[3,5 core] How to kill an archer

[drevil]

As I am making an archer (lvl.15), I want to know the intelligent ways of fighting archers.

- Closing the distanse (teleport, high movement speed)
- Protection from Arrows (dont work on magic arrows)
- Wind wall
- Wall of Force/Stone (block arrows)

Do you know other tactics against an archer?
If you have the solution to the archer-tactics, feel free to post them as well.

[Crow]

Cover and concealment. Make them come to you.

[Temotei]

There's Air Devotion, a feat in Complete Champion, that allows you to avoid attacks--especially ranged ones, if I remember correctly.

Deflect Arrows. Snatch Arrows.

Arguably, you could ready a standard action to cast mage hand if they fire an arrow at you.

[PhoenixRivers]

Stormrage, a cleric spell, allows you to laugh off any projectile or thrown weapon.

Illusion to hide.

Summons to restrict movement (summon devils that raise walls of ice).

Deflect arrows

[drevil]

Cover and concealment. Make them come to you.


Excellent. You are right. That is a huge problem for archers.

Possible counter-moves are:
- fly above the cover/concealment if possible
- party wizard casting spells forcing enemy out of cover/concealment
- if archer is a cleric, he can also cast spells to force enemy out

Can you figure other counter-moves against enemy with cover/concealment?

[Veeda Vidlak]

Excellent. You are right. That is a huge problem for archers.

Possible counter-moves are:
- fly above the cover/concealment if possible
- party wizard casting spells forcing enemy out of cover/concealment
- if archer is a cleric, he can also cast spells to force enemy out

Can you figure other counter-moves against enemy with cover/concealment?

Although kind of expensive, brilliant energy ammunition will shoot right through their cover. A less cool method would be taking the precise shot feats to mitigate the penalties here.

A cloudkill spell should flush them out of cover and getting see invisibility helps.

[drevil]

Stormrage


Stormrage is not core, is it?



Illusion to hide.


Hiding enemy is pain in the ass. Also for melee. Beside amazing spot skills, how can we challenge hide?



Summons to restrict movement (summon devils that raise walls of ice).


That is a good defense. Now, what is the solution?

[drevil]

Deflect Arrows. Snatch Arrows.


A defence against ranged attacks, indeed, but:
only one arrow will be deflected per full round action.

[PhoenixRivers]

A defence against ranged attacks, indeed, but:
only one arrow will be deflected per full round action.

When you're dealing with Ring of Blinking, and other odds reducers, that may well be all that would hit.

[Temotei]

An arrow deflection enchanted shield can give you another arrow-blocking option.

[drevil]

Arrow Deflection combined with:

Ring of Blinking.

Nice arrow defence!


An arrow deflection enchanted shield
Another good idea. Is it core? Where can I find this?

Could you guys also post a solution to your problems, since I am the archer :)

[PhoenixRivers]

Ghost touch weapons and a way to see invisibility will defeat blink.

Not much defense to the arrow deflection, beyond sniping/not letting ppl be aware of the attack.

Blink will get you out of Wall traps (unless wall of force).

[PhoenixRivers]

Rod Of Quicken Cloudkill + Forcecage.

Of course, that's more of a "how to kill most things".

Defense: be larger than 20x20, be immune to poison, have dimension door or similar, or rod of cancellation.

[Slayn82]

Or alternatively: walk on a packed formation in large numbers to prevent forcecage, use a really big mount or a combat vehicle. Have undead horses on it to prevent them dying to poison. Or maybe one elemental.

[PhoenixRivers]

Or alternatively: walk on a packed formation in large numbers to prevent forcecage, use a really big mount or a combat vehicle. Have undead horses on it to prevent them dying to poison. Or maybe one elemental.

If you're using staggered horses, the option exists for 10x10 cages. You'd need 15x15 mounts, staggered correctly for that.

[Wandiya]

Be a better archer and kill them before they kill you?:smallwink:

[Shishnarfne]

Excellent. You are right. That is a huge problem for archers.

Possible counter-moves are:
- fly above the cover/concealment if possible
- party wizard casting spells forcing enemy out of cover/concealment
- if archer is a cleric, he can also cast spells to force enemy out

Can you figure other counter-moves against enemy with cover/concealment?

