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AtwasAwamps
2010-01-19, 10:08 AM
I have been thinking about messing around with a sneak attack/skill trick using character for the next time I have to make a character (which could be very soon or not for a while, but I like to have concepts on file to play with). Poking around, I found the Invisible Blade class…while clearly not amazing, the class does have some interesting class features and does continue to advance sneak attack damage. It is, however, plagued by low, low hit dice for a melee class (d6) which will hurt badly in the long run. Still, it’s a concept I wanted to play with and so here are my thoughts:

Race would be human.

Generally, stats are rolled, so lets say highest to Dex, then Int, then Con, possibly switching Int and Con.

I would like to start with 3 levels of the variant Thug Sneak Attack Fighter. This would give me 4 +int Skill Points per level and an expanded class list, as well as 2d6 Sneak Attack.

Then, I would like to grab three levels of Swashbuckler, for the “free” weapon finesse, continued ‘strong’ skill point progression, and maintained BAB and d10 hit dice.

This brings me to level six, where I would (and here’s where it gets possibly a little far-fetched and maybe would get smacked down by a sane DM) pick up Daring Outlaw as a feat. Now, by RAW, Daring Outlaw requires 2d6 and the Grace class feature. I would have the sneak attack from the fighter levels and the grace from the swashbuckler levels. This would mean that I would gain sneak attack as a level 3 rogue from my swashbuckler levels, stacked with sneak attack from a level three fighter…2d6 on each side, which should grant me 4d6 sneak attack total. Yes, this is a little “Rules as Written” shenanigans and if I’m correct, it adds an extra D6 to my sneak attack by level six.

I would then begin taking invisible blade levels.

Is there anything wrong with my framework, besides being obviously RAW-obtuse for the sake of an extra SA die? I don’t think it’s a huge deal, but I wanted to maintain d10 hit dice and full BAB progression as much as possible before hitting the low HD of the Invisible Blade PRC. Did I miss anything horrible?

NB: Any DM would probably tell me that my SA Thug levels count as rogue now to reduce the benefit of my chicanery, which would also be fine, as it would just push me back to standard SA progression instead of slightly accelerated progression. I just want to know if there’s anything missing in my methodology.

Eldariel
2010-01-19, 11:33 AM
It seems fine and frankly, that use of Daring Outlaw seems more in line of "things I'd houserule in favor" than "things I'd ban on sight". It's not in the least bit broken and Thug SA Fighter is pretty much just a Rogue with slightly less burglary skill and slightly more martial training. So yeah, sounds fine.

Only prob is, Invisible Blade only gets the Free Feint once per round meaning you'll still be unable to full attack SA without flank or something so meh. On the flipside, flanking is easy.

AtwasAwamps
2010-01-19, 12:07 PM
Yeah, this is half for power and half for fun, as it will let me create a certain character I've always wanted to use.

Out of curiosity, does anyone know if Sense Motive is a part of the swashbuckler skill list? Trying to figure out if I need to take the Adaptive Learner feat...

SurlySeraph
2010-01-19, 12:10 PM
Yep, it gets Sense Motive.

AtwasAwamps
2010-01-19, 12:17 PM
Oh, that makes my life so much easier. Thanks!

Skill tricks, here we cooooome...

HailDiscordia
2010-01-19, 12:47 PM
Don't know how far you plan on taking the character level wise, but Invisible Blade is only a 5 level class so you will have some levels to play with. I think a couple of fighter levels would be nice for the feats, especially since you have forgotten to incorporate the somewhat awful requirements for the IB. I was actually just looking at it the other day and I'm pretty sure it needs Far Shot, Point Blank, and a Weapon Focus (something like that). But I think the best thing to do is go for Two Weapon Fighting, which will sort of double your sneak attack die.

I actually just made an NPC very similar to this for the party to fight sometime in the next couple of weeks. I think I went Fighter 4/Swashbuckler 3/Rogue 3/ Invisible Blade 5 for him. He turned out pretty sick. The Blade doesn't really do much for me until it gets the Feint as a free action at level 5, but then watch out.

ex cathedra
2010-01-19, 12:55 PM
The author of the class once stated that he suggests changing the Invisible Blade's pre-reqs to just Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus (Dagger, Kukri, Punching Dagger), since the class was originally ten levels long, and when WotC editted the class down to 5 levels for CWar, they didn't alter the now-odd feat requirements.

Anyways, errata made the feint a swift action. Luckily, the feat Surprising Riposte in Drow of the Underdark lets you cause any opponent who you deal damage to after a successful feint to become flat-footed. Thus, you can get a full sneak attack every round, as long as you successfully feint and hit.

