Non-Standard Offensive Spells

[subject42]

I've been leafing through the SRD and just noticed that the spell Plane Shift can be used on an unwilling target. That's a pretty nice save or die.

Are there any other spells that are normally used for buffing or utility that can be used to good effect offensively? Enlarge person springs to mind against ranged attackers.

[Heliomance]

Hold Portal. The level 1 Instakill.

[Temotei]

Create water?

Conjure up two gallons at first level, using it to find invisible enemies before you're supposed to (see invisibility, true seeing, glitterdust).

Or you could drown someone with it if you trap them somewhere.

[Eloel]

Shrink Item.
Ouch.

Reduce Person on a Halfling Rogue. Watch him cry because he can't attack.

[AustontheGreat1]

Hold Portal. The level 1 Instakill.

care to elaborate?

[Crow]

Shatter can be used to destroy an opponent's armor or weapon.

[subject42]

Shatter can be used to destroy an opponent's armor or weapon.

Is that non-standard? We get hit with that in low-level games all the time. Maybe I just have a DM that possesses the gleeful maliciousness of young children and cats.

[The Dark Fiddler]

Reduce Person on a Halfling Rogue. Watch him cry because he can't attack.

But he can still attack... and now has better bonuses to attack rolls and to AC.

Granted, he has to be in the square now, unless being a ranged rogue, but Tumble class skill + natural Dex bonus.

also, inb4locatecitybomb

[lsfreak]

But he can still attack... and now has better bonuses to attack rolls and to AC.

Granted, he has to be in the square now, unless being a ranged rogue, but Tumble class skill + natural Dex bonus.

The problem is that you have to be able to reach something vital in order to sneak attack: shrink the rogue down to Tiny and he can't reach the vitals on a human-sized opponent. It's one of the more-forgotten rules that ends up screwing rogues at higher levels, where monsters tend to get bigger and bigger.

[sonofzeal]

Dream Travel (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/dreamTravel.htm) is a nasty one for Elocators. Not the most effective, but just plain mean.

Rage (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/rage.htm), on spellcasters.

Fabricate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/fabricate.htm) can be used offensively, if you're clever enough and stick to 10' cubes.

[The Dark Fiddler]

The problem is that you have to be able to reach something vital in order to sneak attack: shrink the rogue down to Tiny and he can't reach the vitals on a human-sized opponent. It's one of the more-forgotten rules that ends up screwing rogues at higher levels, where monsters tend to get bigger and bigger.

I dunno, Tiny's still 1-2 feet tall. Add in another half a foot (estimate) for reach + weapon, and you'll probably be able to reach the groin/stomach on a shorter opponent. Jump if you still can't. (And if you still can't, I'm sure the back of the knee cap is pretty painful.)

[Zaq]

In the Test of Spite, I've noticed Helping Hand be used to find enemies whose locations are otherwise unknown. It's not an especially new trick and I certainly didn't think of it, but it's not something you see every day.

[Tyndmyr]

Locate Object can be used to find people as well. =)

Shrink Item is great...oooh, nice breastplate there. *blam* Too bad about your chest, though.

[Lapak]

Rage (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/rage.htm), on spellcastersThat specifies willing targets, though.

[tyckspoon]

I dunno, Tiny's still 1-2 feet tall. Add in another half a foot (estimate) for reach + weapon, and you'll probably be able to reach the groin/stomach on a shorter opponent. Jump if you still can't. (And if you still can't, I'm sure the back of the knee cap is pretty painful.)

The impact of that rule has an unpleasant reliance on DM interpretation (note: I'm not against DM interpretation. I don't think it should be a fundamental part of a class's core combat compentency.) Does 'vitals' mean just the core organs? Do you have to be able to shank something in the kidney/spleen/heart/lungs to score a Sneak Attack? Or does slicing an Achille's tendon or cutting open the wrist count? In the first case, Small or smaller rogues are severely disadvantaged when dealing with Large or large enemies. In the second case, you can Sneak Attack pretty much anything you can reach. I go with the second. Sneak Attack has enough crap to deal with without yet another horribly common "no, you can't do that" condition.

