Vampires and Twilight Vampires

[Temotei]

Why did I separate them? Because I believe they are separate. This isn't a hate thread on Twilight vampires. Quite the opposite. It's for academic purposes.

I want the biggest list of similarities and differences we can compile.

So far:
{table=head]Object of Observation|Vampires|Twilight Vampires
Sun|Death, weakening|Sparkle
Clothing|Usually capes, old|Go with the flow
Dwellings|Castles, sometimes mansions with extra thunder and lightning, graves, crypts|Common households
Teeth|Fangs|Sharp, but not quite fangs
Forms|Bat, wolf/wolfman, gaseous, vampire|Twilight vampire
Mirrors|Don't show|As human
Nocturnal|Yes|No need to sleep
Stake-death|Yes|No
Garlic|Repulsed|No effect, other than perhaps the taste or smell repelling them
Holy symbol|Repelled when wielded with fervor|No effect
Undead|Yes|Yes
Blood|Need|Want
Neckbite|Conversion/death|Conversion
Water|Sometimes can't cross running water|No effect
Accent|Cliché|Depends on their nationality
Torn apart and burned|Probably death|Death
Eyes|Depends--usually as human|Turn red when hungry/thirsty for blood
Strength|Super-strong|Super-strong
Charisma|Great speakers/lookers|Attractive
Society|Shun|Blend
Speed|Fast because of strength, infinite energy, and bat form|Super-fast
Silver bullets|Possible harm|Pain
Churches/Cathedrals|Can't enter|No effect
Other dwellings|Can't enter without permission|No effect
Family|Must kill before freed|Usually dead
Buried|Can only exist within a certain radius of soil|Crawl back up
Grains|Must count|No effect
Coffins|Yes|Probably not
Shadows|Often, no|Yes
Skin|Most often, pale|Pale
Decapitation|Fatal|Not fatal, although great pain can be inflicted
Drowning|Fatal|Not fatal
Fire|Fatal|Fatal
Immortality|Yes|Yes
Gaze|Piercing, enthralling|Creepy
Mind Reading|Not without blood connection|Yes
[/table]

Anything you can add to the list would be nice to have. Please keep away from bashing.

[Eldan]

Which vampires are you going from? Those from any number of dozens of different legends, which don't have much in common? Dracula? Some other movie? Vampire: the Masquerade? Those from Buffy?

The problem with vampires is that, even before Twilight came along, and even before they became pop culture icons, people couldn't really agree on what they could or could not do. There are just as many vampires pretending to be normal (or very rich) society members as there are vampires who are just vicious predators operating from a shallow grave on a boneyard somewhere.

Anyhow, other powers and weaknesses I've heard about:

If given grains of rice, or a handful of salt, they can't leave their coffin until they've counted the grains.
They can only exist within a certain distance of the soil they were burried in.
They can assume the form of a wolf, or wolf-human hybrid.
They have to kill all their surviving family members first, before they are free.
They can turn into mist to enter people's houses.
They can't enter houses without being invited.
They can't enter churches.
Silver bullets can hurt a vampire.

[RabbitHoleLost]

I was going to say much the same thing Eldan did.
Anne Rice's vampires, for instance, are no repulsed by garlic or holy symbols, don't die when staked, aren't stopped by running water, sleep where ever they like, etc.

[Temotei]

Any vampires in literature older than thirty years, I'd say, would be a good place to start.

Bram Stoker's Dracula would be awesome. I have yet to read it and can't find a copy.

[Eldan]

Actually, on the silver bullet thing:
I'm not sure where it comes from... I only remember it from the Hellsing Anime, and that might not be the most accurate source on older myths.

[Temotei]

Actually, on the silver bullet thing:
I'm not sure where it comes from... I only remember it from the Hellsing Anime, and that might not be the most accurate source on older myths.

I've added all.

The silver bullet entry shows ambiguity.

Thanks much. :smallsmile: Anything more would be great.

[Eldan]

For homes, I'd add grave/crypt. Those seem quite common.

