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Evard
2010-01-16, 09:28 PM
I was reading the thread http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=138653 and i want to know what would be the best number of levels (assuming that everyone had to dip into melee and magic)..

Using Core only
X levels of melee
Y levels of magic

I don't want to see things like X = 1 and Y =19, i would like to see a good balance of magic an melee and why. Maybe something like

(idea from the other thread)
Monk 10 Druid 10
b/c the druid will get 4 wildshapes a day that can be large
monk wis to ac and druid spells are based on wisdom
respectable 5th spell level
Flurry + Furry (large) = doom to enemies
natural armor + monk wis + other = almost untouchable

With some roleplaying... drunken master grizzly :D

Kylarra
2010-01-16, 09:40 PM
You're going to need to define "best" better, because arguably if you /had/ to get melee, the "best" dip is 1-3 levels/fullcaster/gish PrCs

Cybren
2010-01-16, 09:43 PM
Core only? Fighter 2/Wizard8/EK10 (don't take it in that order though. go fighter 1, wizard 5, EK 10, wizard +3, fighter +1)

It gets you four attacks per round and 9th level spells.

FlamingKobold
2010-01-16, 09:44 PM
Just going Melee X Magic Y assumes you don't have spellswords, eldritch knight, abjurant champion, etc. Gish prestige classes are quite preferable. And when you add divine in, it gets weird, because they're already both. A Cleric 20 Cleric 20 is a melee 20 magic 20...

But I would prefer a Monk 6, Cleric 14, because monks are almost good at 6. Then you get 7th level spells. Actually, less monk more prestige class is better, but this is decent if you want a much more monkish feel.

Sstoopidtallkid
2010-01-16, 09:47 PM
For comboing melee and magic in core 3.5? Druid 20. Stronger than any other core class in melee and has one of the best spelllists in the game. If you must dip something, either monk or Barbarian 1. The Druid, as a platform, is better at melee than any other character due to only needing 2 stats(one of which controls HP) and yet getting incredible melee stats and abilities for free, especially stuff like Improved Grab(better than 2 feats) and Pounce(unavailable to any other core class.

Foryn Gilnith
2010-01-16, 11:02 PM
You're going to need to define "best" better,

This. What constitutes a level of melee is infuriatingly vague (especially in gestalt, if dual-progression is b&). If you're just going for attack efficiency, a melee dip (or pure caster) is ideal. If you're going for BAB, there are ways to get that.

Evard
2010-01-17, 12:00 AM
well i did say core 3.5

also sorry i didn't describe best better, best blend of magic and melee. Basically making a character that is good in melee and magic

druids are good but flurry + wildshape is killer

druids don't have all the skills a rogue has nor the attack efficiency of a fighter. wildshape only so many times a day whereas a fighter can swing a sword all day alot better than a druid. a full wizard might be able to blast but wont be able to attack worth squat once he runs out of spells. a fighter may be able to slice n dice but wont be able to blast.

Sstoopidtallkid
2010-01-17, 12:03 AM
well i did say core 3.5

also sorry i didn't describe best better, best blend of magic and melee. Basically making a character that is good in melee and magic

druids are good but flurry + wildshape is killer

druids don't have all the skills a rogue has nor the attack efficiency of a fighter. wildshape only so many times a day whereas a fighter can swing a sword all day alot better than a druid. a full wizard might be able to blast but wont be able to attack worth squat once he runs out of spells. a fighter may be able to slice n dice but wont be able to blast.At level 7 you are Wildshaped for 21 hours a day. That's functionally no different from a Fighter's duration of combat capability, especially since you can summon a Unicorn to heal yourself better than even a Cleric can. And no, they don't have the skills of a Rogue, but why Open Locks when you can Warp Wood? Or use a bear. Who needs Trapfinding when you have Summon Monkey 1?

And everything posted so far has been core except a mention of a single PrC(and not by me, since Druids don't need PrCs).

Tyndmyr
2010-01-17, 12:28 AM
druids don't have the attack efficiency of a fighter.

Uh...no. They have a companion that acts as a second fighter, thus vastly surpassing a single fighter. With casting.

FlamingKobold
2010-01-17, 12:38 AM
Yep, Druid 20 or Cleric 20 is the best. Druid is better in core, though, because of aforementioned wildshape (SAD), Summon nature's ally (mooks and utility), companion (better than a melee character of equal level), and that's not mentioning full spellcasting or the slew of other class features that they have. Druids win D&D, especially in core.

Coidzor
2010-01-17, 01:32 AM
Scout 3/(Wildshaping)Mystic Ranger X(with tasty Sword of the Arcane Order)/Gish PrCs to get over 5th level spells(Abjurant Champion I think was recommended).