[Coidzor]

The impact of that rule has an unpleasant reliance on DM interpretation (note: I'm not against DM interpretation. I don't think it should be a fundamental part of a class's core combat compentency.) Does 'vitals' mean just the core organs? Do you have to be able to shank something in the kidney/spleen/heart/lungs to score a Sneak Attack? Or does slicing an Achille's tendon or cutting open the wrist count? In the first case, Small or smaller rogues are severely disadvantaged when dealing with Large or large enemies. In the second case, you can Sneak Attack pretty much anything you can reach. I go with the second. Sneak Attack has enough crap to deal with without yet another horribly common "no, you can't do that" condition.

After all, where's it say that one has to be a certain minimum or maximum size in order to sneak attack another size?

[Longcat]

Reverse Gravity on an open plane is pretty deadly against non-flying opponents.
Shadow Walk can be used to abandon people on the Shadow plane.

[lsfreak]

After all, where's it say that one has to be a certain minimum or maximum size in order to sneak attack another size?

The problem is this line in the description of sneak attack:

The rogue must be able to see the target well enough to pick out a vital spot and must be able to reach such a spot.

EDIT: And yes, it's very DM-interpretation-dependent. I would probably rule in favor of the rogue in the Tiny-versus-Human argument, but it quickly becomes problematic.

[Wind d8/d12]

Hold Portal. The level 1 Instakill.
Maybe like "Hold Face Portal" and make an enemy suffocate? Uhm, or close up other orifices so that they eventually die of impaction. I don't like where this is going/went....

Shrink item on a necklace or enlarge a piercing?

[The Dark Fiddler]

The problem is this line in the description of sneak attack:

"I can reach his foot, can't I? I'm sure there's a vein or a muscle or something there that's 'vital'!" (My point being "vital" isn't well enough defined. I could see it being ruled that as long as you can hit someone, you can hit a vital spot.)

And besides, this is all a bit unrelated to the original Shrink the Halfling Rogue suggestion, because he'll still reach the groin, most likely. I'd like to see the DM that doesn't rule the groin as counting for a Sneak Attack vital spot. :smalltongue:

[Vizzerdrix]

The problem is this line in the description of sneak attack:

Back of the knee. Heck, a sneak attack there should cause insta-prone.

[pres_man]

The problem is this line in the description of sneak attack:


EDIT: And yes, it's very DM-interpretation-dependent. I would probably rule in favor of the rogue in the Tiny-versus-Human argument, but it quickly becomes problematic.

Achilles tendon?

[Tyrmatt]

Hold Portal. The level 1 Instakill.

I think I got the point of this one. Owch :/ It also makes me think of numerous malicious tortures you can inflict on people with it.

To try to elaborate for others: Ever shut your finger/hand in a car door? Hurts like hell doesn't it?

[FMArthur]

Actually, I believe there is a feat somewhere to attack someone in that particular vital area... implying you cannot normally do it otherwise. :smallamused:

(I used to run into this issue all the time and didn't know how to handle it as a rookie-DM; after all, what happens when someone does a leap attack without Leap Attack?)

[penbed400]

Actually, I believe there is a feat somewhere to attack someone in that particular vital area... implying you cannot normally do it otherwise. :smallamused:

(I used to run into this issue all the time and didn't know how to handle it as a rookie-DM; after all, what happens when someone does a leap attack without Leap Attack?)

They take a -4 penalty to attack, the monster gets an AoO and there is no benefit other than that you looked cool doing it, maybe if you want you can get into a grapple? That's how I would handle it, I mean it would look cool if you suddenly dropped your weapon and tried to punch the monster in the face without Improved Unarmed Attack but...consequences.

[lsfreak]

They take a -4 penalty to attack, the monster gets an AoO and there is no benefit other than that you looked cool doing it, maybe if you want you can get into a grapple? That's how I would handle it, I mean it would look cool if you suddenly dropped your weapon and tried to punch the monster in the face without Improved Unarmed Attack but...consequences.

