Fire and Steel: A new d20 System (WIP) (PEACH)

[Drakevarg]

I've decided, largely on a whim and partially out of a desire to prune out all the bits of DnD I dislike, to create my own d20 system. My second attempt. Last one was a complete failure and I'd rather not think about it, but whilst I work on this one I think I might have to quit vidjagaming cold turky. (But not until I've finished with Oblivion... yeah, that'll happen.)

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Anywho, right now it's still in conceptual stages, but here's my ideas thus far;

Attributes reduced from 6 to 4;

Strength- Physical Output, naturally. Applies to damage, carrying capacity, ability to break things, whatever.
Stamina- Physical Resiliance. A character's Stamina score is the same as their HP. It also concerns someones ability to resist fatigue.
Dexterity- Maneuverability. Applies to a character's ability to hit what they're aiming at, dodge things, and physical co-ordination in general.
Willpower- Mental Resiliance. A character's Willpower score determines their maximum spellcasting ability and their spell output per day.

Initial stats are determined thusly; 1d6+8, then add racial modifiers.

All of the mental attributes from DnD (Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma) are purely roleplaying material and have no statistical significence.

No Classes;

Characters no longer have any Hit Dice or Classes; each "level" a character earns a Talent, with an additional Talent every third level. Talents will be expanded to include things such as Combat Training (increases Attack Bonus), Arcane Studies (increases spell levels), and various exercises (increase Attributes.) Various Talent Trees will serve as proxies for class abilities.

Skill Points will still be present, but they will only apply to physical skills, such as stealth, athletics, et cetera.

Although Talents and such would allow attributes to increase, there is simply a point that mere mortals would be incapable of reaching, and so most Attributes would likely have a capstone of about 20 + racial bonus. (For example, an Orc would have a racial Strength Bonus of +2. Thus the maximum Natural Strength of an Orc would be 22. A Human, with no natural bonuses, would have a maximum natural Strength of 20. An Elf, who has a racial penalty of -2, would have a maximum natural Strength of 18.) Magical items could feasibly allow a character to surpass this limitation.

Different AC System;

This system would use a different combat system, taking two steps to damage a target:

1) Hit what you're aiming at. This is where Attack Bonuses and DEX Modifiers come in. To hit a medium-sized target at melee range, you'd need to roll an average of 10. A character with high DEX would be harder to hit, for example if they had 14 DEX (a +2 Modifier) you'd need a 12 to hit. However, if you had a DEX of 12 (a +1 Modifier), this would be reduced to 11. Further reductions would come from a higher Attack Bonus.
2) Make it hurt. A character wearing armor might not be wounded by a blow regardless of whether or not you hit them. So in order to deal damage you'd have to overcome their armor's Damage Reduction. Say you hit a character wearing leather armor with your mace (1d8 + your Strength modifer. Let's say +1.) Leather Armor has Damage Reduction of 2, (Not nessicarily true, I don't know. This is just an example.) so you'd need to roll at least a 2 to deal damage at all. (2+1= 3-2 DR= 1 Damage.)

I'm also considering making armor come in individual pieces instead of a full set, which would necessitate knowing where on the body you hit and the DR of each piece of armor.

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All this has been stream-of-conciousness so far, so I'm going to pause and see if anyone points out either a) something exactly like this has already been done, or b) this concept is inherently flawed in "x" way.

Feel free to offer your own suggestions.

[Zexion]

Armor in individual pieces: TOO COMPLICATED
Better make it if you beat the AC by 5 or higher, then get a result on a d20 less than your Hit Dice you hit a weak spot in the armor. You overcome damage reduction and do an extra 1d6 damage...
EDIT: For the armor DR, I think you should make it so that the DR cannot reduce damage beneath one, I.E., you always do at least one damage UNLESS the armor has at least 10 more DR than your damage done. Does that make sense?
Summary: to take no damage from an attack, your armor needs to beat their damage dealt by at least 10.

[Solaris]

Armor in individual pieces: TOO COMPLICATED

Depends on how many hits you need to kill a guy.


