(3.5) Spells which age gracefully

[Coidzor]

So, other than utility spells which are always of, well, utility... What are some spells that continue to be relevant rather than useless once they're no longer the highest spell level available to a full caster?

As an additional note, at what point does each level of spells depreciate to the point where it would be considered useless to use instead of a higher level spell slot?

[Temotei]

A lot of cantrips and orisons are useful no matter what level you are.

Prestidigitation, mage hand, create food and water, ghost sound...those are core.

There are others, obviously. Fly is always a good 3rd level slot to have.

[mostlyharmful]

spells that perform useful but noncombat related stuff or can be used creatively have the best shelf life, prestidigitation, illusion spells, magecraft, comprehend languages, etc....

And each level of spells has it's uses, once you have several then you change what you use the lower ones for sure but they still play a role. there's some good 1st and 2nd level stuff to boost higher level casting (true strike, true casting, create magic tattoo, etc...) and 3rd and 4th has some of the best buffs in the game in it, both for the whole team and for self-protection. 5th has some excelent transport and divination for all casters and 6th plus stay relivant into epic if used right.

[Temotei]

Oh, and enervation.

[Rixx]

Expeditious Retreat, Shield, and True Strike are favorites of mine.

[Longcat]

Glitterdust
Overland Flight
Benign Transposition
Alter Self
Draconic Polymorph
Silent Image

[Veeda Vidlak]

Grease, glitterdust, wind wall, solid fog, web, and many other battlefield control spells are useful at just about any level against an enemy not outright immune to them, or for helpfully moving your party around.

Many illusions remain powerful at higher levels. Of particular note is silent image which is a level one spell strong at any level and greater mirror image which is one of the best defensive spells of all.

A buff that grants untyped bonuses, long durations, scaling benefits, or rare/powerful abilities are always good. Some great spells here include fly and overland flight, xorn movement, phantom steed, alter self, heart of water, greater magic weapon/vestment, voice of the dragon, celerity, and greater blink.

Wraithstrike if anything is better at higher levels due to stronger attacks and cheap stuff like persist spell.

Debuffs that don't allow saves (notably rays) are awesome against single strong enemies. Keep rays of enfeeblement/exhaustion/dizziness/etc ready in some lower slots.

Finally, always have feather fall on hand in some way, shape, or form.

[Superglucose]

Core Only?

Shield
Mage Armor
Obscuring Mist
Ray of Enfeeblement
Expeditious Retreat
Feather Fall
Enlarge Person
Glitterdust
Web
Mirror Image
Stinking Cloud
Displacement
Blink
Fly
Ray of Exhaustion
Haste

Those are all 3rd level or lower spells that I could think of good uses for up to 20th level. Other spells (Alter Self) are notably powerful, but since Alter Self is like Polymorph-- I didn't include it.

All of these spells do something important that doesn't matter if the enemy passes their save... Obscuring Mist is, for instance, good for giving your rogue cover. Stinking Cloud, however, is really good for when you want to mess with your opponent's vision; they're likely to pass the save, sure, but the off chance they fail (and become nauseated, a ridiculously powerful condition) is so worth it since the main reason you cast it is to slow down the enemy.

[Eldariel]

Glucose's list lacks a few:
- True Strike
- Reduce Person
- Magic Aura
- Protection from Alignment (or Magic Circle)
- Alarm
- Charm Person (use with unconscious people)

- Fog Cloud
- Pyrotechnics
- False Life
- Spectral Hand
- Knock
- Obscure Object
- Rope Trick
- See Invisibility

- Explosive Runes
- Phantom Steed
- Nondetection
- Heroism (10 min/level so Extendable to make it last all day, making it worthwhile alongside Greater)
- Wind Wall
- Invisibility Sphere (one of the easiest way to make a bunch of people Invisible)
- Keen Edge
- Greater Magic Weapon
- Secret Page
- Waterbreathing
- Slow


Only Slow of those is negated by a save, and it's multitarget, targets Will and so devastating on a failed save that I won't mind casting it. Low-level spells in D&D are amazing. Cantrips like Prestidigitation, Detect Magic and company can have great benefits too.

