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View Full Version : Thoughts on Boomerang Daze? [3.5]



Zaq
2010-01-18, 09:56 PM
So, I've seen Boomerang Daze (Races of Eberron) before, but I've never really thought about it. For some reason, though, it's stuck in my brain, and I'm not sure how I feel about it.

On the one hand, it's pretty damn powerful, given that it's relatively easy to make the saving throw "pray for 20" if you really care. (It's hard with thrown weapons, sure, since you can't really benefit from Power Attack without Bloodstorm Blade and you can't really load up on magical enchantments because that gets prohibitively expensive... but it can still be done, especially if you get some sneak attack in the mix). Daze is one of the nastiest effects in 3.5 simply due to the fact that damn near nothing is immune to it (oh, the hoops that wizards jump through to use Celerity with impunity... do you think that anyone else is going to be doing that? Seems like a stretch to me...).

On the other hand, it is a Nice Thing for fightin'-man types. Fightin'-man types deserve Nice Things, especially if they invest in this so heavily (since you need a feat for proficiency, a feat for Daze, and then whatever investment you need to make your damage worthwhile. This doesn't come cheap, which is why you don't hear about it often. Oh, and they still have to actually hit without the benefit of a properly magicked-up weapon (they're not ammo, so you have to enchant each one separately, and they only return to your hand if you miss, not if you hit). So it's not without its limiting factors.

Still, though. Daze, that with a little investment may as well be no-save. That seems pretty intense. (Aptitude weapons, as usual, are problematic, but that's not Boomerang Daze's fault.) Still, though, it's a Nice Thing.

What does everyone else think of it?

(I suppose I should mention that this is in a vacuum. I'm not planning on making a character who uses it, nor is anyone in my group. I'm just interested and conflicted.)

Gralamin
2010-01-18, 10:02 PM
So, I've seen Boomerang Daze (Races of Eberron) before, but I've never really thought about it. For some reason, though, it's stuck in my brain, and I'm not sure how I feel about it.

On the one hand, it's pretty damn powerful, given that it's relatively easy to make the saving throw "pray for 20" if you really care. (It's hard with thrown weapons, sure, since you can't really benefit from Power Attack without Bloodstorm Blade and you can't really load up on magical enchantments because that gets prohibitively expensive... but it can still be done, especially if you get some sneak attack in the mix). Daze is one of the nastiest effects in 3.5 simply due to the fact that damn near nothing is immune to it (oh, the hoops that wizards jump through to use Celerity with impunity... do you think that anyone else is going to be doing that? Seems like a stretch to me...).

On the other hand, it is a Nice Thing for fightin'-man types. Fightin'-man types deserve Nice Things, especially if they invest in this so heavily (since you need a feat for proficiency, a feat for Daze, and then whatever investment you need to make your damage worthwhile. This doesn't come cheap, which is why you don't hear about it often. Oh, and they still have to actually hit without the benefit of a properly magicked-up weapon (they're not ammo, so you have to enchant each one separately, and they only return to your hand if you miss, not if you hit). So it's not without its limiting factors.

Still, though. Daze, that with a little investment may as well be no-save. That seems pretty intense. (Aptitude weapons, as usual, are problematic, but that's not Boomerang Daze's fault.) Still, though, it's a Nice Thing.

What does everyone else think of it?

(I suppose I should mention that this is in a vacuum. I'm not planning on making a character who uses it, nor is anyone in my group. I'm just interested and conflicted.)

I hope people who play in my RL games don't see this thread >_>. I was planning on using it in a build.

Its a very very good feat. Laughably good, daze enemies, grab Boomerang Ricochet to daze more enemies. Since its easy to get a 95% hit rate in 3.5, its easy to make it so its a non-save every round, pretty much.

ex cathedra
2010-01-18, 10:13 PM
The require weapons are considered Martial if your character is from the associated area. For example, you could have a Talenta Halfling, iirc, and get free proficiency.

Also, aptitude weapons. This feat is good.

