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Goonthegoof
2010-01-18, 11:37 AM
I'm trying to create a character that kills by grappling in a level 15 gestalt game. She's a vampire, improving grappling damage is pointless because she'll be killing via blood drain. So basically what I'm looking for is anything and everything that increases her ability to grapple. So far searching around I've found reaping mauler, Goliath, belt of growth, armbands of might and grips of the titan. Any other ideas?

Pharaoh's Fist
2010-01-18, 11:39 AM
Any way to counter Freedom of Movement?

Sstoopidtallkid
2010-01-18, 11:41 AM
I'm trying to create a character that kills by grappling in a level 15 gestalt game. She's a vampire, improving grappling damage is pointless because she'll be killing via blood drain. So basically what I'm looking for is anything and everything that increases her ability to grapple. So far searching around I've found reaping mauler, Goliath, belt of growth, armbands of might and grips of the titan. Any other ideas?Use almost none of those. The best grapplers are druids, Clerics, and PsyWars. Druid and PsyWar are my preference, since they rely less on stinky stinky cheese to get powerful buffs up for each combat. Non-caster grapplers are basically screwed against monsters since monsters have high HD(for BAB), large size(for bonuses), and massive Str. And keep in mind that by this point, the majority of stuff that doesn't have the numbers to try to grapple with you has either Dimension Door or Freedom of Movement. Grappling becomes very difficult after about level 8.

Grumman
2010-01-18, 11:47 AM
Goliath, for Powerful Build
Goliath Spirit Bear Totem Barbarian, for Improved Grab
Warblade (or any ToB class), for Constrict (via Crushing Weight of the Mountain)

Improved Grab also lets you qualify for a few feats from Serpent Kingdoms.
If you want to go with Sstoopidtallkid's suggestion, you can take the Powerful Wild Shape feat, too.

Goonthegoof
2010-01-18, 11:48 AM
I'm almost certainly going to be grappling medium sized enemies, not a lot of spellcasters around.

Goonthegoof
2010-01-18, 11:50 AM
Doesn't construct not give you anything but damage?

Sstoopidtallkid
2010-01-18, 11:50 AM
I'm almost certainly going to be grappling medium sized enemies, not a lot of spellcasters around.Non-spellcasting medium-sized enemies just makes the Vampire Dire Bear better. Though be prepared for every enemy to have maxed escape artist after about the second session.

Heliomance
2010-01-18, 12:11 PM
If this is for the gestalt arena, then there's no spellcasters at all. Also, the insane template stacking that frequently happens in optimised gestalt likely means that a good chunk of the opposition is going to be immune to your draining. This (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=92492) is the grapple monster i built for said arena, I took the slightly different path of just becoming as ungodly strong as i could and crushing them, but you might pick up some useful stuff.

Flickerdart
2010-01-18, 12:15 PM
Take the Wild Cohort feat and endear yourself to a Dire Weasel. Now you have a grappling buddy that does the same CON damage you do, so you'll chip away twice as fast.

HCL
2010-01-18, 12:27 PM
Totemist!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

2xMachina
2010-01-18, 12:30 PM
Half-Minotaur.

+1LA for Large size and some physical boost.

herrhauptmann
2010-01-18, 12:34 PM
Choker monk, with the Souldrinker PrC from BoVD (not the vampire lifedrinker PrC).
Every hit gains the enemy negative levels. Every negative level gives you boosts.
Chokers have reach, and though they're small sized, they get a +4 racial to grappling to offset size, so they're strictly better than a human of equal stats on account of reach alone.

Flickerdart
2010-01-18, 12:48 PM
Choker monk, with the Souldrinker PrC from BoVD (not the vampire lifedrinker PrC).
Every hit gains the enemy negative levels. Every negative level gives you boosts.
Chokers have reach, and though they're small sized, they get a +4 racial to grappling to offset size, so they're strictly better than a human of equal stats on account of reach alone.
The Soul Eater, from the way I read it, takes up to two negative levels with a touch attack (made as a standard action because it isn't specified). A vampire already drains 2 levels with its slam attack.
The easiest way to increase negative levels is with a Savage Vampire (Libris Mortis) that has claws instead of a slam attack. Each of a Savage Vampire's claws bestows one negative level, so a simple Totemist dip for Girallon Arms would make that 4 negative levels per full attack.

