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View Full Version : [3.5] Fun with Swarm Subtype



Person_Man
2010-01-19, 12:35 PM
So while working on an Incarnum build, I came across a rather odd soulmeld in Dragon Magazine 350, pg 86:

Brood Keeper's Heart: Totemist soulmeld: Provides 2 + (essentia * 2) bonus to Concentration checks. (A very nice soulmeld for Diamond Mind and Kensai). When bound to Heart chakra, it grants you the Swarm subtype, although you still count as your normal size. You lose your Armor bonus and Natural Armor bonus to AC while this is in effect.

Anyone can get the soulmeld by taking the Shape Soulmeld feat. You can open your Heart chakra with Incarnate 16, Totemist 17, Necrocarnate 11 (ECL 18), or Ironsoul Forgemaster 10 (ECL 15, and probably your best option for a variety of reasons).

In this context, the Swarm subtype (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Swarm_Subtype) provides:

Immune to critical hits.
Immune to Flanking.
Immune to being Staggered.
Immune to being reduced to "dying state" by damage (ie, free Diehard).
Immune to Trip.
Immune to Bull Rush.
Immune to Grapple, and cannot Grapple an opponent.
Immune to any spell or effect that targets a specific number of creatures, with the exception of mind-effecting and morale effects).
You take 50% more damage from area of effect attacks.


How you handle your attacks is a DM call. By RAW you don't threaten, and don't make standard melee attacks. Instead you have to move into your enemy's square, and you just automatically hit your enemy based on your hit dice. And you also distract the foes of the square you're in. But honestly I'm not sure how that would work in this context. There are plenty of soulmelds that grant natural weapons, and soulmelds aren't part of your physical body. You can also still hold melee weapons and items. So thearetically they still threaten, even if your natural attacks don't. However, some DMs might rule that you essentially have no solid physical form, and thus can't hold anything. This would mean you have to give up all of your gear, and would have to use non-melee attacks (breath weapons, Acid Spittle, Basalisk Mask, etc).

So, lets assume you allow a player to use this. How would you rule that they make their attacks? Could they use the Totemists dozen or so natural weapons, or would they only deal swarm damage? Could they use manufactured weapons?

On the flip side, let's say you're the player. What sort of build would you use to take advantage of this (keeping in mind that you pretty much have to spend at least 10 levels of Ironsoul Forgemaster to get access to it), and how would you optimize it?

Darrin
2010-01-20, 12:21 AM
Brood Keeper's Heart: Totemist soulmeld: Provides 2 + (essentia * 2) bonus to Concentration checks. (A very nice soulmeld for Diamond Mind and Kensai).


Actually, +4 insight bonus, + 2 per essentia invested.



How you handle your attacks is a DM call. By RAW you don't threaten, and don't make standard melee attacks.


I'm not so sure about that... by RAW, you don't threaten or make AoOs with your *Swarm* attack. As a medium creature, you still have a natural 5' reach... is an AoO a "standard melee attack"? Hmm. I guess the Swarm Attack replaces whatever melee/natural attacks you normally have, so AoOs are probably a "No."



So, lets assume you allow a player to use this. How would you rule that they make their attacks? Could they use the Totemists dozen or so natural weapons, or would they only deal swarm damage? Could they use manufactured weapons?


Text for Swarm Attack seems to say it replaces the Attack: section of the stat block with the swarm attack, so you'd lose your natural weapons along with your melee attacks. Special Attacks should still be in effect, though, so breath weapons, spitting acid, activating magic items should still work.



On the flip side, let's say you're the player. What sort of build would you use to take advantage of this (keeping in mind that you pretty much have to spend at least 10 levels of Ironsoul Forgemaster to get access to it), and how would you optimize it?

I guess that boils down to how do you add extra damage to a swarm attack? Swarm damage isn't really identified as natural weapon damage nor melee damage... it's non-magical and untyped but it is reduced by DR. Hmm. Heart of Fire might add some fire damage... at least, I'd like to see the dirty looks a DM gets if he tries to say it doesn't. Can a swarm still charge? Probably not, since "closest square" would be one square too short... otherwise Thunderstep Boots?