Better make it if you beat the AC by 5 or higher, then get a result on a d20 less than your Hit Dice you hit a weak spot in the armor. You overcome damage reduction and do an extra 1d6 damage...

I disagree. It's perfectly reasonable to assume that a d4 dagger is not going to damage a guy in plate unless it hits the right spot (which daggers were used for).


EDIT: For the armor DR, I think you should make it so that the DR cannot reduce damage beneath one, I.E., you always do at least one damage UNLESS the armor has at least 10 more DR than your damage done.

And you complained about hitting spots on the body being overcomplication.

[Drakevarg]

That doesn't make a terrible ammount of sense. If a blow from a weapon was always going to wound at least a little bit, armor would not be very useful. Remember, unlike DnD where a high level character will have over 100 hp, a character in this system has a maximum possible HP of 20 without some sort of magical aid. So if every single blow was hurting you, even if it's a fist on full plate, a character's life expectancy would be about 3 battles.

As another note, what was "AC" in DnD, is now "Hit" and "Harm." So wearing full plate doesn't give you +8 AC. Especially if I wound up using a Max Dex penalty, that would mean that your maximum dodge rating would be 11. (Remember, until I get around to statting items I'm assuming that the armor itself is directly lifted from DnD). That means that it's really easy to HIT your enemy, it's just not easy to HURT them. So now they have a Dodge Rating of 11 (ergo, you need to roll 11 - your own DEX Bonus and Attack Bonus to hit them physically) and Damage Reduction of 8. (Meaning you need to deal at least 9 damage to get through their armor and hit their squishy parts.

As for the finding a kink in the armor? Well if I designed the complex "individual pieces of armor", I'd also be calculating in the chance of hitting a part not covered in armor, where only Natural Damage Reduction (i.e., a dragon's thick skin) would apply. For most races they wouldn't get any, so most of the point would be hitting those fleshy bits.

Ninja Spotted In Preview: Solaris hit it right on the head. No matter what level you fight someone at, their HP is going to be relatively low by DnD standards, since like I said, HP = Stamina. So if you have a Stamina score of 14, you have 14 HP. And it would not take that long to kill someone with 14 HP.

[Zexion]

That doesn't make a terrible ammount of sense. If a blow from a weapon was always going to wound at least a little bit, armor would not be very useful. Remember, unlike DnD where a high level character will have over 100 hp, a character in this system has a maximum possible HP of 20 without some sort of magical aid. So if every single blow was hurting you, even if it's a fist on full plate, a character's life expectancy would be about 3 battles.

As another note, what was "AC" in DnD, is now "Hit" and "Harm." So wearing full plate doesn't give you +8 AC. Especially if I wound up using a Max Dex penalty, that would mean that your maximum dodge rating would be 11. (Remember, until I get around to statting items I'm assuming that the armor itself is directly lifted from DnD). That means that it's really easy to HIT your enemy, it's just not easy to HURT them. So now they have a Dodge Rating of 11 (ergo, you need to roll 11 - your own DEX Bonus and Attack Bonus to hit them physically) and Damage Reduction of 8. (Meaning you need to deal at least 9 damage to get through their armor and hit their squishy parts.

As for the finding a kink in the armor? Well if I designed the complex "individual pieces of armor", I'd also be calculating in the chance of hitting a part not covered in armor, where only Natural Damage Reduction (i.e., a dragon's thick skin) would apply. For most races they wouldn't get any, so most of the point would be hitting those fleshy bits.

Ninja Spotted In Preview: Solaris hit it right on the head. No matter what level you fight someone at, their HP is going to be relatively low by DnD standards, since like I said, HP = Constitution. So if you have a Constitution score of 14, you have 14 HP. And it would not take that long to kill someone with 14 HP.

My mistake. I concur.

[Drakevarg]

Lemme try to emulate the PHB's rundown of the abilites real quick-like.

STRENGTH (STR)
Strength measures your character's muscle and physical power. It also determines the ammount of wieght your character can carry.
You apply your character's Strength Modifier to:
-Damage rolls. Light weapons recieve only half the character's Strength bonus, while two-handed weapons receive half again the character's strength bonus.
-Athletics checks.
-Strength checks (for breaking down doors and the like.)*

*I'm considering it just being a staight-up comparison. After all, if you used a Strength check to determine the result of an arm wrestle, a guy with a STR of 8 could beat a guy with a STR of 20 if the latter rolled a 1, which just doesn't make a great deal of sense.