Goonthegoof
2010-01-18, 12:49 PM
I love you guys

subject42
2010-01-18, 01:03 PM
Totemist!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Seconding the totemist. A level 20 Totemist, if properly built, has a grapple check that's on par with the Tarrasque.

Sinfire Titan
2010-01-18, 01:46 PM
Totemist!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Yeah. Whoever says Druids are the best at grappling have never read the Totemist class. All you need to do to keep competent is find a way to mess with your enemy's size category or your own and you're set for life.

Talbot
2010-01-18, 02:53 PM
Since it's gestalt, it might be worth burning three levels in Factotum so you can add your Int to grappling.

Demons_eye
2010-01-18, 03:00 PM
In with those that say totemist also this might help (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=127026)




Improved Unarmed Strike -> Improved Grapple -> Scorpion's Grasp

* Pro: Locks down a single enemy, drastically limiting their options. Allows you to deal damage with opposed checks instead of attack rolls. Can deal massive damage if you have your entire build geared toward this.
* Con: Size matters, so big/strong enemies will have an advantage. You lose your Dex bonus against other attackers. Ineffective against more then one enemy at a time.
* Level of Effort: 3 feats + Monk/Fist of the Forest/Psychic Warrior or something similar if you also want to deal high damage.
* Best used against: A single powerful enemy.
* Commentary: This is another high investment/high return combo. But be careful - it works great against one enemy, but is really lousy against multiple enemies.

Aldizog
2010-01-18, 03:39 PM
Choker monk, with the Souldrinker PrC from BoVD (not the vampire lifedrinker PrC).
Every hit gains the enemy negative levels. Every negative level gives you boosts.
Chokers have reach, and though they're small sized, they get a +4 racial to grappling to offset size, so they're strictly better than a human of equal stats on account of reach alone.
Chokers also shut down V-only spellcasting in a grapple, so no Dim Door escapes. However, they don't have an LA listed, so I would think most DMs wouldn't allow them as PCs.

Person_Man
2010-01-18, 03:55 PM
May I suggest Monk 2/Psychic Warrior 13//Totemist 15

Monk provides an unarmed damage bonus and Evasion, plus good Skills. With the Tashalatora feats, your Psychic Warrior levels will stack with Monk for unarmed Damage progression. Also, Monk unarmed strikes count as natural weapons, which is important for various Totemist combos. Here's a list (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7081777) of ways to improve your unarmed damage.

Psychic Warrior provides bonus feats, Claws of the Beast, Claws of the Vampire, Expansion, Hustle, etc.

Totemist provides you access to a metric ton of natural attacks and ways to boost them. The most important:

Girillion Arms, which grants you a 2 + (2 * essentia) Competence bonus to all Grapple and Climb checks.
Heart of Fire, as it adds 1d4 + (1d4* essentia to all natural attacks) - this includes your unarmed damage.
Mauling Gauntlets: This is a Soulborn soulmeld, so you need to take a feat to get it. But it provides a 2 + (2 * essntia) bonus to all Str checks (includes Grapple, Trip, etc).
Chaos Roc's Span (Dragon mag 350 pg 87): Binding this to your shoulder chakra provides you with 2 wing buffet attacks. In addition to providing you with 2 extra natural attacks, the wings are reach weapons. This is very important for battlefield control. Also, if you hit an enemy with both wings in one round, they must Save or be Dazed for 1d4 rounds (sadly it's a mind affecting effect, but Daze is still pretty potent). So be sure to always use them for AoO.
Dragon Tail (Dragon Magic and online (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060912a&page=4)): Bound to your waist it provides you with a tail attack with reach. Only use this if your DM doesn't allow Chaos Roc's Span (presumably because it's magazine material).

sonofzeal
2010-01-18, 04:11 PM
May I suggest Monk 2/Psychic Warrior 13//Totemist 15

Monk provides an unarmed damage bonus and Evasion, plus good Skills. With the Tashalatora feats, your Psychic Warrior levels will stack with Monk for unarmed Damage progression. Also, Monk unarmed strikes count as natural weapons, which is important for various Totemist combos. Here's a list (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7081777) of ways to improve your unarmed damage.

