PDA

View Full Version : (3.5) Freaking PCs Doing Things They Shouldn't...



Deth Muncher
2010-01-18, 07:00 PM
So, here's the deal. One of my PCs is one of those Dragon Elf things from Dragon Magic.

So what did he do? Well, in the middle of the trade district in a town in Eberron, he goes off and sprouts dragon wings, a la some ritual in that book. This obviously causes an uproar, since, y'know, dragons don't play nice with others. I did the easiest thing I could think of to get rid of the problem: I had him Ploteleported off to a dark room where the elves of Valenar are questioning him about what the hell he is and why he has dragon powers. (If you don't remember from other posts of mine, the PCs aren't actually from Eberron, but from the Prime Material.)

So...frick. Just what am I supposed to do? This kind of derailed everything that was supposed to be happening, and now I'm lost. :/

onthetown
2010-01-18, 07:03 PM
Go with the flow and don't railroad your PCs? They'll do anything and everything that messes up your plans.

I guess find a way to get him out of the questioning. They decide he's innocent or something. He can go back to the city as long as he keeps his dragon powers hidden. Things continue as normal.

Myou
2010-01-18, 07:05 PM
He explains that he's not a dragon, they let him go. :smalltongue:

shadow_archmagi
2010-01-18, 07:05 PM
So what did he do? Well, in the middle of the trade district in a town in Eberron, he goes off and sprouts dragon wings, a la some ritual in that book.

It sounds to me like you've made the mistake of allowing players to use material you're not completely familiar with!

Anyway, I'd just have him tell people he's a half-dragon. Or was working under a wizard who was trying to invent a permanent flying spell and things went awry... there are probably a billion reasons why he has dragon wings.

Really, having wings isn't going to really DESTROY anything or derail your entire campaign. (unless you were counting on terrain based obstacles for something?) Just have people shrug it off, since having him constantly be treated wierd by everyone is going to get old fast.

I don't mean to sound judgmental but you overreacted a bit.

Deth Muncher
2010-01-18, 07:19 PM
Go with the flow and don't railroad your PCs? They'll do anything and everything that messes up your plans.

I guess find a way to get him out of the questioning. They decide he's innocent or something. He can go back to the city as long as he keeps his dragon powers hidden. Things continue as normal.

I wasn't necessarily trying to railroad, but I was kinda startled by the fact that he would do something so...er, spectacular as to use a power so strange in the middle of town. Just because it's a fantasy setting doesn't mean people always expect strange things to be happening.


He explains that he's not a dragon, they let him go. :smalltongue:

Point.


It sounds to me like you've made the mistake of allowing players to use material you're not completely familiar with!

Anyway, I'd just have him tell people he's a half-dragon. Or was working under a wizard who was trying to invent a permanent flying spell and things went awry... there are probably a billion reasons why he has dragon wings.

Really, having wings isn't going to really DESTROY anything or derail your entire campaign. (unless you were counting on terrain based obstacles for something?) Just have people shrug it off, since having him constantly be treated wierd by everyone is going to get old fast.

I don't mean to sound judgmental but you overreacted a bit.

I think it's more of a temporary wing thing, not a permanent thing. He said it works like Wildshape, I'm going to investigate now. Because you're right, I've only glanced over that book. I looked at the ritual when he got it, but it's been a good two months since then and I completely forgot what it does.

Thurbane
2010-01-18, 09:10 PM
Go with the flow and don't railroad your PCs?
I wouldn't view the OPs example as railroading - he's just playing the city/NPCs with a realistic reaction to a public PC action...

onthetown
2010-01-18, 09:13 PM
It wasn't mean't as a blatant accusation, it's just the way I took the post... sounded a lot like he was getting on those tracks.

Justin B.
2010-01-18, 09:20 PM
Turn it into a sidequest, the Elves hold an extensive trial, the other PC's are brought in as a part of it. Their actions as a group are now being judged by a high authority. Some of the things they've done might bring suspicion, or they could be judged as good and innocent characters.

Either way, it drives the point home that people notice things, and it will cause your PC's to really examine their own actions, past and present, while providing for a decent roleplaying session or two.

Toliudar
2010-01-18, 09:21 PM
This is the Eberron of entire teams of artificers, magic trains, and dinosaurs, right? Sure, the wings are going to be unusual, perhaps even noteworthy, but seem unlikely to get him burned at the stake. It sounds likely that the wings are going to cause some consternation when he uses them, but that'll fade after the first few times.