Edit: I can't prove this, since the author's original post was apparently lost in the WotC forum change.

Draz74
2010-01-19, 01:00 PM
Also consider ways that Tome of Battle can improve your character. Assassin's Stance is a less controversial way to add +2d6 sneak attack to a character quickly ... though admittedly, picking it up before Level 6 would probably require a Swordsage dip that would make you lose 1 BAB and 1 HP compared to a Fighter or Swashbuckler level. (Though you'd pick up Weapon Focus for free, which might make up for the lost BAB.)

Whether you go for Assassin's Stance or not, consider ToB tricks available. Possibly in item form. If you have to be maxxing out your Sense Motive anyway, I particularly love Baffling Defense (Setting Sun 2). And a Warblade dip somewhere could do great things for your mobility, and get you an extra hit point without losing you any BAB.

Of course, if you're blowing a feat on Daring Outlaw, I can also see a motivation to get as many Swashbuckler levels as possible to make that feat more worthwhile. Hmmm.

Oh, if you're planning on picking up a lot of skill tricks, you definitely want to look at either Battle Trickster or Uncanny Trickster. But you probably knew that already.

AtwasAwamps
2010-01-19, 01:01 PM
Actually, I hadn't forgotten the requirements at all. If I'm correct, they are Point Blank Shot, Weapon Focus (Dagger/Kukri/Punching dagger), and Weapon Finesse. All are easily gained by a level six human with three levels in SA Thug Fighter and three levels in Swashbuckler.

Level 1: Point Blank Shot
Human: Weapon Focus

Swashbuckler will grant Weapon Finesse at level 1 automatically. So feats are not a problem.

For some reason I was operating off the 10-level version of the class. Oops! Five levels changes quite a bit. I might go back into Swashbuckler or perhaps look for another sneak-attack oriented class. Maybe even dip into Battle Trickster or something. We'll see!

Edit: My current playgroup is uncomfortable with ToB. I'm trying to change their minds about it, but we'll see.

ex cathedra
2010-01-19, 01:13 PM
My earlier point, however, was that the Complete Warrior Invisible Blade has really odd pre-requisites, because the class was originally an amalgam of Invisible Blade and Master Thrower, or some such thing. A reasonable DM would drop the thrown weapon pre-requisites.

I would suggest going back into Swashbuckler or taking a class like Dread Commando after you finish IB. I guess my suggestion is really something like..

Human Thug Fighter 3/Swashbuckler 3/Invisible Blade 5/Dread Commando 5/Swashbuckler +4. Total sneak attack +9d6, Sudden Strike +3d6. BAB of +20, lots of small bonuses.

AtwasAwamps
2010-01-19, 01:18 PM
My earlier point, however, was that the Complete Warrior Invisible Blade has really odd pre-requisites, because the class was originally an amalgam of Invisible Blade and Master Thrower, or some such thing. A reasonable DM would drop the thrown weapon pre-requisites.


Ohhh, gotcha, gotcha. I guess I could ask the DM. I don't really mind either way, though I'd really like to have that feat free...

ex cathedra
2010-01-19, 01:22 PM
It's actually two feats. the official version of IB requires Point Blank Shot, Far Shot, Weapon Focus, and Weapon finesse. So, yeah. I'd really look into asking about that.

As a final note, can you use Magic of Incarnum? The build I suggested above would benefit from it; drop Human for Azurin (a human variant), take Midnight Dodge instead of Dodge for Dread Commando, and take Indigo Strike. It's a small bonus, but you're effectively trading out Dodge, 1 skill point per level, and one more feat for an extra 6 damage per sneak attack hit. It's not as good as craven, but who says that you can't have both?

AtwasAwamps
2010-01-19, 01:25 PM
It's actually two feats. the official version of IB requires Point Blank Shot, Far Shot, Weapon Focus, and Weapon finesse. So, yeah. I'd really look into asking about that.

As a final note, can you use Magic of Incarnum? The build I suggested above would benefit from it; drop Human for Azurin (a human variant), take Midnight Dodge instead of Dodge for Dread Commando, and take Indigo Strike. It's a small bonus, but you're effectively trading out Dodge, 1 skill point per level, and one more feat for an extra 6 damage per sneak attack hit. It's not as good as craven, but who says that you can't have both?

Ah, interesting. Didn't see Far Shot, I'll have to check my books again.

