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Tyndmyr
2010-01-17, 09:48 AM
Well, look at it at low levels. Full round casting time is a big negative, and the duration is frankly, terrible. round/level makes this an abysmal trade for the first coupla levels, and the monsters are generally fairly weak.

Now, you can partially fix this with extend/persist, but for most builds, this is going to mean casting a Summon Monster quite a bit below your spell level. Yay, now at level 15, you can persist a Summon Monster 1. This is damn near completely useless. Heck, most of the SM 1 options are lucky to get in a single point of damage, and are too small to be useful as battlefield control.

Sure, you *could* work on optimizing it, but it's usually better to start with something worthwhile in the first place.

Alternatively, you could pull it a summon monster 7 at that level...but again, full round casting, so it doesn't even become useful until turn 2, and you run the risk of being interrupted by anyone bright enough to stab a caster. Once it does come in, yay, you have a CR 5-9 mob in a level 15 fight. You could have, instead, fried or immobilized 1+ of the enemy mobs, which would have swung the balance of power much more.

So, I ask you...when is the summon monster line useful, and how do you make it so?

Grumman
2010-01-17, 09:50 AM
You can't persist Summon Monster anyway, since it has a variable range.

HCL
2010-01-17, 09:51 AM
Summon monster 3 is generally considered the best level summon monster spell for its level combat wise. Some monsters have SLAs which makes the spell pretty versatile. There are plenty of things you can do to beef up your summon monster spells like Augment summoning, thaumaturgist, malconvoker, and the raptoran cleric subs.

graeylin
2010-01-17, 09:59 AM
i like it.. being able to get a couple allies in a fight can mean a big difference.. they do some damage, freeing you to cast more spells. At low levels, a bag of tricks may be better, but at mid to high levels, being able to summon multiples and choosing the right creature (elemental, archons, etc.) can be tide turning.

Tyndmyr
2010-01-17, 09:59 AM
You can't persist Summon Monster anyway, since it has a variable range.

Good call. Extend is as good as it gets.

Saph
2010-01-17, 10:00 AM
It can be okay for clerics, but, as you've noted, at low levels the duration is too short to be worthwhile, and most of the summonables are very weak.

Wizards and sorcerers don't have much reason to use it, as the whole point of being an arcane caster is to use the spells which the cleric DOESN'T get. And druids have the far superior Summon Nature's Ally.

Finally, note that the Summon spells all take one full round to cast, which, to any minimally intelligent enemy, is the equivalent of holding up a sign saying "Hey everyone, I'm casting a slow and powerful spell! You should hit me and disrupt it!"

ex cathedra
2010-01-17, 10:09 AM
It's not as good as Summon Nature's Ally, especially with certain items and feats, but it's possible through several means to reduce the casting time to a normal standard action. In low levels, the duration is far too short, and in high levels, the effect is far too negligible, but there's a sweet spot around SMIII and SMIV in which it can be quite usable.

Starbuck_II
2010-01-17, 10:10 AM
Well, look at it at low levels. Full round casting time is a big negative, and the duration is frankly, terrible. round/level makes this an abysmal trade for the first coupla levels, and the monsters are generally fairly weak.

Now, you can partially fix this with extend/persist, but for most builds, this is going to mean casting a Summon Monster quite a bit below your spell level. Yay, now at level 15, you can persist a Summon Monster 1. This is damn near completely useless. Heck, most of the SM 1 options are lucky to get in a single point of damage, and are too small to be useful as battlefield control.

Sure, you *could* work on optimizing it, but it's usually better to start with something worthwhile in the first place.


Um, Arcane casters cast SM spells as standard action. At least Conjurers will.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/specialistWizardVariants.htm#conjurerVariants


SM 1 is used for Spiders (web).

Leolo
2010-01-17, 10:14 AM
It is ok, if you can use the specialist variants from UA and/or some good options from the complete series.

A focussed Conjurer with rapid augmented summoning and levels in malconvoker or master specialist may be as awesome as every other good wizard build.

But without setting the character focus strongly on summonings there are better spells to take.

AmberVael
2010-01-17, 10:19 AM
Finally, note that the Summon spells all take one full round to cast, which, to any minimally intelligent enemy, is the equivalent of holding up a sign saying "Hey everyone, I'm casting a slow and powerful spell! You should hit me and disrupt it!"

And unfortunately, it isn't a slow and powerful spell, it's just a slow spell. :smalltongue:

I'd personally up the duration of Summon Monster, and drop the casting time to a standard action.

Tyndmyr
2010-01-17, 10:20 AM
Yeah, standard action and minute/level would make it much more worthwhile. At least then, it'd always last through an entire combat...possibly two if they're quite close together or it's extended.

grautry
2010-01-17, 10:26 AM
If you focus on it, it's a viable build for arcane casters(Malconvoker <3).