Kelb_Panthera
2010-01-18, 09:28 PM
I've always found that the best way to design a plot is to simply create the major characters (PC's not included, of course) including their motivations and plans, and for the truly important characters enough backstory to justify those goals and motivations, and then just have them act naturally from there, both toward each other and toward the PC's. For when the PC's interact with a minor character, I have a batch of generic character archetypes set up, and I usually just wing-it for their personality ie: they go to a local smith to get the dings buffed out of their weapons/ armor, and they decide to chat him up for a while, or the party face decides he'd like to role-play a meeting with a contact while he gathers info. Usually just Experts, Aristocrats, Adepts, and Mage-Wrights, with the occasionally PC classed character if the situation demands it. It probably doesn't hurt that I've developed an uncanny knack for anticipating my players though :smalltongue:

Jimp
2010-01-18, 09:34 PM
People of the city don't like half dragony things. Guards/adventurers attack PC. PC may or may not survive. Actions have consequences.
For a nicer approach, have the guys question him and release him with a stern warning and go back to whatever quest they were on/

nhbdy
2010-01-18, 09:38 PM
honestly ebberon is supposed to be high magic, so i don't see why wings would be uncommon, i mean wings of flying in sharn must be a popular passtime for the wealthy

Temotei
2010-01-18, 09:39 PM
Have a dragon come in to mate with the elf and accidentally deal damage every time...:smalleek: Umm...yeah.

Have a dragon come in to mate with the elf, and fail to see enough dragon in the elf, so the dragon gets angry.

nhbdy
2010-01-18, 09:40 PM
Have a dragon come in to mate with the elf and accidentally deal damage every time...:smalleek: Umm...yeah.

Have a dragon come in to mate with the elf, and fail to see enough dragon in the elf, so the dragon gets angry.

... spouse beatings!?!?!? :smalleek:

shadow_archmagi
2010-01-18, 09:44 PM
This is the Eberron of entire teams of artificers, magic trains, and dinosaurs, right? Sure, the wings are going to be unusual, perhaps even noteworthy, but seem unlikely to get him burned at the stake. It sounds likely that the wings are going to cause some consternation when he uses them, but that'll fade after the first few times.

This.

In the games that I run, players and NPCs alike tend to react sort of like stoners. They'll say "Like, whoa man! That's some craaaazy glowing you have there." but not really react significantly.

Jarrick
2010-01-18, 10:41 PM
See now, your first mistake was letting someone use the dragon magic book at all. Next to Complete psionic, it has got to be the worst sourcebook I've ever seen.

Your second mistake was using dragon magic in eberron. While this isn't inherently a problem, it must be used carefully. Dragons in eberron aren't like dragons elsewhere. They care more about social reform and following the prophesy than plundering villages and the like and are thus much harder to find and befriend than in other settings. So unless the char is from the seren islands or a follower of the prophesy, it probably wouldn't be a dragon mage.

But that's just my opinion. I like a certain continuity among my fellows, not PCs who pop out of nowhere with powers they can't explain ooc and no support for their background story. Granted I'm ignoring the fact that they came from some other campaign setting, but that's another issue entirely.

Wow, did that sound really anal? It must be getting late. Sorry. I don't mean to sound rude, but that member of your group reminds me of some members of my group. They never feel like their chars belong, so they switch chars every other session and hurt the continuity of the whole party. This is primarily because they build stat blocks rather than characters.

Deth Muncher
2010-01-18, 11:51 PM
See now, your first mistake was letting someone use the dragon magic book at all. Next to Complete psionic, it has got to be the worst sourcebook I've ever seen.

Your second mistake was using dragon magic in eberron. While this isn't inherently a problem, it must be used carefully. Dragons in eberron aren't like dragons elsewhere. They care more about social reform and following the prophesy than plundering villages and the like and are thus much harder to find and befriend than in other settings. So unless the char is from the seren islands or a follower of the prophesy, it probably wouldn't be a dragon mage.

But that's just my opinion. I like a certain continuity among my fellows, not PCs who pop out of nowhere with powers they can't explain ooc and no support for their background story. Granted I'm ignoring the fact that they came from some other campaign setting, but that's another issue entirely.

Wow, did that sound really anal? It must be getting late. Sorry. I don't mean to sound rude, but that member of your group reminds me of some members of my group. They never feel like their chars belong, so they switch chars every other session and hurt the continuity of the whole party. This is primarily because they build stat blocks rather than characters.