Hmm. Sneak attack, maybe? Can't threaten or flank, though, and no grapple so the opponent still retains his Dex bonus, I think. An invisible swarm might get sneak attack damage... huh, would attacking as a swarm break invisibility? No attack roll being made. Favored Enemy... probably not, specifies weapon damage.

Skirmish should work, though... description says it applies to all attacks, doesn't specify melee. Move at least 10', and after that wherever you stop, add skirmish damage to your swarm damage. Maybe add Indigo Strike for another 1-4 damage.

Hmm. Power Attack shenanigans, maybe? Has to be melee damage... probably going to be a pretty tough sell on that one.

Something else that might need to be straightened out. Swarm attack says you do swarm damage at the end of your move. Most creatures get two move actions per round... so can you move twice and do swarm damage twice? If so, add more move actions with Hustle, Threefold Mask of the Chimera, Celerity, magic items, etc.

Another puzzling thought. Ok, no melee/natural attacks... but what about ToB maneuvers? You still get standard actions as a swarm, so presumably you could still use strikes instead of melee attacks. At the very least, the (Su) strikes should still be possible. Ugh. Head is starting to hurt.

PlzBreakMyCmpAn
2010-01-20, 12:23 AM
First off, without a nice or common-sensical DM who would of course allow this subtype to be taken as a favored enemy, gaining the swarm subtype is one of the very few ways in all of DnD to be completely immune to all precision damage. Ever

I would be charitable and allow the swarm to hold items (IRL swarms and tornadoes can hold things up despite their moving and shifting 'parts'). I might also advise the player to check +reach things (right up your ally) to see if anything might add reach after becoming a swarm to check interaction.

I see other incarnum-based ghostly appendages being exempt from the swarm and therefore working just fine (girillion arms ftw).

Optimization might include WSing into monsters with 'entering your space'-like abilities before melding. Re-WS and meld as necessary.

Person_Man
2010-01-20, 11:26 AM
First off, without a nice or common-sensical DM who would of course allow this subtype to be taken as a favored enemy, gaining the swarm subtype is one of the very few ways in all of DnD to be completely immune to all precision damage. Ever

You gain the swarm subtype, but retain your normal type. So if someone has Favored Enemy (Humanoid, Whatever) they could still Swift Hunter me. But I doubt the DM would pull that on me unless he decides that we're being chased by a bounty hunter for some reason.



Ugh. Head is starting to hurt.

Mine too. But good news - my DM for the one-shot campaign that we're having soon has ruled that each round I can either attack with hand held and natural weapons, OR attack as a Swarm and use the Distraction ability. Once I do one, I can't do the other until the start of my next turn. Since the Swarm attack pretty much sucks unless you're really big, I probably won't use it. But this is probably the most generous ruling I could have asked for.

Knowing this, I'm torn as to how I should handle my build.

Should I double bind Blink Shirt (for all day Blink, which I could theoretically get with a magic ring) to my Heart Chakra, or Spellward Shirt for Spell Resistance 21ish?

I can make the build any level I want - though the higher it is, the harder the encounters will be. The DM is very good about challenging us. For my progression, should I go:

Totemist 2/Incarnate 3/Ironsoul Forgemaster 10/Master of Masks 1

Totemist 17

Incarnate 16

Something else?

Ironsoul Forgemaster offers universal Energy Resistance (which is a big deal, since I take double damage from area of effect attacks) and I can pump any weapon I wield with essentia to deal a damage bonus and Daze (!) any living enemy.

Totemist grants a million natural attacks, and would make an excellent Grapple build - which would be an easy way to get into my enemy's square and use the Nauseate attack (assuming they survive my attacks, which they probably wouldn't). Maybe double bind Blink Shirt for all day Blink (though I could just buy a ring) or Dread Carapace for Spell Resistance 21ish.

Incarnate 16 with Vitality Belt (80 extra hit points), Spellward Shirt (SR 25ish), and Wind Cloak (DR vs ranged and Deflect Arrows multiple times per round) would be pretty much impossible to kill. But I'd basically have to rely on magic items for offense.