Generally speaking they're worthwhile spells that can do quite a lot of good, so it's nice to know at least some summon spells. They're plenty versatile(SLAs/spells), they can act as tanks, as BFC(quite a lot of summons have very high grapple checks for example) or as literal trap monkeys.

They're not meant to last for long since most battles won't last longer than a couple of rounds anyway.

But druids are better at summoning anyway.

Nich_Critic
2010-01-17, 10:36 AM
Conjurers can take an ACF that reduces summoning to a standard action, making it much more useful. The Malconvoker PrC is very good for summoning: Free extend if you're summoning an evil creature and can make a trivial bluff check, which stacks with extend proper so you can easily have your monsters last the duration of the battle, plus if you're summoning a fiend from level 5 onwards, you actually summon two. When you look at the spells some of those demons/devils/fiends have, this can be pretty powerful.

If you aren't using either of those, rapid spell at least gets rid of the one round casting time. I'd say in general it's not worth it, although it's nice to throw down a summon monster 1, even if all it does is provide a flank for the rogue and aid another. I think that's a solid use of a 1st level spell. The cool thing is, no one will attack the monster, being that it's weak, so it can keep doing it's tiny buffs round after round. If they do attack it, they've wasted that attack which could have hit an ally. Beware of cleave though.

DragoonWraith
2010-01-17, 11:04 AM
Out of the box, no.

But... Focused Conjurer 3 with Rapid Conjuring and Enhanced Conjuring, Master Specialist 4 (or possibly 10), Malconvoker 5, Paragnostic Apostle 1 (or possibly Sacred Exorcist 1, Paragnostic Apostle 5)... you can now cast Summon Monster as a Standard action, you get two extra per day per level, you've gotten Augment Summoning for free, your summons get bonus HP equal to your caster level (which is at least +1 if you have MS 6), your summons are extended for free, you get an extra summon every time you use Summon Monster, and your summons get Fast Healing. That's pretty sweet.

oxybe
2010-01-17, 11:18 AM
a few things to note: bears & crocs are GREAT at keeping some enemies locked down with grapple checks. summon a handful of bears before combat and you've got yourself a few decent damage soakers and mobile terrain control.

elementals are also great as all of them make VERY good scouts (as long as you can speak their language), but the Earth & Air ones stand out, IMO. water dungeons aren't common enough to make the Water Elemental a staple, but the earth elemental can set of traps from a safe position and earthglide with only it's "head" sticking out of the ground and scout. the air elemental is highly mobile & can zip around for quick recon.

fire elementals are ok, but being made of fire they tend to show up in the darkness but are great at causing a disturbance. to quote the musical genius of StrongBad:
"Burninating the countryside,
Burninating the peasants,
Burninating all the peoples,
And their thatched-roof COTTAGES!"

a lot of them have nice SLA's you can take advantage of, you just need to research the critters you have summon access to.

absolute worst case scenario: you give the melee guy a flanking buddy or another damage soaker.

Aldizog
2010-01-17, 11:35 AM
The SLAs that some of them have mean it's a way for a sorc to add some versatility. Minor, but it's something.

Their offensive power is greatly increased by having a bard in the party; a +3 bonus to hit means a lot more if it's shifting odds of hitting from 10% to 25% rather than 75% to 90%.

Longcat
2010-01-17, 12:18 PM
You can't persist Summon Monster anyway, since it has a variable range.

Combine it with Ocular spell, and you can.

pew pew *shoots Fiendish Dire Wolves out of eyes*

Bayar
2010-01-17, 01:47 PM
Combine it with Ocular spell, and you can.

pew pew *shoots Fiendish Dire Wolves out of eyes*

Oh god why am I laughing so hard ?

Vizzerdrix
2010-01-17, 02:05 PM
Wizards and sorcerers don't have much reason to use it, as the whole point of being an arcane caster is to use the spells which the cleric DOESN'T get. And druids have the far superior Summon Nature's Ally.


I agree that a sorc won't, but I've found summons to be a good way to get a buff (Flanking for the sneaky sneaks), damage (over several rounds) and battlefield control (AoOs, blocking the enemy) all out of one spell and leaves more spell slots open for other things.

Jergmo
2010-01-17, 02:30 PM
Combine it with Ocular spell, and you can.

pew pew *shoots Fiendish Dire Wolves out of eyes*

I am rolling on the floor laughing while still managing to type!

Deth Muncher
2010-01-17, 02:40 PM
Combine it with Ocular spell, and you can.

pew pew *shoots Fiendish Dire Wolves out of eyes*

I woffled when I saw this.

What's woffling? Well, it's like rolling on the floor laughing, but decidedly more tasty and with the option of maple or blueberry syrup.