Yeah, see, it's kinda that. They started out in the Prime Material, and they got shifted to Eberron. They'll hit the Forgotten Realms too. In a nutshell (for those who haven't been keeping up with my threads over the past few months), the PCs are basically playing an adventure of Xaiolin Showdown, except that instead of the hilarious Jack Spicer as an enemy, they have an ages old Drow Sorceror who may or may not be a vampire and/or a lich, and need to get as many artifacts as possible before he goes and destroys all of existence forever. So, returning back to what I bolded, yeah, he's not supposed to have dragon powers in Eberron, which is why I had the elves kidnap him. They'd obviously be suspicious of someone having dragon power, since, y'know, dragons are kind of jerkbags.

The PC, however, told the elves that he's A-not from this plane and B-is looking for a drow sorceror. So I dunno, might even have them help him out or something.

Fishy
2010-01-19, 12:04 AM
For those of you unfamiliar with the details of the Eberron Setting, Dragons are essentially Cthulu. They spend their time contemplating cosmic mysteries and the Draconic Prophesy, and when they do interact with the real world, it's generally because they are destroying a continent with epic magic.

The first and last time the Dragons ever encountered a Half-Dragon, they decided she was an abomination, annihilated her entire family, and erased the incident from history.

So... don't tell people you're a half-dragon.

Jarrick
2010-01-19, 12:08 AM
Ah, touche'. That makes a little more sense.

Kelb_Panthera
2010-01-19, 01:23 AM
Hopping between material planes, eh? You're treading near dangerous water, my friend. If you don't listen to anything else anyone says about D&D ever, heed this advice: NEVER, EVER ALLOW TIME-TRAVEL TO BECOME INVOLVED IN YOUR GAME. No, not even then. It's nothing but trouble, especially if one of your players manages to set-up a grandfather paradox.

Yukitsu
2010-01-19, 01:27 AM
I did something like that and it seemed to all work out well enough in the end. The grandfather paradox thing that is.

Time traveling enemy: "Ha! I'm went back in time and am your father!"
Me: "Ha-Hah! I went back in time and am both your father and your mother! And I switched the baby with your real kid and myself when I was born!"
Time traveling enemy: "Wait, you're what?"

Narazil
2010-01-19, 01:41 AM
Hopping between material planes, eh? You're treading near dangerous water, my friend. If you don't listen to anything else anyone says about D&D ever, heed this advice: NEVER, EVER ALLOW TIME-TRAVEL TO BECOME INVOLVED IN YOUR GAME. No, not even then. It's nothing but trouble, especially if one of your players manages to set-up a grandfather paradox.
Wait, he mentioned time travel? I thought I only saw Spelljamming 'cross the universe.

deuxhero
2010-01-19, 01:44 AM
I don't see what the PC did wrong (Unless there is someway in character he would have known that showing the wings off was a bad idea)

dyslexicfaser
2010-01-19, 01:47 AM
I did something like that and it seemed to all work out well enough in the end. The grandfather paradox thing that is.

Time traveling enemy: "Ha! I'm went back in time and am your father!"
Me: "Ha-Hah! I went back in time and am both your father and your mother! And I switched the baby with your real kid and myself when I was born!"
Time traveling enemy: "Wait, you're what?"

*Immediately started thinking about how being both father and mother to someone would work in D&D*

EDIT: Anyway, you might get some interesting hooks that way. There're the elves who hate dragons, but then have some followers of the Prophecy break in and bust him out, maybe. Have the PCs cause a massive free-for-all with everyone trying to possess the out-of-towners for a perceived advantage or to kill them all to maintain the status quo.

GAThraawn
2010-01-19, 02:01 AM
I did something like that and it seemed to all work out well enough in the end. The grandfather paradox thing that is.

Time traveling enemy: "Ha! I'm went back in time and am your father!"
Me: "Ha-Hah! I went back in time and am both your father and your mother! And I switched the baby with your real kid and myself when I was born!"
Time traveling enemy: "Wait, you're what?"

I see what you did there.

Godskook
2010-01-19, 02:30 AM
From what I can tell, polymorph is at least as common in Eberon as skateboarding is in USA(Almost all statted NPCS I can find in ECS are ~7th level or above and most organizations seem to have 4-6th level followers as a minimum). This leads me to think that the NPCs of Eberon should be rather non-chalant about witnessing something that's got more in common with polymorph than it does actual dragons(hint: dragons aren't typically medium sized in dragon form). I'm going with Toliudar on this one.

