viewed as pagan (to the point that he took umbrage with his friend Staples' series of children's fantasy because of talking animals). Translation for the uninitiated: Narnia. EDIT: Which makes me kind of curious about what he'd have thought of furries...
Having a low-magic setting in this way extends to the devil-analogy (Morgoth) being lower-powered than whatsisname's Dark One; he wouldn't really have been too keen on giving the devil his due.
- On the subject of such similar devil-analogues, and why the Creator permits the Dark One to exist etc., I've wondered before if it might not be a similar situation to the Despiser and the Creator in the Thomas Covenant Chronicles. The world being the [devil analogy]'s prison, and that to destroy said being would require sufficient power to also destroy the world. The scale of the power gifted to the eponymous antihero was thus described as sufficient to "break the arch of time" and release the Despiser, so that it would also be sufficient to put him down for a time. So that to destroy the Dark One would also destroy the pattern, and with it, the world.

[Megaduck]

I never believed there was an actual wheel in the wheel of time or anything that could be considered a deity. I was under the impression that the Wheel of Time was simply a humongously massive stable time loop. Everything about wheels and weaving and threads is simply an analogy.

*Edit*

Regardless, though, it seems to be pretty consistently portrayed that the Dark One is outside of the Pattern, himself, and is basically an eldritch abomination of sorts whose goal is the complete destruction of the Pattern (i.e. existence) so that he can once again be free.

I was under the impression that the Dark One was the only one in the series that perceived time linearly and doesn't endlessly repeat himself. He's basically trapped in the movie Groundhog Day except instead of a single day he's repeating a several thousand year cycle.

[WalkingTarget]

I never saw the Wheel and the Pattern as being anything other than a metaphor. It's just the metaphor that the whole world has embraced and so the descriptions we're given are all through that mindset (lives as threads in the Pattern, stuff like that).

There's not so much a stable time loop as a case of history repeats itself on a grand scale.

[Douglas]

I never believed there was an actual wheel in the wheel of time or anything that could be considered a deity. I was under the impression that the Wheel of Time was simply a humongously massive stable time loop. Everything about wheels and weaving and threads is simply an analogy.
No, the Wheel is an actual active force in the setting. There are way too many incredible coincidences, past and present, that only make sense as the Wheel of Time making a corrective effort. The mere existence of False Dragons, plus the huge numbers of them declaring immediately before Rand and then every last one of them losing the instant Rand declares himself is just one example. Back in the Age of Legends they had comprehensive theories on how the Wheel works, and these resulted in the discovery or understanding of vacuoles (see Moghedian's holding cell right before meeting Moridin), some of the properties of the World of Dreams, Ta'veren, and some of how portal stones work, plus who knows how much else that's been lost completely.

It may not be an actual physical wheel, but it definitely exists and is capable of strongly influencing events.


I was under the impression that the Dark One was the only one in the series that perceived time linearly and doesn't endlessly repeat himself. He's basically trapped in the movie Groundhog Day except instead of a single day he's repeating a several thousand year cycle.
Several thousand? Try several tens of thousands at an absolute minimum, probably more like hundreds of thousands or even millions. There are hints that the First Age is the real world, the Age of Legends lasted so long that even the concept of war and the very existence of the Dark One were forgotten, the Third Age is three thousand years by itself, and there are still four more ages we know nothing about.