I'm kind of interested in trying out a Wildshaping Mystic Ranger 6/Nature's Warrior/Warshaper/Master of Many Forms build, but need more research and opportunity.

Hmm. Counting UA? Probably not.

Yeah, Druid and Cleric are superior choices due to the fact that arcanist and beatstick don't synergize very well in core only from what I can tell. Maybe barbarian (with extend and extra rage if possible), let's say, 4/Fighter 1/Cleric 15, 8th level spells, 2x day Rage for extra buffing in Clericzilla beat-stick heavy fights, and an extra feat instead of being unable to be flanked save by rogues over 9th level...

Sophismata
2010-01-17, 06:17 AM
Maybe barbarian (with extend and extra rage if possible), let's say, 4/Fighter 1/Cleric 15, 8th level spells, 2x day Rage for extra buffing in Clericzilla beat-stick heavy fights, and an extra feat instead of being unable to be flanked save by rogues over 9th level...

Doesn't rage prevent spellcasting?

Emmerask
2010-01-17, 07:21 AM
Yep only exception I know would be rage mage from CW(sadly only half spell progression) and only for arcane casters.
I allways wanted to make a barbarian/sorc/rage mage not the most powerfull character out there but interesting I think.

/edit Perhaps with some spellsword or other means to deliver magic through hitting in the mix :smallwink:

Anyway you will never be as powerfull as pure casters with a melee x / caster y character but if you are not in a highly optimized campaign that should not stop you from making interesting characters :smallsmile:

Tyndmyr
2010-01-17, 09:49 AM
Bard/Barbarian should synergize nicely.

HCL
2010-01-17, 09:55 AM
Pally2/SorcX/Eldritch knight or abjurant champion is a classic

Crusader1/Transmuter and master specialist 5/Runesmith is probably my favorite arcane gish.

Duskblade is nice

Cleric is sick. Get 3 levels of prestige paladin for ez wins, then head over to Bone Knight.

Warblade or crusader/Bard is also pretty cool, though its more focused on your singing.

Evard
2010-01-17, 11:52 AM
Uh...no. They have a companion that acts as a second fighter, thus vastly surpassing a single fighter. With casting.

i have seen many of companions be worthless next to a fighter, not only have i played in campaigns with people that knew how to use a druid but i DM'ed a couple campys where a i had players who were druids with good animal companions... they didn't stick up to the two weapon fighter (or rogue) at all.

Anyways saying druid 20 is not what i asked for in the slightest, i'm asking for a multiclass not a pure class. Prestige classes from d20srd.org could be brought into them i guess.

Thrice Dead Cat
2010-01-17, 11:57 AM
i have seen many of companions be worthless next to a fighter, not only have i played in campaigns with people that knew how to use a druid but i DM'ed a couple campys where a i had players who were druids with good animal companions... they didn't stick up to the two weapon fighter (or rogue) at all.

Anyways saying druid 20 is not what i asked for in the slightest, i'm asking for a multiclass not a pure class. Prestige classes from d20srd.org could be brought into them i guess.

Okay, then Monk 2/Druid 18. Net Wisdom to AC and Evasion all while being a cute little bird dropping meteors or a kung-fu bear eating the local opposition or a shark with freaking lasers on its head. You get the idea.


Also, if I recall, a fight was done between a mid level fighter and a mid level druid's animal companion, which came to a draw. Fighter had full wealth by level, animal had a fraction of it.

Eloel
2010-01-17, 12:07 PM
If nothing, the Druid can wildshape into a bear, and ride his fleshraker into battle, buffing himself AND the raker at the same time.

Can you say FREAKING AWESOME for me?

Also, I see a poor poor fighter dieing a horrible horrible death.

Stompy
2010-01-17, 12:10 PM
...but i DM'ed a couple campys where a i had players who were druids with good animal companions... they didn't stick up to the two weapon fighter (or rogue) at all.

Really? Because I've played a two weapon ranger and I didn't stick up to the swordsage or cleric in the group. I also got toyed around with by a wizard, who was flying and cast stoneskin first round of combat.

EDIT: The animal companion I got was a prop. Nothing more. Eagles do not combat well. My DM had to fiat me to be useful.

I also love how you want a "balance" of magic and melee, but if I had to do this, my vote would be for Paladin2/SorcY. (Use buffs on yourself like greater heroism and magic weapon, greater and Sorcerer can be "melee" too!)

Evard
2010-01-17, 01:12 PM
If nothing, the Druid can wildshape into a bear, and ride his fleshraker into battle, buffing himself AND the raker at the same time.