Actually, from higher ground you get a +1 to your attack. This includes jumping. No other rule-written benefits, though.

EDIT: And yes, there exists specific feats to attack Achilles' tendon areas. And can you still attack such a place on Gargantuan dragon? How about an aberration that still has discernible anatomy, but no legs to really speak of? Animals with enough legs that one leg out doesn't really hurt it?

[Foryn Gilnith]

If you make a Leap Attack without the feat, you just get to ignore some difficult terrain when you charge. Anyone can jump during a charge; only Leap Attackers get damages bonuses. I don't think you can time the jump in such a way that you get the +1 higher ground bonus, unless you have Spring Attack.

[Tyndmyr]

Inner legs/thighs typically have arteries that are extremely lethal if cut/ruptured.

I'd say that rogues would have to be very small indeed to be entirely unable to sneak attack something.

[Vizzerdrix]

Inner legs/thighs typically have arteries that are extremely lethal if cut/ruptured.

I'd say that rogues would have to be very small indeed to be entirely unable to sneak attack something.

The Femurals, I think. about as thick as your thumb and up near the groin.

[Siosilvar]

Is that non-standard? We get hit with that in low-level games all the time. Maybe I just have a DM that possesses the gleeful maliciousness of young children and cats.

Using it as an area-effect attack is. Hint: Metal has a crystalline structure, therefore technically a crystal.

Important parts:
Used as an area attack, shatter destroys nonmagical objects of crystal, glass, ceramic, or porcelain. All such objects within a 5-foot radius of the point of origin are smashed into dozens of pieces by the spell. Objects weighing more than 1 pound per your level are not affected, but all other objects of the appropriate composition are shattered.

Alternatively, you can target shatter against a single solid object, regardless of composition, weighing up to 10 pounds per caster level.
Most people would use the second paragraph against metal items.

[Thrawn183]

Yeah, but it's pretty tough to argue that the halfling rogue can actually reach something vital on the say... colossal monstrous scorpion (CR 12) without flight.

[Wind d8/d12]

Pretty interesting strategy I'd guess.
Ok, how about Silent Image of a rope bridge where there is none? I guess thats maybe not non-standard but it'd be more offensive than most uses for silent image. I always tried to word my image descriptions so that, for instance, the bridge would be slightly lower that the ledge, so a creature would have to hop down onto it. Or the same thing with stepping stones. Plenty of Wile E. Coyote moments :)

[ShippoWildheart]

Would Scrying count as a non-standard offensive spell, when you add in the Scry-and-die idea?

[Sliver]

Would Scrying count as a non-standard offensive spell, when you add in the Scry-and-die idea?

Wouldn't having a name for the tactic hint of it not being quite non-standard?

[tyckspoon]

If you can convince your DM Hold Portal works on creatures as an offensive spell I salute your Bluff check. Here's the actual text:


Target: One Portal..

This spell magically holds shut a door, gate, window, or shutter of wood, metal, or stone

First problem: Finding something on a living creature to target that is a 'door, gate, window, or shutter'. Well.. ok, there's various flaps and valves, and the eyelids are shutters, so I guess that works. Now find one that is "wood, metal, or stone." That's.. a lot harder. If you manage that, perhaps by targeting a construct or similar, you then hit the actual effect of the spell, which is:


The magic affects the portal just as if it were securely closed and normally locked.

Normally locked. If something is incapable of *being* locked, it isn't locked, just securely closed. The DC to open it only increases by 5 (and most organic processes should be assumed to be DC 0 to carry out.. so DC 5 to negate the spell.) Congratulations- you can use Hold Portal to make a Warforged blink.

[The Dark Fiddler]

Congratulations- you can use Hold Portal to make a Warforged blink.

Best. Spell. Ever.

[Wind d8/d12]

:smallredface: I was trying to reason out how Hold Portal could kill , didn't mean to imply I knew the rules off hand.

[tyckspoon]

:smallredface: I was trying to reason out how Hold Portal could kill , didn't mean to imply I knew the rules off hand.

