Help convincing my DM [3.5 D&D]

[Fortuna]

Hey all.

I'm going to be playing in a PbP Gestalt game on these forums, and I am trying to convince my DM that a prestige class is not overpowered so that I can play it. The characters are here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=138773): I want to take the Dynamist (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7594031&postcount=7) prestige class on the Spellthief side while continuing with straight Warblade on the other. The DM has said that it is up to me to prove that it is not overpowered: I need help doing that. Please? Thanks in advance.

[DragoonWraith]

In case you didn't see it, my review/critique of the class is here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7694793&postcount=1142).

I'd personally worry about Enhanced Speed and Speed Burst, though with Warblade rather than, say, Wizard, on the other side, less so.

[Fortuna]

Yes, I saw it, and thanks.

The thing is, there is actually very little synergy going on here until higher levels. I can full attack or use maneuvers, not both.

[ex cathedra]

It's certainly better than most melee prestige classes, with a few notable exceptions. I happen to like it's power level, but I understand if your DM has several martial characters in the party and doesn't want something like this involved. If you're in a party with tier 1 and 2 characters, it's simply a nice boost in power and will probably be for the best. If you're playing with anything below tier 3, it's probably a bit too good.

I would suggest against using the class. Your DM seems to be a bit new, or, at the very least, somewhat unfamiliar with the system. It would be nice of you to stick to official sources, in my opinion.

[Grumman]

If your DM doesn't allow it, would using the Trickster variant Spellthief and going into Swiftblade be an alternative?

[jiriku]

The prestige class still needs some work, but overall I'd agree with you that it's a reasonable prestige class. Much more powerful than most melee prestige classes, but since most melee classes are inferior, that's as it should be.

Here are some arguments you might use to win acceptance of the class.

The Dynamist has basically only two strengths:
a fast land speed
large numbers of very accurate attacks


The Dynamist lacks the means to do any of the following:

fly
cover large (100+ miles) distances quickly
travel the planes
exercise extra-sensory perception, use exotic senses, divine hidden secrets
arbitrarily ignore attacks without having to roll a saving throw
buff party members
heal
remove negative status effects
summon allies or pets
avoid notice through stealth
locate stealthy opponents
alter the attitudes of NPCs or compel specific behaviors from them
bypass physical or magical barriers
create physical or magical barriers
restrict enemy movement
deal damage without an attack roll
defend against enemies with very high attack rolls
harm enemies who can defend against high attack rolls
detect or avoid traps
create objects or tools


Any one of the characters presented by Balford, Rocketman, DuskEclipse, and Isosceles can potentially do 60%-80% of the things on my list. Even with benefits of the dynamist prestige class, your character is going to be the most limited toon in the party. Seriously, I'm tempted to try to talk you out of the dynamist, not because it's overpowered, but because I'm worried that everyone else in the party is going to overshadow you and make you feel irrelevant.

If your DM still isn't convinced, well...go warblade//beguiler/swiftblade/abjurant champion. You'll be glad you did.

[Fortuna]

Argh! He agreed. He told me to just ask if I wanted more power: I asked for more power in the form of the prestige class, and he said yes. Argh!!!!!

That said, thanks for the help.

[Kelb_Panthera]

As a DM I'm gonna say that my gut-reaction to this PrC is "no." High speed and extra attacks are supposed to be the monk's shtick and with an untyped bonus to speed this guy will reach utterly ridiculous levels. Then he get's several extra iterative attacks at no penalty? and near the end can spring attack up to 5 enemies without any other extra attack tricks? This would be vastly overpowered in my games.

But that's my opinion. If you wanna be objective about it, ask yourself, "is this class an obviously better choice than anything else I could pick at this level?" If the answer is "yes" it's probably at least a little overpowered.

Make the speed bonus a non-magical enhancement bonus, and drop the "super spring attack" bit and I'd be willing to consider it.

[ex cathedra]

It's pretty much entirely worse than going Wizard/Psion on that side, and, depending on how it's used, about as powerful as the Factotum, in my opinion, for the purposes of gestalting with a warblade.

[Volos]

You do not need help 'convincing' your DM of anything. If you cannot deal with the choices he/she is going to make for his/her campain, then you don't need to be playing the game at all. If you have presented your point and have been turned down, give up or play somewhere else.

[Touchy]

You do not need help 'convincing' your DM of anything. If you cannot deal with the choices he/she is going to make for his/her campain, then you don't need to be playing the game at all. If you have presented your point and have been turned down, give up or play somewhere else.

It's clear from the second post that the DM is allowing him to try to prove him wrong.

Although this is my understanding from reading nothing other than this page.

[Tyndmyr]

As a DM I'm gonna say that my gut-reaction to this PrC is "no." High speed and extra attacks are supposed to be the monk's shtick and with an untyped bonus to speed this guy will reach utterly ridiculous levels.

Yes. However, high speed and attack volume alone make up a pretty poor shtick, and the monk is generally acknowledged as pretty weak.

There's a char in my current party with a 90ft land speed or something ridiculous(barbarian + persisted haste + other junk I forget). It's amusing, and occasionally useful, but in practical terms, I can dimension door or teleport anywhere faster than he can get there.

[Foryn Gilnith]

If you wanna be objective about it, ask yourself, "is this class an obviously better choice than anything else I could pick at this level?" If the answer is "yes" it's probably at least a little overpowered.

I reject that argument. If all your other options are underpowered, then an option on par with the rest of the party will be obviously better than anything else you can pick. Melee, especially at higher optimization levels, falls behind casting. As aethernox observed, wizard/psion/factotum compete with this PrC, so it's not obviously better anyway.