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View Full Version : common DM mistake, no magic mart TM



taltamir
2010-01-19, 03:18 PM
A common thing I see (especially on the forums) are DMs who say "there is no magic mart", you can't just leaf through the books and buy whatever your heart desires (combined often with very low wealth campaigns).

Common reasons include realism (in DnD?), and nerfing the wizard oddly enough (the thought is, he cannot just find any scroll he wishes; it is wrong).
The actual end result of this is hurting the beatsticks, who were balanced with WBL and unlimited access to magic marts where they can buy a diverse and effective loadout of magic items. A wizard's (or any caster) class abilities can replicate any magic item of choice for a set duration (and even do things magic items cannot).

Another issue is control over the party power, the DM then hands out rewards s/he chooses, adjusting the party's power via items to match what he thinks is appropriate for the adventure. This sort of approach is heavy handed and usually results in uneven distribution of rewards and resulting resentment (why did I only get X while he got X, Y, Z, G and H!). Especially if the DM is using unequal rewards to balance out classes of vastly differing power.

All that being said, it makes sense to not have magic marts for various reasons, especially making a realistic non tippyverse world. But for it work mechanically would require drastic alterations to the rules and class balance; which often do not accompany such a change, or are also done incorrectly.

FishAreWet
2010-01-19, 03:21 PM
I agree with this completely.

Magic marts help everyone, but not equally.

And from a 'common sense' standpoint, it all depends. No, there is not a magic mart in the 150 population town that gets raided by Goblins. But in a planar metropolis? yeah, there is.

Indon
2010-01-19, 03:23 PM
If I'm not mistaken, random loot (as opposed to loot on demand or a complete lootless game) favors non-casters simply because the majority of magic items are not caster-oriented, and casters don't generally benefit from items that duplicate spells anyway.

Kylarra
2010-01-19, 03:24 PM
...who were balanced with WBL and unlimited access to magic marts...I laughed, as I often do when people cite inherent balance in 3.X.

In my campaigns, barring trips to Sigil and similar major magic-o-tropolises, you probably won't be able to buy whatever you want. Availability will be roughly based on what sort of city you're in. You can however make trips to said sigil-clones to have a wider selection of goods, or hire a wizard (or similar full caster) to custom craft one for you.

FishAreWet
2010-01-19, 03:24 PM
If I'm not mistaken, random loot (as opposed to loot on demand or a complete lootless game) favors non-casters simply because the majority of magic items are not caster-oriented, and casters don't generally benefit from items that duplicate spells anyway.

Almost every book has magic items in it. Random loot tables only pull from DMG.

valadil
2010-01-19, 03:28 PM
I generally limit the upper bounds on what can be purchased in a given town. ie, it will have all magic items up to 4000gp and all scrolls up to second level. Unless I'm limiting things for some specific reason going any finer grained than that is more tedious than it's worth.

Satyr
2010-01-19, 03:32 PM
The question is not realism, but dramaturgy. The supernatural is supposed to be not a natural occurance. That's why it is supernatural. If the magic stuff becomes too common it becomes boring, and that is something of the worst things you can possibly do to a fantasy setting - making it dull. That is the same reason why I think it is mandatory to make wizards and other spellcasters rare and nerf them hard enough that the lack of magical items not a concern anymore.

Deepblue706
2010-01-19, 03:32 PM
I think it particularly helps Fighters more than most other classes, if not the most. Their feats are generally hard to acquire through money, but just about everything everyone else has can be bought to some degree.

But, I still mostly give out most loot at random, in dungeons. Partly because I love rolling dice on random tables, and partly because I like putting the players into an uncomfortable position; in this case using items they may not be familiar with. I find it keeps things fresh.

Still, I have opportunities to buy just about anything, exchanging whatever silly loot comes their way. It's just you generally have to go to The Big City, which itself at some levels has its own costs in opportunity, effort and time. After that point it just becomes a matter of traveling to where the Bigger Magic Mart is.

Indon
2010-01-19, 03:32 PM
Almost every book has magic items in it. Random loot tables only pull from DMG.

That's not necessarily a bad thing.

Would you want a dagger of Incarnum stabbing +2 as random loot for your party? Probably not.

jokey665
2010-01-19, 03:33 PM
No, there is not a magic mart in the 150 population town that gets raided by Goblins. But in a planar metropolis? yeah, there is.

This. In a small town I might say they have one minor magic item and roll to see what it is, but when my players head to Sigil or Union or something I basically let them get whatever they can afford.

Glimbur
2010-01-19, 03:34 PM
If I'm not mistaken, random loot (as opposed to loot on demand or a complete lootless game) favors non-casters simply because the majority of magic items are not caster-oriented, and casters don't generally benefit from items that duplicate spells anyway.

Casters can make their own magic items, and don't have to depend on Boots of Flying or Wings of Flying or what have you to fly.

Yuki Akuma
2010-01-19, 03:34 PM
The question is not realism, but dramaturgy. The supernatural is supposed to be not a natural occurance. That's why it is supernatural. If the magic stuff becomes too common it becomes boring, and that is something of the worst things you can possibly do to a fantasy setting - making it dull. That is the same reason why I think it is mandatory to make wizards and other spellcasters rare and nerf them hard enough that the lack of magical items not a concern anymore.

But in the default D&D campaign settings (at least for 3.5), magic is common. There are entire PC races with spell-like abilities!

Sinfire Titan
2010-01-19, 03:35 PM
If I'm not mistaken, random loot (as opposed to loot on demand or a complete lootless game) favors non-casters simply because the majority of magic items are not caster-oriented, and casters don't generally benefit from items that duplicate spells anyway.

The person who benefits the most from random treasure is, in fact, the Artificer. He's able to turn that garbage into useful items the party needs most, whereas the Fighter can just toss that Balor's +1 Vorpal Greatsword into the trash (along with every other magic armor/weapon not specifically designed for his abilities and feats).


Full casters? Don't care about random treasure save for wands, scrolls, and the occasional ring/rod. Potions are ignored outright, and most "Wondrous" items aren't actually all that impressive. Armor and Weapons mean almost nothing to the Full Casters.

There's a reason an Artificer is capable of recovering from being hit by a Disjunction spell almost as easily as the casters do.

Indon
2010-01-19, 03:35 PM
Casters can make their own magic items, and don't have to depend on Boots of Flying or Wings of Flying or what have you to fly.

I imagine a campaign which nerfs on-demand magic items for purchase is likely to nerf on-demand magic item factories as well.

Person_Man
2010-01-19, 03:37 PM
My groups used to role play shopping for magic items. You had to find a large enough community (which is quite hard to do in some game worlds), locate the appropriate store (again, hard to do if the setting fears/hates/distrusts magic), occassionally go on side quests (to gain entrance to a specific guild that controls access to said store), see if he had the item in stock and/or wait and/or travel to another store if he doesn't, and then barter for the price you want or go on another side quest to get it.

In my personal experience, this is a good thing to do for low level and/or beginner groups, because it gives them low danger quests and acquaints them with the game world. But for veterans, it's basically just a massive hassle. Now in all of my games, every large city has a magic Walmart, towns have magic boutique stores, and small villages have at least one magic traveling salesman.

Sleepingbear
2010-01-19, 03:41 PM
I don't think I have magic marts as such in any of my games.

That isn't to say that magic isn't for sale.

A lowly village may have a cleric who may be able to brew some curing potions or else recieves shipments of same from the big church in the city.

If the village has a wizard, odds are he's willing to scribe some low level scrolls for a price.

When you get into the big cities, the churches are going to have someone within their organization who can brew potions. Another to craft wands. Another to craft staffs and so on. They may likely be willing to do so for a sizable donation from those of the same faith or have done the church some favor.

Wizards are going to be more willing to scribe scrolls (usually two or three levels below the highest level they can cast, keeping the best for themselves). There will be some wizards who have set up shop to sell their services (dispel magic, scry, remove curse, break enchantment, identify and so on). Some wizards will have collected some odds and ends from their adventures they no long want. Same goes for other adventuring groups. And of course there is the option to have something commissioned once a crafting mage is found.

Nobles are another source of magic items. Many nobles are either former adventurers or descended from adventurers. Many also deal with adventurers on a frequent basis.

Basically players have two choices. They can shop around and see what is available. When they find it, they can then haggle over the price which may be in gold, other magic items or favors. Or they can find someone capable of crafting what they want. When they find them, they can then haggle over the price which may be in gold, other magic items or favors.

Really, it's about the game world and acquisition of magic items making sense. Beyond that, I have nothing against the commerce of magic items. I don't even have a serious objection to a lot of it being assumed behind the scenes between adventures for the sake of speed and convienence.

Longcat
2010-01-19, 03:41 PM
The question is not realism, but dramaturgy. The supernatural is supposed to be not a natural occurance. That's why it is supernatural. If the magic stuff becomes too common it becomes boring, and that is something of the worst things you can possibly do to a fantasy setting - making it dull. That is the same reason why I think it is mandatory to make wizards and other spellcasters rare and nerf them hard enough that the lack of magical items not a concern anymore.

Are you referring to normal D&D, or some low-magic setting? Magic in standard D&D is supposed to be common, and the default party assumed by the creator consists of 50% spellcasters.