Psychic Warrior provides bonus feats, Claws of the Beast, Claws of the Vampire, Expansion, Hustle, etc.

Totemist provides you access to a metric ton of natural attacks and ways to boost them. The most important:

Girillion Arms, which grants you a 2 + (2 * essentia) Competence bonus to all Grapple and Climb checks.
Heart of Fire, as it adds 1d4 + (1d4* essentia to all natural attacks) - this includes your unarmed damage.
Mauling Gauntlets: This is a Soulborn soulmeld, so you need to take a feat to get it. But it provides a 2 + (2 * essntia) bonus to all Str checks (includes Grapple, Trip, etc).
Chaos Roc's Span (Dragon mag 350 pg 87): Binding this to your shoulder chakra provides you with 2 wing buffet attacks. In addition to providing you with 2 extra natural attacks, the wings are reach weapons. This is very important for battlefield control. Also, if you hit an enemy with both wings in one round, they must Save or be Dazed for 1d4 rounds (sadly it's a mind affecting effect, but Daze is still pretty potent). So be sure to always use them for AoO.
Dragon Tail (Dragon Magic and online (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060912a&page=4)): Bound to your waist it provides you with a tail attack with reach. Only use this if your DM doesn't allow Chaos Roc's Span (presumably because it's magazine material).

I think it's a fair call between Monk2/Psychic Warrior13//Totemist15, and Monk1/Druid14//Totemist15. I'd lean in favour of the latter, as PsiWar can have endurance issues in my experience, though I haven't tried one past level 10 yet. Either way can be nasty, but I think the Druid wins on sheer flexibility. Whatever you're doing, there's probably a Druid spell that can at least help.

And both can profit from Vow of Poverty, since Monk limits your gear options and Totemist limits them even farther if you bind anything to anything besides Totem Chakra, which should be a given at this level.

Xenogears
2010-01-18, 05:07 PM
If you don't mind being evil you can spend 20k on a grappling arm graft (or two). they give a +4 untyped bonus to STR when using them and another +4 bonus to grapple checks using them. So thats a +8 bonus per arm for 20k per arm. You could also be good if you can become immune to ability damage or can heal 1d3 points of wis damage per day.

sonofzeal
2010-01-18, 05:14 PM
If you don't mind being evil you can spend 20k on a grappling arm graft (or two). they give a +4 untyped bonus to STR when using them and another +4 bonus to grapple checks using them. So thats a +8 bonus per arm for 20k per arm. You could also be good if you can become immune to ability damage or can heal 1d3 points of wis damage per day.
Er, a +4 bonus to STR gives a +2 bonus to Grapple, for a +6 total. Still good though.


You also don't have to be evil for a few of the more useful Maug grafts, and there's a couple that are especially good for grapplers.

herrhauptmann
2010-01-18, 05:25 PM
The Soul Eater, from the way I read it, takes up to two negative levels with a touch attack (made as a standard action because it isn't specified). A vampire already drains 2 levels with its slam attack.
The easiest way to increase negative levels is with a Savage Vampire (Libris Mortis) that has claws instead of a slam attack. Each of a Savage Vampire's claws bestows one negative level, so a simple Totemist dip for Girallon Arms would make that 4 negative levels per full attack.

I advocate the choker monk over a regular vampire, because (from what my DMs have told me) a vampire can't use his slam attack for flurry, stunning fist, etc. So he's limited to how many attacks he can make a round that drain a level.
A choker monk with that prestige class meanwhile, can activate a flurry of blows, and get that level drain for each hit. So assuming I'm remembering that correctly, the choker would get more level draining attempts than a vampire.

Xenogears
2010-01-18, 05:26 PM
Er, a +4 bonus to STR gives a +2 bonus to Grapple, for a +6 total. Still good though.


You also don't have to be evil for a few of the more useful Maug grafts, and there's a couple that are especially good for grapplers.

yes yes that is right. bad math on my part...

Yeah the Maug Locking Hand Graft gives a +5 bonus but only for stopping them from escaping (atleast insofar as grappling is concerned its the only time it works) for only 2k. I wonder if they could stack...

Could you replace your arem with a grappling tentacle and then put a stone hand at the end of it for a +11 to grapple for 22k?