Counter move for cover/concealment:

Improved Precise Shot

If it's not total cover/concealment, it doesn't help.

Surprised no one's mentioned this yet.

But against total cover/concealment (I can't see you, you can't see me), yeah, you'll have to work around it, remove it, or flush them out.

[sofawall]

Ghost touch weapons and a way to see invisibility will defeat blink.

Not much defense to the arrow deflection, beyond sniping/not letting ppl be aware of the attack.

Blink will get you out of Wall traps (unless wall of force).

Incorporeal =/= Ethereal.

[dhampir984]

Do you know other tactics against an archer?
If you have the solution to the archer-tactics, feel free to post them as well.

Simply effective: Darkness or other vision affecting spells. Or plain old night fighting. Cover the archer in something he can't see out of, then lob fireballs into the general area.

The archer has to shoot blindly while the enemy is free to move about and AoE right into the mess.

[HCL]

Tower shields are nice. Not sure if ranged sundering is possible.

[sofawall]

Simply effective: Darkness or other vision affecting spells. Or plain old night fighting. Cover the archer in something he can't see out of, then lob fireballs into the general area.

The archer has to shoot blindly while the enemy is free to move about and AoE right into the mess.

Darkness makes light, not darkness.

[Harperfan7]

If you're the archer, try to get a ghostform spell and a shield spell, a ghost touch bow, and brilliant energy arrows, force (Arms & Equipment) arrows, and adamantine arrows (see if your DM will let you buy them individually instead of in groups of 50).

If you have all these, they can have all the cover in the world and it won't matter, and you will be able to hit them and they will have a hard time hitting you.

[Temotei]

It (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicArmor.htm#arrowDeflection) is indeed core. It's only for shields though. No armor, unfortunately, short of houserules.

[drevil]

try to get a ghostform spell and a shield spell, a ghost touch bow, and brilliant energy arrows, force (Arms & Equipment) arrows, and adamantine arrows.


Nice idea. Have you tried this? Unfortunately, it is not possible in core.




Simply effective: Darkness or other vision affecting spells.

The archer has to shoot blindly while the enemy is free to move about and AoE right into the mess.

Darkness as in the spell (magical darkness)? Or just the absense of light?
Magical darkness will limit you as well as the archer, right?
Or do you have a core way to get scent?

[RS14]

Arguably, you could ready a standard action to cast mage hand if they fire an arrow at you.

Not by RAW. Your readied action acts before the action that triggers it, so the arrow is still attended and thus not a valid target for mage hand.

[Signmaker]

Nice idea. Have you tried this? Unfortunately, it is not possible in core.

It works well. Unfortunately, it falls in to glass cannon territory, as you're A. Spending a LOT on one strategy and B. are screwed if the opponent has one very specific but useful spell or is a caster that has sufficient anti-nonmaterial spells. Or, for the obvious one, isn't able to be seen. Cause really, being undetectable trumps basically every standard trick.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Concealment is easy to almost bypass at relatively close range. You can pinpoint an enemy within 30ft with a listen check at DC 20. Unless they're using move silently. The dc increases by 1 for every ten feet though so if listen's not a class skill you'll need to stay fairly close. Combine with a seeking weapon and you're golden as far as concealment goes.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Wind Wall is the ultimate "Up Yours!" against archers, completely negating their ability to fire through the area. Massed archers against a Wizard will not likely prove very useful.

And the only solution to that is non-Core. They're called Warlocks.

Another exceeding useful tactic against Archers, particularly ones who have superior positioning that will be difficult to get to them through, is called "Port n Pwn"... a.k.a. "Scry and Die" only without the 'scry' part. In effect, if they won't come to you, then you go to them.

Basically, everyone gathers around the party Wizard, who Teleports them right into the middle of said archers (or around said archer, if single). Proceed to beatdown.

Mirror Image is also invaluable... you might hit me, but which one is really me? An 18.5% chance of even hitting the 'right' me.

Invisibility... you can't hit what you can't see

Now then, a useful tactic for archers is to put a Forcecage around themselves. Why, you ask, would you want to do something so silly as to trap yourselves? Because then they can't come after you. You've got bars, so you can shoot out. But they can't reach you. Neener neener. And if you pack it tight enough in there, they can't port in either.