FishAreWet
2010-01-19, 03:45 PM
The question is not realism, but dramaturgy. The supernatural is supposed to be not a natural occurance. That's why it is supernatural. If the magic stuff becomes too common it becomes boring, and that is something of the worst things you can possibly do to a fantasy setting - making it dull. That is the same reason why I think it is mandatory to make wizards and other spellcasters rare and nerf them hard enough that the lack of magical items not a concern anymore.

Well that's the setting you play it. Certainly not Fae'run or Eberron...

Hell, every single gnome can cast magic innately! That's from PHB!

Gnaeus
2010-01-19, 03:46 PM
If I'm not mistaken, random loot (as opposed to loot on demand or a complete lootless game) favors non-casters

You are mistaken.


simply because the majority of magic items are not caster-oriented,

There are several big magic item charts (Scrolls, Wands, Staves) that are only of value for casters.

Many casters are just as happy to have a non caster item as the non-caster is. A cleric is delighted to get an armor roll. Anyone will enjoy a ring of protection or resistance. There are very few items that are actually non-caster only, like exotic weapons, and your spiked chain tripper isn't going to be jumping for joy at the sight of a +1 urgrosh. Your charger might pick up the magical bow, but it isn't what he was dreaming of.


and casters don't generally benefit from items that duplicate spells anyway.

Huh? Casters love items that duplicate spells. That lets them memorize other, different spells. Can your rogue swap out his evasion if he finds a ring of it? Can the barbarian drop his DR if he finds some Adamantine armor?

And the biggest reason. Any item a caster feels he needs, he can spend a feat and MAKE. If a fighter needs a certain item, and he can't buy it or find it randomly, he is just stuck, unless he can find a caster willing to make it for him.


I imagine a campaign which nerfs on-demand magic items for purchase is likely to nerf on-demand magic item factories as well.

Your imagination is limited. I have never been in a campaign where the DM said, "You can't take Craft Wondrous Items", and I have been in plenty where there were no magic marts.

Anyway, half of Glimbur's point was that the caster can fly without a magic item.

Satyr
2010-01-19, 03:50 PM
Are you referring to normal D&D, or some low-magic setting? Magic in standard D&D is supposed to be common, and the default party assumed by the creator consists of 50% spellcasters.

I am refering to fantasy in general, including D&D. And there is a vast difference between the player party and the world as a whole - PCs are ipso facto exceptional. I have no problem with spellcasters as PCs in principle. I have a problem with spotlight stealing, but that is another issue altogether (but one that is usually linked specifically to spellcasters in D&D).

Tinydwarfman
2010-01-19, 03:50 PM
Actually when we play, I think you can get any equipment, but wands and scrolls are rolled for randomly. That being said, our GM gives us much more powerful things when we are out adventuring, or for plot/story reasons.
(e.g. we found an amazing deal on +4 bracers of armor, but we were really low level, so it would expend like all of our resources)

Indon
2010-01-19, 03:52 PM
There are several big magic item charts (Scrolls, Wands, Staves) that are only of value for casters.
I had the impression they didn't come up as often as other categories of magic item.


Huh? Casters love items that duplicate spells. That lets them memorize other, different spells. Can your rogue swap out his evasion if he finds a ring of it? Can the barbarian drop his DR if he finds some Adamantine armor?
Arcane casters outside of magic mart games are going to have a lot fewer spells to choose from. Though, indeed, the Cleric and the Druid don't suffer nearly as much from this - and also, they have fewer utility spells and those utility spells they have are less frequently duplicated by magic items anyway.

Edit:

Your imagination is limited. I have never been in a campaign where the DM said, "You can't take Craft Wondrous Items", and I have been in plenty where there were no magic marts.

You need to do both to get rid of the magic mart.


Anyway, half of Glimbur's point was that the caster can fly without a magic item.

Insofar as the CR system does function, I'm pretty sure it's not reliant on everyone having flight.

Superglucose
2010-01-19, 03:53 PM
But for it work mechanically would require drastic alterations to the rules and class balance; which often do not accompany such a change, or are also done incorrectly.
Correct.

The main, humungous, ginormous, insane mistake I see practically every GM who freaks out about magic items make is this:

They do not give wealth by level.

Encounter levels and CRs are BASED on a 5th level party with 5th level loot. A CR 5 encounter will be difficult for a 5th level party with 2nd level loot. GMs need to understand this, but for whatever reason they don't and it drives me bonkers.

taltamir
2010-01-19, 03:58 PM
Arcane casters outside of magic mart games are going to have a lot fewer spells to choose from. Though, indeed, the Cleric and the Druid don't suffer nearly as much from this - and also, they have fewer utility spells and those utility spells they have are less frequently duplicated by magic items anyway.

1. Collegiate wizard
2. Elven generalist
3. a scroll is cheap and small and easier to justify than an expensive rare magic item.
4. track down another wizard, offer to trade spells.
5. Even if all the above is nerfed, 2 spells known per level still go quite a long way in versatility.


I am refering to fantasy in general, including D&D. And there is a vast difference between the player party and the world as a whole - PCs are ipso facto exceptional. I have no problem with spellcasters as PCs in principle. I have a problem with spotlight stealing, but that is another issue altogether (but one that is usually linked specifically to spellcasters in D&D).

the irony is, that spotlight "hogging" is greatly exacerbated by the mistakes I have posted about in my original post of this thread.


Encounter levels and CRs are BASED on a 5th level party with 5th level loot. A CR 5 encounter will be difficult for a 5th level party with 2nd level loot. GMs need to understand this, but for whatever reason they don't and it drives me bonkers.

Accurate, and it works both ways too... a 5th party with a scroll of gate can do quite a lot more than a 5th level party should.

Tavar
2010-01-19, 03:59 PM
Actually, the chance to get Caster only magic items is greater than the chance to get "Melee only"(weapons and armor) items, and that's not even going into the fact that pretty much any caster can use any scrolls, wand, staff, or rod, while armor or weapons are highly dependent on individual builds. Really, Random WBL is just an excuse to screw over melee.

JaronK
2010-01-19, 04:00 PM
Plus, "melee only" loot works on pets like undead. My Dread Necromancer often takes the trash random loot that we get and puts it on Awakened Zombies and the like.

JaronK

taltamir
2010-01-19, 04:03 PM
Plus, "melee only" loot works on pets like undead. My Dread Necromancer often takes the trash random loot that we get and puts it on Awakened Zombies and the like.

JaronK

astute observation, I had not considered that. Give that belt of strength to the druids companion.


Actually, the chance to get Caster only magic items is greater than the chance to get "Melee only"(weapons and armor) items, and that's not even going into the fact that pretty much any caster can use any scrolls, wand, staff, or rod, while armor or weapons are highly dependent on individual builds. Really, Random WBL is just an excuse to screw over melee.

A very common build for melee is a fighter with weapon specialization line...
so you have invested 5+ feats that work with one and ONLY ONE type of weapon... what is the chance of the chart giving you one that is better than the one you have? the charts don't even HAVE weapons made out of exotic materials with SMART enchantment choices.
Melee *have* to sell all the junk they loot to buy a custom weapon for the build, from a custom exotic material (adamantium, mithral, etc), with a custom set of good enchantments.

oh yea, and +1/2/3/4/5 bonuses on weapons suck, worst enchantment you can get. You want good enchantments and then have your cleric or wizard cast "greater magic weapon" on your weapon in the morning (to give it a level appropriate + bonus)

Satyr
2010-01-19, 04:11 PM
the irony is, that spotlight "hogging" is greatly exacerbated by the mistakes I have posted about in my original post of this thread. #

That's why the general power level of spellcasters should be related to the availibility of cool stuff for mundane people; Yes, when spellcasters are very powerful and common (again, that is not the best idea, because it usually achieves the opposite of what it intends to do, namely making the game more interesting through magic), then you practically need loads of magical items as a patch to close the gap. If you reduce the number of available items, you should also reduce the power of spellcasters. I fuly agree that taking away the cool toys for fighters and leaving the wizards untouched is generally a bad idea.

taltamir
2010-01-19, 04:13 PM
That's why the general power level of spellcasters should be related to the availibility of cool stuff for mundane people; Yes, when spellcasters are very powerful and common (again, that is not the best idea, because it usually achieves the opposite of what it intends to do, namely making the game more interesting through magic), then you practically need loads of magical items as a patch to close the gap. If you reduce the number of available items, you should also reduce the power of spellcasters. I fuly agree that taking away the cool toys for fighters and leaving the wizards untouched is generally a bad idea.

but with such drastic changes, are you even still playing DnD?

Choco
2010-01-19, 04:15 PM
but with such drastic changes, are you even still playing DnD?

4e :smallbiggrin:

4e cleaned this up nicely. The classes are balanced without any magic items. The books even said there are no magic marts for anything but the most common low level items (and the City of Brass).

Everything else you gotta quest for or create yourself, which aint a big deal because creating magic items costs just as much as buying them on the market.

Gnaeus
2010-01-19, 04:16 PM
I had the impression they didn't come up as often as other categories of magic item.

DMG:
Minor: 9% armor/weapons, 44% scrolls/wands,
Medium: 20% armor/weapons, 33% scrolls/staffs/wands
Major: 20% armor/weapons, 35% scrolls/staffs/wands

Then there are the rods, which look about 50% like caster only (all the metamagic ones)

So you are more likely to get caster-only loot than melee-only loot.


Arcane casters outside of magic mart games are going to have a lot fewer spells to choose from.