I've been trying to figure that out too since Heliomance suggested it. The best I could come up with is deliberately ignoring how the spell actually works, similarly to how people will often suggest "Create Water in their lungs/skull!" You can't affect organic material with it, and while you could possibly close certain openings on equipment I can't think of any that would have lethal or even especially hampering effects.

[Longcat]

Silent Image to pose as a bridge above a canyon.

[Wind d8/d12]

Silent Image to pose as a bridge above a canyon.
:smallfurious:

I like the idea of locking someone's finger in a doorjam though. Good way to inconvenience/really really hurt.

[Siosilvar]

Silent Image to pose as a bridge above a canyon.

Not really non-standard. cf. illusory floor over spiked pit.

[Dvandemon]

Not really non-standard but Stone Shape+Craft(statue) check+Stone To Flesh+Create Undead. Its really complicated I know, so how about just using Stone to Flesh to get free material for a Flesh Golem?

[Gamerlord]

Mage hand can grab very light weapons from an opponet.

[Bibliomancer]

Here's something a novice player tried on one of my games:

Stone Shape on a boulder that was next to a hiding opponent to pin them to the ground by reshaping the boulder so that is tipped onto them and covered them.

Might not technically be allowed, but it was creative enough that I said it worked.

[Vizzerdrix]

Mage hand can grab very light weapons from an opponet.

Would it be enough to spill an archer's quiver or tip over a SCP?

[Gamerlord]

Would it be enough to spill an archer's quiver or tip over a SCP?

5 lbs is the limit.

[Vizzerdrix]

5 lbs is the limit.

So both or those are a yes. Dump the archers arrows and hit the square with an Alchemist's fire. No more archer. Same with a component pouch.


Hmm... It can effect up to 5 lbs... Would that be enough to ready it to crush any fragile item drawn by a target (5 LBS IS enough to pull a human ear off)?

Say, ready an action to squeeze a potion or alchemist's item?

[The Dark Fiddler]

So both or those are a yes. Dump the archers arrows and hit the square with an Alchemist's fire. No more archer. Same with a component pouch.


Hmm... It can effect up to 5 lbs... Would that be enough to ready it to crush any fragile item drawn by a target (5 LBS IS enough to pull a human ear off)?

Say, ready an action to squeeze a potion or alchemist's item?

I'd imagine that would take some sort of modified disarm check, though.

[Vizzerdrix]

I'd imagine that would take some sort of modified disarm check, though.

Nope. You don't hold either so your not disarming. Your Spilling. Roll to spill maybe, but not disarm.

[Dimers]

Animate Rope to tie together your opponent's shoelaces. :smallsmile:

[lsfreak]

Flesh to Stone
Transmute Stone to Mud
Purify Water

You have just effectively erased someone from existence, short of Miracle or Wish. They are not dead, so no resurrection spells work. Short of divinations specifically trying to find the person, there is no way to know what happened. Even if you DO know what happened to them, there's nothing you can do about it short of Miracle or Wishing them a body again.

[Nate the Snake]

Flesh to Stone
Transmute Stone to Mud
Purify Water

You have just effectively erased someone from existence, short of Miracle or Wish. They are not dead, so no resurrection spells work. Short of divinations specifically trying to find the person, there is no way to know what happened. Even if you DO know what happened to them, there's nothing you can do about it short of Miracle or Wishing them a body again.

So if their soul is not in their body (the body is gone) and not in the afterlife (resurrections don't work), then where is their soul? :smallconfused:

No, wait a minute. It's obvious what happens: they become a vestige.

Okay, now I want to homebrew a vestige with this as a backstory. :smalltongue:

[Claudius Maximus]

Mage hand can only affect unattended items, so all this about disarming and spilling containers is not possible.

[absolmorph]

Mage hand can only affect unattended items, so all this about disarming and spilling containers is not possible.
I think this makes it the best way to ruin a tea party, EVER.
Mage Hand the tea and dump it on someone. Then drop whatever it was in.
Or just Mage Hand an Alchemist's Fire over someone and dump it.