Vizzerdrix
2010-01-17, 02:43 PM
I woffled when I saw this.

What's woffling? Well, it's like rolling on the floor laughing, but decidedly more tasty and with the option of maple or blueberry syrup.

Now you talking REAL maple syrup, or that corn syrup knock off crap most people use?

Sinfire Titan
2010-01-17, 02:51 PM
SM9 isn't as good as Gate, but if the DM doesn't allow Gate for some reason you can always summon a Hezzrou with SM9 and get a Debuffer and free Chaos Hammer every round (for the Mooks).

Oslecamo
2010-01-17, 02:56 PM
Yeah, standard action and minute/level would make it much more worthwhile. At least then, it'd always last through an entire combat...possibly two if they're quite close together or it's extended.

Because what casters need is even more cheap effecient minions.

Like many people pointed here, what SM lacks on raw power, it more than makes up with versatility. Sure, SNA has bigger beefier monsters, but SM offers a lot more versatility, and if nothing else they make great chump blockers. Bralani for example buffs your party with blur, heals up some wounds and then still casts some wind walls, just for a 6th level spell slot.

So no, making it a standard action minute/level would just make them auto-picks for every damn non-sorcerer caster out there.

Sinfire Titan:Notice that gate costs 1000 exp to bring an ally, whereas summon monster IX doesn't.

Sinfire Titan
2010-01-17, 03:01 PM
Sinfire Titan:Notice that gate costs 1000 exp to bring an ally, whereas summon monster IX doesn't.

Gate gives you multiple allies who's CR is within your CL (max 25) or a single ally up to double your CL who is automatically under your control for 1 round/CL. The 1000 XP cost? You earn that back almost immediately. Sure, you don't cast it multiple times ina single fight, but you only need to cast it once and then dominate the summoned creature to get your money's worth.

Deth Muncher
2010-01-17, 03:06 PM
Now you talking REAL maple syrup, or that corn syrup knock off crap most people use?

Psh, please. No high fructose cornsyrup for me thanks. I'm talking about straight out of the tree, Northern US Maple syrup. While it may not be quite as good as from the Great White North, it's damn close.

Plus, using imitation maple syrup for woffling...well, that's just blasphemy all around.

Deth Muncher
2010-01-17, 03:09 PM
Because what casters need is even more cheap effecient minions.

Like many people pointed here, what SM lacks on raw power, it more than makes up with versatility. Sure, SNA has bigger beefier monsters, but SM offers a lot more versatility, and if nothing else they make great chump blockers. Bralani for example buffs your party with blur, heals up some wounds and then still casts some wind walls, just for a 6th level spell slot.

So no, making it a standard action minute/level would just make them auto-picks for every damn non-sorcerer caster out there.

Sinfire Titan:Notice that gate costs 1000 exp to bring an ally, whereas summon monster IX doesn't.

And thus, it was realized that Summon Monster specialists are actually players with White Weenie decks. :P

Fortuna
2010-01-17, 03:20 PM
Hmm. I am currently playing a Spontaneous Cleric (Cloistered Cleric if you must know). Would it be worth it to take any of those spells at all?

Sinfire Titan
2010-01-17, 03:22 PM
You mean Gate gives you that.

Whoops... Editing.

Primehunter74
2010-01-17, 03:40 PM
I, playing a cleric usually, find this spell very useful. Sure it's casting time is a bit long, but being able to bring an ally into the fight for a short amount of time can turn a battle. At first level, it's duration sucks, I admit. Giving up a round of my time to summon this puny little thing for a round? No Way! But as you get higher level the duration improves.

It can also be useful for those less armored clerics or wizards. You see that hobgobllin fighter running toward you? No I dont, because my summoned creature is in the way, let me move to a better position at hit him with a fireball (or fire with your crossbow, be you a cleric.)

It has it's ups and downs, but I think that it can make a battle fun if used right.

PhoenixRivers
2010-01-17, 04:05 PM
Please note:

Most combats last no more than 5 rounds.

Thus, beyond level 5, in all likelihood, your summon has a duration of "1 combat", typically.

Next:

Summon Monster 6: Bralani. Entire party gets Blur. Alternately? A minimum of 11 Wind Walls. Pick and mix.

Summon Monster 7: Bone Devil. Party gets flight, enough Walls of Ice to choke a donkey, Dimensional Anchor, and Major Image illusions.

As you can see... these spells provide amazing utility, and efficiency in exchanging 1 high level slot for many, many lower level ones that are still useful.