Yes, I wouldn't play an archivist without a magic mart. 2 spells per level is enough for wizards to be effective, even assuming that you nerf his other spell acquisition options (finding spellbooks, trading spells with other casters, PRCs.)


Though, indeed, the Cleric and the Druid don't suffer nearly as much from this - and also, they have fewer utility spells and those utility spells they have are less frequently duplicated by magic items anyway.

Clerics and Druids have more utility spells than I can count. The statement that their spells are less frequently duplicated by items, if true, makes low magic item availability even better for them, because it means that they have tricks that no one else can duplicate.



You need to do both to get rid of the magic mart.

Maybe you make both rules go together, but in my experience most DMs don't.



Insofar as the CR system does function, I'm pretty sure it's not reliant on everyone having flight.

So how does the meleer deal with all those flying enemies? The high CRs are stacked with them. I mean, you can pull out your bow, and plink them for d8+5 or whatever if they aren't also casters who can wind wall, but that isn't very satisfying (or useful) for your power attacking barbarian.

And flight is only one example. Energy resistances. Resistance to hostile magics. Grapple immunity. These are all things that the caster can just DO if he decides that he wants to on any given morning. The non-caster has to have very specific items if he wants to negate these attack forms, or dozens of others.

Vizzerdrix
2010-01-19, 04:20 PM
This is silly thinking. Giving the beatsticks full access to whatever magic items they want balances nothing, cause then the casters get it too. No. NOT having access to a magi-mart helps close the power gap. See, this way, you slow the caster's power by taking item creation feats and burning up xp.

Yuki Akuma
2010-01-19, 04:25 PM
This is silly thinking. Giving the beatsticks full access to whatever magic items they want balances nothing, cause then the casters get it too. No. NOT having access to a magi-mart helps close the power gap. See, this way, you slow the caster's power by taking item creation feats and burning up xp.

Or they could, you know, not taking magic item creation feats because they don't need any magic items they can make for themselves - or they just take Craft Wand, which is totally useless to anyone else.

taltamir
2010-01-19, 04:27 PM
This is silly thinking. Giving the beatsticks full access to whatever magic items they want balances nothing, cause then the casters get it too. No. NOT having access to a magi-mart helps close the power gap. See, this way, you slow the caster's power by taking item creation feats and burning up xp.

1. but the beatsticks get so much more out of it... or rather, the beatsticks need it so much more to function.
2. XP is a river.
3. Or the caster can choose not to take said feat and be uber with spells alone without any magic items...

in a recent campaign my level 11 wizard (nerfed to single school) had a +1 spear, a spellbook, and a +2 headband of int. He had a ring of +1 too for a moment, but sold so he could afford the 100 gp to bind his familiar (improved)... and honestly he could have done without any of those items (except the spellbook, that he needed). The fighters however, could not do without magic items (of which they had much more, up to and including artifacts; as in literally artifacts)

Casters don't NEED magic items, and all they get from one is basically 1 extra free slot of whatever level the spell that duplicated said item was.

Eldariel
2010-01-19, 04:49 PM
This is silly thinking. Giving the beatsticks full access to whatever magic items they want balances nothing, cause then the casters get it too. No. NOT having access to a magi-mart helps close the power gap. See, this way, you slow the caster's power by taking item creation feats and burning up xp.

Uh, casters don't really need any magic items. Martialists kinda do. And Item Creation...you're basically saying it WEAKENS casters to be able to choose whichever items they want and create themselves? That argument just plain does not hold water whatsoever anywhere. Sure they have to pay XP and feat to do it, but it's an OPTION and they CAN do it.

They don't have to; then they're on the same grounds as your martial guys who can't hit incorporeals at all and can't fly and can't shore up their bad saves and so on. Sure, casters lack Beads of Karma and Orange Prism Ioun Stones and Metamagic Rods, but they're fine without. Those help especially with party buffs, especially, but not having them doesn't remove the caster's most important resource, spells.

Gnaeus
2010-01-19, 04:50 PM
Or they could, you know, not taking magic item creation feats because they don't need any magic items they can make for themselves - or they just take Craft Wand, which is totally useless to anyone else.

Or even worse, they can take the crafting feat and use it to become better at what should be the fighter's game than the fighter.

A druid's pet with a bunch of crafted equipment will OWN a fighter with random loot. A cleric with crafted weapons and armor can be clearly superior to a fighter using random loot, before buffing.

shadow_archmagi
2010-01-19, 04:52 PM
I find it very humorous that mistake is spelled wrong in the title.

elonin
2010-01-19, 05:05 PM
If supply and demand were working in a dnd world I wonder if there would be any potions? It's difficult to imagine that many people would make potions since its such a poor money returner. By the same token buying an item of flying would be easier since I can see people making such an item then selling it once they outgrew it.

Are there tables incorporating sources outside of dmg, maybe including completes and spell compendium for scrolls and magic compendium for items? If not then classes that come from non phb would suffer.

Gnaeus
2010-01-19, 05:12 PM
If supply and demand were working in a dnd world I wonder if there would be any potions? It's difficult to imagine that many people would make potions since its such a poor money returner. By the same token buying an item of flying would be easier since I can see people making such an item then selling it once they outgrew it.


There would be a lot of low level caster types that could only make potions or scrolls, and might choose to take potions over scrolls to benefit from the wider market.

If you are low level (and most potions are CL 5 or below) and you already have the brew potion feat (because you got it at level 1) you might not take another crafting feat, or you might make potions until you got to be high enough level to get the feat you wanted.

The one that bugs me is, why are there so many low level rings? You have to be absurdly powerful to take craft rings, so why would the 12th level casters bother making such low level junk.

shadow_archmagi
2010-01-19, 05:15 PM
its such a poor money returner.

I was under the impression that all magic items cost precisely half their market value to craft, which would mean that as long as there was a market for DRINKING potions, making potions would be exactly as profitable as making ultra doomhats. (Well, technically, since no magic item can be made in less than a day, and they take 1 day per x gold, you'd ideally want magic items that rounded out even so that you didn't end up spending an extra day to work out that last 4 gp. But that's a minor factor.)

Tyndmyr
2010-01-19, 05:17 PM
Another issue is control over the party power, the DM then hands out rewards s/he chooses, adjusting the party's power via items to match what he thinks is appropriate for the adventure.

No matter what they say the reason is, this is almost invariably the real reason. DMs that avoid reasonable access to magic items(ie, roughly in accordance with DMG rules.) typically tend to be those with the idea that they MUST control the campaign. Occasionally you get one that thinks dirt poverty = gritty.

Fun solutions include playing an artificer, or a wizard with an item crafting feat or two. Yay, problem solved. Now, this is when the control happy DMs reveal themselves by reaching for the banhammer.

If you do end up gaming with one of these creatures, the correct way to deal with them is by burning them with fire pulling them aside to explain that you're playing D&D because you enjoy D&D, and the rules that make it up. You didn't ask to play "Abject Poverty Simulator 2000".

Superglucose
2010-01-19, 05:29 PM
No matter what they say the reason is, this is almost invariably the real reason. DMs that avoid reasonable access to magic items(ie, roughly in accordance with DMG rules.) typically tend to be those with the idea that they MUST control the campaign. Occasionally you get one that thinks dirt poverty = gritty.
Magic shops aren't necessary. I would be ok with a GM who said there were no magic shops, but would give me reasonable access to useful items for the party guaranteed in each piece of loot. Sure picking up useless items sucks, but as my friend said ok he's just some jerk I used to game with and wanted to burn in a pit of fire, but he had a good point: finding an item no one in the party can use is part of the fun. No risk, no reward.

Still, I would say that at least one piece of magical equipment in the loot should be useful to some member of the party. I don't really care *which* member of the party (preference to melee users maybe) but just something so that it's not all "bag of tricks." A good example is right here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0130.html), where they pulled a Ring of Wizardry and a Amulet of Natural Armor. Sure the other three were so bad as to not be worth mentioning, but that's part of the fun!

Either that or give access to MagicMarttm



If you do end up gaming with one of these creatures, the correct way to deal with them is by burning them with fire pulling them aside to explain that you're playing D&D because you enjoy D&D, and the rules that make it up. You didn't ask to play "Abject Poverty Simulator 2000".
*tosses you a handful of copper*

DonEsteban
2010-01-19, 05:55 PM
The question is not realism, but dramaturgy. The supernatural is supposed to be not a natural occurance. That's why it is supernatural. If the magic stuff becomes too common it becomes boring, and that is something of the worst things you can possibly do to a fantasy setting - making it dull. That is the same reason why I think it is mandatory to make wizards and other spellcasters rare and nerf them hard enough that the lack of magical items not a concern anymore.

Are you referring to normal D&D, or some low-magic setting? Magic in standard D&D is supposed to be common, and the default party assumed by the creator consists of 50% spellcasters.

Well, D&D hasn't always been the D&D you seem to refer to. I think people who reduce magic are trying to get back to a game where magic is something special. By introducing the magic mart idea and easy item creation, the magic somehow lost its... well its magic!

I'm not saying this is the "right" D&D, and people are probably right when they say that just reducing magic item does not work but the idea behind it is still worth trying. From what I hear, 4e tries to get back to this point and that's the first really good thing I've heard about 4e...

AslanCross
2010-01-19, 05:57 PM
I still stick to the "this city only carries items of up to X GP" guideline. This prevents them buying anything they want, but at the same time gives them opportunities to augment their gear.