[Barlen]

possible counter to wind wall: have a caster ally put anti magic field on an arrow and shoot the arrow through the field. The field arrives ahead of the arrow and negates it momentarily as it passes through. If the wizard/sorcerer who is hiding behind it is also flying (standard tactic here, Fly + Wind wall put the caster beyond all but enemy spells normally) and the arrow strikes and embeds it self in him then the AMF cancels the fly spell and down he goes. I think this requires a feat that allows you to cast personal spells as touch spells or something though as the AMF centers on the caster. Can't remember what its called right now.

For extra fun, add a dab of non-magical instant glue (if such a thing exists in your campaign) to the tip of the arrow and the wizard/sorcerer can't easily free himself from the AMF =).

[ShneekeyTheLost]

possible counter to wind wall: have a caster ally put anti magic field on an arrow and shoot the arrow through the field. The field arrives ahead of the arrow and negates it momentarily as it passes through. If the wizard/sorcerer who is hiding behind it is also flying (standard tactic here, Fly + Wind wall put the caster beyond all but enemy spells normally) and the arrow strikes and embeds it self in him then the AMF cancels the fly spell and down he goes. I think this requires a feat that allows you to cast personal spells as touch spells or something though as the AMF centers on the caster. Can't remember what its called right now.

For extra fun, add a dab of non-magical instant glue (if such a thing exists in your campaign) to the tip of the arrow and the wizard/sorcerer can't easily free himself from the AMF =).

Sorry, but AMF is centered on caster. It isn't a Personal spell, it's an emanation centered on yourself, big difference. You need to be an Arcane Archer to pull off this trick.

[imp_fireball]

As I am making an archer (lvl.15), I want to know the intelligent ways of fighting archers.

- Closing the distanse (teleport, high movement speed)
- Protection from Arrows (dont work on magic arrows)
- Wind wall
- Wall of Force/Stone (block arrows)

Do you know other tactics against an archer?
If you have the solution to the archer-tactics, feel free to post them as well.

Pretty much anything will kill an archer. Magic not even required.

[SethFahad]

Defeat an Archer?

... Once upon a time there was a little, simple, low-level spell named Shatter... :smallbiggrin:

[Signmaker]

Pretty much anything will kill an archer. Magic not even required.

Heeeheeehee....

My ToS build-in-progress must disagree.

[Harperfan7]

Are there any rules for shooting a bowstring?

[SethFahad]

Are there any rules for shooting a bowstring?

Shooting the archer in the eye is much easier...

[Shademan]

use a tower shield as concealment.

[Iku Rex]

An archer is vulnerable to sundering.

A regular bow has hardness 5 and 5 hit points ("projectile weapon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/exploration.htm#smashinganObject)"). Even a first level warrior can destroy it with a single good hit. The archer will be in melee, which usually means he'll have to use the bow as an improvised melee weapon (-4 nonproficient penalty, Str to attack roll) for the opposed attack roll.

And if the opponent is really tricky, he'll go for the quiver. A "carried or worn object (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#sunder)" is easy to hit.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Wind wall is a tough one, but mirror image doesn't matter much. If you close your eyes the spell has no effect, then you make the listen check I mentioned in the last post. Depending on your DM this should work. Failing this and for wind wall you'll have to leave core to get around these reliably. Mirror Image and any other illusion is three feats from being a non-issue. Mage-slayer and Pierce magical concealment (which requires blind fight) gets you around all illusory defenses even darkness (which doesn't make much sense, but meh) failing that there's always Greater Many Shot which you should probably have as an archer anyway. Wind wall is still a pain, the first thing that comes to my mind is CW pg 124 the rules for firing an arrow volley. By raw you need ten archers to use these rules but I don't see a problem with a single archer using it. Fire an arrow in a high arc at the enemy's square using a special attack roll (BAB + int + range increment.) If it hits you have a 50/50 shot at the guy in the square though you don't get str to damage. This option definitely requires DM approval though. Oh, and if you can swing it a wand of dispel magic can stomp on most magical defenses w/ a little luck.

[Kelb_Panthera]

An archer is vulnerable to sundering.

