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Ichneumon
2010-01-18, 01:05 PM
So, in 3.5e there were all these different ways to get "immortal", as in not having a maximum age. Becoming an elan for example.

I was wondering, what does the fluff offer a 4e character who's afraid to die?:smallamused:

hamishspence
2010-01-18, 01:09 PM
Lots of Epic destinies- though in some the body disappears and while they are immortal, they can't actually affect the world.

In others, they stick around as "members of the celestial courts"- Demigod, Saint, etc.

or even rule a court of their own- Prince of Hell.

Some go into retreat, but are still assumed to be alive somewhere.

Some epic destiny powers are a case of "death has no power over you"- because you automatically self-resurrect, it just takes a short while.

Lappy9000
2010-01-18, 01:12 PM
Does anyone else find it hilarious that the first response to this thread was from the guy with the marut avatar? :smallbiggrin:

Tanuki Tales
2010-01-18, 01:13 PM
Does anyone else find it hilarious that the first response to this thread was from the guy with the marut avatar? :smallbiggrin:


Beautiful Irony. :smallbiggrin:

hamishspence
2010-01-18, 01:14 PM
I picked it because it looked good (and for the Lawfulness) not for the "deals with those who cheat death"

Though it is sort of funny. Maybe it's a marut's job to know all the ways people will try and cheat death :smallamused:.

Archpaladin Zousha
2010-01-18, 02:18 PM
But yes, generally speaking all epic destinies grant you some form of immortality. The nature of that immortality generally varies depending on the destiny though. For example:

Destinies like the Immanence, Archspell and Parable cause you to shed your earthly body and transcend to a higher form of conciousness. The immanence basically merges with the universe and is thus everywhere at once. The Archspell becomes a part of their signature spell, present whenever it is cast. The Parable has discovered that everything is an illusion, part of a grand story, and so they transcend this reality to make stories of their own, in short, becoming the DM. :smalltongue:

Others involve transforming into a servitor of a deity. The Chosen, Exalted Angel and Avatar destinies work like this. With the Chosen, you're basically a super-Pope to your church. Your god's right-hand adventurer. With the Exalted Angel, you become a super-angel, capable of going where normal angels can't and disguising yourself as a mortal. The Avatar's a bit different. In this case, you were a particular deity all along, and thus you don't really gain immortality as much as reassume your divine identity.

With other destinies, you just keep on keeping on. Most of the martial epic destinies are like this, such as the Dark Wanderer and Undying Warrior, as well as the Eternal Seeker. It's like Hob Gadling of the Sandman graphic novels. It's not so much that you live forever as much as you refuse to die.

Finally, some destinies cause you to gain a position of power in the Planes. The Prince of Hell, the Storm Sovereign or the Feyliege are just a few, and they turn you into an archdevil, a primordial and a fey respectively.

NEO|Phyte
2010-01-18, 02:22 PM
For those that don't want to wait for Epic to be immortal, Warforged still exist, in all their construct glory. Not sure if there's any other races that offer no max lifespan.

Sipex
2010-01-18, 02:24 PM
On the topic of races there are Deva as well who resurrect after death.

Ichneumon
2010-01-18, 02:27 PM
Warforged, revenants maybe.

Mystic Muse
2010-01-18, 02:41 PM
the Demilich epic destiny maybe? unlike for normal liches you don't have to be evil either.

NPCMook
2010-01-18, 03:02 PM
the Demilich epic destiny maybe? unlike for normal liches you don't have to be evil either.

You mean Archlich, right?

Mystic Muse
2010-01-18, 03:06 PM
You mean Archlich, right?

*facepalm* yes.

DragonBaneDM
2010-01-18, 03:24 PM
Parable's always been a fun one for me.

You're immortal because you realize you're a character in a game of Dungeons and Dragons.

Optimystik
2010-01-18, 03:39 PM
Archspell makes a great campaign hook. A cosmic horror that the party has no hope of defeating comes to destroy the world; their only chance is to assemble the archspell, summoning their previous epic character(s) to battle the thing.

Closak
2010-01-18, 03:43 PM
Pretty sure dragons don't have a maximum age.