Pigkappa
2010-01-19, 05:59 PM
My groups used to role play shopping for magic items. You had to find a large enough community (which is quite hard to do in some game worlds), locate the appropriate store (again, hard to do if the setting fears/hates/distrusts magic), occassionally go on side quests (to gain entrance to a specific guild that controls access to said store), see if he had the item in stock and/or wait and/or travel to another store if he doesn't, and then barter for the price you want or go on another side quest to get it.

In my personal experience, this is a good thing to do for low level and/or beginner groups, because it gives them low danger quests and acquaints them with the game world.

I think this could be good for high-level parties too. If a level 15 character wants to buy a +4 full armor he just has to reach a big city and ask around, and will probably get that. But if he says "Wow, I saved money for 5 levels, now I can finally afford a +5 Strength book", since there are probably just one or two of those books in the whole world, and 0 of them for sale, I wouldn't give that to him easily. It could also turn out that that item doesn't exist in the world - after all, there are hundreds of different magic items in the various D&D handbooks, most of which are difficult to make; I find it quite unlikely for all of them to exist in the same city.

Tavar
2010-01-19, 05:59 PM
I object to the thought that Bags of Holding are useless, especially to a thief.

tyckspoon
2010-01-19, 06:08 PM
Well, D&D hasn't always been the D&D you seem to refer to. I think people who reduce magic are trying to get back to a game where magic is something special. By introducing the magic mart idea and easy item creation, the magic somehow lost its... well its magic!


Honestly? Yes, it was. Greyhawk was stuffed full of magic items. So was Forgotten Realms. You'd find a half a dozen pieces of magical gear and a dozen more potions in almost every adventure module, even when you'd have to be clinically insane to be an item crafter with the rules presented in the books. All 3E did was tilt the focus of item acquisition a little away from "you use whatever silly crap you find" and toward "you can trade for or make what you really wanted", and even that isn't all that new- Sigil, the City of Brass, and planar traveling spells are not 3rd Edition creations. D&D magic has never, in practice of the official publications, been a rare and special thing (well, ok, Dark Sun and a few other settings specifically built to be that way. But the most popular settings? Magic allllll over the place.)

Delwugor
2010-01-19, 06:11 PM
But for it work mechanically would require drastic alterations to the rules and class balance; which often do not accompany such a change, or are also done incorrectly.
I run low magic campaigns and don't require drastic changes to rules.
This may seem like a mistake in others eyes but my players have never complained about it. So for me and my players this is a style decision and not a mistake.

oxybe
2010-01-19, 06:12 PM
actually, in 4th ed it's cheaper to make magic items then to buy them. the PHB suggests that most items are sold at a 10-40% markup then the price listed. most people, however, seem to forget that. i don't... :smallbiggrin:

but yeah, in 3rd & 4th ed, the game assumes that access to magic items & their purchase is normal. 4th ed does support the "low magic" setting though in the DMG2, through the inherent bonuses (if i remember it's at level 2/7/12/17/22/27) you get a +1 bonus, and all weapons/armor/neck are considered items of that that +value. so instead you get just a "Flaming Longsword" instead of a "+4 flaming longsword". in the hands of a level 5 PC it's a +1 weapon and a +5 weapon in the hands of a 25th level PC.

you can also use the Divine Boons & Training in the DMG 2 to supplement this so that even if you're using simple chainmail + longsword, you're still at about your level's worth of efficiency.

this can be implemented in 3rd ed, it just works in a weird way (due to how magic items are made, since it can't be assumed that any 2 given enchantments will be of the same +bonus worth).

DonEsteban
2010-01-19, 06:14 PM
D&D magic has never, in practice of the official publications, been a rare and special thing (well, ok, Dark Sun and a few other settings specifically built to be that way. But the most popular settings? Magic allllll over the place.)

You're probably right. What I specifically had in mind was the AD&D PHB/DMG, which states that magic items are nothing you can buy. I tend to see the abundance of magic in campaign settings and novels as something of a misconception. Again, there's nothing wrong with it if you're happy with it.

Drakevarg
2010-01-19, 07:03 PM
You didn't ask to play "Abject Poverty Simulator 2000".

I did. I hate being rich and influencial. I want to be a poor, obscure badass who wanders into town, solves all their problems with violence, then wanders off.

On a side note, I need to get my character a poncho.

Runestar
2010-01-19, 07:28 PM
So I am the only one who let my party access thayan enclaves at 1st lv? :smalleek:

tyckspoon
2010-01-19, 07:34 PM
So I am the only one who let my party access thayan enclaves at 1st lv? :smalleek:

The party can certainly look for one; the chances they can afford anything being sold there is vanishingly low unless they've stumbled onto one of the few Thayan traders who bothers dealing in extremely minor magics like Panic Buttons and Chronocharms (excepting scrolls and potions- I generally figure and play that low-level scrolls and potions require no special effort to acquire, as is fitting for something that is within the GP limit of anything worth calling a town.)

taltamir
2010-01-19, 07:40 PM
I find it very humorous that mistake is spelled wrong in the title.

mitsake is not a misspelling, its a typographical error. (typo).

Weezer
2010-01-19, 08:03 PM
but with such drastic changes, are you even still playing DnD?

I might be wrong but I have a feeling that in Satyr's case he's no longer playing Dungeons and Dragons but Serpents and Sewers. :smallbiggrin:

taltamir
2010-01-19, 08:19 PM
I might be wrong but I have a feeling that in Satyr's case he's no longer playing Dungeons and Dragons but Serpents and Sewers. :smallbiggrin:

i hope this is not as dirty as it sounds :)

Superglucose
2010-01-19, 08:33 PM
5. Even if all the above is nerfed, 2 spells known per level still go quite a long way in versatility.
2 spells known per level means 4 spells known per spell level, less than a sorc, and this is how I've always had to play wizards :smallyuk:



the irony is, that spotlight "hogging" is greatly exacerbated by the mistakes I have posted about in my original post of this thread.

Oh yeah, for sure. In my game WBL went from 3k to 300, which leaves me hogging the spotlight just so our party can survive.

Dyllan
2010-01-19, 08:34 PM
I've been doing something different in my campaign. There's one Magic Mart, but it doesn't have everything. It has a specific inventory. If the party sells stuff, the shop puts it up for stock. Between sessions, I roll up random loot to be sold to the shop, and also go through one or two modules I'm not using and pull loot from it (as if another party has sold stuff they found). I also roll to see what was purchased from the shop's current inventory.

I've even kept a running tab on the shop's cash reserves. As a result, the shop has grown with the party (each session I roll on charts for the party's level -1, the party's level and the party's level +1 for loot to be sold to the shop). This does mean the party doesn't have access to everything, but it can often have many things. And if I feel the need, I can cheat and put specific stuff I want the party to have into the shop (or keep specific items out, in theory... though I haven't done that).

The party cleric also has Craft Wonderous Item and Craft Magic Arms and Armor. She crafts for the whole party, and sells to the party at 75% of book value (meaning she makes a 25% of book value profit to offset her experience loss).

In all, it's worked out well. The party doesn't just get whatever they want for loot, but if they really want something, they will eventually get it. And shopping when they get back to town has become a fun part of the game instead of a bookkeeping chore.

tyckspoon
2010-01-19, 08:41 PM
2 spells known per level means 4 spells known per spell level, less than a sorc, and this is how I've always had to play wizards :smallyuk:


The sorcerer gets more spell slots. The Wizard is always ahead on spells known, at least in spell slots that matter (personally defined as your top two, sometimes three spell levels:) At level 3, the Wizard gets 2 level 2 spells. At level 4 he gets two more, for a total of four. At level 3 the Sorcerer has *none*. At level 4 he has 1. The Sorcerer does not catch up to the Wizard's 2nd level Spells Known until character level 9, at which time the Wizard is playing with 5th level spells and doesn't even care anymore.

Riffington
2010-01-19, 08:44 PM
I'm baffled by the dichotomy here: either there's magic mart or there's random loot? Really?

Clearly the DM should choose the items he gives out based partly on balance and party needs. The fighter should always get a cool sword. There's rarely a reason not to give those out. Whether the wizard gets bracers of armor or a headband of intellect... that might depend on what serves gameplay better.

Gnaeus
2010-01-19, 08:46 PM
I've been doing something different in my campaign. There's one Magic Mart, but it doesn't have everything. It has a specific inventory. If the party sells stuff, the shop puts it up for stock. Between sessions, I roll up random loot to be sold to the shop, and also go through one or two modules I'm not using and pull loot from it (as if another party has sold stuff they found). I also roll to see what was purchased from the shop's current inventory.

I wish my DM would do that. He allows a low percentage chance to purchase anything, often with a time delay for it to be procured. This leads to a lot of game time in town being:
"Can I get an A" (DM Rolls) "No"
Player checks book for another useful item he could afford.
"Can I get an B" (DM Rolls) "No"
Player checks book for another useful item he could afford.
"Can I get an C" (DM Rolls) "No"
Player checks book for another useful item he could afford.
"Can I get an D" (DM Rolls) "No"
Player checks book for another useful item he could afford.
"Can I get an E" (DM Rolls) "No"
Player checks book for another useful item he could afford.
"Can I get an F" (DM Rolls) "No"
Player checks book for another useful item he could afford.
"Can I get an G" (DM Rolls) "Yes"
Player recalculates gold and starts over.