Really, it's just nice to be able to prepare spells for cornercases with your free slots from the low levels. And level 3 is jampacked with various awesome party buffs that don't get obsoleted ever; Keen Edge, Greater Magic Weapon, Phantom Steed, Heroism, Haste, Blink, etc.

[PhoenixRivers]

I wouldn't put Shield on the list. As you progress, +4 Shield to AC starts meaning less and less.

[onthetown]

+4 AC is always needed and useful for a wizard. Most appreciate it, anyway.

Feather fall. I can't stress it enough. I never prepare spells without having at least one slot with feather fall.

[Cespenar]

Heh. Though I always thought the same about Feather Fall myself, the situation never really called for it. Even once. Meh, probably it's personal experiences and all that. I don't take it to my wizards these days.

[PhoenixRivers]

+4 AC is always needed and useful for a wizard. Most appreciate it, anyway.

Feather fall. I can't stress it enough. I never prepare spells without having at least one slot with feather fall.

Really?

Let's look at the things that you're fighting at level 15+.

Attack bonus in the neighborhood of +30-50.

You really think that the wizard is going to have an AC high enough to make +4 AC meaningful?

Assume a wizard with 24 dex, Bracers of armor +8, Ring of Protection +5, Amulet of natural armor +5.

That's AC 35, with incredible investment.

This means that if the enemy's attack bonus is +38 or more? Shield was useless. Why? Because either way, it hits on a 2.

The issue is that AC (unless heavily optimized) is pointless to dabble in. You're better of with Obscuring Mist or somesuch that grants a miss chance.

[mostlyharmful]

The issue is that AC (unless heavily optimized) is pointless to dabble in. You're better of with Obscuring Mist or somesuch that grants a miss chance.

Against CR-appro sure but they've got minions, often low enough to not matter for xp and plenty of DMs like to grind before a big fight.

[PhoenixRivers]

Against CR-appro sure but they've got minions, often low enough to not matter for xp and plenty of DMs like to grind before a big fight.

Miss chances serve you well there too.

At level 20, a CR 17 (minion) can still be rockin' a +40 or higher to hit.

Look at Elemental Monoliths, for example.

[J.Gellert]

Miss chances serve you well there too.

At level 20, a CR 17 (minion) can still be rockin' a +40 or higher to hit.

Look at Elemental Monoliths, for example.

Elemental Monoliths aren't exactly your average, "for example" monster.

Both in terms of strength, and how often they appear in games.

So yeah.

[mostlyharmful]

Elemental Monoliths aren't exactly your average, "for example" monster.

Both in terms of strength, and how often they appear in games.

So yeah.

He's referencing a game we're in at the moment with a sneaky dragon and a monolith minion/distraction.

[Runestar]

The issue is that AC (unless heavily optimized) is pointless to dabble in. You're better of with Obscuring Mist or somesuch that grants a miss chance.

That's why I typically use power attack to reduce a monster's attack rating to a point where it actually has a decent chance of missing the PCs, thus making their AC worthwhile again. Most monsters tend to have multiple natural attacks anyways, so they should still be able to hit with ~ half of them for respectable damage.

This also discourages the players from engaging in reckless behaviour (like reducing their AC to 0 to fuel shock trooper/robilar's gambit) while improving the monster's base damage.:smallsmile:

It is like a slap in the face to a fighter when, despite all the resources he has placed into boosting his AC, the tarrasque still hits him on a roll of 2 or greater (assume that the environment does not make it conducive for flying). :smallfurious:

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Wings of Cover and Wings of Flurry. Worth a spell known basically from the instant you can cast that level of spells.

[Zaydos]

Personally I like Greater Luminous Armor (+8 AC, -4 to be hit in melee), level 4, with a cost when it ends (Str damage), and has some really heavy competition for the slot (polymorph, greater mirror image, dimension door, etc) though. When you get it your AC is boosted to high enough that it's good, later on it gets worse though. I had an arcane hierophant that used it at Lv 20 and with wild shape, ring of protection +5, barkskin, and he had a decent AC.

But a lot of 3rd and 4th level spells remain useful for buffing forever.

[Yukitsu]

I find I'm more likely to take magic missile at later levels, where I don't need my ones, and I want to keep a cheap nuking spell to chip off incorporeal creatures, who tend to have low HP counts and don't warrant my bigger spells. Low levels, the spell's nearly useless.