DEXTERITY (DEX)
Dexterity measures your character's maneuverability and coordination.
You apply your character's Dexterity Modifier to:
-Attack rolls.
-Dodge Rating, provided your character can react to the attack.
-Acrobatics and Stealth, and Sleight of Hand checks.
-Dexterity checks (reacting to a collapsing floor, etc.)

STAMINA (STA)
Stamina measures your character's physical resiliance. Stamina is also equivalent to Hit Points.
You apply your character's Stamina Modifier to:
-Stamina checks (to continue a physically taxing action, like running, or to resist poison and the like.)

WILLPOWER (WIL)
Willpower measure's your character's mental resiliance. It also determines your character's maximum spellcasting capacity.
You apply your character's Willpower Modifier to:
-Willpower checks (to maintain focus under duress, resist mind control, etc.)
-Turn checks for clerics.
-The save DC for a caster's spells.

[Drakevarg]

Here's a conceptual stage for the multiple piece armor system. So far it only applies on the "To Hit" stage of combat;

Head- 10% chance to hit. Striking the head deals double damage. A successful critical hit on the head is an instant kill.
Torso- 30% chance to hit. A successful critical hit on the torso deals double damage.
Shoulders- 10% chance to hit either shoulder. Striking a shoulder disables that arm. A successful critical hit on the shoulder with a bladed weapon severs that arm.
Hands- 5% chance to hit either hand. Striking a hand disables that hand. A successful critical hit on the hand with a bladed weapon severs it.
Legs- 10% chance to hit either leg. Striking a leg forces the character to move at half speed. If both legs are wounded the character cannot walk. A successful critical hit on the leg with a bladed weapon severs it.
Feet- 5% chance to hit either foot. Striking a foot forces the character to move at half speed. If both feet are wounded the character cannot walk. A successful critical hit on the foot with a bladed weapon severs it.

Note that although there are 10 points a character can be struck on, there are only 5 pieces of armor; Cuirass (torso, both shoulders), Greaves (both legs), Boots (both feet), Gauntlets (both hands), and Helmet (head). Gauntlets and Boots can be worn individually, but they almost always come in a set.

Shields apply to a character's Dodge Rating, since striking the shield isn't strictly speaking striking the character. However, the attacker can try to destroy the shield. (Haven't figured out the mechanic for it yet. Parrying will likely work in the same way.)

Unarmed attacks to not receive bonuses for striking in a particular location. A critical hit with an unarmed strike receives normal (non-critical) bonuses.

[Temotei]

Here's a conceptual stage for the multiple piece armor system. So far it only applies on the "To Hit" stage of combat;

Head- 10% chance to hit. Striking the head deals double damage. A successful critical hit on the head is an instant kill.
Torso- 30% chance to hit. A successful critical hit on the torso deals double damage.
Shoulders- 10% chance to hit either shoulder. Striking a shoulder disables that arm. A successful critical hit on the shoulder severs that arm.
Hands- 5% chance to hit either hand. Striking a hand disables that hand. A successful critical hit on the hand severs it.
Legs- 10% chance to hit either leg. Striking a leg forces the character to move at half speed. If both legs are wounded the character cannot walk. A successful critical hit on the leg severs it.
Feet- 5% chance to hit either foot. Striking a foot forces the character to move at half speed. If both feet are wounded the character cannot walk. A successful critical hit on the foot severs it.

Note that although there are 10 points a character can be struck on, there are only 5 pieces of armor; Cuirass (torso, both shoulders), Greaves (both legs), Boots (both feet), Gauntlets (both hands), and Helmet (head). Gauntlets and Boots can be worn individually, but they almost always come in a set.

Shields apply to a character's Dodge Rating, since striking the shield isn't strictly speaking striking the character. However, the attacker can try to destroy the shield. (Haven't figured out the mechanic for it yet. Parrying will likely work in the same way.)