A regular bow has hardness 5 and 5 hit points ("projectile weapon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/exploration.htm#smashinganObject)"). Even a first level warrior can destroy it with a single good hit. The archer will be in melee, which usually means he'll have to use the bow as an improvised melee weapon (-4 nonproficient penalty, Str to attack roll) for the opposed attack roll.

And if the opponent is really tricky, he'll go for the quiver. A "carried or worn object (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#sunder)" is easy to hit.

and why exactly is his archer in melee? That just seems like an archer who's either careless or has bad luck.

[JaronK]

A lot of archers have trouble staying far from melee, especially in dungeons where there's not much room to manuever.

Honestly, archers are only great when they get to pick their battlefields. On the move, they're hardly more of a threat than melees.

JaronK

[Kelb_Panthera]

If your DM is constantly putting your archer in situations that demand close-quarters either he's plotted too far in advance or in too great a detail; or he's just being a douche. In either case there's not much you can do except have your archer behave suicidally brave until he bites it, then make a new character.

[Eldariel]

If your DM is constantly putting your archer in situations that demand close-quarters either he's plotted too far in advance or in too great a detail; or he's just being a douche. In either case there's not much you can do except have your archer behave suicidally brave until he bites it, then make a new character.

Hardly malicious intent from a DM if the adventure just happens to contain dungeoncrawls or cityscape adventuring; medieval cities don't exactly have straight streets and dungeons have cramped quarters for obvious reasons so keeping your range isn't really feasible there, no fault of your DM's.

Hell, the same would apply in most forests simply because you can't see very far, and even many mountain ranges are warped enough to prevent efficient long-range archery. Now, open wilderness works fine for archery, but that seems more like to be a medium than a standard adventuring locale. Other than when killing armies.

[Killer Angel]

Pretty much anything will kill an archer. Magic not even required.

If the archer can fly, things get better for him.

[JaronK]

If your DM is constantly putting your archer in situations that demand close-quarters either he's plotted too far in advance or in too great a detail; or he's just being a douche. In either case there's not much you can do except have your archer behave suicidally brave until he bites it, then make a new character.

D&D tends to assume that you're battling in dungeons, tombs, cities, houses, castles, forests, and other areas where cover is common and range is limited. Check out most prepublished adventures... notice where they are. It's not the DM being a douche, it's just a severe limitation of archery builds.

JaronK

[Dr.Epic]

I would say take a level or two of monk. I had an idea for a archer and it involved that. If an enemy ever gets two close you can just kick with you legs, hold onto your bow, and not get attacked for using your bow while next to an opponent.

[Kelb_Panthera]

a well made archer should be able to say, "If I can see it, I can hit it, and if I can tell where it is without seeing it, I can still maybe hit it." In any terrain that's not indoors or cramped underground staying at least one full range increment out shouldn't be that hard, and there are ways to get an arrow past barriers. Only in actual structures made by humanoids should space be cramped enough that an archer will be almost always forced into melee. Not even then if he properly covers his bases for mobility.

The idea that the game nearly always takes place in such environments stems from three things, I think. The title: Dungeons & Dragons, the fact that many of the preconstructed adventures feature them somewhat heavily, and the unfortunate perpetuation of the idea that that's how it's supposed to be. There's nothing in the mechanics that make this an obvious choice, and spell-casters benefit from staying as far away from the enemy as possible as any archer, perhaps more-so.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

No one's mentioned it yet, but DR is a killer to archers. You want to snag lots of arrows of each material, some enchanted with every alignment, and you'll still run into people with DR/Bludgeoning that takes out most of your damage.

[Saph]

Wind Wall isn't a problem for archers - almost no-one has it, and if they're silly enough to waste an action casting it you can just reposition, assuming the rest of the party don't kill them in the meantime. There are some items that will negate Wind Wall, but before you spend thousands of gold on them you should ask yourself: will it really come up enough often to be worth the money?

Protection from Arrows is also trivial. Great, it stops nonmagic arrows. How many PC archers above level 4 don't have a magic bow?