[Temotei]

For homes, I'd add grave/crypt. Those seem quite common.

Done. Also added coffins as a separate entry.

[Serenity]

That said, whichever vampire mythos you choose to compare to, Twilight vampires are excessively far removed from it. They drink blood and live forever--and that's about it. Changing the vampire 'rules' for your particular story is well-established, true--but Stephanie Meyer chose to throw out roughly every vampire rule she came across, particularly anything that could be called a weakness. And death, or at least depowerment under the sun is nigh-unto-universal, and she very specifically throws that one out...and then tries to use the suicide-by-sun trope, even though the sun does jack that's dangerous to vampires...

[Temotei]

That said, whichever vampire mythos you choose to compare to, Twilight vampires are excessively far removed from it. They drink blood and live forever--and that's about it. Changing the vampire 'rules' for your particular story is well-established, true--but Stephanie Meyer chose to throw out roughly every vampire rule she came across, particularly anything that could be called a weakness. And death, or at least depowerment under the sun is nigh-unto-universal, and she very specifically throws that one out...and then tries to use the suicide-by-sun trope, even though the sun does jack that's dangerous to vampires...

I read somewhere that she didn't even know vampire lore until after she wrote Twilight.

Perhaps Wikipedia?

[Prime32]

Actually, on the silver bullet thing:
I'm not sure where it comes from... I only remember it from the Hellsing Anime, and that might not be the most accurate source on older myths.That started with the movies. A lot of stuff on vampires and werewolves comes from the old monster movies.

[The Extinguisher]

Fun fact, Dracula didn't die when exposed to the sun. He barely lost his powers.

This table will be helpful.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tables_of_vampire_traits

[Temotei]

Fun fact, Dracula didn't die when exposed to the sun. He barely lost his powers.

This table will be helpful.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tables_of_vampire_traits

This is awesome. :smallbiggrin:

My name is :thog:, and thog approve

[darkblade]

That started with the movies. A lot of stuff on vampires and werewolves comes from the old monster movies.

The Hammer Horror films were amazing. Back then you didn't have the effects technology or budget to save you if you couldn't write a compelling script or couldn't act and as such those problems that plauge modern cinema weren't present.

[Solaris]

I read somewhere that she didn't even know vampire lore until after she wrote Twilight.

Perhaps Wikipedia?

... How could someone not know vampire lore?

[Temotei]

... How could someone not know vampire lore?

Beats me. She did write Twilight...:smallredface:

[Prime32]

Fun fact, Dracula didn't die when exposed to the sun. He barely lost his powers.

This table will be helpful.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tables_of_vampire_traits
Count Duckula is "alluring"? :smallconfused:

[Eldan]

You don't like chocolate?

Anyway, the inclusion of Chokula in that table is hilarious.

[Temotei]

You don't like chocolate?

Anyway, the inclusion of Chokula in that table is hilarious.

I personally like the section on supernatural powers.


{table=head]Count Chocula|Expiration date printed on box[/table]

Or under non-vampire lovers: "Children as part of this complete breakfast"

[GolemsVoice]

If given grains of rice, or a handful of salt, they can't leave their coffin until they've counted the grains.

This is the most amusing vampire "fact" I've read in a while. Where's that from? And what is the "justification"? (Some) Vampires are repelled by holy symbols, because they are anathema to (the) god(s), but why must they count the rice? It get's even more awkward with salt.

[Eldan]

I have no idea where I have that from, actually. I vaguely remember a legend where the main character escaped a vampire by tossing two handfuls of salt in the vampires coffin...

I'll look it up. It's definitely old, though.

Edit: The http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jiang_Shi on Wiki has it. Perhaps I remembered it from there.

More edits:
A google search found this "Carribean Vampire" (http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread32042/pg1).

[Solaris]

This is the most amusing vampire "fact" I've read in a while. Where's that from? And what is the "justification"? (Some) Vampires are repelled by holy symbols, because they are anathema to (the) god(s), but why must they count the rice? It get's even more awkward with salt.