I would love a simple list of what I could get. I keep asking "what do they have available" but it never works.

Weezer
2010-01-19, 08:46 PM
i hope this is not as dirty as it sounds :)

Only if you want it to be :smalltongue:

I was referring to the pretty major rewrite of 3.5 he did, called serpents and sewers. It can be found in his sig.

Thrawn183
2010-01-19, 09:09 PM
The saddest part is that direct damage from casters is usually most dependent upon gear. A summoner? Yeah, he might have a couple less spells per day with a lower casting stat, but the summoned creatures are still just as good as they would have been had he had gear.

The same goes for utility spells, buff spells, spells with no save, etc.

Kelb_Panthera
2010-01-19, 09:16 PM
Like others I'm curious how the mindset has come to be, "either there's a magic mart in every town, or there's only the random loot found in dungeons." The rules and *guidelines* (everybody loves to forget guidelines since they're not hard rules) in the DMG actually call for something between these extremes. Just because you can't get a +5 vorpal longsword in the thorpe near the dungeon you're delving doesn't mean there isn't one available anywhere. Only a fool sticks strictly to the random treasure tables without adjusting for his players' characters, especially if they're using material from splatbooks as the tables don't include these items (unless you've got MiC, which has virtually every magic item I've ever read about in another book, plus a few that you can't find elsewhere.) The designers assumed that some common sense would be used, rather than people sticking strictly to what's printed in the DMG. In-fact, I'm pretty sure I've read somewhere where the designers have actually made that statement, in either one of my myriad splatbooks or in an online article. As far as I can tell, the system only assumes you will have an armor, an enhancement booster to your primary ability score, a cloak of resistance, and either a magic weapon or otherwise offensive magic items of the same value as a level appropriate magic weapon.

Tavar
2010-01-19, 09:26 PM
Generally, because of how the argument is framed. The discussion usually is started when Low Magic games are brought up, specifically in that depriving the players the ability to get items outside of random chance somehow weakens the casters. This is usually countered, but in the process a sort of dicotomy is formed; either you don't allow items to be bought at all, or there's a Magic R Us in every town. From what I've seen, it's generally the pro-low magic side that creates this dichotomy, as the other side generally talks about the ability to buy very useful items easily, buy rare/more expensive items are harder to get.

JaronK
2010-01-19, 09:30 PM
I've seen few that claim there's no magic marts at all. Usually the argument goes like this:

A: That is not a problem, you just buy one of these!
B: But that item is situational, you might not have one on you. There isn't a magic mart around every corner.
A: Of course you can buy them in any big town!
B: You might not be in a town when you discover you need it! And you certainly can't gaurentee that you can always get it if it comes up!

So yeah, it's rarely "no magic marts vs magic marts exist" it's usually "magic marts aren't always there when you need them, and may be hard to find" vs "magic marts are around every corner."

Though I certainly agree that lack of said marts hurts less flexible classes (like melees) a lot more than more flexible ones.

JaronK

Riffington
2010-01-19, 09:32 PM
Generally, because of how the argument is framed. The discussion usually is started when Low Magic games are brought up, specifically in that depriving the players the ability to get items outside of random chance somehow weakens the casters. This is usually countered, but in the process a sort of dicotomy is formed; either you don't allow items to be bought at all, or there's a Magic R Us in every town. From what I've seen, it's generally the pro-low magic side that creates this dichotomy, as the other side generally talks about the ability to buy very useful items easily, buy rare/more expensive items are harder to get.

So, the "very useful items" category is pretty vague. If it includes "potion of Cure Light Wounds", sure - I don't think anyone argues that should be super hard to get. If it includes Headband of Intellect +6 and Anklets of Translocation... you've got a big believability problem. Namely: if all kinds of magic items are easily available for sale, then why does a merchant capable of protecting his loot against adventurers waste his time doing sales rather than adventuring?


Note that the absence of "magic marts" does not hurt "melee" or "magic". It hurts "whoever the DM considers overpowered".

olentu
2010-01-19, 09:39 PM
So, the "very useful items" category is pretty vague. If it includes "potion of Cure Light Wounds", sure - I don't think anyone argues that should be super hard to get. If it includes Headband of Intellect +6 and Anklets of Translocation... you've got a big believability problem. Namely: if all kinds of magic items are easily available for sale, then why does a merchant capable of protecting his loot against adventurers waste his time doing sales rather than adventuring?


Note that the absence of "magic marts" does not hurt "melee" or "magic". It hurts "whoever the DM considers overpowered".

Well obviously because his adventuring would be against stronger monsters and so would include a risk of dying greater then the risk that adventurers are going to storm his store and kill him.

Tavar
2010-01-19, 09:44 PM
Plus, if some adventurer's kill him, then other adventurer's will be after them, so not many would be foolish enough to do that.

And useful items are generally described as items that every character/every character of role X would want. So stat boosters, magic arms/armor, wands of lesser vigor/cure light wounds, cloak of resistance,etc. And while it's not always available for most of the above you can get them in any large city/settlement, or at least get them made. Yeah, you aren't getting it while traveling through random wilderness, but if you don't prepare before traveling in the wilderness, then you deserve what ever comes your way.

Sinfire Titan
2010-01-19, 09:56 PM
I've seen few that claim there's no magic marts at all. Usually the argument goes like this:

A: That is not a problem, you just buy one of these!
B: But that item is situational, you might not have one on you. There isn't a magic mart around every corner.
A: Of course you can buy them in any big town!
B: You might not be in a town when you discover you need it! And you certainly can't gaurentee that you can always get it if it comes up!

So yeah, it's rarely "no magic marts vs magic marts exist" it's usually "magic marts aren't always there when you need them, and may be hard to find" vs "magic marts are around every corner."

Though I certainly agree that lack of said marts hurts less flexible classes (like melees) a lot more than more flexible ones.

JaronK

Right.


My version of a Magic Mart is Sigil or the Outlands. There's enough people there that all you need to do is find the right person and pay up. Gather Information is a handy skill in those cases. Prior to that level, I usually have a friendly Artificer craft some of the goods they need or introduce a stable portal to the Outlands or a similar area, and tell the players they need to defend this region fairly well or risk losing access to the plane.

elonin
2010-01-19, 10:20 PM
There would be a lot of low level caster types that could only make potions or scrolls, and might choose to take potions over scrolls to benefit from the wider market.

If you are low level (and most potions are CL 5 or below) and you already have the brew potion feat (because you got it at level 1) you might not take another crafting feat, or you might make potions until you got to be high enough level to get the feat you wanted.

The one that bugs me is, why are there so many low level rings? You have to be absurdly powerful to take craft rings, so why would the 12th level casters bother making such low level junk.


Players don't take craft potion unless retraining rules are in play and maybe not even then. cheap rings are understandable since that ability scales (at least better than potions)

Emmerask
2010-01-19, 10:27 PM
A common thing I see (especially on the forums) are DMs who say "there is no magic mart", you can't just leaf through the books and buy whatever your heart desires (combined often with very low wealth campaigns).

Common reasons include realism (in DnD?), and nerfing the wizard oddly enough (the thought is, he cannot just find any scroll he wishes; it is wrong).
The actual end result of this is hurting the beatsticks, who were balanced with WBL and unlimited access to magic marts where they can buy a diverse and effective loadout of magic items. A wizard's (or any caster) class abilities can replicate any magic item of choice for a set duration (and even do things magic items cannot).


Itīs a campaign decision the dm must make and like all those there is no clear right or wrong.
And of course there is realism (or believability) in a campaign world which depending on your gaming group may be important.

The only mistake there is is on the players side feeling entitled to something because the DMG guidelines how things could be done says so.

Boci
2010-01-19, 10:38 PM
The only mistake there is is on the players side feeling entitled to something because the DMG guidelines how things could be done says so.

Technically the only mistake is the group not having fun.

Emmerask
2010-01-19, 10:42 PM
Technically the only mistake is the group not having fun.

Yes thats quite right but I was more talking about the pregaming campaign world decisions a gm makes but of course you should keep your groups interests at heart doing it and only do it if you think you will have fun with it too if not gm for another group ^^

Shhalahr Windrider
2010-01-19, 10:56 PM
You're probably right. What I specifically had in mind was the AD&D PHB/DMG, which states that magic items are nothing you can buy.
Yeah, that’s the problem. The DMG’s straight advice says one thing, but the examples, modules, and what actually works say another.

Seriously, those recommendations would have you go on a major quest over which time you lose and heal a cumulative total of 300 hit points just to get the ingredients to make two or three potions that heal 1d8 hp each? Something’s wrong there.


I tend to see the abundance of magic in campaign settings and novels as something of a misconception.
The availability of magic is part of the setting. If a setting describes magic as being common, it’s a design choice on the part of the person(s) that created the setting, not a misconception.

There is no rule that “Fantasy means magic is rare.” All that is required is the magic—in whatever form it may take—exists. Whether it is abundant or not is a matter of setting, not drama.

Riffington
2010-01-20, 12:08 AM
Well obviously because his adventuring would be against stronger monsters and so would include a risk of dying greater then the risk that adventurers are going to storm his store and kill him.

Why would he go against stronger monsters? Why not against monsters 2CR below his level? Still more profit/less risk than sitting around waiting in a store whose contents are worth more than the city itself just hoping that some vagabonds want to come buy his stuff and sell theirs.