More serious problems for an archer are:

Cover, concealment, and allies in melee: You'll regularly have other party members blocking your shots. The melee issue can be easily dealt with by Precise Shot, but removing cover and concealment requires Improved Precise Shot, which isn't accessible till higher levels. The only real solution until then is teamwork.
Tight terrain: if you're fighting a 10' monster in a 20' by 20' room, it's going to be pretty hard to stay out of reach. In this case the best solution is to get some cover to prevent the AoOs and just accept the -4 penalty.
Damage Reduction: this is the killer at mid to high levels. It's such a big problem that it's well worth saving your gold for a weapon enhancement to negate it (luckily, there's one which shuts it down completely). The other option is to carry around a golf bag of special arrows (silver, cold iron, adamantine, boxing glove, fire extinguisher, whatever) and pick out the right one. However, this won't work once you start getting the annoying stuff like DR/Good, so by then you'll need either a bow enchantment or some really expensive ammo.

[Glyde]

I had a barbarian get frustrated and just hurl his battleaxe at the guy on a natural 20. That seemed to kill the archer.

[Eldariel]

Wind Wall isn't a problem for archers - almost no-one has it, and if they're silly enough to waste an action casting it you can just reposition, assuming the rest of the party don't kill them in the meantime. There are some items that will negate Wind Wall, but before you spend thousands of gold on them you should ask yourself: will it really come up enough often to be worth the money?

This is much harder in longer ranges though, and on higher levels where people can afford the slot for Wind Wall without greatly inconveniencing themselves. If you're e.g. trying to shoot someone from 1 increment away and they raise Wind Wall right in front of them, you've got a long way to go to get around it either way.

If you close in, you'll be in melee combat with whatever melee warriors the other side contains. And if you don't close in, well, you just became trivial.

[Saph]

This is much harder in longer ranges though, and on higher levels where people can afford the slot for Wind Wall without greatly inconveniencing themselves. If you're e.g. trying to shoot someone from 1 increment away and they raise Wind Wall right in front of them, you've got a long way to go to get around it either way.

If you close in, you'll be in melee combat with whatever melee warriors the other side contains. And if you don't close in, well, you just became trivial.

Which would you rather they do: cast a spell that might stop you from using one method of attack, or cast a spell that seriously hurts or kills you?

This is why Wind Wall is a poor spell. It's a reactive spell that can be avoided by a number of means (and it's not a threat), it only prevents one not-all-that-common strategy (archery) and it doesn't even guarantee that it'll stop that. I've seen a few people bring Wind Wall to actual games, and I've yet to see the case where it proved to be a good tactical choice.

[Eldariel]

Which would you rather they do: cast a spell that might stop you from using one method of attack, or cast a spell that seriously hurts or kills you?

From PC perspective, if they're dealing with multiple archers, investing one spell to remove all their offensive capability can be an excellent investment. From NPC perspective, having access to it in the event of ambushes can be a lifesaver.

Of course it's preferable to disable/kill the opponents, but that's not always possible, especially at higher ranges. And damaging them? Well, that doesn't stop them from putting you full of arrows. Wind Wall ensures your ability to cast safely (without disruption from readied actions) and removes the archers from equation. If you're under attack by something else or leaving/teleporting soon or some such, that can be a very welcome effect.

Depending on the nature of the campaign, you may not even need to bother ever killing the archers if they decide to not close in on the Wall, and killing them should be easy in close quarters.


Now, I'll grant you that it's at its best in army confrontations which PCs shouldn't run too often into unexpected, but I do find the spell is worth scrolling once you can use it, and preparing once you can afford the slot. It may not be the perfect answer very often, but it can still be good enough.

[Saph]

Now, I'll grant you that it's at its best in army confrontations which PCs shouldn't run too often into unexpected, but I do find the spell is worth scrolling once you can use it, and preparing once you can afford the slot. It may not be the perfect answer very often, but it can still be good enough.

That's why I think it's a poor spell: it requires a specific set of incredibly rare circumstances to make it the best choice, whereas something basic like Invisibility can cover ten times as many situations. In general, I'm happy if my opponents are casting things like Wind Wall; it means they're reacting to me instead of being a threat.

I think of Wind Wall the same way I think of Forcecage/Cloudkill. Both are effects that seem very powerful to inexperienced players because they give the illusion of absolute safety. They're like huge powerful creatures in Magic: The Gathering. New players see the giant creature with its giant mana cost and think that it's amazing because once they cast it on turn 6 they'll win the game. Then they try to use it and find that getting out a huge powerful creature on turn 6 isn't much use when your opponent can kill you by turn 4 or 5.