I can just imagine punching someone's arm off.

[Drakevarg]

Hah. Didn't think of that. Perhaps I should specify "critical hit with a bladed weapon."

Or simply that unarmed attacks don't get those bonuses. Since it's unlikely that you can disable someone's arm with a punch either.

Alternatively the bonuses that most items get on a normal hit apply to an unarmed strike's critical.

[Temotei]

Hah. Didn't think of that. Perhaps I should specify "critical hit with a bladed weapon."

Or simply that unarmed attacks don't get those bonuses. Since it's unlikely that you can disable someone's arm with a punch either.

Alternatively the bonuses that most items get on a normal hit apply to an unarmed strike's critical.

Or you could just say there's a Strength or Dexterity requirement for unarmed characters to get the same effects.

[Drakevarg]

Or you could just say there's a Strength or Dexterity requirement for unarmed characters to get the same effects.

Care to elaborate?

Fwah... I keep learning new ways to get ninja'd. Didn't even look at what was quoted.

I suppose that could work, simply being strong enough to snap someone's kneecap with a punch. Though the same could easily apply to maces and such, so I think that'd be a bit much. Leaving it at "does this on crit" makes more sense to me.

Though I could also say that dealing enough damage at once has the same effect as a critical.

[Glimbur]

So there is an Attack Bonus, which is probably from Talents. Is there a corresponding Defense Bonus, or are high level martial characters always going to hit each other?

[Drakevarg]

I think a Dodge Bonus would be reasonable, but I haven't reached the point of writing up talents yet.

But just as attributes will have a capstone, Attack Bonus almost certaintly will, too.

[Drakevarg]

Some Talents, just as a starter;

Strength Training
Exercise has made you stronger, increasing your Natural Strength by +1.
Special: You may select this Talent multiple times. Its effects stack. However, your Natural Strength cannot exceed 20 + your Racial Strength Bonus.

Stamina Training
Exercise has made you tougher, increasing your Natural Stamina by +1.
Special: You may select this Talent multiple times. Its effects stack. However, your Natural Stamina cannot exceed 20 + your Racial Stamina Bonus.

Dexterity Training
Practice has made you more coordinated, increasing your Natural Dexterity by +1.
Special: You may select this Talent multiple times. Its effects stack. However, your Natural Dexterity cannot exceed 20 + your Racial Dexterity Bonus.

Willpower Training
You have trained yourself to handle stress better, increasing your Natural Willpower by +1.
Special: You may select this Talent multiple times. Its effects stack. However, your Natural Willpower cannot exceed 20 + your Racial Willpower Bonus.

Also, still in the conceptual stage: Bloodline Traits. Basically special talents you can only take at first level, which can do such nifty things as further increasing your natural ability capstones.

Example:

Strong Willed
You are blessed with an exceptionally strong willpower, increasing your Racial Willpower Bonus by +2.

(For example a human (being the "baseline" race) has a maximum Natural Willpower of 20. A human with the Strong Willed Trait has a maximum Natural Willpower of 22.)

[Temotei]

Some Talents, just as a starter;

Strength Training
Exercise has made you stronger, increasing your Natural Strength by +1.
Special: You may select this Talent multiple times. Its effects stack. However, your Natural Strength cannot exceed 20 + your Racial Strength Bonus.

Stamina Training
Exercise has made you tougher, increasing your Natural Stamina by +1.
Special: You may select this Talent multiple times. Its effects stack. However, your Natural Stamina cannot exceed 20 + your Racial Stamina Bonus.

Dexterity Training
Practice has made you more coordinated, increasing your Natural Dexterity by +1.
Special: You may select this Talent multiple times. Its effects stack. However, your Natural Dexterity cannot exceed 20 + your Racial Dexterity Bonus.

Willpower Training
You have trained yourself to handle stress better, increasing your Natural Willpower by +1.
Special: You may select this Talent multiple times. Its effects stack. However, your Natural Willpower cannot exceed 20 + your Racial Willpower Bonus.