And even if they do it would be so ridiculously high that you may as well be immortal, and those several thousand years would be more than enough time to find ways of further extending your life.
Heck, gain enough power and you may even be able to become a God (You have a VERY long time to gather levels)


So...Be a dragon if you wanna be immortal

Mystic Muse
2010-01-18, 03:43 PM
Pretty sure dragons don't have a maximum age.

And even if they do it would be so ridiculously high that you may as well be immortal, and those several thousand years would be more than enough time to find ways of further extending your life.
Heck, gain enough power and you may even be able to become a God.


So...Be a dragon if you wanna be immortal

not allowed in 4e.

You can be a Dragonborn but not a dragon.

Closak
2010-01-18, 03:45 PM
Ah crud, that sucks. :smallfrown:

This is why i don't like 4'th edition :smallannoyed:

Ichneumon
2010-01-18, 03:47 PM
One of the things that I find most annoying is that the lich is level 14, yet characters can only become an archlich at epic level. I understand that the philosophy of 4e is that monsters and characters are vastly different, but still it doesn't make much sense.

Mystic Muse
2010-01-18, 03:51 PM
One of the things that I find most annoying is that the lich is level 14, yet characters can only become an archlich at epic level. I understand that the philosophy of 4e is that monsters and characters are vastly different, but still it doesn't make much sense.

normal Liches become liches through an evil ritual with Orcus the demon prince of undead.

Archliches become Archliches through pure power without association from the demon prince of undead.

Mystic Muse
2010-01-18, 03:52 PM
Ah crud, that sucks. :smallfrown:

This is why i don't like 4'th edition :smallannoyed:

how many DMs actually let you play as a dragon anyway? Or is it just the fact that you have the option?

Closak
2010-01-18, 03:55 PM
I like having the option.

Besides, playing a dragon isn't THAT overpowering when the rest of the party is epic level.
Being a dragon just opens up a lot of fun RP potential that i want to get my hands on.
I don't really care if it makes me lag behind slightly in the power curve.

Theodoric
2010-01-18, 04:00 PM
I like having the option.

Besides, playing a dragon isn't THAT overpowering when the rest of the party is epic level.
Being a dragon just opens up a lot of fun RP potential that i want to get my hands on.
I don't really care if it makes me lag behind slightly in the power curve.
There's an Epic Destiny (Bahamut-themed, I think) that allows you to turn into a dragon, and immortality as well (though at that point, you will probably still be as powerful as the rest of your party).

And Btw, in 4e all dragons except for Mythral and undead ones do have a maximum age. They've even invented ways to become immortal themselves as a result (hollow metallics, dracoliches, etc.)

Yakk
2010-01-18, 04:15 PM
One of the things that I find most annoying is that the lich is level 14, yet characters can only become an archlich at epic level. I understand that the philosophy of 4e is that monsters and characters are vastly different, but still it doesn't make much sense.
Yep -- as mentioned, NPC liches are all the slaves of Orcus, effectively.

PC liches solve the problem of undeath. This takes a few more levels to pull off, but the result is immortality, more power, and no-slaving-yourself-to-a-demon-god-who-wants-to-tear-down-all-of-reality-and-whose-worshippers-pray-they-will-be-eaten-first.

Seems like a perk.

...

As for playing a dragon, there are no core 4e rules for playing a Dragon.

If your DM was game, you could come up with some. Personally, I'd base them off a Barbarian/Sorcerer hybrid, with some reskinning and reworking.

Ie, Barbarian/Sorcerer using a Glaive with Arcane Implement (Heavy Blades), and appropriate use of daily/encounter powers, and lots of refluff, and some other tweaking. Most of the work could be done by the character builder (which is a plus) -- you'd have reach with melee attacks, you'd have multiple "breath weapons", you'd be resistant to certain types of elemental damage, etc.

Possibly start the game off at level 11 or so, to get roughly the right power level to start out.

You wouldn't use the stats of MM dragons, because those are not well paced for a PC.

Evard
2010-01-18, 04:35 PM
Ah crud, that sucks. :smallfrown:

This is why i don't like 4'th edition :smallannoyed:

You can be a dragon, homebrew it in, 4e is simple to homebrew and mess around with the basics.