I advocate the choker monk over a regular vampire, because (from what my DMs have told me) a vampire can't use his slam attack for flurry, stunning fist, etc. So he's limited to how many attacks he can make a round that drain a level.
A choker monk with that prestige class meanwhile, can activate a flurry of blows, and get that level drain for each hit. So assuming I'm remembering that correctly, the choker would get more level draining attempts than a vampire.

Actually a Vampire can only use his energy drain ability 1/round no matter how many attacks they have so its even worse than you thought.
Edit:

herrhauptmann
2010-01-18, 05:55 PM
Actually a Vampire can only use his energy drain ability 1/round no matter how many attacks they have so its even worse than you thought.

Really? Ouch. So yeah, definitely choker with the PrC over a regular vampire. I'll go look at the vampire variants later tonight, though depending on LA, that feral one mentioned might be superior to the choker.

Goonthegoof
2010-01-18, 10:00 PM
yes yes that is right. bad math on my part...

Yeah the Maug Locking Hand Graft gives a +5 bonus but only for stopping them from escaping (atleast insofar as grappling is concerned its the only time it works) for only 2k. I wonder if they could stack...

Could you replace your arem with a grappling tentacle and then put a stone hand at the end of it for a +11 to grapple for 22k?


Actually a Vampire can only use his energy drain ability 1/round no matter how many attacks they have so its even worse than you thought.
Edit:

Where would I find this stuff? Libris Mortis doesn't seem to mention those grafts.

sonofzeal
2010-01-18, 10:13 PM
yes yes that is right. bad math on my part...

Yeah the Maug Locking Hand Graft gives a +5 bonus but only for stopping them from escaping (atleast insofar as grappling is concerned its the only time it works) for only 2k. I wonder if they could stack...

Could you replace your arem with a grappling tentacle and then put a stone hand at the end of it for a +11 to grapple for 22k?
Mmmm.... yeah, should be kosher. There's no special penalty applied to the creature that tentacles negate, and the mental image is kind of awesome. And the text allows multiple locking hands to stack with themselves, so that's cool too. However, there's one problematic word: "it replaces the creature's normal hand". You could argue the tentacle constitutes a "hand" of sorts, but it's certainly not your "normal" hand. I'd allow it though.



EDIT - for those curious, this is from Fiend Folio.

Goonthegoof
2010-01-18, 10:24 PM
I just found them, is it possible to get them without paying an xp cost?

sonofzeal
2010-01-18, 10:32 PM
I just found them, is it possible to get them without paying an xp cost?
Er.... pay the market price listed?

Goonthegoof
2010-01-18, 10:36 PM
Oh, I thought you needed the feat and everything. So I can just pay the market price and it assumes that a fiend or something with the prerequisites did it for me?

Edit: Wait, grappling tentacle doesn't say it replaces a normal arm. Could I just put locking hands on my normal arms and put the tentacles on my shoulder or something?

Goonthegoof
2010-01-18, 11:37 PM
So, is there any reason I couldn't replace my hands with locking hands and then attach, say, four grappling tentacles to myself?

Goonthegoof
2010-01-19, 02:59 AM
Also is there a way to stack magical items? Say if I wanted to wear two different types of belt, is there a feat/other item that lets me do that? (Like maybe a hand of glory equivalent that works with belts)

Sstoopidtallkid
2010-01-19, 03:02 AM
Also is there a way to stack magical items? Say if I wanted to wear two different types of belt, is there a feat/other item that lets me do that? (Like maybe a hand of glory equivalent that works with belts)nothing non-epic, but there are rles for combining magic items or assigning them to different slots. What 2 belts(yes, it does matter).

Superglucose
2010-01-19, 03:03 AM
Any way to counter Freedom of Movement?

I feel like Freedom of Movement was one of the worst thought-out spells of 3.5 for exactly this reason. It's obviously not as powerful as Gate or Wish or Time Stop, or Mind Blank (though Mind Blank is a bad example because it suffers from this too), but...

they spent like four pages on grapple rules, and then wrote a spell and a magic item that basically say, "Remember those four pages back there? They didn't happen. That was fun!"