Plus, if some adventurer's kill him, then other adventurer's will be after them, so not many would be foolish enough to do that.

Oh? A thousand people are murdered in a kingdom. One owns a magic item shop. You drop what you're doing and try to solve the mystery of the shopkeeper? Is this because murder matters more when it's rich people?

Tyndmyr
2010-01-20, 12:17 AM
Like others I'm curious how the mindset has come to be, "either there's a magic mart in every town, or there's only the random loot found in dungeons." The rules and *guidelines* (everybody loves to forget guidelines since they're not hard rules) in the DMG actually call for something between these extremes. Just because you can't get a +5 vorpal longsword in the thorpe near the dungeon you're delving doesn't mean there isn't one available anywhere.

This is true. I love how people assume that if there's no magic marts, you'll never be able to get wands and potions. Seriously, by the DMG, those are pretty reasonable to find, but expensive stuff is only really findable in heavily populated areas.

This strikes me as completely reasonable, and it's not really a burden on the players like so many "realistic" systems are.

Tavar
2010-01-20, 12:21 AM
Thousands may die, but they aren't thousands you know. Bob, the owner of the magic store in <city>, you do know. Plus, there's the whole government thing that can be troublesome. And yes, murders of rich people are more important, from a strictly logical perspective, as they are people with power and resources. It's not good when they start to get targeted, so others will put effort into finding who did it.


Oh, and how does he make sure that all his enemies are 2 cr's below his level? I thought there was a large, random element to it. Plus the fact that CR and Levels are an entirely meta-game concept, and while he might know the general strength of certain monsters, well, Monsters with class levels exist.

Kylarra
2010-01-20, 12:25 AM
Oh? A thousand people are murdered in a kingdom. One owns a magic item shop. You drop what you're doing and try to solve the mystery of the shopkeeper? Is this because murder matters more when it's rich people?Well, if you're a regular customer of said magic store owner and you're also a violent hobo adventurer, then yeah, you might go see who killed your supplier.

Superglucose
2010-01-20, 01:03 AM
Why'd you cross out Violent Hobo? :smallamused:

oxybe
2010-01-20, 01:35 AM
Well, if you're a regular customer of said magic store owner and you're also a violent hobo adventurer, then yeah, you might go see who killed your supplier.

i agree with Superglucose, why did you cross out violent hobo? that was the very character idea for my current 3.5 character!

JonestheSpy
2010-01-20, 01:53 AM
From what I've seen, it's generally the pro-low magic side that creates this dichotomy, as the other side generally talks about the ability to buy very useful items easily, buy rare/more expensive items are harder to get.

I don't know about sides, but what I notice is a marked tendency for folks to discuss builds, strategies, etc that are dependant on the assumption that they will automatically possess certain items - not to mention an element of dissing of some class abilities, feats, etc because they can be duplicated by an item, again with the assumption that anyone who can afford said item can get one. Debates start from there...

Lioness
2010-01-20, 01:55 AM
We have a system where the magic weapons/armour/other non-caster stuff is sold with their non-magical counterparts. You want a magical sword? Go to the sword shop and see whether they have one. Depending on the size of the city, and the type of shop, they either do or don't. Scrolls and wands are sold at a magic shop. Most cities have one, but it depends how much and what quality stock they will have.

Alternatively, if we're coming into the campaign at a higher level then 1, it's assumed that we've had the opportunity to gain super awesome stuffs (providing it's within the recommended gp allocation for the level) or our previous adventures. It also provides opportunity for backstory. 'Say, X, Where did you get that awesome sword of yours?'
'Oh, it happened on one of my previous adventures...'

taltamir
2010-01-20, 02:08 AM
The only mistake there is is on the players side feeling entitled to something because the DMG guidelines how things could be done says so.

entitlement? it is about having fun... and making some people in the party superfluous because you think it is more realistic ruins their fun.

the DM isn't your master, just a friend you are having fun with... in theory.

Sstoopidtallkid
2010-01-20, 02:11 AM
The DM isn't your master, just a friend you are having fun with... in theory.You just won yourself a cursed item, mister. Would you like to try for 2?

Yahzi
2010-01-20, 02:39 AM
My solution to magic marts is that you can expect to buy anything made by a 9th level caster or lower. Of course you have to go to the PC and ask him to make it for you, so there's more of a Mom & Pop Shop feel than a Magic Mart.

Of course this means no rings. But I'm OK with that. :smallbiggrin:

As for random loot, I don't. If a monster has a magic item its because he paid somebody to make it for him. It's not random, it's part of the encounter.

FishAreWet
2010-01-20, 02:40 AM
My solution to magic marts is that you can expect to buy anything made by a 9th level caster or lower. Of course you have to go to the PC and ask him to make it for you, so there's more of a Mom & Pop Shop feel than a Magic Mart.

Of course this means no rings. But I'm OK with that. :smallbiggrin:

As for random loot, I don't. If a monster has a magic item its because he paid somebody to make it for him. It's not random, it's part of the encounter.

What happens in your 12th level games?

olentu
2010-01-20, 02:45 AM
Why would he go against stronger monsters? Why not against monsters 2CR below his level? Still more profit/less risk than sitting around waiting in a store whose contents are worth more than the city itself just hoping that some vagabonds want to come buy his stuff and sell theirs.



Oh? A thousand people are murdered in a kingdom. One owns a magic item shop. You drop what you're doing and try to solve the mystery of the shopkeeper? Is this because murder matters more when it's rich people?

Well of course he can try to avoid anything dangerous but that does not mean he will be successful any more then any other adventurer so unless all adventurers in the world have a perfect ability to avoid death and still level there is a risk. So presumably it is still a better choice to stay in the shop if one wishes to stay alive.

Emmerask
2010-01-20, 02:57 AM
entitlement? it is about having fun... and making some people in the party superfluous because you think it is more realistic ruins their fun.

the DM isn't your master, just a friend you are having fun with... in theory.


Well there are lots of different mindsets regarding fantasy worlds you and your group(s) seem to like the high magic settings and that is perfectly fine. What you donīt seem to realize is that other people do enjoy low magic settings and everything that comes with it.

Some players even like a believable world :smalleek: and a magic mart with every magic item available has no place in a low magic campaign if it wants to be even a bit believable to call it a common dm mistake because your group likes high magic is just plain wrong nothing more :smallwink:

Yes I did only cover both extrems and there are lots of middle ground settinngs you can play in but to cover all variations is a bit much :smallwink:

As for the no fun part (I assume you meant tanks will have no fun without all the magic gear they want if not correct me please) that is not the case because low magic settings if I run them have many balances regarding casters so in the end I think it is quite more balanced then rawish d&d and my players do play everything from fighters over monks to wizards.

Aquillion
2010-01-20, 04:10 AM
If I'm not mistaken, random loot (as opposed to loot on demand or a complete lootless game) favors non-casters simply because the majority of magic items are not caster-oriented, and casters don't generally benefit from items that duplicate spells anyway.In general, the opposite is true. Casters benefit from being able to buy exactly what they want, sure... But they don't need it.

Even wizards, the most item-dependent of the tier-1 casters, still get two free spells a level, and it's actually pretty hard to keep them from accessing more (they can trade with any other caster they run into, and so forth -- you have to go very obviously out of your way to twist the game into a state where they can't get a decent selection of spells.)

Clerics and especially Druids can get by just fine with almost no items at all, if they have to.

But non-casters require items. Without the right combination of items, most non-casters (especially front-line fighters) drop sharply in effectiveness, because they need fairly valuable and specific items, with constant upgrades, to get even the basically decent usage out of their attacks, to keep up their defenses, and so on... while covering for holes in the abilities their class grants them.

JaronK
2010-01-20, 04:30 AM
Indeed. When making melee builds, I'm often worried about making sure I have the specific right gear... a Valorous Lance for my charger, for example, or a Blurstriking Quickrazor for my Factotum. Perhaps my Fighter just needs a magical Spiked Chain, and no other basic weapon type will do. My War Hulks always want Skillfull weapons, and my Rogues always want nice light weapons they can dual wield. As a caster, I don't really worry about it... I'll just get the best gear I can get and that's that. If the best I can get isn't that great, so what? I can still manipulate reality to my whim.

JaronK

dsmiles
2010-01-20, 05:08 AM
@OP: I only use magic marts in Sigil, Union, and in "supermetropolises" (I'm not even sure that's a word, but you get my point) of several hundred thousand (Lankhmar/Waterdeep type cities). Anything smaller doesn't rate high enough on the "I have large amounts of adventurers with expendable income" chart. Even in these cities, magic items are marked up considerably, so as to make crafting your own items more appealing to the characters. It seems that in my games, the "Craft X Item" feats are underused, so I make them more appealing than purchasing items. My players still end up buying items, no matter the price tag I attach to them. :smallconfused: I just don't get it...it's cheaper to make an item, and the self-correcting nature of the XP system allows for magic item creation as a viable option. Oh well, such is life...

Oh, yeah...

Technically the only mistake is the group not having fun.

This +1,000,000. You sir, have won a cookie. Now where did I put those cookies...