ZeroNumerous
2010-01-19, 02:37 AM
About Eberron:

Dragons in Eberron only show up when they come to destroy something(the giant civilization) or when someone screws up so badly that they need to be beaten down by 50 great wyrms. As such, people in Eberron are terrified of dragons, because most dragons don't give a flip one way or another about the younger races when they show up. Further, the actual dragons themselves have a very hardline "no-halfies ever at all" policy and generally destroy any half-dragons they find, plus the family of half-dragons or anyone who looks vaguely similar to the halfie. Naturally, all humans look alike to dragons so... Yeah.

Kelb_Panthera
2010-01-19, 07:06 AM
Wait, he mentioned time travel? I thought I only saw Spelljamming 'cross the universe.

He didn't actually mention time-travel, but since the only way I know of to get from one material plane to another is through the deep shadow section of the shadow-plane, and the rules for that are in the same book as the temporal plane (Manual of the Planes,) I thought it might be a good idea to give him a preemptive warning. Time travel never makes anything better (except comedy, see Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventures.) Even though my one of my favorite novel trilogies, Dragonlance's Legends Trilogy, had time-travel as a major plot-point, I still immediately get a little twitch in my eye whenever time-travel comes up.

kamikasei
2010-01-19, 07:19 AM
*Immediately started thinking about how being both father and mother to someone would work in D&D*

A Changeling could do it. Possibly without even any time travel. Why a Changeling would do it is another question...

OP: I'm not sure telling people "I'm actually not from this multiverse at all" is going to make them less interested in him. Eberron has an unusual planar cosmology and I would expect the likeliest reaction to "unknown entity with strange abilities saying it's from another plane outside our own" would be "AAARGH XORIAT SPAWN BLHHDHGHGH".

Honestly I'd be inclined to roll things back a bit, saying you overreacted, and just have people go "man what a freaky spell that was you cast!".

Tyndmyr
2010-01-19, 07:26 AM
Belt of gender change and either a simulacrum or quintessence should take care of the how. Try not to think about the how in too much detail.

The why now...I dunno.

shadow_archmagi
2010-01-19, 08:16 AM
NEVER, EVER ALLOW TIME-TRAVEL TO BECOME INVOLVED IN YOUR GAME.

I played in a game where there was no time travel once.

It was really boring, so I decided to let it in halfway and only let the players travel forward in time, and at a fairly fixed rate.

bosssmiley
2010-01-19, 08:30 AM
So...frick. Just what am I supposed to do? This kind of derailed everything that was supposed to be happening, and now I'm lost. :/

This is where you show your chops as a proper DM. True DMs expect derailments to emerge from the antics of the living Chaos Engines we call players, and improvise (not 'plan') accordingly. :smallwink:

Of what use is Mr Dragon Elf to the Valley Elves? Do they think he's another Vol? Do they want to use him in some scheme of their own?

The player has just given you carte blanche to do whatever you want to the emergent plot of your game. You can throw in any and all complications, ancient conspiracies, weird prophecies or whatnot that you like. Utilize this.

Deth Muncher
2010-01-19, 09:22 AM
Pardon the lack of quote tags, but there's quite a few people and things to respond to.

Re: Time Travel - Thought about it, but a lot of the players are Dr. Who fans, which I've never seen. I could only expect them to quest only for blue police boxes, and scream TARDIIIIIIIIIIIIS at the top of their lungs. Plus, the aforementioned grandfather-clause.

Re: How to Become Your Own Grandparents - You're all horrible people. You should come with brain bleach for everyone as a common courtesy.

Re: Dragons - So yeah. They're basically giant destruction engines. Actually...Eberron's dragons remind me of a certain people of which I am a member...(I'll give you a hint: In most games, I think of Draconic as Latin. In this one? I think of it as Hebrew.) Point being though, generally things that look like dragons and fly like dragons are accepted as dragons, which can't be good for the lowly people of Eberron. The Cthulu reference is apt enough: Big winged things that for reasons unknown to you, come and eat you. (1d4 Investigators per round, anyone?)

Re: My PC - I'm torn. I COULD just roll it back (thus introducing TIME TRAVEL!?!?!?!?!) and say "Yeah, I overreacted, you don't get kidnapped by elves." BUT, as was mentioned, this DOES give me the chance to do some plot retweaking and...stuff. I dunno, I'll think more after classes today.

Kitsap Charles
2010-01-19, 11:07 AM
*Immediately started thinking about how being both father and mother to someone would work in D&D*

For background, read All You Zombies (http://ieng9.ucsd.edu/~mfedder/zombies.html), by Robert A. Heinlein.

Deth Muncher
2010-01-19, 11:24 AM
For background, read All You Zombies (http://ieng9.ucsd.edu/~mfedder/zombies.html), by Robert A. Heinlein.