The worst part, to me, is that it starts coming into play at level 7! :smallsigh:

JaronK
2010-01-19, 03:18 AM
Also is there a way to stack magical items? Say if I wanted to wear two different types of belt, is there a feat/other item that lets me do that? (Like maybe a hand of glory equivalent that works with belts)

There's an epic feat for it, which Dragonwrought Kobolds would be able to use if you really want. Also, you can just use the MIC rules for stacking effects on a single item.

JaronK

lord_khaine
2010-01-19, 03:41 AM
The worst part, to me, is that it starts coming into play at level 7!

The impact of this spell is strongly overrated, as i recall it last only 1 round per level, and the ring that gives it permanently cost something around 60k, so its rare anyone will have it up permanently.

Eldariel
2010-01-19, 03:43 AM
The impact of this spell is strongly overrated, as i recall it last only 1 round per level, and the ring that gives it permanently cost something around 60k, so its rare anyone will have it up permanently.

10 min/level. And the Ring is 40k.

Sstoopidtallkid
2010-01-19, 03:45 AM
The impact of this spell is strongly overrated, as i recall it last only 1 round per level, and the ring that gives it permanently cost something around 60k, so its rare anyone will have it up permanently.40 K, and the spell is 10 min/level. And it's not just that spell, it's also stuff like Dim Door, which appears at level 7 as well, and allows you to get free also. Or Heart of Water. Or Travel Domain. Or having a Rogue in the party. And as a PC, you're going up against opponents that are bigger, stronger, and with better BAB than you, so it's really hard to be good at it even without the 'NO' buttons.

Superglucose
2010-01-19, 03:57 AM
40 K, and the spell is 10 min/level. And it's not just that spell, it's also stuff like Dim Door, which appears at level 7 as well, and allows you to get free also.
10 min/level can easily cover an entire dungeon crawl, while Dim. Door can only get you out of ONE grapple. After you've pulled out what's to stop them from grappling you again? And don't say "I'm flying" because for all you know the opponents you're facing are flying as well.


Or Heart of Water. Or Travel Domain. Or having a Rogue in the party. And as a PC, you're going up against opponents that are bigger, stronger, and with better BAB than you, so it's really hard to be good at it even without the 'NO' buttons.
Travel Domain *is* Freedom of Movement, Rogues don't auto free from grapple but rather just attack into the grapple (which doesn't make rogues that great either, what about a Vampire who's grappling?), and Heart of Water I am unfamiliar with as it is not core afaik.

As for saying "Well the PCs can't be great at it because your opponents are bigger, stronger, and have better BAB" is not necessarily true, but even if it was the grapple rules weren't invented solely for the PCs to use them, so whether or not individual PCs can be good at grappling is largely irrelevant as to my point.

In any case, if PCs can't be good at grappling it seems even more ridiculous to just say "Congrats, you auto-win all your grapple checks for the next 10 minutes."

Goonthegoof
2010-01-19, 04:41 AM
Additional question: Is there a limit to the number of grappling tentacles I can have, and would they violate a vow of poverty?

Goonthegoof
2010-01-19, 04:57 AM
Additional question: Is there a limit to the number of grappling tentacles I can have, and would they violate a vow of poverty?

Dr.Epic
2010-01-19, 04:58 AM
Doesn't having several arms grant a bonus to grapple? Not sure how you would go about acquiring more limbs.

Goonthegoof
2010-01-19, 05:06 AM
Spent most of the thread talking about sowing appendages on. Grappling tentacle, FF somewhere near the back. Now, anyone know if scorpion's grasp works for natural weapons?

Amphetryon
2010-01-19, 06:55 AM
Doesn't having several arms grant a bonus to grapple? Not sure how you would go about acquiring more limbs.
Illithid Grapple (CompPsi) - can take 4x
Deepspawn (LoM)
Girallon's Blessing (SpC)
Insectile Template (SS)

I know I'm forgetting some. :smallsmile:

Sinfire Titan
2010-01-19, 10:27 AM
10 min/level can easily cover an entire dungeon crawl, while Dim. Door can only get you out of ONE grapple. After you've pulled out what's to stop them from grappling you again? And don't say "I'm flying" because for all you know the opponents you're facing are flying as well.

What's stopping them from grappling me again? The fact that I'm 400ft+40ft/CL away from their asses. DDoor has a long range, so it isn't likely that their going to grapple me in 1 round unless they have Quickened Greater Teleport ready. And, seriously, even the dreaded Balor doesn't have that.