[The White Knight]

Personally I like Greater Luminous Armor (+8 AC, -4 to be hit in melee), level 4, with a cost when it ends (Str damage), and has some really heavy competition for the slot (polymorph, greater mirror image, dimension door, etc) though. When you get it your AC is boosted to high enough that it's good, later on it gets worse though. I had an arcane hierophant that used it at Lv 20 and with wild shape, ring of protection +5, barkskin, and he had a decent AC.

But a lot of 3rd and 4th level spells remain useful for buffing forever.

Gets even better with levels in Abjurant Champion, since Luminous Armor is Abjuration rather than Conjuration, IIRC.

[Mongoose87]

Gets even better with levels in Abjurant Champion, since Luminous Armor is Abjuration rather than Conjuration, IIRC.

I've always been curious about that spell - what's the duration of the ability score damage?

[Tao the Ninja]

Really?

Let's look at the things that you're fighting at level 15+.

Attack bonus in the neighborhood of +30-50.

You really think that the wizard is going to have an AC high enough to make +4 AC meaningful?

Assume a wizard with 24 dex, Bracers of armor +8, Ring of Protection +5, Amulet of natural armor +5.

That's AC 35, with incredible investment.

This means that if the enemy's attack bonus is +38 or more? Shield was useless. Why? Because either way, it hits on a 2.

The issue is that AC (unless heavily optimized) is pointless to dabble in. You're better of with Obscuring Mist or somesuch that grants a miss chance.

Can't you cast shield on bbn and mnk friends:smallconfused:? I thought it was touch. I'm probably wrong tho...:smallfrown:

[The Glyphstone]

I've always been curious about that spell - what's the duration of the ability score damage?

Pretty sure it's just normal ability damage, like being poisoned. Can be Restorationed, slept off, or whatever.

[Zaydos]

Yes it is and yes it does. Works well with Shield on Abjurant Champion for +22 AC from those two spells, and shield spell is autoquickened. But that's a PrC and specific build so I didn't feel right suggesting it. Through in Level 3 Dragonskin for +5 Nat armor and energy resistance 20, and a ring of protection +5 and you already have 42 + Dex AC and -4 to be hit in melee (at level 20 not wonderful against = CR but most lower CR creatures will have trouble), then take Dusty Rose Ioun Stone for another +1 and +6 Dex item for 46 + base Dex mod. Then use Polymorph (or better yet Draconic Polymorph) to take a good form (or if you can Shapechange although that's not low level) and you have some really good AC (76 if you take on a pit fiend form with Shapechange), but by this point it's some level of AC optimization (although only 55000 GP and 5 levels of Abjurant Champion, plus 3 spell slots as polymorph of some sort is likely to be used anyway). If you're dealing with attack bonuses from +30 to +50 then you aren't about to be hit (5% chance of being hit, before you throw in miss chances).

Edit: It's normal ability damage so get a rod of bodily restoration and you can negate three castings worth of damage a day for less than 5000 GP. Plus you can cast it on a good aligned monk ally which is fun.

[PhoenixRivers]

Yes it is and yes it does. Works well with Shield on Abjurant Champion for +22 AC from those two spells, and shield spell is autoquickened. But that's a PrC and specific build so I didn't feel right suggesting it. Through in Level 3 Dragonskin for +5 Nat armor and energy resistance 20, and a ring of protection +5 and you already have 42 + Dex AC and -4 to be hit in melee (at level 20 not wonderful against = CR but most lower CR creatures will have trouble), then take Dusty Rose Ioun Stone for another +1 and +6 Dex item for 46 + base Dex mod. Then use Polymorph (or better yet Draconic Polymorph) to take a good form (or if you can Shapechange although that's not low level) and you have some really good AC (76 if you take on a pit fiend form with Shapechange), but by this point it's some level of AC optimization (although only 55000 GP and 5 levels of Abjurant Champion, plus 3 spell slots as polymorph of some sort is likely to be used anyway). If you're dealing with attack bonuses from +30 to +50 then you aren't about to be hit (5% chance of being hit, before you throw in miss chances).

Edit: It's normal ability damage so get a rod of bodily restoration and you can negate three castings worth of damage a day for less than 5000 GP. Plus you can cast it on a good aligned monk ally which is fun.