Incarnum makes 'em nervous too. THey had a munchkin player who abused both ToB and Incarnum and they're still burned. He's one of their close friends, too...

AtwasAwamps
2010-01-19, 03:26 PM
Apologies for the double post, my computer is giving me troubles and not letting me edit and I wanted to ask this question before I forget...

In case of not being able to reduce the prereqs for the class, are there any other reccomendations for a prestige class that might fit with this build, staying full BAB and hopefully progressing sneak attack?

ex cathedra
2010-01-19, 03:39 PM
Dread Commando? It's 5 levels, full BAB, and provides Sudden Strike (which kind of sucks, yeah, but if you take Surprising Riposte it's easy), 6+Int skills per level, d8 HP, provides an initiative boost to your entire party, and makes you stealthier (or as stealthy, but faster). It's in Heroes of Battle.

Incarnum really isn't over-powered at all. One of the classes is a bit weak, but none of them are what I would call broken. There are two or three things (Midnight Metamagic, on principle, Strongheart Vest, and one of the psionic feats that I can't recall) in that book that are a bit too good, in my opinion, but as a whole it's nothing to be scared of.

There's nothing wrong with fixing Invisible Blade's prerequisites, and I really suggest trying to get that okay'd.

Kylarra
2010-01-19, 03:39 PM
Nightsong Enforcer (CAdv) might work, it's got SA progression and full BAB, although you probably only want one level since it increments at 1/4/7/10. Prereqs : BAB+5, Hide/MS 10 ranks, Improved init, Evasion; and a fluff thing about being guild trained.

You might look into battle trickster (CS) too, assuming you like skill tricks. :smallbiggrin: Only 3 levels, but 2 free skill tricks and a bonus feat.

AtwasAwamps
2010-01-19, 03:43 PM
There's nothing wrong with fixing Invisible Blade's prerequisites, and I really suggest trying to get that okay'd.

Yeah, I'd prefer to do that, but just in case. Hrmm.

Well, thanks for all your help, folks. I really appreciate it. I've also got the 10 level version of the class available (the updated one the author created) and might talk to the DM about using that too. Blargh. Why must WotC occasionally suck at being themselves?

arguskos
2010-01-19, 03:44 PM
Eh, it's worth noting, aethernox, that there's nothing inherently wrong with Incarnum of ToB. Doesn't mean they're right for every group, especially if said group has been burned by them.

That said, I would agree with you that the Azurin rebuild is probably pretty good. Midnight Dodge is like kkkwin.

EDIT: Occasionally, Atwas? More like always. :smallsigh:

deuxhero
2010-01-19, 03:48 PM
Dread Commando? It's 5 levels, full BAB, and provides Sudden Strike (which kind of sucks, yeah, but if you take Surprising Riposte it's easy), 6+Int skills per level, d8 HP, provides an initiative boost to your entire party, and makes you stealthier (or as stealthy, but faster). It's in Heroes of Battle.

The class is in a preview. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20050407b&page=6)

AtwasAwamps
2010-01-19, 04:07 PM
Hrm. Dread Commando looks to be a strong class, but just doesn’t quite match my intent…this fellow is supposed to be less about stealthing around and covert opps then he is about flanking and feinting the foe…hence the levels in SA Fighter and Swashbuckler rather than going with an obvious and stronger build. He’s a thug who picked up a modicum of style.

I may just say screw it and even if my GM doesn’t let me reduce the prereqs for invisible blade, take the five levels from it and dip into master thrower to at least make USE of my throwing-oriented feats. I’ll have to see.

Person_Man
2010-01-19, 04:38 PM
In case of not being able to reduce the prereqs for the class, are there any other reccomendations for a prestige class that might fit with this build, staying full BAB and hopefully progressing sneak attack?

May I ask if you want Sneak Attack specifically, or just bonus damage?

Because Full Sneak Attack progression grants 10d6 (average 35) extra damage, which isn't that much, and it can't be multiplied. Other combos can grant you higher damage more efficiently, and don't have to worry about qualifying for Precision damage and worry about creatures who are immune.

For example, any build which spends some time optimizing Power Attack (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7165087), getting extra attacks (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7066595), and getting Pounce (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=103358) and/or getting extra reach (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7081777) can easily deal enough damage to kill the Tarrasque in 1 or 2 rounds, which is (probably) the most you'll ever need.

Anywho, you might want to consider Dread Commando, Ghost Faced Killer, Justicar, Ronin, Whisperknife, and Nightsong Enforcer. None is particularly strong, but they're close to what you're asking for.