Also, still in the conceptual stage: Bloodline Traits. Basically special talents you can only take at first level, which can do such nifty things as further increasing your natural ability capstones.

Example:

Strong Willed
You are blessed with an exceptionally strong willpower, increasing your Racial Willpower Bonus by +2.

(For example a human (being the "baseline" race) has a maximum Natural Willpower of 20. A human with the Strong Willed Trait has a maximum Natural Willpower of 22.)

Is it Stamina now?

So, I imagine you get a talent at first level as well as one every level after (+1/3 levels).

So a "level 20" half-orc character could have...
Strength: 24 (max)
Dexterity: 18
Constitution: 20 (max)
Willpower: 7

Talents: Strong Arms (I don't know what you're going to call the Strength version of strong-willed) -- 1st
Strength Training -- 2nd
Strength Training -- 3rd
Strength Training -- 3rd+
Strength Training -- 4th
Strength Training -- 5th
Strength Training -- 6th
Strength Training -- 6th+
Strength Training -- 7th
Strength Training -- 8th
Constitution Training -- 9th
Constitution Training -- 9th+
Constitution Training -- 10th
Constitution Training -- 11th
Constitution Training -- 12th
Constitution Training -- 12th+
Constitution Training -- 13th
Constitution Training -- 14th
Constitution Training -- 15th
Dexterity Training -- 15th+
Dexterity Training -- 16th
Dexterity Training -- 17th
Dexterity Training -- 18th
Dexterity Training -- 18th+
Dexterity Training -- 19th
Dexterity Training -- 20th

This is using my rolls from the dice roller on the Wizards site. Results: 1, 3, 3, 5.

I'm also assuming half-orc gets +2 Strength, -2 Willpower.

Am I right on this?

By the way--more talents are definitely needed, as you most likely know. Ability score increases are nice and all, but not as cool as, say, maneuvers.

Once you add more talents, consider including a way to increase ability scores via levels.

[Drakevarg]

Yes, it's Stamina. I just forgot to retcon the earlier posts.

Proper scores would be:

Strength: 22.
Stamina: 20.
Dexterity: 18.
Willpower: 11.

More talents will definately be forthcoming, that's simply what I had scribbled into my notebook. As for the ability score increases, I might keep 3.5's "every four levels" thing.

And finally, though this may still be changed, what with it being still conceptual and all, but I was imagining Bloodline Traits to be seperate from Talents. So at first level you'd get a Talent AND a Bloodline Trait.

[Temotei]

Yes, it's Stamina. I just forgot to retcon the earlier posts.

Proper scores would be:

Strength: 22.
Stamina: 20.
Dexterity: 18.
Willpower: 11.

More talents will definately be forthcoming, that's simply what I had scribbled into my notebook. As for the ability score increases, I might keep 3.5's "every four levels" thing.

And finally, though this may still be changed, what with it being still conceptual and all, but I was imagining Bloodline Traits to be seperate from Talents. So at first level you'd get a Talent AND a Bloodline Trait.

Pretty sure half-orc gets bonus Strength, raising the limit to 22. The bloodline trait raising the limit to 24 is where I got the maximum.

Ah. I'll be waiting for more talents.

[Drakevarg]

Initial roll: 8 + 1 = 9.
Half-Orc Bonus: 9 + 2 = 11.
Bloodline Trait: 11 + 2 = 13.
Strength Training: 13 + 9 = 22.

The capstone is 24. His current level is 22.

Now, if ye don't mind, I have school in 6 hours and haven't slept yet. G'night.

[Temotei]

Initial roll: 8 + 1 = 9.
Half-Orc Bonus: 9 + 2 = 11.
Bloodline Trait: 11 + 2 = 13.
Strength Training: 13 + 9 = 22.

The capstone is 24. His current level is 22.

Now, if ye don't mind, I have school in 6 hours and haven't slept yet. G'night.


1d6+8

With a result of 5 + 8, that's 13 at first. Half-orc -- 15. Bloodline trait increases the cap to 24. Strength Training x9 = 24.