Little-known fact, the undead have OCD.

[Temotei]

Little-known fact, the undead have OCD.

Every single one of them. Not one exception.

Except for Twilight vampires (not real vampires).

[Nameless]

I was going to say much the same thing Eldan did.
Anne Rice's vampires, for instance, are no repulsed by garlic or holy symbols, don't die when staked, aren't stopped by running water, sleep where ever they like, etc.

Don't they usually sleep in Coffins? :smallconfused: And as far as I remember it doesn't mention anything about whether or not a stake can or can't kill them. But it might be because I have bad memory.

[Croverus]

Don't they usually sleep in Coffins? :smallconfused: And as far as I remember it doesn't mention anything about whether or not a stake can or can't kill them. But it might be because I have bad memory.

It has to do with age. Anne Rice's vampires grew stronger as the centuries passed. Only another vampire could have a chance of staking one. And they could sleep in a bed, the coffin was a personal choice.

[Closet_Skeleton]

Actually, on the silver bullet thing:
I'm not sure where it comes from... I only remember it from the Hellsing Anime, and that might not be the most accurate source on older myths.


That started with the movies. A lot of stuff on vampires and werewolves comes from the old monster movies.

Silver bullets hurting werewolves was invented for the movies, but silver did hurt vampires in pre-movie folklore.


This is the most amusing vampire "fact" I've read in a while. Where's that from? And what is the "justification"? (Some) Vampires are repelled by holy symbols, because they are anathema to (the) god(s), but why must they count the rice? It get's even more awkward with salt.

It's from eastern European myths, but they use poppy seeds instead of rice.

It's just some form of OCD.

As far as I know, there's only one kind of folklore vampire that dies in sunlight like in the movies. It's an african vampire that lives under a certain kind of tree. The trick to killing it is to distract it until dawn. I think it also has no skin.

Folklore vampires are often ghost-like, visiting their relatives in dreams rather than walking around physically and often kill more sheep than humans.

Although the folklore vampire is infectious, people can be bitten by a vampire, live normal lives for years and then become a vampire after death. In other cultures, there are living vampires (strigoi vi) that are basically just evil witches, who become true vampires after death (strigoi mort). Some people are doomed to become vampires without being bitten, due to curses, deformaties like clawed hands or tails or sins such as cannibalism and suicide.

I did a project on vampires when I was 9 years old and sadly I can't find the website I used. It had a lot of good information. :smallfrown:

[Frozen_Feet]

In Bram Stoker's Dracula, it was specified that vampires have to "sleep in the sacred soil of their homeland". The title character found a way around by transporting crates of soil to England.

EDIT: And in some bits of folklore, if you killed and buried a werewolf, it would return as a vampire. That's why lycanthropes were to be burned.

[GolemsVoice]

What about vampire pregnancies? Most pregnancies of the night I've heard of end up either killing a) the mother, while the child is a soulless abomination, b) the child, resulting in an ugly miscarriage or c) both.
I've heard that if a recently turned man (whose semen is still "potent" and has not yet died) can impregnate a living woman, and the resulting child is a half-vampire dhampyr.

[Kiren]

A little late but

The Silver Bullet is to repel Were-wolves.

[Frozen_Feet]

Actually, silver was once considered purest of metals, and anathema to all evil. Why mirrors didn't reflect vampires? Because the actual source of the reflection was silver!

[Closet_Skeleton]

In Bram Stoker's Dracula, it was specified that vampires have to "sleep in the sacred soil of their homeland". The title character found a way around by transporting crates of soil to England.

Stoker goes into more detail than that. Vampires have to sleep in ground made holy by human self-sacrifice, eg Dracula's homeland were millions died defending Europe from the Turks. Somehow the ground can then be made more holy by blessing it, which makes it useless to the vampire. So vampires like soil that is holy but not too holy.


What about vampire pregnancies? Most pregnancies of the night I've heard of end up either killing a) the mother, while the child is a soulless abomination, b) the child, resulting in an ugly miscarriage or c) both.
I've heard that if a recently turned man (whose semen is still "potent" and has not yet died) can impregnate a living woman, and the resulting child is a half-vampire dhampyr.