Person_Man
2010-01-19, 10:31 AM
Any way to counter Freedom of Movement?

Have more then one combo. After you've invested 3 feats (Imp Unarmed Strike, Improved Grapple, Scorpion's Grasp) and 1-2 class abilities (a few soulmelds or psionic powers) move on to something else. I would suggest trying to find a good status effect (debuffs, Daze, etc) for boss enemies with Freedom of Movement, and an area of effect attack or karmic strike combo for mooks.


Additional question: Is there a limit to the number of grappling tentacles I can have, and would they violate a vow of poverty?

As I mentioned above, I think it's a poor strategy to put all of your eggs in one basket. Girillion Arms + Mauling Gauntlets + Expansion = d20 + Str +30ish to your Grapple check. Totemist can easily get 6+ natural attacks. If the DM wants to defeat your ability to Grapple, he will. So there's no point in optimizing it further.

But to answer your questions, you can have up to 4 illithid tentacles, at a cost of 5 feats. Not a great cost/benefit ratio.

Similarly, Vow of Poverty is a ripoff. The same amount of money can buy many more benefits, and you get to choose exactly what you want. Also, the VoP benefits are semi-useless for a Totemist, who can already add many enhancement bonuses to his natural attacks, natural armor, damage, etc.


Now, anyone know if scorpion's grasp works for natural weapons?

In order for Scorpion's Grasp to work and for you to get the rest of your attack routine, you need to hit your enemy and initiate the Grapple with an Unarmed Strike. But that's rarely a problem. Even if you need to blow one natural attack to initiate the Grapple, it's not a big deal, it's just less efficient.

lord_khaine
2010-01-19, 11:25 AM
What's stopping them from grappling me again? The fact that I'm 400ft+40ft/CL away from their asses. DDoor has a long range, so it isn't likely that their going to grapple me in 1 round unless they have Quickened Greater Teleport ready. And, seriously, even the dreaded Balor doesn't have that.


In that case you are most likely to far away to contribute to the encounter, and have left your buddies to fight alone.


40 K, and the spell is 10 min/level. And it's not just that spell, it's also stuff like Dim Door, which appears at level 7 as well, and allows you to get free also. Or Heart of Water. Or Travel Domain. Or having a Rogue in the party. And as a PC, you're going up against opponents that are bigger, stronger, and with better BAB than you, so it's really hard to be good at it even without the 'NO' buttons.

fine, it last a little longer and are a bit cheaper than i remember, it still dont last long enough, or are cheap enough to be up all day before very late in the game.

As for Heart of water and Travel domain, yes they are a bit more reliable, but at the same time also more obscure/rare.

Cyclocone
2010-01-19, 11:37 AM
In that case you are most likely to far away to contribute to the encounter, and have left your buddies to fight alone.

Telekinesis, Sleet Storm, the Image line, Horrid Wilting and Fireball all have the same range.

Ofcourse, you could just DD out to medium range and open up even more possibilities.

Tinydwarfman
2010-01-19, 11:46 AM
Ack! stupidly complicated grappling rules!! Now with tentacles!?! (hides until 5th edition)

Sinfire Titan
2010-01-19, 12:04 PM
Telekinesis, Sleet Storm, the Image line, Horrid Wilting and Fireball all have the same range.

Ofcourse, you could just DD out to medium range and open up even more possibilities.

Right. Or just DDoor straight up 500ft, fall 150ft (casting featherfall next round), and then rain down arcane doom upon the unsuspecting fools who are still looking for you.

Draz74
2010-01-19, 12:34 PM
While Psychic Warrior has been mentioned several times, I don't think anyone has mentioned their specific grappling-trick Power, "Grip of Iron." Good bonus to grappling, and it costs a mere 1 PP and has a swift action casting time.

Tome of Battle also has some mediocre grappling tricks that you can stack on, mostly the Wolverine Stance from Tiger Claw. You can pick it up with a feat and either an item, another feat, or a one-level dip.


Since it's gestalt, it might be worth burning three levels in Factotum so you can add your Int to grappling.

Unlike tripping or bull rushing, grappling is not a "strength check" and thus does not benefit from Factotum 3.