[Person_Man]

I would say that the primary problem for archers is boredom. You do pretty much the exact same thing, every round, in every encounter. You can counter this by playing a Cleric archer. At least that way you have spells to throw around when you get tired of Manyshot.

Another problem for archers (which is a problem for every build, but this one more so) is line of sight. If a creature has burrow and is beneath you, or Earthmeld or In corporeality and is in a wall, or is just standing around a wall Summoning things, then you often have trouble getting to it.

[drevil]

Defeat an Archer?

... Once upon a time there was a little, simple, low-level spell named Shatter... :smallbiggrin:

How will Shatter defeat an archer?




An archer is vulnerable to sundering.

A regular bow has hardness 5 and 5 hit points.

Bows are too easy to break! A huge weakness.
What is the hardness/HP on a magical bow?
I must not enter melee with my expensive bow:
"The HeartSeeker"
+1 Flaming, Frost, Shock, Merciful, Holy Composite Longbow (+10STR)

[Pharaoh's Fist]

How will Shatter defeat an archer?


Shatter the thing holding his arrows. Or his bow. Or his arrows.

When he gets magic items, move on to other tactics.

[drevil]

Basically, everyone gathers around the party Wizard, who Teleports them right into the middle of said archers (or around said archer, if single). Proceed to beatdown.

Very nice! Several fullround actions and Attacks of Opportunities.




Concealment is easy to almost bypass at relatively close range. You can pinpoint an enemy within 30ft with a listen check at DC 20... Combine with a seeking weapon and you're golden as far as concealment goes.

So the archer dont have to roll miss chance to hit the enemy if he know which square the enemy is on?
Is the listen DC 20 to seperate different enemies? Even in a loud battle?

[drevil]

Possible solutions to Wind Wall (not 100% bullet proof):

- the archer can fly and stay high above the enemy (shooting from above)
- dispel magic
- use teleport

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Possible solutions to Wind Wall (not 100% bullet proof):

- the archer can fly and stay high above the enemy (shooting from above)
- dispel magic
- use teleportBut if you have spells, why are you futzing around with a bow?

[drevil]

I would say that the primary problem for archers is boredom. You do pretty much the exact same thing, every round, in every encounter. You can counter this by playing a Cleric archer.

My character is a Cleric Archer :smallsmile:




Another problem for archers (which is a problem for every build, but this one more so) is line of sight. If a creature has burrow and is beneath you, or Earthmeld or In corporeality and is in a wall, or is just standing around a wall Summoning things, then you often have trouble getting to it.

I never thought about Burrow, Earthmeld and Incorporals.
Are there any "Ghost Touch" spells available to damage incorporals?
Arrows of Ghost touch, maybe?
How do you handle Borrow/Earthmeld?

[sonofzeal]

I've run two effective archer NPC/villains, but every time I try to roll one as a PC the campaign folds before he hits play. Sigh. Here's the two NPCs though, who were both equal-level with the party, same character creation rules, and managed to dish out serious pain.


- A deafmute Cliffwalker-Shifter Rogue loaded up with Shifting feats. He'd sneak around, snipe from windows and trees where he could have cover against return fire, and then escape via his impressive Climb speed if the fight turned against him, only to come back and start laying down Rapid Shot Sneak Attack another day. Eventually the PCs managed to surround him and beat him to a pulp.

- A hobgoblin Fighter, using his Fighter feats to pick up Rapid Shot, Deflect Arrows, and Improved Grapple. Again he'd use tactically significant terrain such as something tall, firing arrows down and deflecting any that came back up, and if anyone climbed the tower he'd attempt to use Grapple to chuck them off of it. Eventually he was beaten with the help of magic.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Possible solutions to Wind Wall (not 100% bullet proof):

- the archer can fly and stay high above the enemy (shooting from above)
- dispel magic
- use teleport

Is the archer a wizard too?

[Saph]

Possible solutions to Wind Wall:

- Walk through the Wind Wall and shoot the guy.
- Walk away from the Wind Wall, around a corner, and inspect your nails while you wait for him to come to you.
- Use a bow that shoots through Wind Walls.
- Wait for the rest of the party to kill the guy while he's wasting his time casting Wind Walls.
- Kill him with something else.