Folklore doesn't follow modern common sense, so the idea that a dead person can't father a child isn't considered at all. If a folklore vampire has sex, they can get pregnant. Sometimes a dhampir is the child of a vampire, sometimes just the child of a vampire's widow. Folklore dhampir can detect vampires and fight vampires, but don't have superhuman abilities and may have weaknesses such as having poor bone structure.

[Eldan]

Oh, interesting. I didn't think of that.
They would then, technically, still have a reflection in other reflective surfaces?

[Temotei]

Oh, interesting. I didn't think of that.
They would then, technically, still have a reflection in other reflective surfaces?

Indeed...interesting. :smallamused:

[Frozen_Feet]

This is also the suggested reason why ghosts and vampires couldn't be caught on film... because early films used silver nitrade for developing the pictures.

And logically, this would mean that a vampire would be reflected in, say, water. But folklore kinda has its own logic...

[Prime32]

{table=head]Object of Observation|Vampires|Twilight Vampires|Darren Shan Vampires
Sun|Death, weakening|Sparkle|Rapid sunburn eventually leading to death
Clothing|Usually capes, old|Go with the flow|Varies - older vampires seem to prefer dramatic clothing among themselves, but in public they try not to stick out
Dwellings|Castles, sometimes mansions with extra thunder and lightning, graves, crypts|Common households|Nomadic or the cave systems of their capital Vampire Mountain
Teeth|Fangs|Sharp, but not quite fangs|Super-tough teeth and nails, but no fangs
Forms|Bat, wolf/wolfman, gaseous, vampire|Twilight vampire|Klingon Darren Shan Vampire
Mirrors|Don't show|As human|As human, but appear as blurry shapes on film
Nocturnal|Yes|No need to sleep|Yes, though they can travel at day for short periods if necessary if they cover up or it's particularly cloudy
Stake-death|Yes|No|Yes, but more resistant to stabbing than normal humans
Garlic|Repulsed|No effect, other than perhaps the taste or smell repelling them|No effect, though it has a minor presence in their religion's claimed sure-fire method of trapping a soul on earth
Holy symbol|Repelled when wielded with fervor|No effect|No effect
Undead|Yes|Yes|No
Blood|Need|Want|Need in addition to normal food
Neckbite|Conversion/death|Conversion|Do not bite (make cuts with nails instead), Vampire: blood loss is too small to kill, Vampanese subrace: death and some memories are absorbed
Water|Sometimes can't cross running water|No effect|No effect, but believe that dying in running water traps peoples' souls
Accent|Cliché|Depends on their nationality|Depends on their nationality
Torn apart and burned|Probably death|Death|Death
Eyes|Depends--usually as human|Turn red when hungry/thirsty for blood|Vampire: As human, Vampanese: red due to higher blood consumption
Strength|Super-strong|Super-strong|Super-strong
Charisma|Great speakers/lookers|Attractive|As human, but tend to become rather distant
Society|Shun|Blend|Depends on age, have a complex society of their own
Speed|Fast because of strength, infinite energy, and bat form|Super-fast|Super-fast, full-vampires have an additional "warp drive" power
Silver bullets|Possible harm|Pain|They're freaking bullets - death
Churches/Cathedrals|Can't enter|No effect|No effect
Other dwellings|Can't enter without permission|No effect|No effect, though vampanese prefer not to
Family|Must kill before freed|Usually dead|Dead or abandoned
Buried|Can only exist within a certain radius of soil|Crawl back up|As human
Grains|Must count|No effect|No effect
Coffins|Yes|Probably not|Yes, but it's cultural
Shadows|Often, no|Yes|Yes
Skin|Most often, pale|Pale|Vampire: as human, Vampanese: purple-red
Decapitation|Fatal|Not fatal, although great pain can be inflicted|Fatal
Drowning|Fatal|Not fatal|Fatal, and terrified of drowning in running water
Fire|Fatal|Fatal|Fatal
Immortality|Yes|Yes|No, but slower aging
[/table]

Darren Shan's vampires (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheSagaOfDarrenShan) were different from the norm, but it was a sane and low-powered take on them. Don't judge them based on that movie...