Can you say FREAKING AWESOME for me?

Also, I see a poor poor fighter dieing a horrible horrible death.

By core the druid cannot take the fleshraker and actually the only way he/she could take that as an animal companion would be for him/her to be familiar with it as in lived around them (or have a DM say "anything you want" ) and any DM who would let them have that is kinda crazy. I let a character use one of them once in a overpowered game...note i said overpowered game.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/druid.htm#theDruidsAnimalCompanion Besides almost every time i read someone boasting about their druid they hardly ever have a monster from the actual list or one that makes sense like a friend of mine had an Desert Druid with a bear companion and wild-shaped into a gorilla....


Paladin/Sorcerer is one of the reasons why i love hybrids in 4e

So you would only use the monk for 2 levels just for the Wis to AC bonus? I would think some of the free feats would be nice to have like improved trip or deflect arrows.

Mongoose87
2010-01-17, 01:14 PM
So you would only use the monk for 2 levels just for the Wis to AC bonus? I would think some of the free feats would be nice to have like improved trip or deflect arrows.

You start to lose Caster Level, and it sucks. Druids generally only need one feat, natural spell, so they can take those others easily.

Stompy
2010-01-17, 01:19 PM
By core the druid cannot take the fleshraker and actually the only way he/she could take that as an animal companion would be for him/her to be familiar with it as in lived around them.

...or raised it from an egg. (I knew an overpowered druid that had that in his backstory.)

Also, you can get dire wolf and tiger fairly soon as an animal companion in core anyway. They are pretty good.

Zaydos
2010-01-17, 01:23 PM
I like a properly boosted tiger animal companion myself. Won't match an optimized ubercharger but gets some good damage. Is a fairly decent melee itself and leaves you with full magic and the ability to turn into some pretty beastly creatures. In core you lose some of the best ally buffs (Nature's Favor, Bite of the Weretiger/Werebear) but melee loses lots of its tricks too.

Sstoopidtallkid
2010-01-17, 01:23 PM
By core the druid cannot take the fleshraker and actually the only way he/she could take that as an animal companion would be for him/her to be familiar with it as in lived around them (or have a DM say "anything you want" ) and any DM who would let them have that is kinda crazy. I let a character use one of them once in a overpowered game...note i said overpowered game.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/druid.htm#theDruidsAnimalCompanion Besides almost every time i read someone boasting about their druid they hardly ever have a monster from the actual list or one that makes sense like a friend of mine had an Desert Druid with a bear companion and wild-shaped into a gorilla....


Paladin/Sorcerer is one of the reasons why i love hybrids in 4e

So you would only use the monk for 2 levels just for the Wis to AC bonus? I would think some of the free feats would be nice to have like improved trip or deflect arrows.Deflect Arrows isn't worth it. It only works on one arrow a round, and Arrows as a damage source are boosted most by multiple shots.

And 10th level Druid with a brown bear AC is all I've mentioned, and that's what druids were expected to have as a pet. I view a Fleshraker as...unnecessary overkill. Though funny.

Vizzerdrix
2010-01-17, 01:29 PM
Umm... Core only melee isn't that good, but if you must, Aim for any combination that will get you into Eldrich Champion or arcane trickster as those are the only gish classes in the DMG.

Or just straight Pally/ranger. They have the same feel as a melee/magic combo.

Thrice Dead Cat
2010-01-17, 01:30 PM
And 10th level Druid with a brown bear AC is all I've mentioned, and that's what druids were expected to have as a pet. I view a Fleshraker as...unnecessary overkill. Though funny.

Oh, come on, he's just giving you a hug! The only reason he jumped on top of you is because he got into some sugar recently.:smalltongue:

Vizzerdrix
2010-01-17, 01:37 PM
Yep only exception I know would be rage mage from CW(sadly only half spell progression) and only for arcane casters.
I allways wanted to make a barbarian/sorc/rage mage not the most powerfull character out there but interesting I think.

/edit Perhaps with some spellsword or other means to deliver magic through hitting in the mix :smallwink:

Anyway you will never be as powerfull as pure casters with a melee x / caster y character but if you are not in a highly optimized campaign that should not stop you from making interesting characters :smallsmile:

Runescarred Berserker from UE?

Evard
2010-01-17, 01:44 PM
Only once per round? I thought it was more than that ... Well Flurry of Furry would still be a good reason to have a couple more levels in Monk :smallbiggrin:

I like this idea of multiclassing where it gives you a small push to be more well rounded. But i still need to find X and Y. So far X for one melee class is not X for the other melee classes (also with Y). Also when you make X to small you really don't get a good balance with Rogue or Fighter/ Wizard.