Or Bind Naberius to get rid of 1 point per round. For 1 feat, but that's outside core.

All this demonstrates is that in specific builds, the spells can be useful. That makes them "situational".

Without levels in PrC's amping them up, every level gained pulls it farther behind.

[Draz74]

Or Bind Naberius to get rid of 1 point per round. For 1 feat level, but that's outside core.

Fixed that for you.

[Zaydos]

Even without PrCs you end up with 66 which is just as good for the most part. Actually in the above example Shield's +9 was mostly redundant. Even a CR 22 Great Wyrm Black Dragon (first dragon I came to) has only a +46 to hit. The tarrasque which its +57 is a threat if you aren't an abjurant champion at this point but it still gives even it a 60% chance of missing, but without quickening shield it's not worth it. I'd still use Gr Luminous Armor and Dragonskin and go with a +5 Mithril Buckler (for 68 AC, costs total is getting rather high with almost 90000 GP spent though). At this point without classes tarrasque has a 30% accuracy (worse with secondary attacks) and most things have a significantly worse one (5% is common). Even without the buckler that +8 AC from Greater Luminous Armor remains good and is worth the slot to keep from paying 64000 for an item which does it worse.

[Zaq]

Faerie Fire never goes out of style. Casters can frequently see or detect concealed foes, but that doesn't do too much good if your rogue buddy still can't get to them. If you don't feel like wanding it, you can get a ring that has it 5/day (with some negligible lightning damage to boot) relatively cheaply in the MiC... I think it's called the Stormfire Ring.

For our cleric friends, Sign gives a +4 untyped bonus to initiative (well, to your first check within 10 min/level). If you have a decent feeling about when combat's going to happen (for example, before opening a door to an unknown area), it's almost always worth it. It's also a perfect wand spell. It's basically Nerveskitter for clerics.

It takes a specific build to care about it, but if Sniper's Shot is ever useful to you, it'll always stay useful.

[Otodetu]

On high attack bonus enemies and shield spell wizard; why do you presume you will only engage in hostility with correct cr enemies?

With low armour class a low cr threat can become a real danger.

And shield negates magic missile attacks, and it is a common enough attack spell.

[herrhauptmann]

Yes it is and yes it does. Works well with Shield on Abjurant Champion for +22 AC from those two spells, and shield spell is autoquickened. But that's a PrC and specific build so I didn't feel right suggesting it. Through in Level 3 Dragonskin for +5 Nat armor and energy resistance 20, and a ring of protection +5 and you already have 42 + Dex AC and -4 to be hit in melee (at level 20 not wonderful against = CR but most lower CR creatures will have trouble), then take Dusty Rose Ioun Stone for another +1 and +6 Dex item for 46 + base Dex mod.

I'm not sure how you get the 42+dex. 10 points for natural armor and the ring of protection, ok.
But how does abjurant champion give you a +22 by casting Shield and Greater Luminous armor? Shield is a +4, and it was said earlier that G. Luminous is a +8 ac (with a -4 penalty to being hit in melee?:smallconfused:) Don't currently have access to all my books, so I have to ask.

To the OP, though it's been said, haste is always useful. Heck, they made a Prestige Class built around the spell.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

But how does abjurant champion give you a +22 by casting Shield and Greater Luminous armor?

That's your answer right there.

[Lysander]

Protection from Arrows is always useful. Not against individual high level archers with enchanted bows, but you never know when you're going to be attacked by a battalion of low level archers.

How about Shatter? Being able to break any non-magical item of your choice is nice.

Explosive Runes is always good.

[Eldariel]

Protection from Arrows is always useful. Not against individual high level archers with enchanted bows, but you never know when you're going to be attacked by a battalion of low level archers.

I'd wager stuff like Invisibility is much, much better there.

[Pyro_Azer]

I cannot believe no one has said detect magic yet. That spell is always useful.

[Eldariel]

I cannot believe no one has said detect magic yet. That spell is always useful.


Only Slow of those is negated by a save, and it's multitarget, targets Will and so devastating on a failed save that I won't mind casting it. Low-level spells in D&D are amazing. Cantrips like Prestidigitation, Detect Magic and company can have great benefits too.

I disagree with the premise.