AtwasAwamps
2010-01-19, 04:41 PM
May I ask if you want Sneak Attack specifically, or just bonus damage?

Because Full Sneak Attack progression grants 10d6 (average 35) extra damage, which isn't that much, and it can't be multiplied. Other combos can grant you higher damage more efficiently, and don't have to worry about qualifying for Precision damage and worry about creatures who are immune.

For example, any build which spends some time optimizing Power Attack (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7165087), getting extra attacks (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7066595), and getting Pounce (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=103358) and/or getting extra reach (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7081777) can easily deal enough damage to kill the Tarrasque in 1 or 2 rounds, which is (probably) the most you'll ever need.

Anywho, you might want to consider Dread Commando, Ghost Faced Killer, Justicar, Ronin, Whisperknife, and Nightsong Enforcer. None is particularly strong, but they're close to what you're asking for.

Hehe. I actually have most of those bookmarked already...

I'm going for a different flavor than I usually do. In my crew, there are two people who will tend towards optimized strategies...myself and the man who would be the DM for the game I'd be making this character for. He knows what I'm capable of and though he hasn't said anything, I think he'd be upset if I overshadowed the rest of the group with some of those combos. I'm being a bit careful about my power level, hence working with something like sneak attack and faking out an opponent. I'm nowhere near optimized, of course, but I'll still fit the games powerlevel and be able to play some fun fluff as well.

But thank you for the suggestions. I'll check a few of them out. I'd kind of like to see if I could get Ghost-Faced killer into this...hrmm...

Person_Man
2010-01-19, 04:58 PM
Incarnum really isn't over-powered at all. One of the classes is a bit weak, but none of them are what I would call broken. There are two or three things (Midnight Metamagic, on principle, Strongheart Vest, and one of the psionic feats that I can't recall) in that book that are a bit too good, in my opinion, but as a whole it's nothing to be scared of.

Agreed. Though there are about a dozen or so awesome and/or semi-unique things in MoI, there's an inherent limit to the power of soulmelds. The Incarnate soulmelds generally need to be filled with essentia to work. So you usually need at least 3-5 Incarnate levels for it to work well, and you can only have 2-4 of soulmelds filled at any given time. The Totemist soulmelds generally need to be bound to a chakra slot to be good, and at most, you can get 5 chakra binds at level 18. Although he has a few choice soulmelds, the Soulborn is just a horrible class. If you want access to his stuff, you need to spend feats, AND fill the soulmelds with essentia, AND bind them to a chakra slot. Also, multiple soulmelds can't occupy the same chakra slot unless you take a feat to do so. And the essentia capacity of soulmelds scale very slowly, and sucks unless you're an Incarnate or a Totemist binding to your Totem chakra.

So it's great, but generally weaker then ToB or Psionics unless you really know what you're doing.

deuxhero
2010-01-19, 05:07 PM
And if you do know what you are doing, I don't think anything in Incarnum compares to Iron Heart Surge/White Raven Tactics loop and Spell to Power Eurasomething.

ex cathedra
2010-01-19, 05:18 PM
Iron Heart Surge isn't that broken, it's just so ambiguously worded that some individuals like to try to exploit it. White Raven Tactics is good, and isn't broken without people looping it. Incarnum... well, yeah. There's not much to say. Aside from Strongheart Vest shenanigans (I can think of a lot of SHV exploits), and the Azure Whatever PP loop, there are very few things in MoI that you need to watch for.

Also, we don't talk about Spell-To-Power erudite.

arguskos
2010-01-19, 05:20 PM
Also, we don't talk about Spell-To-Power erudite.
First Rule of Op Club: We don't talk about StP Erudite.
Second Rule of Op Clud: WE DO NOT TALK ABOUT StP ERUDITE.
:smallwink:

Draz74
2010-01-19, 05:21 PM
And if you do know what you are doing, I don't think anything in Incarnum compares to Iron Heart Surge/White Raven Tactics loop and Spell to Power Eurasomething.

I think I saw a Necrocarnum infinite loop of some sort once.

ex cathedra
2010-01-19, 05:21 PM
I believe that the 3rd and 4th rules are the same, but for Arcane Swordsage.