Heck, Use a SM 9 for 1d4+1 Bone devils. Now you're making 2-5 Walls a round, in addition to your actions. If they die? Those are attacks that weren't aimed at you.

ericgrau
2010-01-17, 04:30 PM
As you said, fights tend to last 5 rounds. So by the time the bralini blurs the whole party, the fight is over. Blur isn't that great of a spell either when you could be nuking or screwing multiple enemies. And so on for the rest.

Summon monsters tend to have a CR equal to about half your character level. They can be buffed a little and you can grab augment summoning and so on, but such things only go so far. They are good when you have some free time before combat begins since then the casting time is almost free. They are also good for various utility uses like expendable bodies, flankers and other things, but in terms of raw combat power none of their SLAs are that incredible. It's situational.

taltamir
2010-01-17, 04:48 PM
summon a celestial monkey, order it to open a trapped container :)
they should have called it "disarm trap" instead of summon monster...

Also some monsters cast as a cleric / wizard / sorcerer / etc... those are great for cooperative magic abuse. :)
other then that, the spells just suck hardcore.

FMArthur
2010-01-17, 04:49 PM
On the other hand, Huge fiendish monstrous centipedes are pretty amazing when you get them. At level five it really does seem like an impressive an enormous creature. SMIII in general is amazing at its level. Even when your summons become weaker than a fighter of your level... don't ever forget that there is still a wizard behind your monsters. :smallyuk:

ShippoWildheart
2010-01-17, 04:55 PM
Combine it with Ocular spell, and you can.

pew pew *shoots Fiendish Dire Wolves out of eyes*

You have won the Funny Award of the day.

Fitz10019
2010-01-17, 05:21 PM
Rapid Spell turns a full-round casting into a standard action, for metamagic price of 1.

Summoning does not break normal invisibility, so you can scoot around a battlefield summoning and re-summoning as needed.

PhoenixRivers
2010-01-17, 05:36 PM
As you said, fights tend to last 5 rounds. So by the time the bralini blurs the whole party, the fight is over. Blur isn't that great of a spell either when you could be nuking or screwing multiple enemies. And so on for the rest.

Summon monsters tend to have a CR equal to about half your character level. They can be buffed a little and you can grab augment summoning and so on, but such things only go so far. They are good when you have some free time before combat begins since then the casting time is almost free. They are also good for various utility uses like expendable bodies, flankers and other things, but in terms of raw combat power none of their SLAs are that incredible. It's situational.

Wind Wall, however, is solid. And the bralani can essentially ready actions to counter archery.

Ice Wall? Also Solid. Blocks LOS/LOE for one, so can fizzle spells, attacks, charges, etc. Barricade passages, hold doors shut, funnel enemies, etc.

Many of these spells are limited primarily by your creativity. If you're not finding good uses for such a flexible spell, perhaps it might help if you think about it from another angle.

A Higher level spell that produces a plethora of lower level effects that you can choose when you cast, rather than when you prepare?

That's good.

Thrice Dead Cat
2010-01-17, 05:39 PM
On the other hand, Huge fiendish monstrous centipedes are pretty amazing when you get them. At level five it really does seem like an impressive an enormous creature. SMIII in general is amazing at its level. Even when your summons become weaker than a fighter of your level... don't ever forget that there is still a wizard behind your monsters. :smallyuk:

The centipedes are pretty beefy when ever they appear. They can get even better, too, assuming you work with your DM to figure out what they're feats are. The generics in the SRD lack them, due to the base creatures being vermin, but the colossal centipedes technically have epic feats with which to play.

Although, to be fair, for a 7th level slot, I'd probably end up using it to get some free SLAs.

Oslecamo
2010-01-17, 06:04 PM
Summoning does not break normal invisibility, so you can scoot around a battlefield summoning and re-summoning as needed.

Oh, that's another nice combo at low-medium levels, when you can afford SM and invisibility but cannot afford improved invisibility!

Thrice Dead Cat:the colossus are in the epic handbook and they don't get epic feats, so no, vermins with lots of HD don't get epic feats as well since they lack an int score.

Gnorman
2010-01-17, 06:32 PM
Are you kidding me?

The Summon Monster line is practically the most versatile spell series in the entire game!

How about a demon with four attacks per round and DR, putting the Celestial Bison and Fiendish Ape to shame at SM III? My friends, let me introduce you to the Nashrou, summonable at level 5.

How about four 1d6+8 tentacles and two 1d6+5 claw attacks on a summon with Blindsense, Rend, and a climb speed? Well, look no further than the Voor yugoloth, summonable at level 7.

How about one quickened fireball per round for three rounds, followed by the opportunity to do 2d4 Intelligence drain with a touch attack? Check out the Amnizu, summonable at level 11.

How about doubling all that with a Malconvoker?

And that's not even beginning to skim the surface of the versatility involved in the line - those three picks are just the straight-up powergaming summoner's damage dealers. As long as you remember the eternal adage "KNOW THY SUMMONS" your experience and efficacy are only limited by your creativity and quick thinking.