[drevil]

Is the archer a wizard too?


Its a Cleric Archer.

[drevil]

- Walk through the Wind Wall and shoot the guy.
- Walk away from the Wind Wall, around a corner, and inspect your nails while you wait for him to come to you.
- Use a bow that shoots through Wind Walls.
- Wait for the rest of the party to kill the guy while he's wasting his time casting Wind Walls.
- Kill him with something else.

The simple is often the best!

Which bows can shoot through Wind Walls? Gargantuan Bows the Dragons use?

[HailDiscordia]

Cast Ray of Enfeeblement, make them too weak to pull back that composite bow.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Be sure to have Invisibility Purge as well.

[2xMachina]

The simple is often the best!

Which bows can shoot through Wind Walls? Gargantuan Bows the Dragons use?

Force bow. Uses force arrows.

All arrows do not pass wind wall, no matter the size.

EDIT: BTW, enchant the bow with the anti-illusion thing from MIC. Forgot the exact name, but you can ignore miss chance.

The higher one even steals the spell. Not sure if it's valid for ranged weapons though.

[Saph]

Which bows can shoot through Wind Walls?

Force enchantment, Magic Item Compendium (a fairly common book), +2 cost. It turns arrows into force projectiles, allowing them to automatically overcome DR and hit everything that force effects can (such as incorporeals). As a side benefit it also deals with Wind Wall, since Wind Wall only interferes with arrows, bolts, and other normal ranged weapons.

[Sharkman1231]

Max out tumble, I personally don't think SotR is worth 3 feats. Or snag close-combat shot (OotBI(CW)) if you've got the hit pionts and/or AC.

[drevil]

Which bows can shoot through Wind Walls?


Force enchantment, Magic Item Compendium (a fairly common book), +2 cost.


We are limited to core. But a nice counter, indeed.

[Signmaker]

Bows are too easy to break! A huge weakness.
What is the hardness/HP on a magical bow?
I must not enter melee with my expensive bow:
"The HeartSeeker"
+1 Flaming, Frost, Shock, Merciful, Holy Composite Longbow (+10STR)

5+(2/[+1]) Hardness
5+(10/[+1]) HP

[dhampir984]

Darkness as in the spell (magical darkness)? Or just the absense of light? Magical darkness will limit you as well as the archer, right?
Or do you have a core way to get scent?

Both the spell and the absence of light. I played a fighter with the archery feats and got hit by this problem several times.

I don't have a way to get scent using core rules. Someone else might, but I can't think of one.

[Eldariel]

Seeking bow is always a must. It does everything Improved Precise Shot does while also ignoring a crapton of problematic conditions where you couldn't shoot properly. Need to see target, of course, once you do, practically nothing will get in the way.

[Saph]

Seeking bow is always a must. It does everything Improved Precise Shot does while also ignoring a crapton of problematic conditions where you couldn't shoot properly.

Not quite. It doesn't negate cover, and it doesn't allow you to fire into a grapple. The reason Improved Precise Shot is so nice is that it allows you to ignore anything less than total cover, so you can stand where you are and Rapid Shot all the time.

[Kelb_Panthera]

So the archer dont have to roll miss chance to hit the enemy if he know which square the enemy is on?
Is the listen DC 20 to seperate different enemies? Even in a loud battle?

With a seeking bow, no he doesn't have to roll miss chance, at least not against concealment, and if listen is a class skill getting and keeping your modifier high enough to be able to pinpoint even through noise and obstacles isn't that hard. DC 20 to locate one enemy using the normal modifiers. EG: You're a 10th level ranger with a longbow. Listen modifier is +25 with no attempt at optimization. The enemy is a full 120ft away for -2, assuming battle is already joined you take a -5 for being distracted, but you get a bonus for the enemy is probably moving around the battlefield so that's +4 so unless he's actively trying to move silently you don't even need to roll. If he tries to move silently, things change in a hurry, but how often does an enemy try to move silently around a battlefield? Using listen to pinpoint an enemy is a free action once per round. Since it's generally better to take out one enemy at a time that's really not a problem.