Gnaeus
2010-01-20, 06:38 AM
Players don't take craft potion unless retraining rules are in play and maybe not even then. cheap rings are understandable since that ability scales (at least better than potions)

PCs don't often take craft potions (unless, as you say, they can retrain). There are plenty of reasons for a first level NPC to do it. Lets say you are an Adept. Take Brew Potion. Open a shop, and let any low level caster come in, brew any potion they want with your feat and their xp, and sell it to them for 35 gp out of every 50. Or give them 10 or 15 gp for their 2 xp, then you keep and sell the potion. It isn't as good a deal as high level casters get, but a low level cleric, druid, or sorc might go for it if you need money. 15 gp per day is a good deal for a level 1 NPC.

Or, in a big temple, have 1 guy who knows brew potions. Make every acolyte tithe 1 day with the potion master per month, or use it as a punishment for bad behavior among the low levels.

To make rings, you need 12th level casters. THOSE guys would be better off doing something more profitable than making rings of feather fall, like running kingdoms. When they make rings for themselves and their allies, they will make powerful ones. They have very little incentive to make rings for 3rd level adventurers.

Lamech
2010-01-20, 07:19 AM
To make rings, you need 12th level casters. THOSE guys would be better off doing something more profitable than making rings of feather fall, like running kingdoms. When they make rings for themselves and their allies, they will make powerful ones. They have very little incentive to make rings for 3rd level adventurers.
The profit/time ratio is the same if they are making a 1000gp ring of feather fall or a 200,000 gp ring of wishes. Why would it matter if the ring they make is powerful or weak? Actually they would be best of fabricating stuff and not making anything magically at all. Or even running a teleport service or something...

Riffington
2010-01-20, 07:20 AM
Lets say you are an Adept. Take Brew Potion. Open a shop, and let any low level caster come in, brew any potion they want with your feat and their xp, and sell it to them for 35 gp out of every 50

Wait, I thought the brewer needed to pay the XP, not the caster?

Runestar
2010-01-20, 07:40 AM
Wait, I thought the brewer needed to pay the XP, not the caster?

It is a common houserule to let the recipient of the magic item provide the xp.

But a houserule nonetheless. The creator (ie: the one with the item creation feat) is always the one paying the xp, though other casters can provide the spellcasting.

olentu
2010-01-20, 07:41 AM
Wait, I thought the brewer needed to pay the XP, not the caster?

One could be using the spell from the PHB2 web enhancement.

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060526a

Riffington
2010-01-20, 07:52 AM
It is a common houserule to let the recipient of the magic item provide the xp.

Cool. Not a bad idea.

Anyway: if you are rich as Croesus, you don't want to spend your days as a shopkeeper (particularly not in a shop catering to dangerous adventurers). Even aside from the risk, it's just not Rich People fun. If you own all the gems in a shop, you aren't the one behind the counter. You pay someone to count the change, and you pay some other people to guard the store. This works on Earth because security is cheap: tough people don't make much more income than wusses. In D&D, tough people have high income, so hiring security has a large cost (and even if you do it yourself, it's a high opportunity cost). So other security arrangements need to be made if the value of your stock is worth over, say, 10k gp.

In a high-magic world, those security arrangements surely involve teleportation. It's cheaper than hiring enough muscle onsite. The "storefront" you see is just a browsing area. The actual items are elsewhere. This means that you can have multiple fronts. Your MagicMart in Bordertown-near-the-Trolls should have the same stock as in Capitalopolis. They're coming from the same supplier. In fact, if you have gold on credit and are willing to pay the delivery fee, they should be willing to send dragonslaying arrows to "the lair where I just saw a dragon".

Gnaeus
2010-01-20, 08:52 AM
It is a common houserule to let the recipient of the magic item provide the xp.

But a houserule nonetheless. The creator (ie: the one with the item creation feat) is always the one paying the xp, though other casters can provide the spellcasting.

DMG 215: "If two or more characters cooperate to create an item, they must agree among themselves who will be considered the creator... The character designated as the creator pays the xp required to make the item" The rest of the page makes it very clear that anyone contributing a spell or feat is cooperating as mentioned in this sentence.

Some games allow people to cooperate and just shell out the xp, without actually contributing a spell or feat to the item. That IS a house rule, but it is a good one, since it lets the fighter pay xp to the wizard to enchant his magical sword, which otherwise the wizard has no mechanical incentive to burn his soul energy on. Another common houserule is to let cooperating players split the xp, so that neither the sorcerer with Craft Wands nor the Cleric gets stuck with the entire xp cost for the healing wand that is meant for the entire party.

Gnaeus
2010-01-20, 08:57 AM
The profit/time ratio is the same if they are making a 1000gp ring of feather fall or a 200,000 gp ring of wishes. Why would it matter if the ring they make is powerful or weak? Actually they would be best of fabricating stuff and not making anything magically at all. Or even running a teleport service or something...

Because if a 12th level caster bothers to get Forge Ring, he will be making rings for himself and his buddies. They will all want rings that are useful at level 12+. Eventually, they will die, or get different items, and the powerful rings will remain.

As we both pointed out, the 12th level caster has much better options for making money than churning out rings.

Yes, it is possible under the rules that there is a 12th level crafter sitting in a workshop somewhere churning out low level rings, but I can't see why he would, or how you wind up with so many low level rings compared with the stronger ones.

Sinfire Titan
2010-01-20, 10:27 AM
In general, the opposite is true. Casters benefit from being able to buy exactly what they want, sure... But they don't need it.

Even wizards, the most item-dependent of the tier-1 casters, still get two free spells a level, and it's actually pretty hard to keep them from accessing more (they can trade with any other caster they run into, and so forth -- you have to go very obviously out of your way to twist the game into a state where they can't get a decent selection of spells.)

Clerics and especially Druids can get by just fine with almost no items at all, if they have to.

But non-casters require items. Without the right combination of items, most non-casters (especially front-line fighters) drop sharply in effectiveness, because they need fairly valuable and specific items, with constant upgrades, to get even the basically decent usage out of their attacks, to keep up their defenses, and so on... while covering for holes in the abilities their class grants them.

That award goes to the Artificer. It's second class feature literally does not function unless they target items (or themselves if Warforged). Furthermore, the rest of it's class features are geared around gear (pardon).

Lamech
2010-01-20, 10:31 AM
Because if a 12th level caster bothers to get Forge Ring, he will be making rings for himself and his buddies. They will all want rings that are useful at level 12+. Eventually, they will die, or get different items, and the powerful rings will remain.

As we both pointed out, the 12th level caster has much better options for making money than churning out rings.

Yes, it is possible under the rules that there is a 12th level crafter sitting in a workshop somewhere churning out low level rings, but I can't see why he would, or how you wind up with so many low level rings compared with the stronger ones.Umm... they would make a low level ring because (if they are making items for profit at all which seems suspect) of market forces meaning they sell quicker? If a wizard wants cash at low risk selling there services seems the way to go. Even if they just want to make toys for their friends they need an income source. Maybe they got a few dedicated wrights to make a little factory, and needed something to fill the production slots so decided to make a little cash.

Are you assuming every wizard is a dedicated adventurer? Because that is not an assumption for any campaign setting I've heard of. Ever.

2xMachina
2010-01-20, 10:54 AM
You know, I'd like to play a Wizard with Leadership cheese to make a Magic guild dedicated to being a Magic Mart/research center.

Oh, you want a Metamagic wand of XXX? Perfect, we have a Incantatrix with Arcane Thesis on that spell, and another with Easy/Practical on that metamagic. So, here's your Wand of Twin Chained, Repeat, Enervation (as a lvl 3 spell).

BTW, we offer ALL spells, and we'd also constantly research new spells. If you've an idea for spells, please inform us. We're also associated with Archivists, Clerics, Artificers and anyone with anything to do with magic,

We also sell insurance policies.

Also, we're hiring adventurers to fulfill these insurance policies. Like retrieving the corpse of our policy holders. Or other items of note.

Evard
2010-01-20, 10:57 AM
In one of the games i played in the DM said we were starting at level one but we got the wealth of a level 5 or 8 and we were told that the items we picked were hand me downs from our fore-fathers or fore-mothers. Since magic items were rare in the country away from the one major city we didn't get many other items until we actually got to level 9 or 10 where we finally made it to the big city.... (lots of random encounters and smaller cities along the way and plot holes yes those damn plot holes)

Giving the higher level items at low levels allowed us to go up against harder enemies and level up a bit faster than usual but we were still in danger of dying (in which you are dead no raises just dead..)

ericgrau
2010-01-20, 11:04 AM
More plausible magic mart in sig, giving lots of items available but not unlimited choice nor unlimited town wealth (not likely). Though for very powerful items and upgrades commissioning an NPC to craft them is the way to go. I'll agree that beatsticks need their WBL in gear much more than casters do (though it still helps casters). And either the treasure found is implausibly matches the PCs needs (yet only as interpreted by the DM) or they sell it and buy or commission other items.

Indon
2010-01-20, 11:10 AM
DMG:
Minor: 9% armor/weapons, 44% scrolls/wands,
Medium: 20% armor/weapons, 33% scrolls/staffs/wands
Major: 20% armor/weapons, 35% scrolls/staffs/wands

Then there are the rods, which look about 50% like caster only (all the metamagic ones)

So you are more likely to get caster-only loot than melee-only loot.
Wondrous items also favor noncasters, but that is a higher rate than I had figured for those gear categories.