Really, Summon Monster may not quite compare with Mailmen, Cindys, Incantawhatevers, Cheesewrought Loredrakes, CoDzilla, Planar Shepherds, Thrallherd abuse, or overclocked Blastificers but it's a powerful and fun archetype in its own right. Just beware, it takes up a lot of time and effort to keep track of all those minions.

PhoenixRivers
2010-01-17, 06:48 PM
Oh, that's another nice combo at low-medium levels, when you can afford SM and invisibility but cannot afford improved invisibility!

Thrice Dead Cat:the colossus are in the epic handbook and they don't get epic feats, so no, vermins with lots of HD don't get epic feats as well since they lack an int score.

Imp invisibility suffers from a very short duration, and not being available in ring form.

Clerics with Ring of Invis. Or wizards. Either way, it's no spell slots needed for 24/7 invis. Which means you're not wasting round 1 casting invis/another defense spell. Instead, you're casting something that doesn't break it.

ken-do-nim
2010-01-17, 06:59 PM
My sorcerer has gotten lots of mileage out of the summon monster line. The key is that the DM has to use the PHBII retraining rules so you don't keep an older summon monster in your list.

One thing to note on buffing: I rule that a summoned monster brought into existence while an allied bard is already inspiring courage immediately gets the bonus, so that's a nice synergy there. In fact, the only really good use for a lillend is to have her buff your next summons.

But yes, my favorite combo is prismatic wall, then summon elementals to bull rush your foes into it.

Tyndmyr
2010-01-17, 07:51 PM
Are you kidding me?

The Summon Monster line is practically the most versatile spell series in the entire game!

How about a demon with four attacks per round and DR, putting the Celestial Bison and Fiendish Ape to shame at SM III? My friends, let me introduce you to the Nashrou, summonable at level 5.

I'll grant you that at SM 3, you have good options.


How avout four 1d6+8 tentacles and two 1d6+5 claw attacks on a summon with Blindsense, Rend, and a climb speed? Well, look no further than the Voor yugoloth, summonable at level 7.

How do I get that? It's not in the text of SM 4.


How about one quickened fireball per round for three rounds, followed by the opportunity to do 2d4 Intelligence drain with a touch attack? Check out the Amnizu, summonable at level 11.

Also missing from the SRD. How do I track down summonables not listed there or in the spell text in phb?

Though it's useful, a fireball isn't actually huge at level 11. I might consider a powerful first turn spell preferable to more meh spells later in the fight.


How about doubling all that with a Malconvoker?


IMO, the malconvoker is overrated... It's not actually bad, but it's not as amazing as it's made out to be. The main issue? It immediately loses a caster level.

It provides nothing special in terms of saves, hit dice, bab. It's just a straight trade of a caster level and 10 Prc levels for abilities. Some of those abilities, like Skill Focus: Bluff, are relatively minor. Pretty much all of the actual bonuses apply only to evil creatures. Not actually bad bonuses, but it puts you in a rather niche area.

I mean, a simple Protection from Evil spell mostly negates your entire prestige class.

PhoenixRivers
2010-01-17, 08:03 PM
IMO, the malconvoker is overrated... It's not actually bad, but it's not as amazing as it's made out to be. The main issue? It immediately loses a caster level.

It provides nothing special in terms of saves, hit dice, bab. It's just a straight trade of a caster level and 10 Prc levels for abilities. Some of those abilities, like Skill Focus: Bluff, are relatively minor. Pretty much all of the actual bonuses apply only to evil creatures. Not actually bad bonuses, but it puts you in a rather niche area.

I mean, a simple Protection from Evil spell mostly negates your entire prestige class.

Many, many summons have dispel magic or its greater variant. A lot of those are evil. That's the advantage of summoning what essentially amounts to be casters.

As for the others? Some extra texts (outside of core) expand the list on Summon monster spells. Look in the demon/devil guides, at the monster entries. They say if they can.

It's out of the way, but summoner builds, like any other build, reward those that research.

Thrice Dead Cat
2010-01-17, 08:08 PM
Oh, that's another nice combo at low-medium levels, when you can afford SM and invisibility but cannot afford improved invisibility!

Thrice Dead Cat:the colossus are in the epic handbook and they don't get epic feats, so no, vermins with lots of HD don't get epic feats as well since they lack an int score.

Right: normal centipedes are vermin: fiendish buggers ain't. The template gives them an Int score, thus feats.

Runestar
2010-01-17, 09:41 PM
Depending on the nature of the encounter, you can summon monsters and have them buff you prior to combat. For example, having lantern archons aid the whole party.