[MickJay]

Flesh to Stone
Transmute Stone to Mud
Purify Water

You have just effectively erased someone from existence, short of Miracle or Wish. They are not dead, so no resurrection spells work. Short of divinations specifically trying to find the person, there is no way to know what happened. Even if you DO know what happened to them, there's nothing you can do about it short of Miracle or Wishing them a body again.

Transmute Rock to Mud specifies natural, uncut or unworked stone as its allowed targets (so even simple masonry is unaffected). Magical stone is specifically excluded. I'm pretty sure that someone who has magically been turned to stone does no longer count as "natural" or "unworked" rock.

[Siosilvar]

Transmute Rock to Mud specifies natural, uncut or unworked stone as its allowed targets (so even simple masonry is unaffected). Magical stone is specifically excluded. I'm pretty sure that someone who has magically been turned to stone does no longer count as "natural" or "unworked" rock.

Does chopping them up into little bits with an adamantine axe first count?

Failing that, fabricate a rock out of them.

[MickJay]

I guess it would count, chopping them up would make the stone magical, unnatural and cut. :smalltongue: Using any other spells or effects would just add further reasons for the petrified creature to be immune to TRtM.

[absolmorph]

Does chopping them up into little bits with an adamantine axe first count?

Failing that, fabricate a rock out of them.
Or just hit them in the face with a hammer until their head breaks.
Then move on to their body.
Then get rid of the spell.

[MickJay]

Such person would still be perfectly possible to bring back with True Resurrection (eliminating this is the whole point of the unusable trick with Rock to Mud/Purify Water spells).

[lsfreak]

Such person would still be perfectly possible to bring back with True Resurrection (eliminating this is the whole point of the unusable trick with Rock to Mud/Purify Water spells).

If it worked (which I guess unfortunately it doesn't), they never died, so True Resurrection wouldn't work. Flesh to Stone doesn't kill the person unless they have the spell broken and then fail a save; they are fully alive while made of stone. They never die when being transmuted to mud, and are still not dead when turned into ordinary water. Effectively, the target has become sentient - but completely helpless - water.

I suppose a half-decent alternative is just to turn them to stone and then grind them to extremely fine sand, and toss it to the wind. But that's not nearly as fun.

[Runestar]

Yeah, but it's pretty tough to argue that the halfling rogue can actually reach something vital on the say... colossal monstrous scorpion (CR 12) without flight.

The problem is that said quote doesn't really delineate the boundaries of what it means to be able to reach a monster's vitals. I would simply assume the tiny halfling finds some way to hit the vitals of a colossal tarrasque somehow and allow sneak attack.

[Vulaas]

The question is, though, if you DO convince your DM to allow you to use the Transmute/Purify trick...What happens when you drink the water?

Do they become sentient pee?

:smallfrown:

[Dvandemon]

I once asked my DM if Mage Hand can be use on liquids. I was in a polluted swamp and wanted to use the water to blind my opponent*. Besides that I use Mage Hand to levitate my dagger and attack from behind
* My DM is constantly surprised by my creativeness:smallsmile:

[MickJay]

The question is, though, if you DO convince your DM to allow you to use the Transmute/Purify trick...What happens when you drink the water?

Do they become sentient pee?

:smallfrown:

Nope, they'd still be unconscious pee. :smalltongue:

@ Isfreak: absolmorth wanted to turn the broken pieces back to flesh once the statue was shattered - the result would be instant death, which would allow resurrection. More effective way of preventing resurrection would be to drop the petrified creature into a volcano so the rock itself would melt, dissolve in magma and eventually end up spread all around the volcano. Of course, powdering and scattering the dust would also work.

[Thurbane]

Enlarge person to reduce an enemy's AC and DEX.

[Ravens_cry]

Enlarge person to reduce an enemy's AC and DEX.
Not to mention more spaces for flanking and beat stickery.

[Lysander]

Levitate a big heavy object over an enemy and let go. 100lb/level of weight can cause quite a bit of damage.