Heck you could play as a dragon and as your party levels up to specific levels you just take on the next stage of the dragon's life. Don't take character classes or anything just stick with what is in the monster description (although you may have to power down since most dragons are made to take on a group of adventurers). There ya go you are basically immortal and dont have to deal with power swapping and junk lol You can't use the character generator but really all you need is one section out of the MM

Gamerlord
2010-01-18, 04:39 PM
Ah crud, that sucks. :smallfrown:

This is why i don't like 4'th edition :smallannoyed:

Wait,what?
People actually play dragons in 3.5 :smallconfused: ?
Why would anyone want to play such a silly,LA-crazy, creature?
If someone asked to play a dragon in one of my campaigns, I would just laugh at them.

hamishspence
2010-01-18, 04:39 PM
4E Draconomicon (Chromatic Dragons) gives "maximum known ages" for all chromatic dragons- the age at which dragons tend to expire. And explains how (sometimes) the dragon's elemental energy becomes a part of the landscape.

It also has suggested rules for "the twilight" where a dragon's powers decrease slightly.

4E Draconomicon II (Metallic Dragons) has only one that is explicitly immortal- the Mithril Dragon.

Ichneumon
2010-01-18, 04:41 PM
You can be a dragon, homebrew it in, 4e is simple to homebrew and mess around with the basics.

Heck you could play as a dragon and as your party levels up to specific levels you just take on the next stage of the dragon's life. Don't take character classes or anything just stick with what is in the monster description (although you may have to power down since most dragons are made to take on a group of adventurers). There ya go you are basically immortal and dont have to deal with power swapping and junk lol You can't use the character generator but really all you need is one section out of the MM

Wait, can you actually do that? Never thought about using monster stats for players.

Tengu_temp
2010-01-18, 04:52 PM
Wait, can you actually do that? Never thought about using monster stats for players.

By RAW, you can't do that. Monster stats are balanced for things you will encounter once and maybe again some time later, not for a character that's a part of the party and just like the rest of it is on a healing surge, daily power and action point budget. The fact that most dragons are solos doesn't help.

Yakk
2010-01-18, 05:13 PM
But, as I noted, a mixture of Barbarian and Sorcerer powers, by the Paragon tier, makes a pretty good emulation of a young dragon.

Start with a Dragonborn base (+2 Str +2 Cha).
Class: Hybrid Sorcerer | Barbarian.
By level 11, you have 7 feats (up to 2 paragon).
Take Paragon Hybrid as your paragon path.
Hybrid Talent: SOUL OF THE SORCERER (Dragon Soul)
Hybrid Talent: BARBARIAN ARMORED AGILITY

Feats:
Hybrid Talent (one of the above)
True Dragonís Soul
Multiclass Wizard (of whatever kind)
Enlarge Spell
Arcane Implement Proficiency (Heavy Blade)
Focused Expertise (Glaive)
Weapon Focus (Glaive)

Powers:
Howling Strike
Burning Hands

Thundering Roar (Sorc 1)
Tearing Claws (Sorc 1)
Tempest Breath (Sorc 1)
Searing Sands (Sorc 3)
Poisonous Exhalation (Sorcerer Attack 3)
Rimestorm (Sorc 7)
Shout (Sorc 7)

Talk to your DM about flight and large size. I'd claim a level 10 utility power for non-combat flight, and a level 6 utility power for large size, as an example (large size doesn't come with reach or damage upgrades, just you are now 2x2 squares, and get +0.5 HP per level maybe).

The character would have a variety of breath weapons, would have elemental resistances, would have a reach 2 "claw" attack that uses his barbarian attack powers, would be strong and charismatic, etc.

Combat based flying I'd delay until late paragon/early epic, and I would restrict the character (implicitly) to relatively short range close blasts and reach 2 melee attacks.

hamishspence
2010-01-18, 05:14 PM
Metallic Draconomicon does have those rules for downgrading a dragon to an Elite- and an Elite monster is a bit like a PC.

Homebrewing a "dragon class progression" would be a bit of work, but I suspect not horribly so. Hit dice, at-will melee attack, progression in armour, size, damage, etc. Maybe giving it at-will, encounter, and daily powers based on those of the dragons in the book, as it progresses.