BTW, what exactly happens to the spells they cast when they are unsummoned? I have always played it as them expiring (so players can't abuse continual light), but I have always been interested in a RAW answer.

Say, I have a bralani cast blur on the entire party. Then its duration runs out. Do the blur spells end immediately, or only at the end of their duration?

Eldariel
2010-01-17, 09:44 PM
Spiders are really nice low-level summons. They can Web with the best of them. Of course, if you have to spend 1 round casting summons (that is, don't have Rapid Summoning/Rapid Spell), they become far more situational. A Focused Specialist Conjurer with Rapid Summoning could get by with only Summon Monsters on all levels rather well though.

Dimers
2010-01-17, 09:48 PM
Now you talking REAL maple syrup, or that corn syrup knock off crap most people use?

I grew up on the fake stuff, and now I actually prefer the taste over actual, grade-A maple syrup.

Generally, special innate abilities like movement modes (burrowing!), senses (can smell the invisible stalker, thankyouverymuch) and SLAs make a Summon Monster an inherently versatile spell. If you want to make it more so, ask your DM if you can expand the list. As much as I love versatility, though, I rarely prepare a Summon Monster; other spells are just cooler* ... and SM requires extra bookkeeping, for duration, abilities expended, who's taken their turn, hit points remaining, et frickin' cetera.

* though not as cool as shooting dire wolves out your eyes, I'll give ya that

PhoenixRivers
2010-01-17, 09:54 PM
Depending on the nature of the encounter, you can summon monsters and have them buff you prior to combat. For example, having lantern archons aid the whole party.

BTW, what exactly happens to the spells they cast when they are unsummoned? I have always played it as them expiring (so players can't abuse continual light), but I have always been interested in a RAW answer.

Say, I have a bralani cast blur on the entire party. Then its duration runs out. Do the blur spells end immediately, or only at the end of their duration?


Summoning

A summoning spell instantly brings a creature or object to a place you designate. When the spell ends or is dispelled, a summoned creature is instantly sent back to where it came from, but a summoned object is not sent back unless the spell description specifically indicates this. A summoned creature also goes away if it is killed or if its hit points drop to 0 or lower. It is not really dead. It takes 24 hours for the creature to reform, during which time it can’t be summoned again.

When the spell that summoned a creature ends and the creature disappears, all the spells it has cast expire. A summoned creature cannot use any innate summoning abilities it may have, and it refuses to cast any spells that would cost it XP, or to use any spell-like abilities that would cost XP if they were spells.
That should answer your question.

Kantolin
2010-01-17, 10:04 PM
One thing I've noticed is, the less optimized your group (and thus the opponents), the more potent summons get.

If a summon can soak one attack sequence from a monster, that's relatively worthwhile in my book in those cases - particularly if you can get it to a standard instead of a full round action, but hey. The fact that it doesn't break invisibility is also helpful - means you can buff your party, build up walls, and summon more essentially walls.

Another fun option is to spend a spell level on imbue summoning. Summoning (say) 1d4+1 roving bubbles of magic circle is useful against a vampire or the like, and there are other potent options there. That does require spending some resources on it, though.

So overall, the more optimized the group, the less useful summon monster gets, but it's decent enough for what it does.

Runestar
2010-01-17, 10:14 PM
How did I ever miss that line in all my years of playing dnd? :smallsigh:

Cyrion
2010-01-17, 11:21 PM
I'm surprised that nobody's pointed to Treantmonk's thread (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872758/Mastering_the_Malconvoker) on the malconvoker. It's a good guide on how to get a lot of mileage out of your summons and which summons are worthwhile.

Gnorman
2010-01-18, 05:55 AM
I'm surprised that nobody's pointed to Treantmonk's thread (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872758/Mastering_the_Malconvoker) on the malconvoker. It's a good guide on how to get a lot of mileage out of your summons and which summons are worthwhile.

So is this (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5573.0).

Dr.Epic
2010-01-18, 06:15 AM
I think they work well with rogues that need to flank someone. Just cast the spell behind the guy the rogue is fighting.

Kaiyanwang
2010-01-18, 06:25 AM
Rapid Spell turns a full-round casting into a standard action, for metamagic price of 1.

Summoning does not break normal invisibility, so you can scoot around a battlefield summoning and re-summoning as needed.

You couldn't even need that. Take a look in UA, there is a suggested houserule regarding scaling the casting time of the Summon line from 1 round to a full round action.

Not uber but useful and RAW (a suggested houserule from a designer in an official manual, after all).

Killer Angel
2010-01-18, 06:25 AM
I think they work well with rogues that need to flank someone. Just cast the spell behind the guy the rogue is fighting.

Yep. Any monster gives flanking, even if is weak.
And any monster can hamper enemies' movement (at least for a round).
Most monster are good traps finder, and can be also used as low-price scouts if you fear an ambush in a certain point.
Summon is not very strong, but is useful.