[Temotei]

Thanks for that. :smallbiggrin:

[Killer Angel]

No listing of holy water?
it usually burns vampires as acid... don't know the effect on the twilight ones.

[Temotei]

No listing of holy water?
it usually burns vampires as acid... don't know the effect on the twilight ones.

Good point. I thought about that, but I'm too lazy to go back and edit it in. :smallamused:

[comicshorse]

Actually, silver was once considered purest of metals, and anathema to all evil. Why mirrors didn't reflect vampires? Because the actual source of the reflection was silver!

I always thought that Vampires cast no reflection because they had no souls. The same reason they didn't have shadows.

Also I believe there are chinese stories of vampires being affected by sticky rice

[Frozen_Feet]

That's one version of folklore. Different areas have had wildly different notions of what a 'vampire' is. In mexican myths, I think, vampires have flaeyd skulls for heads and drink blood of their prey by puncturing them with a sharp tongue, for example.

[Nameless]

I always thought that Vampires cast no reflection because they had no souls. The same reason they didn't have shadows.

Also I believe there are chinese stories of vampires being affected by sticky rice

...

DEATH BY RICE! :smallbiggrin:

[Starbuck_II]

Are we including hopping vampires (Asian ones)?
As name implies they hop rather than walk (which makes detecting them easier as they they skip/hop every where they go).

Jiang Shi:
hey are said to be created when a person's soul (魄 pò) fails to leave the deceased's body, due to improper death, suicide, or just wanting to cause trouble.
They can be evaded by holding one's breath, as they track living creatures by detecting their breathing (blind). Like those depicted in Western movies, they tend to appear with outrageously long tongues and long razor sharp black fingernails.
In the movies, jiang shi can be put to sleep by putting a piece of yellow paper with a spell written on it on their foreheads (Chinese talisman or 符, pinyin: fú).
When grains or rice, seeds, anything small thrown in the path of a jiang shi, the jiang shi will stop and count the grains of rice.
Other items used to repel jiang shi in films include chicken's eggs (whereas duck's eggs are ineffective), and the blood of a black dog.

[Frozen_Feet]

Didn't destroying Jiang Shi involve throwing old socks in a river, or am I just remembering weird stuff from Jackie Chan Adventures?

[pendell]

Stoker goes into more detail than that. Vampires have to sleep in ground made holy by human self-sacrifice, eg Dracula's homeland were millions died defending Europe from the Turks. Somehow the ground can then be made more holy by blessing it, which makes it useless to the vampire. So vampires like soil that is holy but not too holy.


Hmm ... the shedding of innocent blood, perhaps, is what makes a vampire able to sleep in the ground? In Stoker's stories anyway?

Where exactly does it say that? I remember reading Stoker's original story, and I remember ol' Vlad waxing poetic about the self-sacrifice of his countrymen, but I never connected the dots to it being necessary for his coffin.

Plenty of battlefields in England. When he moved there, why didn't he use some of that soil instead of having it brought over with him from Transylvania?

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Flickerdart]

Plenty of battlefields in England. When he moved there, why didn't he use some of that soil instead of having it brought over with him from Transylvania?
Compatibility issues?

[Frozen_Feet]

I remember Hellsing clearly stating that the soil has to be from his homeland. So I guess it isn't enough for the soil to be hallowed by blood, the vampire has to have died there itself as well.

[GolemsVoice]

Well, you could say that blood shed in battle is no longer innocent, in the way required by the Vampire.

[t3h l3g1t m4g3]

I think the non Twilight vampires depend on the myth/movie/book/other, because a lot of the facts seem to contradict each other.

I can't comment on the Twilight vampires because I haven't read the books myself...