Sorry. I just like to work your system. :smallwink:

[Drakevarg]

Ah. I just assumed the rolls you said you'd recieved were in the same listed order as the attributes themselves (that is, 1 to STR, 3 to STA, 3 to DEX, and 5 to WIL). If it was 5 to STR and 1 to WIL, which is admittedly more logical, then yes, your stats were correct.

[Drakevarg]

Here's some (currently fluff-less) races I scribbled up in class today;

Human
None. Humans are the "baseline" race, and all Racial Bonuses and Penalties are in comparison to humans.

Canus
Canine Strength: Canus are stronger than humans, and have a +2 Racial Strength Bonus.
Bite: A Canus's powerful jaws make for an effective natural weapon, dealing 1d6 damage. A Canus's bite attack is equivalent to a one-handed weapon in regards to Strength Modifiers to damage.
Low-Light Vision: Canus can see twice as far as humans in conditions of poor lighting.
Level Adjustment +3: Canus do not gain Talents for the first three levels. However, they are still receive Bloodline Traits.

Neko
Feline Dexterity: Neko are extremely agile, and have a +2 Racial Dexterity Bonus.
Feline Willpower: Neko are fiercely independant and have a very powerful sense of self, receiving a +2 Racial Willpower Bonus.
Bite: A Neko's powerful jaws make for an effective natural weapon, dealing 1d6 damage. A Neko's bite attack is equivalent to a one-handed weapon in regards to Strength Modifiers to damage.
Claw: A Neko's claws are sharp enough to make for fuctional natural weapons, dealing 1d4 damage each. A Neko's claw attack is equivalent to a light weapon in regards to Strength Modifiers to damage.
Low-Light Vision: Neko can see twice as far as humans in conditions of poor lighting.
Level Adjustment +6: Neko do not gain Talents for the first six levels. However, they are still receive Bloodline Traits.

Saurian
Reptilian Stamina: Saurians are extremely tough, receiving a +2 Racial Stamina Bonus.
Thick Hide: A Saurian's skin is extremely thick, giving it a Natural Armor Rating of +2.
Bite: A Saurian's powerful jaws make for an effective natural weapon, dealing 1d6 damage. A Saurian's bite attack is equivalent to a one-handed weapon in regards to Strength Modifiers to damage.
Claw: A Saurian's claws are sharp enough to make for fuctional natural weapons, dealing 1d4 damage each. A Saurian's claw attack is equivalent to a light weapon in regards to Strength Modifiers to damage.
Tail: A Saurian can strike its opponents with its thick tail as a natural weapon that deals 1d8 damage. A Saurian's tail attack is equivalent to a two-handed weapon in regards to Strength Modifiers to damage.
Heatsense: A Saurian can detect heat through pits located near its nostrils. It automatically senses the location of any heat sources within 60 ft of itself. This includes any warm-blooded animals.
Level Adjustment +7: Saurians do not gain Talents for the first seven levels. However, they are still receive Bloodline Traits.

Minotaur
Bull's Strength: A Minotaur is incredibly powerful, giving it a Racial Strength Bonus of +2.
Bull's Stamina: A Minotaur is extremely resilient, and has a Racial Stamina Bonus of +2.
Large Size: A Minotaur is a large creature, giving it +2 Racial Strength and Stamina Bonuses, and a -2 Racial Dexterity Penalty. These penalties stack with its non-size-related Bonuses.
Thick Hide: A Minotaur's skin is extremely thick, giving it a Natural Armor Rating of +2.
Gore: A Minotaur can gore opponents with its horns as a natural weapon that deals 2d6 damage. A Minotaur's gore attack is equivalent to a two-handed weapon in regards to Strength Modifiers to damage.
Level Adjustment +9: Saurians do not gain Talents for the first seven levels. However, they are still receive Bloodline Traits.

As you can see, I'm having trouble coming up with races without level adjustment. Partially because I don't want to go straight for the stock fantasy races, (sorta; I of course already have lizard folk and minotaurs... but no elves yet!) and partially because humans are physically quite pathetic creatures. The main reason they're successful in the universe that'll be accompanying this system is that they breed like rabbits by comparison to everyone else...

Oh, and I thought of a name. (Finally.) "Fire and Steel."