Thoughts?

Sinfire Titan
2010-01-20, 11:34 AM
To be honest, I wouldn't bog down your DM with this soulmeld. Dragon is notorious with their balance problems, and this shows they didn't think things through (at least they had the common sense to put it on your Heart Chakra and not the Totem). You said this DM was wary of Incarnum, and this would likely put him off of it fairly quickly.

Zom B
2010-01-20, 12:46 PM
Instead you have to move into your enemy's square, and you just automatically hit your enemy based on your hit dice. And you also distract the foes of the square you're in.

So, your primary tactic in combat is to make your enemy uncomfortable by invading their personal space.

I'm getting a mental image of that kid from Hey Arnold! that always appeared at Helga's shoulder and panted loudly in her ear.

Darrin
2010-01-20, 05:49 PM
Thoughts?

I'm still trying to figure out how to optimize the swarm attack... How about this:

Hengeyokai Sparrow Warlock 3/Totemist 2/Ironsoul Forgemaster 10. As a sparrow, a fine-sized swarm is immune to weapon damage. Eldritch Glaive + Weapon Finesse = Iterative Attacks as a full-round action + swarm attack, assuming you have some other way to move (Travel Devotion, Hustle, Threefold Mask of the Chimera). Use Confound the Big Folk to enter an opponent's square, Eldritch Blast + swarm damage. Next round, unload Eldritch Glaive + swarm damage. And the target is flat-footed, so you could add some sneak attack or Craven in there for more damage.

sofawall
2010-01-20, 06:34 PM
Totemist grants a million natural attacks, and would make an excellent Grapple build...

Swarms cannot grapple?

Person_Man
2010-01-20, 08:16 PM
I'm still trying to figure out how to optimize the swarm attack... How about this:

Hengeyokai Sparrow Warlock 3/Totemist 2/Ironsoul Forgemaster 10. As a sparrow, a fine-sized swarm is immune to weapon damage. Eldritch Glaive + Weapon Finesse = Iterative Attacks as a full-round action + swarm attack, assuming you have some other way to move (Travel Devotion, Hustle, Threefold Mask of the Chimera). Use Confound the Big Folk to enter an opponent's square, Eldritch Blast + swarm damage. Next round, unload Eldritch Glaive + swarm damage. And the target is flat-footed, so you could add some sneak attack or Craven in there for more damage.

Nice. I'll consider it. I'll definitely have to look into the various Standard Action special abilities that I generally ignore.


Swarms cannot grapple?

Whoops, right you are.

PlzBreakMyCmpAn
2010-01-27, 02:59 AM
You gain the swarm subtype, but retain your normal type. So if someone has Favored Enemy (Humanoid, Whatever) they could still Swift Hunter me. But I doubt the DM would pull that on me unless he decides that we're being chased by a bounty hunter for some reason.Hehe. That's funny; the whole reason I brought that up is because without a RAI DM even swift hunters can't normally precision damage most swarms.


To be honest, I wouldn't bog down your DM with this soulmeld. Dragon is notorious with their balance problems, and this shows they didn't think things through (at least they had the common sense to put it on your Heart Chakra and not the Totem). You said this DM was wary of Incarnum, and this would likely put him off of it fairly quickly.Good advice. Take our composite as your go-to interpretation, Person Man.


As a sparrow, a fine-sized swarm is immune to weapon damageThe DM might go RAI and say its only for fine base-sized creatures. I'm not sure how I feel about that.

Person_Man
2010-01-27, 11:49 AM
Thanks for the good advice guys. I think I'm going to drop the whole thing for our next game session, and not use it until everyone is more familiar with Incarnum.

Interestingly enough, the more I read the book and chart out the soulmelds, the more I realize that there are tons of potential hidden combos available. But by the same token, not a lot of them come from Heart or Soul chakra binds, which are supposedly your most powerful abilities. It's weird.

Thrawn183
2010-01-27, 11:59 AM
I'd make sure to have a decent Dex build with evasion. Probably through the magic ring that grants it.

I'm sure there are lots of ways to pull of some offense, but don't forget to shore up that weakness.