[skywalker]

I would like to point out that while Twilight vampires don't dress in ridiculous formalwear, they do wear very nice clothing, drive Audis and Porsches, use the black amex (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centurion_Card), etc. In short, they maintain the "aristocrat of the night" image, just in a modern way.

[Closet_Skeleton]

In folklore, drinking a vampire's blood (or dirt from their grave or their cooked heart) is actually a method of prevention against turning into a vampire. Anne Rice came up with the idea that drinking a vampire's blood turned you but being bitten by a vampire didn't, likely based on the scene from Dracula where Mina is force-fed vampire blood by Dracula but it's never said whether or not it was necessary to infect her.

While this seems counter-intuitive, it could make sense as a form of innoculation.


I always thought that Vampires cast no reflection because they had no souls. The same reason they didn't have shadows.

Apparently Bram Stoker made the mirrors thing up, but the belief that shadows and reflections are actually a person's soul predated his work.

Similarly he also first applied the running water thing to vampires, though it did apply to other creatures in folklore, such as British fairies and witches.

[Mewtarthio]

In folklore, drinking a vampire's blood (or dirt from their grave or their cooked heart) is actually a method of prevention against turning into a vampire. Anne Rice came up with the idea that drinking a vampire's blood turned you but being bitten by a vampire didn't, likely based on the scene from Dracula where Mina is force-fed vampire blood by Dracula but it's never said whether or not it was necessary to infect her.

As I recall, they never said it was necessary, just that it ensured she would become a vampire upon her death unless Dracula was destroyed first. Also, it forged a telepathic link between Mina and Dracula, which Dracula planned on using to enthrall her once he recovered his strength back home.

Speaking of enthralling, how come vampire's vaunted powers of mental domination don't make that list?

[Mr. Scaly]

Darren Shan's vampires (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheSagaOfDarrenShan) were different from the norm, but it was a sane and low-powered take on them. Don't judge them based on that movie...

Thank you for that. :smallwink:


Incidentally, I had a theory a while back that rather than vampires, Eddie and company are actually a sentient race of golems that uses blood for fuel. Off topic, I know.

[Zaydos]

Away from my Encyclopedia of Vampires right now (Or is it Vampire Encyclopedia, I have it in my dorm) but:

In Dracula while a stake could kill so could removing the heart by other means (Dracula is killed by having it cut out with a kukri).

Dracula also had to live in a building with a connected church, and needed hallowed soil from his homeland to sleep in. He also met Lucy in a church graveyard because a suicide had been buried within thus tainting it.

Other vampires... vary.

In some cultures they were invisible except to dhampyrs (half-vampires). Also vampires assuming bat form is something from Dracula and not before.

Well gtg, still away from books, but might look up some later.

[LurkerInPlayground]

I read somewhere that she didn't even know vampire lore until after she wrote Twilight.
How is that even possible?

Did she live in a bubble or something?


I always thought that Vampires cast no reflection because they had no souls. The same reason they didn't have shadows.

Mirrors were nothing more than a piece of silver tacked to a pane of glass.

[Temotei]

As I recall, they never said it was necessary, just that it ensured she would become a vampire upon her death unless Dracula was destroyed first. Also, it forged a telepathic link between Mina and Dracula, which Dracula planned on using to enthrall her once he recovered his strength back home.

Speaking of enthralling, how come vampire's vaunted powers of mental domination don't make that list?

Funny. I forgot that. I remembered it, rather...I just forgot to put it in there. Hm.


How is that even possible?

Did she live in a bubble or something?

That would be very difficult. :smallamused:

I imagine she knew the basics, like undead, bloodsucking, etc. She just didn't know the slightly more obscure knowledge (that normal five-year old kids know) like reflections in mirrors (incidentally, do vampires reflect in puddles?), transformations, etc.

[comicshorse]

My impression was always Vampires had NO reflections ( but I always believed that was due to having no soul not mirrors being silver backed)

[Lord Seth]

http://pbfcomics.com/?cid=PBF169-The_Other_Girls.jpg