Can we find a way to make X be the same number for every match up? The ones i'm interested in are (along with main scores neeed but not exactly in order)

Rogue X/Wizard Y (Int, Dex, Con, Str)
Fighter X/Wizard Y (Int, Str, Con, Dex)
Monk X/Druid Y (Wis, Dex, Str, Con)
Paladin X/Sorcerer Y (Cha, Dex, Con)
Monk X/Cleric Y (Wis, Dex, Str, Con)
Barbarian X/Bard Y (Cha, Str, Dex, Con)

so what would be the best to make
X =
Y=
and have those numbers fit into all the classes above and still be a good balance between the two classes? I wouldn't want to see one class totally over shadow another class.

Zincorium
2010-01-17, 01:51 PM
Short answer: you have what you want already. You will not get approval of the boards for this choice- deal with it and play what sounds fun.

Long answer:
Mlee\caster, known as a gish, has been given several builds as options, and none of them fit your requirements, which is entirely your requirements fault. Core, despite your protestations, you really do want druid with a dip into barbarian or monk and NO MORE. Either you are okay with breaking your limitations or you are okay with being subpar, there is no third option.

What you really want, a way to combine melee class features with limited divine spellcasting, using only the core 3, and not taking dip classes, is going to suck in comparison to druid 20. Not alright with this? Too bad. You decided to remove all the valid options.

Sstoopidtallkid
2010-01-17, 01:52 PM
Your stats are completely off. Things like Polymorph and Wildshape seem to be completely ignored, as are Multiclass PrCs.
Rogue 3/Wizard 7/AT 10 (Int, Dex, Con). Uses Ray spells to deliver SA.
Fighter 1/Wizard 9/EK 10 (Int, Con). Uses Polymorph to fight in melee.
Monk 1 or 2/Druid Y (Wis, Con). Uses Wildshape to fight in melee. Later levels of monk give far less benefit that more powerful spells and Wildshape forms.
Paladin 2/Sorcerer 18 (Cha, Con). Uses Polymorph to fight in melee, adds Cha to saves as well as casting.
Monk X/Cleric Y (Wis, Dex, Str, Con). Not sure how to do this core.
Barbarian X/Bard Y (Cha, Str, Dex, Con). Same.

Note what's similar? You dip front-heavy melee classes for one or 2 abilities or PrC prerequisites, then continue progressing your casting, snagging a dual-progression PrC if possible. Y is what you care about, X is the bare minimum you can get away with.

Zaydos
2010-01-17, 01:55 PM
As far as power is concerned Y will be >>> than X. For flavor...
Maybe:
Paladin 2/Sorcerer 6/Eldritch Knight 10/Sorcerer +2
Gets you Divine Grace, +16 BAB, and 17th level casting... the loss of 9th level spells hurts a lot though. Focus on self buff spells. Should be fun at Level 11 with polymorph but rather weak compared to a straight wizard.

lsfreak
2010-01-17, 02:01 PM
The thing you're failing to take into account is that the caster can already do everything the melee can, and better. Adding in melee levels provides little-to-nothing to the caster whatsoever. A couple level dips in order to grab really good, front-loaded abilities, or to prestige into something fairly worthwhile, like Arcane Trickster, can be worth it. But more than about 3 lost caster levels? No way. Ninth level spells are too powerful to give up for an extra few hitpoints and an extra attack that won't hit anywho.

One you leave core and have the options of Abjurant Champion, Jade Phoenix Mage, and/or Swiftblade, then gishes become worthwhile. In core, your options are one-or-two level dips, and that's about it.

Eldariel
2010-01-17, 03:40 PM
The thing to realize about multiclassing casters and melee is that levels in caster class advance the core of melee (BAB) while levels in melee classes DON'T advance the core of casting (Caster Levels).

It's due to this that the "50/50" characters are the kind of Fighter 2/Wizard 6/Eldritch Knight 10/Archmage 2; this gets 17th level casting and 16 BAB so pretty even in actual ability, but the class levels don't reflect this due to the way 3.5 works.

This is, consequently, also the reason for the need of PrCs. Because of how caster multiclassing is written, you need stuff like Eldritch Knight to not lose so many caster levels as to lose access to level-appropriate effects.

ShippoWildheart
2010-01-17, 04:48 PM
Druid/Cleric ARE the Melee X/Magic Y multi-class as long as you know what you're doing. In fact, they are a Melee X = Magic Y class.

If you allow all the arcane cheese that exists in Core, Wizards.