PhoenixRivers
2010-01-18, 06:26 AM
I think they work well with rogues that need to flank someone. Just cast the spell behind the guy the rogue is fighting.

Grease typically handles that just as well.

Gnorman
2010-01-18, 06:36 AM
Strength doesn't matter here, folks (okay, it kind of does). What does matter is versatility - a Summon Monster spell can potentially bring all kinds of tactics and SLAs into play, and you don't have to choose which one until you actually cast it. Pound for pound, it brings a caster more potential, variety, and options than most other spells. There's almost always something useful a summon can do. It's all about knowing which summon is right for the situation.

Runestar
2010-01-18, 06:48 AM
Which also requires a great deal of system mastery, since this involves you knowing the best monster to summon under any given circumstance in a heartbeat. Better take the time to practice before your game - no one appreciates you taking your own sweet time to ponder over your laundry list of summons.

Still, having the solution to any problem available to you as a standard action does have its appeal...:smallcool:

Dr.Epic
2010-01-18, 06:51 AM
Grease typically handles that just as well.

Grease can't attack and harm an enemy.

Gnorman
2010-01-18, 06:56 AM
Grease can't attack and harm an enemy.

But it does leave your foe flat-footed, which lets the rogue sneak attack them - I believe that was PhoenixRivers' point.

PhoenixRivers
2010-01-18, 07:32 AM
But it does leave your foe flat-footed, which lets the rogue sneak attack them - I believe that was PhoenixRivers' point.

Exactly. Often, denying dex is better than the +2 from flanking.

Dr.Epic
2010-01-18, 07:36 AM
Exactly. Often, denying dex is better than the +2 from flanking.

Granted, but my method bites (or claws or gores or what-natural-attacks) back so I like it more.

PhoenixRivers
2010-01-18, 07:38 AM
Granted, but my method bites (or claws or gores or what-natural-attacks) back so I like it more.

It's also more vulnerable to getting removed.

If you really want a offensive variant, try Black Tentacles. Grappled foes lose dex, and it grapples and damages foes.

Dr.Epic
2010-01-18, 07:46 AM
It's also more vulnerable to getting removed.

If you really want a offensive variant, try Black Tentacles. Grappled foes lose dex, and it grapples and damages foes.

What level spell is that? It may have the disadvantage in that summon monster is for any level and thus can be cast by any anyone (even first level wizards/sorcerers) who has access to it and that they can probably cast it more times per day.

Killer Angel
2010-01-18, 07:50 AM
Phoenix, I agree that grease is a great spell, but summon monster gives variety: with grease you cannot find traps.
A flat footed enemy is better than a flanked one, but flanking is not bad either... and there's no save. :smallwink:
That said, I don't think we're discussing summon Vs grease, but the utility of Summon monster.

Runestar
2010-01-18, 08:02 AM
It's also more vulnerable to getting removed.

If you really want a offensive variant, try Black Tentacles. Grappled foes lose dex, and it grapples and damages foes.

Excluding the rogue from the AoE may be tricky though.

Though every hit the summon soaks up is one attack not aimed at another PC (sorta like indirect healing/damage prevention). So it is not necessarily a bad thing, especially if this helps take some heat off the rogue (because he will be rooted in place after a full attack).

Dr.Epic
2010-01-18, 08:07 AM
Though every hit the summon soaks up is one attack not aimed at another PC (sorta like indirect healing/damage prevention). So it is not necessarily a bad thing, especially if this helps take some heat off the rogue (because he will be rooted in place after a full attack).

True and it could also stall an enemy as you flee though there are dozens of spells that can provide a much better escape option.

Runestar
2010-01-18, 08:21 AM
True and it could also stall an enemy as you flee though there are dozens of spells that can provide a much better escape option.

I don't deny that given any 1 situation, there will likely be a specific spell which is better at accomplishing a particular task compared to a creature brought in by the summon monster spell.

However, the wizard likely will not have these individual spells prepared/available all at the same time, and even if he somehow manages this, he will probably have only 1 casting of each. So you run into problems of either not having enough copies of a critical spell, or stuck with useless spells which are simply not applicable to that current situation.

Conversely, a wizard who prepares mostly summon monster spells (or heck, a sorc), will likely be able to bring in an answer to just about anything the DM throws at the party, simply by summoning whichever creature is best suited to tackling that particular scenario. You want a flanker, grappler, tripper, debuffer, magekiller, buffer, bull-rusher, tank, battlefield-controller or whatever, summon monster provides that.

Can you name me any one spell which can perform all of the above?