Zaq
2010-01-18, 10:20 PM
The require weapons are considered Martial if your character is from the associated area. For example, you could have a Talenta Halfling, iirc, and get free proficiency.

Also, aptitude weapons. This feat is good.

The feat's quite good. That much is obvious. The question is, is it good in the right way? Martial characters need to have new tricks, and this is very definitely a new trick, but is it too much so? I'm loathe to deny anything to the poor beleaguered martial types because it "looks too good," but at first glance, this makes me a little wary.

Again, this is all just theoretical, so it's not like I need to make a decision or anything, but it's grabbed my attention for now.

ex cathedra
2010-01-18, 10:40 PM
You're dishing out the most powerful status ailment (all things considered), every round, with no expended resources, against multiple foes. Is it wizard casting? No. Is it better than most martial options, ubercharging aside? Quite easily, for the most part. And, considering that Bloodstorm Blade effectively lets you do PA shenanigans with it, anyways... yeah. I think that it's just a bit too good.

Person_Man
2010-01-19, 10:43 AM
I think that being able to completely incapacitate 2-6 enemies per round is just too powerful for a standard campaign. I would avoid using the feat unless everyone is playing Tier 1-2 builds.

Deth Muncher
2010-01-19, 11:09 AM
I think that being able to completely incapacitate 2-6 enemies per round is just too powerful for a standard campaign. I would avoid using the feat unless everyone is playing Tier 1-2 builds.

While I agree, I believe it should be used as Person Man said OR in cases of dire emergency: say the DM threw something at you you thought you could handle, but it was actually a bit OP for your team. Throw in some Boomerang Daze to tip the scales back in your favor.

Or, y'know, be a nice guy and give yourself a cooldown. Only use it every d4 rounds, if you like.

Zeta Kai
2010-01-19, 11:20 AM
...the most powerful status ailment (all things considered)...

I would argue that point, if I may. Daze is not the most powerful condition. Paralyzed, Petrified, or Dead would be, IMO. Daze is good, but not great. IIRC its mind-affecting, which menas that half of your opponents are immune to it, for one thing.

Cyclocone
2010-01-19, 11:26 AM
I would argue that point, if I may. Daze is not the most powerful condition. Paralyzed, Petrified, or Dead would be, IMO. Daze is good, but not great. IIRC its mind-affecting, which menas that half of your opponents are immune to it, for one thing.

No, the dazed condition is not mind-affecting, nor are indead immune to it.

Adumbration
2010-01-19, 12:06 PM
No, the dazed condition is not mind-affecting, nor are indead immune to it.

Precisely. The only thing that can stop daze, really, is a specific immunity - rare - or that obscure feat from Lords of Madness, which requires a feat and still costs you immediate actions and attacks of opportunity.

Glimbur
2010-01-19, 12:10 PM
I would argue that point, if I may. Daze is not the most powerful condition. Paralyzed, Petrified, or Dead would be, IMO. Daze is good, but not great. IIRC its mind-affecting, which menas that half of your opponents are immune to it, for one thing.

Sure, Dead is worse than Dazed, but Dazed is much easier to inflict in this case and since you can chain it round to round, you can make them dead eventually.

Sinfire Titan
2010-01-19, 12:16 PM
Sure, Dead is worse than Dazed, but Dazed is much easier to inflict in this case and since you can chain it round to round, you can make them dead eventually.

Dead sucks. You can still take actions while dead.

ex cathedra
2010-01-19, 12:28 PM
I would argue that point, if I may. Daze is not the most powerful condition. Paralyzed, Petrified, or Dead would be, IMO. Daze is good, but not great. IIRC its mind-affecting, which menas that half of your opponents are immune to it, for one thing.

Daze isn't technically more powerful than those, admittedly, but those are all much easier to protect against. As has been pointed out, Daze Immunity is really quite rare; one spell and one feat come to mind. Couple that with how easy it is to make Boomerang Daze's DC skyrocket... yeah.