O_o That hurt my brain so hard.

Daefos
2010-01-19, 12:20 PM
Re: My PC - I'm torn. I COULD just roll it back (thus introducing TIME TRAVEL!?!?!?!?!)

No, it introduces "The DM screwed up, so we'll pretend that never happened".

Zaydos
2010-01-19, 12:27 PM
For background, read All You Zombies (http://ieng9.ucsd.edu/~mfedder/zombies.html), by Robert A. Heinlein.

I was going to suggest that, but you my man did much better than I ever could (an actual link). I still don't quite get who the zombies are/what makes them zombies, but it does teach you how to be your own father and mother fairly well.

Deth Muncher
2010-01-19, 02:51 PM
No, it introduces "The DM screwed up, so we'll pretend that never happened".

Hell, if I was the first person to ever introduce that into a campaign, I'd feel pretty darn special.


I was going to suggest that, but you my man did much better than I ever could (an actual link). I still don't quite get who the zombies are/what makes them zombies, but it does teach you how to be your own father and mother fairly well.

I think it's a bit of British slang, if my lit-senses are working.

dyslexicfaser
2010-01-19, 03:37 PM
Belt of gender change and either a simulacrum or quintessence should take care of the how. Try not to think about the how in too much detail.

The why now...I dunno.

Oh, I know this one! Well, when a person loves themself very much, and has access to magic...


For background, read All You Zombies (http://ieng9.ucsd.edu/~mfedder/zombies.html), by Robert A. Heinlein.

... Wow.

Muad'dib
2010-01-19, 04:29 PM
For background, read All You Zombies (http://ieng9.ucsd.edu/~mfedder/zombies.html), by Robert A. Heinlein.

How to clone yourself using a time machine 101.

shadow_archmagi
2010-01-19, 04:43 PM
How to clone yourself using a time machine 101.

Technically, reproducing with a past version of yourself shouldn't produce a clone, since although yes, the child will inherit from both parents, there is still a degree of variation.

Think of those squares.

If you have a gene we'll call BA, and you mate with yourself (BA) then the child could end up with BB, BA, or AA.

Kitsap Charles
2010-01-19, 05:32 PM
I still don't quite get who the zombies are/what makes them zombies, but it does teach you how to be your own father and mother fairly well.

The protagonist not only sired himself but also gave birth to himself, so he knows where he came from. Everybody else...? Maybe they're "real", maybe they're figments of his imagination, maybe... who knows? "Zombies."

Kelb_Panthera
2010-01-19, 11:46 PM
@shadow_archmagi and Deth Muncher, :smallamused: You both know what I mean, and I bet you both get why it's really good advice.

Yukitsu
2010-01-20, 12:44 AM
Speaking of things you shouldn't do...

Yourself apparantly is high up on the list. :smallbiggrin:

The Deej
2010-01-21, 09:58 PM
How to clone yourself using a time machine 101.

More like how be your own temporal paradox. You are your own parents. You have no grandparents, therefore, no ancestry. You have no reason to exist, but you do anyway.

Deth Muncher
2010-01-22, 12:02 AM
For the record, I told the PCs that I rewound the time stream right to the point where he uses his wing-sprouting ability. What I'll do next session is let Mr. Drelf look around for a bit, then have him be reprimanded by the captain of the guard, and have the story of dragons be revealed to the PCs.

magic9mushroom
2010-01-22, 03:55 AM
More like how be your own temporal paradox. You are your own parents. You have no grandparents, therefore, no ancestry. You have no reason to exist, but you do anyway.

Not a paradox, a stable loop. A paradox would be if you then went back and stopped that.

Zen Master
2010-01-22, 03:59 AM
This is the Eberron of entire teams of artificers, magic trains, and dinosaurs, right? Sure, the wings are going to be unusual, perhaps even noteworthy, but seem unlikely to get him burned at the stake. It sounds likely that the wings are going to cause some consternation when he uses them, but that'll fade after the first few times.

That's a matter of opinion.

My view of Eberron is that yes - any mage worth his robes has some sort of magical guardian, be it an undead, a golem, or a summoned whatever.

On the other hand, Eberron is also the place where authorities have needed to devise plans for controlling the wanton use of magic in public places. Because even in Eberron, most normal people are normal people. A rough estimate - in my personal game world and with not even a glance at the DMG - is that 99% of everyone is classless. And will die instantly from even the weakest damage spells.

So naturally - someone somewhere is keeping tabs on things, and making sure his subjects don't get friend in the markedplace by random fireballs.

You can compare mages to terrorists, if you like.