It is almost like being able to spontaneously cast any silver bullet spell in the game! :smallsmile:

Sinfire Titan
2010-01-18, 09:11 AM
What level spell is that? It may have the disadvantage in that summon monster is for any level and thus can be cast by any anyone (even first level wizards/sorcerers) who has access to it and that they can probably cast it more times per day.

Black Tentacles is a 4th level spell. It's in the PHB, under Evard's. It's widely regarded as one of the best 4th level Conjuration spells in the Core 3.

Runestar
2010-01-18, 09:23 AM
It's widely regarded as one of the best 4th level Conjuration spells in the game.

Fixed. :smallamused:

PhoenixRivers
2010-01-18, 09:24 AM
True and it could also stall an enemy as you flee though there are dozens of spells that can provide a much better escape option.

And it could also be totally ignored, being ineffectual at stopping the enemy. In this instance, you've given up the opportunity to make a double move/run... for the chance that the enemy will deal with an obviously inferior enemy.

FMArthur
2010-01-18, 11:58 AM
Summons are often very good at grappling, particularly when you call several creatures at once. Grappling solves your rogue problems and your safety problems. Remember that Evard's Black Tentacles can affect your rogue buddy, too; sometimes a huge area-of-effect disable is not what the situation calls for.

PhoenixRivers
2010-01-18, 12:03 PM
Summons are often very good at grappling, particularly when you call several creatures at once. Grappling solves your rogue problems and your safety problems. Remember that Evard's Black Tentacles can affect your rogue buddy, too; sometimes a huge area-of-effect disable is not what the situation calls for.

Summons are rarely as good at grappling as the things you face.

Summons have their uses. They're action multipliers, and that's very good.

But don't go saying they are what they're not.

Ravens_cry
2010-01-18, 12:13 PM
It's also more vulnerable to getting removed.

If you really want a offensive variant, try Black Tentacles. Grappled foes lose dex, and it grapples and damages foes.
Don't forget the companion spell, Armour to Japanese Schoolgirl Outfit.:smallamused:

Zaydos
2010-01-18, 12:41 PM
If I'm playing a conjurer who isn't doing anything with his familiar I'd use Summon Monster. Partially because me and my friends don't like Abrupt Jaunt as just kind of too easily broken and partially because it goes from "I'm making a target out of myself" to "Usable at all levels" with the ACF.

The creatures can give you flankers, useful combatants (bone devils are still useful when you first get them), SLAs, and a lot of versatility. Too bad summoned demons lose their teleport powers.

If you are a conjurer and can't take Abrupt Jaunt then dabbling in summoning would be a good idea. If you want to focus on it you will probably end up as a good aligned demon summoner who summons demons better than evil demon summoners (my group finds this silly and forces them to be evil demon summoners) take the Rabid Summoning variant and trade scribe scroll for augment summoning cause you can.

Gnorman
2010-01-18, 12:44 PM
Conversely, a wizard who prepares mostly summon monster spells (or heck, a sorc), will likely be able to bring in an answer to just about anything the DM throws at the party, simply by summoning whichever creature is best suited to tackling that particular scenario. You want a flanker, grappler, tripper, debuffer, magekiller, buffer, bull-rusher, tank, battlefield-controller or whatever, summon monster provides that.

Can you name me any one spell which can perform all of the above?

Shadow Conjuration, Greater Shadow Conjuration or Shades. Look, I found three!

Shalist
2010-01-18, 02:59 PM
Combine it with Ocular spell, and you can.

pew pew *shoots Fiendish Dire Wolves out of eyes*

I imagine that'd look something like this...
http://www.lukesurl.com/comics/2009-01-28-wolves.gif (http://www.lukesurl.com/archives/553)

Runestar
2010-01-18, 10:49 PM
Shadow Conjuration, Greater Shadow Conjuration or Shades. Look, I found three!

Now demonstrate how the spells they mimic go towards fulfilling all the purposes I listed earlier. :smallamused:

Tyndmyr
2010-01-19, 08:20 AM
Well, the whole versatility thing...isn't that why we carry scrolls? Why bother with a "sorta good" option for everything when you have scribe scroll anyhow, and a heward's handy haversack?

JohnnyCancer
2010-01-19, 04:17 PM
Earlier last year my Conjurer discretely summoned a small water elemental to soak the white robes of a bunch of vestal virgins. We used the ensuing chaos to break into the temple vault to get what we were after without having to resort to violence.

Thrice Dead Cat
2010-01-19, 06:11 PM
Earlier last year my Conjurer discretely summoned a small water elemental to soak the white robes of a bunch of vestal virgins. We used the ensuing chaos to break into the temple vault to get what we were after without having to resort to violence.

"And this year's Wet T-shirt Contest of the Inner Planes is hosted by Conjuration! Conjuration! Not just for booty calls anymore!"