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Edge of Dreams
2010-01-17, 11:49 PM
EDIT: Clearing up a known misconception here: Free Actions ARE allowed on enemy turns explicitly in the PHB

Main Post:

Having some issues with Immediate Interrupts, Reactions, and free actions

One of the Artificer infusions, Resistive Formula, says the target "can end the bonus as a free action to gain temp hp..." Now, before I get to the main rules question about this power, let me set some context.

There are Immediate Interrupts available in the game that take place in-between getting hit and taking the damage, and the PHB even mentions that if an interrupt causes you to no longer be in range of an attack, that attack does not happen and the action is lost. At least a couple examples are in AV.

There are Immediate Reactions that trigger on being hit, but I am not clear on whether or not it is possible for an Immediate Reaction that triggers on hit to affect whether or not you take the damage or how much you take. For example, my group has commonly interpreted Cape of the Mountebank's power:

- "Daily: Immediate Reaction. Use this power when you are hit by an attack. Teleport 5 squares and gain combat advantage against the attacker until the end of your next turn."

as causing you to not be hit by the attack. But today I read in PHB that
"An immediate reaction lets you act in
response to a trigger. The triggering action, event, or
condition occurs and is completely resolved before
you take your reaction, except that you can interrupt
a creature’s movement."
So now I'm not so sure that Cape would actually stop you from taking the damage.

In any case, one of my players argues that the free action to end Resistive Forumla's ac bonus and get temp hp can be used IN-BETWEEN getting hit and taking the damage. The scenario he imagines is this:

Bob gets hit with Resistive Formula's buff.
Alice attacks Bob.
Alice declares a hit.
Bob goes "oh drat, I'm low on hp"
Bob ends Resistive Forumla's buff and gains temp hp.
Alice rolls damage
Alice's damage is dealt to Bob, and Bob's temp hp give him a nice padded buffer against the damage.

Should that be valid? I have found no examples in PHB or AV at all (after searching through pdfs with ctrl-f) of free actions that can explicitly be taken between getting hit and taking damage.

More generally, what is the priority level of a free action compared to an Interrupt or a Reaction?

RebelRogue
2010-01-17, 11:55 PM
In general, I don't think you can make Free Actions when it's not your turn. Therefore you cannot use it as a reaction in your example.

Oh, and since the Cape's Power is a Immediate Reaction you do indeed take the damage from the attack. Had it been an Immediate Interrupt on the other hand you would not have.

Edge of Dreams
2010-01-18, 12:00 AM
In general, I don't think you can make Free Actions when it's not your turn.

PHB explicitly states you may take as many free actions as you like during opponent's turns.

RebelRogue
2010-01-18, 12:10 AM
PHB explicitly states you may take as many free actions as you like during opponent's turns.
That will teach me not to consult the books before posting... It is indeed correct! As far as I can see, the rules does not really specify whether the scenario is possible or not I'm afraid :smallannoyed: As a DM I'd allow it, I guess, but others might not.

kieza
2010-01-18, 02:58 AM
I'd say that the only thing which allows an action to interrupt someone else's action is an Immediate Interrupt. So, you could use that free action on someone else's turn, but it would have to be after one action is completely resolved but before they start another.

Gralamin
2010-01-18, 03:43 AM
1) Cape of Mountebank would not stop damage: It would simply let you move after taking damage. Reactions, as you quoted, happen after the triggering action resolves: So if a reaction requires being hit, it resolves after the power that hit you completes all applicable hit effects, effects, specials, etc.

2) Free actions time to resolve is ambiguous. The most common claim follows: "Actions cannot interrupt actions unless they say so. Only Interrupts and Opportunity say do interrupt other actions. Interrupts and Opportunities are the only action that interrupts, QED". This means that they would follow the rules for reactions in so far as resolving.

3) Things that take "No action" don't have rules listed, default to following other Action rules.

Following this, you may create an approximate priority list:

--Interrupt and Opportunity--
Actions of Creature on Initiative (Standard, Move, Minor)
--Reaction, Free, No Action--

Kurald Galain
2010-01-18, 09:09 AM
PHB explicitly states you may take as many free actions as you like during opponent's turns.
I believe it's as many free actions as the DM allows :smallbiggrin:


Regardless - unless a power or action specifies that something is an interrupt, it isn't. So free actions in general aren't interrupts, and thus cannot interrupt something. This is relevant, because the normal order is this:

Monster says, "I hit you"
Player says, "I use this power"
Monster hits player
Player uses power

Whereas with an interrupt, it is different:

Monster says, "I hit you"
Player says, "I use this power"
Player uses power
Monster hits player (if that's still possible now)


Personally I would rule, although the rules are not explicit on the matter, that an attack is a discrete action: that is, you cannot do things between rolling to-hit and rolling for damage, except for interrupts, and powers that explicitly reroll things. So I believe the proper order is this:

Bob gets hit with Resistive Formula's buff.
Alice attacks Bob.
Alice declares a hit.
Alice rolls damage
Alice's damage is dealt to Bob
Bob goes "oh drat, I'm low on hp"
Bob ends Resistive Foruma's buff and gains temp hp, which gives him a nice padded buffer against future damage.

Bagelz
2010-01-18, 09:27 AM
you can't use that free action between the attack roll and the damage roll per say, as the attack is one action.
You can use it AT THE SAME TIME. Similar to how a warden can use his marking ability during a charge.
Now whether this makes you take damage, then add temp hp, or add temp hp, then take damage is probably up to the dm. However remember that rule 0 always applies - don't let rules get in the way of fun.

Personally I always let my players choose the order of things (since RAW are ambiguous). So while I let them wait to see if the roll a hit or miss, I'd rule that you cannot keep resisitive formula's bonus to ac vs that attack AND get temp before the damage. You either lose the bonus before the attack, or you take damage then apply temp hp.

Gralamin
2010-01-18, 10:16 AM
you can't use that free action between the attack roll and the damage roll per say, as the attack is one action.
You can use it AT THE SAME TIME. Similar to how a warden can use his marking ability during a charge.
Err, what? No, you cannot do this without an ability (from a feat, item, power, or class feature) that saids you may.