Edit:

I recall that even with infinite loops Necrocarnum still sucks.

arguskos
2010-01-19, 05:22 PM
I believe that the 3rd and 4th rules are the same, but for Arcane Swordsage.
Fifth Rule of Op Club: We don't talk about Pazuzu.
etc....
:smallcool:

There are a lot of rules of Op Club.

deuxhero
2010-01-19, 06:14 PM
First Rule of Op Club: We don't talk about StP Erudite.
Second Rule of Op Clud: WE DO NOT TALK ABOUT StP ERUDITE.
:smallwink:

I thought the first was not to lose caster levels?

tyckspoon
2010-01-19, 06:17 PM
No, that's the First Rule of Optimization. We're talking about the Rules of Optimization Club. It's the difference between the First Rule of Fighting (Hit the other guy first) and the First Rule of Fight Club (...you know.)

deuxhero
2010-01-19, 07:35 PM
Oh! Scarlet Corsair (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20050805b&page=1) is also a full BAB+sneak attack class.

AtwasAwamps
2010-01-21, 09:35 PM
I ended up deciding to change the entire concept and not going for Invisible Blade at all in the end. Rather, I'm going to see if I can be allowed to take two levels in Swordsage so I can pick up Shadow Blade. The build currently runs:

Thug Sneak Attack Fighter 3/Swashbuckler 3/Swordsage 2/Swashbuckler X

With Daring Outlaw, Swashbuckler will basically be a full BAB class I can take that will progress my sneak attack.

Feats Chosen (currently up to level 9) Will Be:
TWF (not sold on this, really...)
Able Learner
Improved Initiative
Daring Outlaw
Shadow Blade

The changes will grant me access to six lvl 2 maneuvers, one level 3 maneuver, one level 2 stance and one level 3 stance. My choices for these are:

Maneuvers:
Sapphire Nightmare Blade
Distracting Ember
Emerald Razor
Baffling Defense
Cloak of Deception
Moment of Perfect Mind
Shadow Garrote

Stances:
Island of Blades
Assassin's Stance

With this particular build revision, I do lose 1 BAB and 2 HP, but I gain a vast number of ways to create sneak attack openings. I like it.

Draz74
2010-01-21, 10:09 PM
With this particular build revision, I do lose 1 BAB and 2 HP, but I gain a vast number of ways to create sneak attack openings. I like it.

Looks good. The missed point of BAB is also partially made up for by the free Weapon Focus benefits with certain weapons.

Person_Man
2010-01-22, 10:07 AM
I think I saw a Necrocarnum infinite loop of some sort once.

The Necrocarnate PrC gives up normal essentia progression, and instead gains essentia for a limited period of time from recently dead bodies. Theoretically you could kill a bunch of chickens or rats every morning, get a metric ton of essentia, and then then max out all of your soulmelds and incarnum items and feats (which are otherwise quite weak, as they suck up your very limited soulmeld capacity). There's also a feat that gives you bonus hit points equal to your essentia pool, and maybe a few other abuses I'm forgetting.

But in reality your DM won't allow that, and will probably limit you to things your group kills. I'm still a fan of dipping one level into Necrocarnate for this reason. After all, while you can't rely on it, there will certainly be times when your DM throws a mob of mooks at you.


I ended up deciding to change the entire concept and not going for Invisible Blade at all in the end. Rather, I'm going to see if I can be allowed to take two levels in Swordsage so I can pick up Shadow Blade. The build currently runs:

Thug Sneak Attack Fighter 3/Swashbuckler 3/Swordsage 2/Swashbuckler X

I'm confused. Are you going for Power Attack + Sneak Attack? Or are you just going for the fluff of Sneak Attack? Or are you just mixing things you like together?

AtwasAwamps
2010-01-22, 11:44 AM
I'm going for the fluff of a street-born thug, a pragmatic street tough who's gone beyond mugging people for money and into something greater...

To go with that fluff, I'd like to have full BAB and good hit dice, but still stick with using daggers primarily. "Thug" fighter works better in my head then rogue and has the mechanical advantages of full BAB and d10 hit dice compared to a rogue's abilities. Swashbucker grants me free weapon defense and int to damage to symbolize my characters "skillful" use of his daggers. Shadow Blade does roughly the same and the second level Swordsage grants me wis to AC to represent his ability to get out of the way of dangerous blows without costing me light armor proficiency.

I was originally going to take invisible blade because it represents the skillful dagger focus I was going for but the mechanical limitations that inflicts are frustrating to me. Dipping two levels into swordsage allows me to maintain near full-BAB progression, equivalent to full sneak attack progression, and decent flat damage to all my attacks on a full attack.

I realize this isn't a perfect-optimization build, but that wasn't entirely what I was going for. I do apologize for not making that 100% clear. Yes, the fluff of sneak attack is essentially what I was looking for. I'm sorry.