[Eldariel]

Not quite. It doesn't negate cover, and it doesn't allow you to fire into a grapple. The reason Improved Precise Shot is so nice is that it allows you to ignore anything less than total cover, so you can stand where you are and Rapid Shot all the time.

True. Seeking ignores total concealment, various kinds of invisibility, mirror images and the like though, making it all kinds of awesome.

[Sir Giacomo]

True. Seeking ignores total concealment, various kinds of invisibility, mirror images and the like though, making it all kinds of awesome.

In particular considering its low cost (only +1 enhancement bonus equivalent, possibly the best in the core game).

- Giacomo

[Saph]

True. Seeking ignores total concealment, various kinds of invisibility, mirror images and the like though, making it all kinds of awesome.

Yeah, I guess it really comes into its own at high levels. I still like Improved Precise, though, since it makes it so much easier to use Rapid Shot (and because fighting in dungeons and indoors, there's always cover of some kind).

[Eldariel]

Yeah, I guess it really comes into its own at high levels. I still like Improved Precise, though, since it makes it so much easier to use Rapid Shot (and because fighting in dungeons and indoors, there's always cover of some kind).

I'd want IPS just so I don't have to start figuring out covers for each shot :smallannoyed:

[Seffbasilisk]

Using listen to pinpoint an enemy is a free action once per round.

My apologies for ignorance, but could you give me a book/page number on that one? I've been using ad-hoc rules for such situations for...years now.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

A reactive listen is definitely a free action.

[Skaven]

I remember a friend used to lug around a masterwork tower shield on his back, set to i the ground (was built with anchors or something) and used to shoot from behind the cover it provides. Was a low level game, but *shrug*

[Kelb_Panthera]

My apologies for ignorance, but could you give me a book/page number on that one? I've been using ad-hoc rules for such situations for...years now.

The rules I'm citing are the rules for pinpointing an invisible enemy on DMG pg 295. Only the strictest of RAW devotees won't let you use the same rules for any enemy you can't see.

[olentu]

The rules I'm citing are the rules for pinpointing an invisible enemy on DMG pg 295. Only the strictest of RAW devotees won't let you use the same rules for any enemy you can't see.

Hmm that is a strange place to put something that one would think should be in the skill section but perhaps they wished to be quite specific that it only works in the case of invisibility.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Hmm that is a strange place to put something that one would think should be in the skill section but perhaps they wished to be quite specific that it only works in the case of invisibility.

I doubt it was so much a deliberate choice as an editing oversight. WotC has a well-deserved reputation for that sort of thing.

[olentu]

I doubt it was so much a deliberate choice as an editing oversight. WotC has a well-deserved reputation for that sort of thing.

That would certainly be reasonable as well but I would also not find it out of character for them to have deliberately limited the ability of listen checks to only pinpointing invisible creatures.

[Kelb_Panthera]

That would certainly be reasonable as well but I would also not find it out of character for them to have deliberately limited the ability of listen checks to only pinpointing invisible creatures.

In either case it's still extremely reasonable to allow for otherwise unseen enemies. Especially since listen's not that common as a class skill. After all, game specific term aside, invisible literally means not visible.

[olentu]

In either case it's still extremely reasonable to allow for otherwise unseen enemies. Especially since listen's not that common as a class skill. After all, game specific term aside, invisible literally means not visible.

Well I suppose it would be a reasonable thing to houserule but then again I would find it just as reasonable not to.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Well I suppose it would be a reasonable thing to houserule but then again I would find it just as reasonable not to.

Really? In what way could it be considered unreasonable?

[olentu]

Really? In what way could it be considered unreasonable?

To clarify and be sure of understanding I meant that I would find the choice of making such a houserule and the choice of not making such a housrule to both be reasonable. If your question remains then please make a note of it and I will see about answering.

[Kelb_Panthera]

To clarify and be sure of understanding I meant that I would find the choice of making such a houserule and the choice of not making such a housrule to both be reasonable. If your question remains then please make a note of it and I will see about answering.

Ah, I thought you meant the houserule itself. I suppose if the DM says from the beginning that, "we're going strictly by the books. I mean rules-lawyer interpretations of the rules," then such a ruling would be reasonable. I just don't see something so obvious being ruled against except in cases of oversight. That is, the DM doesn't know about that particular rule at all.