Evard
2010-01-18, 05:21 PM
Wait, can you actually do that? Never thought about using monster stats for players.

Yes you can, take a level 1 dragon and play as that until the party reaches the next level that dragon levels up by age. Sure you may be a bit stronger but you won't have all the snazzy character class powers. You substitute features (lots) for pure power and less versatility. Also as a monster you are less likely to want to mess over other characters since you are technically their prey lol

My friend ran a one shot where everyone picked a monster that had a progression and played as monsters... i was told it went over smoothly.

RebelRogue
2010-01-19, 06:10 AM
Wait,what?
People actually play dragons in 3.5 :smallconfused: ?
Why would anyone want to play such a silly,LA-crazy, creature?
If someone asked to play a dragon in one of my campaigns, I would just laugh at them.
No, they don't. It's absolutely a sucky thing to play mechanically, even in non-optimised groups. I've let players do it once and it's not recommendable. Introducing lots of subpar options does not make a game great!

Also - I'm repeating myself here - but I generally really loathe the idea that players have a right to play anything in the MM.

Yakk's idea seems good though, if you insist on being a 4e dragon. Hooray for refluff!

lord_khaine
2010-01-19, 06:19 AM
No, they don't. It's absolutely a sucky thing to play mechanically, even in non-optimised groups. I've let players do it once and it's not recommendable. Introducing lots of subpar options does not make a game great!


How subpar it actualy is are up for discussion, but at the same time, it doesnt make the game BAD! either, and being a dragon is pretty fun.


Also - I'm repeating myself here - but I generally really loathe the idea that players have a right to play anything in the MM.


And at the same time i really like that 3.5 is made in a way where its possible to play a lot of the monsters in the MM, and its one of the core reasons for why i dislike 4E.

RebelRogue
2010-01-19, 06:47 AM
How subpar it actualy is are up for discussion, but at the same time, it doesnt make the game BAD! either, and being a dragon is pretty fun.
Yes, and monks are overpowered too... :smalltongue: It just seemed very bad too me. It was a reasonably low-levelled game, but I really can't see the trend turning at higher levels.


And at the same time i really like that 3.5 is made in a way where its possible to play a lot of the monsters in the MM, and its one of the core reasons for why i dislike 4E.
Different strokes for different folk... Personally, I don't want D&D to turn into a freakshow and some of those rules encouraged exactly that, IMO. I'm not saying the rules for playing monster was all bad, but to me it remains a novelty, not something that is integral to enjoyment of the game.

Yakk
2010-01-19, 10:31 AM
And, as noted, it is only the work of an afternoon to create a 4e character that is large, breaths fire/cold/mist, claws things with abandon, flies, etc.

Heck, do a (no implements or weapons) rule on that character, and boost stats faster, and you even end up with draconic strength/intelligence/constitution and charisma.

The creature wouldn't have the same stats as a 4e dragon in the monster manual, because the 4e MM dragons are designed to confront 5 characters at a time and generate an entertaining combat. They are not designed to engage in an adventuring day, nor are they designed to fight a target 5-on-1.

4e is emulation, not simulation. The dragons stats are a method for the DM to emulate what 5 heros of the appropriate experience would run into when they fought such a beast: PC stats are similar emulations of the heros interacting with the world. In a different context, using the same mechanics for two different imagined things, or different mechanics for the same imagined thing, is perfectly acceptable emulation wise.

I'm emulating a 4e PC-dragon by stealing powers from PC classes, and refluffing them, then doing a bit of homebrew on top. I'm doing it in a way that happens to be quite compatible with the character builder, because I find that amusing and useful and results in polished output easily.

Mando Knight
2010-01-19, 12:39 PM
Another one which results in a ridiculously breath-focused dragon-like PC is to be a Dragonborn Dragon Magic Sorcerer, then take Scion of Arkhosia for the Paragon Path, and Fighter and Eternal Defender for Multiclass and Epic Destiny.

Scion gets you wings, and Eternal Defender makes you function as something bigger. For fluff, your dagger is a bite attack, and your spells are more breath attacks. Leather or hide armor is simply a tougher set of scales.