Have someone with a lot of hp read Explosive Runes when surrounded by a crowd of enemies. This works create against incorporeal creatures! Give your fighter a piece of paper with explosive runes on it, so the next time he has to fight ghosts just wait until they're all close and read it.

Cast Knock on a trap door when an enemy is standing on it.

Here's a combo I like. Cast fly on yourself. Cast charm on an enemy. Now that they're your friend they'll let you take them somewhere with Dimension Door: 500ft straight up. Then you let go :smallbiggrin:

Hide a force of warriors in a Rope Trick or a Mage's Magnificient Mansion to stage an ambush from.

Dismissal could potentially kill an outsider. It has a 20% chance of sending them to wrong plane.

How about a Secret Chest? Push someone in, then banish them to the ethereal plane.

[Signmaker]

Levitate a big heavy object over an enemy and let go. 100lb/level of weight can cause quite a bit of damage.


1d6/200 lbs, so eh.

[absolmorph]

1d6/200 lbs, so eh.
That's... Underwhelming.

[Fortuna]

Thinking about the Flesh to Stone etc. idea: Flesh to Stone, grind to powder, drop in mud, purify water. Easy. Does that work?

[MickJay]

I have no idea. "Purify" works on rotten, spoiled, poisoned or contaminated food/drink. It is not explained how the spell works exactly - it could as well remove impurities and stash them somewhere else (otherwise it would have to work like disintegration). Plus, would it actually work on mud? The spell could simply fail on the basis that there's less of water than of "impurities" there. Mud, by definition, is wet earth. If anything, it could work if you put a handful of dust into a bowl of water, but a little of grit is hardly dangerous and could be left in the vessel, since it does not, in fact, "contaminate" water. "Purify" spell is very basic, its main use is to get rid of dangerous stuff from consumables, not to make them crystal clear.

It also doesn't work on magic potions. Now, a handful of magically transformed flesh put in water probably doesn't constitute a "potion", but who knows. :smalltongue:

[Fortuna]

OK then. How can we turn rock into something poisonous?

[MickJay]

Turn it back to flesh. Lots of tiny bits of tissue floating in your drink are probably not good for your health (unless you boil the water and the bits were not floating in there for a long time). In that case, you end up with a soup.

Also, I've been wondering why exactly the whole StF/RtM/PW combo (even if it worked) was supposed to prevent a Wish from bringing back the victim's body. Sure, by strict RAW the person is unconscious, but RAW for PW does say that the spell eliminates or destroys the "impurities", it merely makes whatever the spell worked on suitable for consumption. This suggests making toxins and microbes inert, or relocating them, not necessarily making them disappear (same goes for petrified/mudified/dissolved body). Why would it be beyond the power of Wish to reassemble such a body?

[2xMachina]

Wish is ok.

But the problem is resurrection won't work, because technically, it's not dead yet.

[MickJay]

Yes, but once you've got the body, you can simply use Stone to Flesh. Even if "the operation was successful. Unfortunately the patient died" situation occurs, you already have the body for resurrection.

[lsfreak]

Nothing is preventing Wish from working. The point is that they need a 9th-level spell to undo the work of a 9th-level caster. Not to mention the work that has to be done in order to even make that Wish worthwhile (like taking the time to figure out that the person is not, in fact, dead, but is 'somewhere').

Wish can simply make a new body for someone, you don't even need to reassemble it from its parts. But True Resurrection still doesn't work because they're not dead. That's the whole point - someone is beyond the reach of Resurrection to take care of (turning them back into flesh, and therefore killing them, in order to purify the water is thus against the intent of the action, as they are now dead and can be resurrected). You have to spend the time to know that the person wasn't killed, and then spend the time trying to figure out what the hell happened to them. And THEN you can Wish them a body and/or into the body.

[Jarrick]

If undead legions are your bag, the spell "Brilliant aura"(spell comp.) can (Save negates) affect enemies, giving their weapons the brilliant energy property, which makes them useless against undead.

Note:This hint is plagiarized from complete mage. Actual results may vary. Void where prohibited.