[Zaydos]

I'm not sure how you get the 42+dex. 10 points for natural armor and the ring of protection, ok.
But how does abjurant champion give you a +22 by casting Shield and Greater Luminous armor? Shield is a +4, and it was said earlier that G. Luminous is a +8 ac (with a -4 penalty to being hit in melee?:smallconfused:) Don't currently have access to all my books, so I have to ask.

To the OP, though it's been said, haste is always useful. Heck, they made a Prestige Class built around the spell.

Abjurant Champion adds your class level to the AC bonus of any abjuration school spell that grants armor or shield bonuses. So shield becomes +9 and Greater Luminous Armor becomes +13.

[Sinfire Titan]

I'm not sure how you get the 42+dex. 10 points for natural armor and the ring of protection, ok.
But how does abjurant champion give you a +22 by casting Shield and Greater Luminous armor? Shield is a +4, and it was said earlier that G. Luminous is a +8 ac (with a -4 penalty to being hit in melee?:smallconfused:) Don't currently have access to all my books, so I have to ask.

To the OP, though it's been said, haste is always useful. Heck, they made a Prestige Class built around the spell.

Abjurant Champion's class feature adds his class level to the AC bonus provided by Abjuration spells that grant a Shield/Armor bonus to AC. Thus you get an additional +10 AC on top of Shield and Greater Luminous Armor's +12 total. For extra AC, cast Greater Shield instead.

Edit: ninja'ed.

[Pyro_Azer]

I disagree with the premise.

Oops, missed that.

[deuxhero]

+4 AC is always needed and useful for a wizard. Most appreciate it, anyway.


Unless he has a Mithiral Twilight Chain Shirt and isn't an AC.

[JaronK]

Grease never gets old, as it will always make enemies flat footed (so it's wonderful if you have a Rogue/Ninja/Factotum/Swordsage/whatever). Nerveskitter and Magecraft are great too.

And how could Wings of Flurry ever get old? Or Shrink Item?

JaronK

[jiriku]

That's why I typically use power attack to reduce a monster's attack rating to a point where it actually has a decent chance of missing the PCs, thus making their AC worthwhile again. Most monsters tend to have multiple natural attacks anyways, so they should still be able to hit with ~ half of them for respectable damage.

This also discourages the players from engaging in reckless behaviour (like reducing their AC to 0 to fuel shock trooper/robilar's gambit) while improving the monster's base damage.:smallsmile:

It is like a slap in the face to a fighter when, despite all the resources he has placed into boosting his AC, the tarrasque still hits him on a roll of 2 or greater (assume that the environment does not make it conducive for flying). :smallfurious:

Here, here! Building monsters with +Yes to hit is just sloppy DMing, and punishes players for investing resources in AC (which is something that ought to be a good idea). Power Attack and Combat Expertise are the DMs two best friends when customizing monsters, allowing you to create more balanced opponents by converting that excess to-hit into AC or damage.

[Saph]

Really?

Let's look at the things that you're fighting at level 15+.

Attack bonus in the neighborhood of +30-50.

You really think that the wizard is going to have an AC high enough to make +4 AC meaningful?

1. Iterative attacks.
2. Power Attack.

At higher levels, pretty much every melee enemy has both, meaning that if you're going to be in melee your AC is very relevant.

Not generally worth spending an action on, of course, but if you know you're likely to get into a fight trading a 1st-level spell slot for +4 AC isn't a bad deal. I'm especially fond of it since I use the Abjurant Champion prestige class a lot.

[herrhauptmann]

Abjurant Champion adds your class level to the AC bonus of any abjuration school spell that grants armor or shield bonuses. So shield becomes +9 and Greater Luminous Armor becomes +13.

Ahh... That makes sense now.
Now I understand better why pretty much every melee focused swiftblade has several levels in Abjurant Champion.

[Radiun]

Blinding Spittle (SPC) is always nice, though it is SR yes :-(
Animal Growth is one of the best buffs in the game
Wall of Thorns just gets better and better, though more and more creautre will probably be able to make the DC 25 check to move 5ft (30 for 10ft, 35 for 15ft, etc.)
Stone Shape, Greater(SpC) scales much more nicely than Stone Shape
Spellstaff, because more spells = good
Energy Immunity(SpC) will always be a friend