Clerics and Druids have more utility spells than I can count. The statement that their spells are less frequently duplicated by items, if true, makes low magic item availability even better for them, because it means that they have tricks that no one else can duplicate.
Sure they have more utility spells than we can count, because nobody's going to go through a book and count spells like shillilegh (sp) and goodberry up like they mean anything.

Certainly, Clerics and Druids have utility spellcasting, but not at remotely the level of arcane casters. What utility spells they do have are weaker, less versatile, and/or more specialized (like Consecrate/Desecrate vs. Grease).


Maybe you make both rules go together, but in my experience most DMs don't.
Well, that would be a fairly significant magic mart removal mistake - failing to, in fact, remove the magic mart aspect of the game.


So how does the meleer deal with all those flying enemies? The high CRs are stacked with them. I mean, you can pull out your bow, and plink them for d8+5 or whatever if they aren't also casters who can wind wall, but that isn't very satisfying (or useful) for your power attacking barbarian.
As it turns out, without rampant magic in the party, sometimes a group needs to employ some form of tactics rather than use their magic items to set up the one-round win scenario. The same applies to fighting tentacle monsters or whatever.

And nowhere did I say that removing the magic mart would somehow make the caster-melee gap go away. But removing the ability of casters to create magical items, all by itself, limits the size of that gap substantially. Removing the literal mart aspect of the magic mart is a less significant change that would need to be compensated for, it seems, through directed itemization on the part of the DM to be able to actively work to close that gap.

But, yeah, it's clear there is a way to remove the magic mart that does reduce the melee-caster power gap.

Cyrion
2010-01-20, 11:23 AM
oh yea, and +1/2/3/4/5 bonuses on weapons suck, worst enchantment you can get. You want good enchantments and then have your cleric or wizard cast "greater magic weapon" on your weapon in the morning (to give it a level appropriate + bonus)

Possibly somewhat of a tangent here, but is there an errata somewhere that makes this work? Weapon special abilities require at least a +1 enhancement bonus on the weapon according to the DMG, and GMW is another enhancement bonus, so it won't stack with what's on the weapon to ramp up the bonus to something level appropriate.

Sstoopidtallkid
2010-01-20, 11:26 AM
Possibly somewhat of a tangent here, but is there an errata somewhere that makes this work? Weapon special abilities require at least a +1 enhancement bonus on the weapon according to the DMG, and GMW is another enhancement bonus, so it won't stack with what's on the weapon to ramp up the bonus to something level appropriate.GMW doesn't stack with the +1, it overlaps. But if GMW is adding +5(not uncommon for 12th level buffer clerics), it's definitely better than the +1 so it comes out 'on top'(and better than level-appropriate).

Gnaeus
2010-01-20, 11:40 AM
Umm... they would make a low level ring because (if they are making items for profit at all which seems suspect) of market forces meaning they sell quicker? If a wizard wants cash at low risk selling there services seems the way to go. Even if they just want to make toys for their friends they need an income source. Maybe they got a few dedicated wrights to make a little factory, and needed something to fill the production slots so decided to make a little cash.

Are you assuming every wizard is a dedicated adventurer? Because that is not an assumption for any campaign setting I've heard of. Ever.

No, I am assuming that every 12th level wizard is a fracking badass who has his choice of a dozen non adventuring ways to make money, most of which are more lucrative and way less time consuming than forging rings. As you note, making items for profit seems suspect. Casting 5th level spells for money is good for 600 gold per spell, with no xp cost. The wizards services in construction (move earth), espionage (Legend Lore, Contact other Plane), transportation (teleport), industry (fabricate) are all valuable, and none of those require spending 8 hours in a lab.

I am also assuming that 12th level casters are rare, and usually in positions of power in their guilds/schools/cities/nations/temples/whatever (if they aren't adventurers), so they usually have stuff to do more critical than make rings for nameless mooks.

I am also assuming that a 12th level caster who wants to make money shlepping vendor trash to nameless mooks could get some apprentices/acolytes/hirelings, teach them brew potions or craft wondrous items, and have them spend the time in the lab.

I am also assuming that of the tiny fraction of 12th + level casters who want to make money off of crafting, if they are really concerned with market forces, Forge Rings is a bad way to go. Most will still go with Craft Wondrous Items. You have to be at least 9th level to make a Hewards Haversack, and every party I have ever been in has bought a Haversack at the first opportunity. There are lots more Wondrous Items to create than Rings, and more that are critical to different types of people. Or he could just drop a little money on the front end, buy a quill of scribing, and let his pen create magic items for him in his sleep, spending his days being fed grapes by attractive servants. Before Forge Rings became an attractive option, you would have to assume that the high level wondrous item and scroll markets were totally glutted. So so you need a LOT of high level casters who spend all their time/xp making cheap items. As you say, "that is not an assumption for any campaign setting I've heard of. Ever."

Kylarra
2010-01-20, 11:44 AM
Why'd you cross out Violent Hobo? :smallamused:more people will cop to being an adventurer. :smallamused:

Drakevarg
2010-01-20, 11:47 AM
Truth be told, I think every character I've ever played would take offense to being called an "adventurer." It's "Freelance mercenary," thank you very much.

I think the only people who could call themselves... or anyone else... adventurers with a straight face are Kender. Or Flapjack.

oxybe
2010-01-20, 11:54 AM
more people will cop to being an adventurer. :smallamused:

well, saying "you can call me Shump, everyone else does. i'm a lost soul, wandering the roads in search of purpose. should one cry for help, i answer with 'i'll be there'." sounds better for the nobles and advertising then "the name's Shump. i haven't properly bathe in weeks, i'm coated in various types of muck and gore, i don't actually own anything outside of what's in my backpack, i barely make enough doing odd jobs to survive so don't be offended if i say that i would gut you with a rusty shiv should one make me a reasonable offer."

Tale
2010-01-20, 11:58 AM
I prefer the vet approach. Magic mart but with DM approval. Give the DM a list, in advance, of what you're looking for and he can veto items or make available only those that really fit.

Lot more viable, I imagine, in 4E than some older editions. Wealth is more strictly controlled (by design, at least) and Wizards not only don't, but can't, buy tons of spell scrolls.

It's not really a Magic Mart "buy whatever" deal, but I wouldn't call it a mistake. Maybe the DM doesn't really want them to have Planar Portal or Breeching Armor.

Not sure how this would go over with other games/editions.

ericgrau
2010-01-20, 12:18 PM
DMG:
Minor: 9% armor/weapons, 44% scrolls/wands,
Medium: 20% armor/weapons, 33% scrolls/staffs/wands
Major: 20% armor/weapons, 35% scrolls/staffs/wands

Then there are the rods, which look about 50% like caster only (all the metamagic ones)

So you are more likely to get caster-only loot than melee-only loot.

Scrolls are super cheap. You need a lot of them just to keep up in wealth. Rods and staffs are rare and metamagic rods even rarer. In your list the martial equivalent of scrolls, potions, are notably missing. These are also abundant. And all of this is moot because the standard Player's Handbook way to divide loot is by gp value and we're back to the original point. Casting another low level spell one more time per day (and only if you spend a precious action) doesn't tend to be as useful as doing another d6 of damage with every hit you land (automatically, no action).

Don't take my word for it, though, see for yourself. My magic mart generator relies on the treasure tables.

pffh
2010-01-20, 12:32 PM
For the ring making debate:

There are people that make weird things that makes no sense for them to make all the time, it's called a hobby. I wouldn't be surprised if there were are couple of a high level wizards that had a hobby of making low level ring and selling them.

Indon
2010-01-20, 12:38 PM
For the ring making debate:

There are people that make weird things that makes no sense for them to make all the time, it's called a hobby. I wouldn't be surprised if there were are couple of a high level wizards that had a hobby of making low level ring and selling them.

While that does make sense, it's a little different in that quilting or whatever doesn't require you to give up a portion of your soul into each quilt*.

*-Except for my gramma's quilts. They were very good quilts.

jiriku
2010-01-20, 12:44 PM
My issue with the 'Mart is verisimilitude.

You have to assume a large enough group of customers who are wildly wealthy, in need of magical items, and inclined to deal fairly instead of robbing or burgling. And LOTS of them, enough to require an inventory of rare and specialized items. You have to assume mighty spellcasters who desire to work as tradesmen, and immense security measures in place to protect massive stockpiles of magical goods. You have to assume that for whatever reason these warehouses are not major military targets for enemy powers.

And most illogically, none of these powerful adventurers, item crafters, and security forces are called upon when the king falls ill and someone has to quest for the cure. Instead, your 6th-level PCs get the job.

Duh. If 'Marts really existed in-game, the legion of high-level characters who service, maintain, and patronize them would swallow up all the glory and do all the important things.

A better solution is commission-based crafting. A scant handful of specific, named NPCs exist in the world who have item creation feats. Players who cultivate relationships with these NPCs can commission them to create an item, much like a noble would commission a master painter to make a painting. Doing so might require roleplaying or a Diplomacy check if the item is particularly time-consuming to craft or they're asking the NPC to drop everything and make the item right away. Wealthy players might become patron to an artificer and get crafting on demand if they pay him a stipend, just like the patron-artisan relationships common in the Renaissance. With this method, roleplaying is encouraged, players still get their stuff with only a short wait, and the suspension of disbelief is preserved.

Lamech
2010-01-20, 12:55 PM
Stuff

Sooo... dedicated wrights then?

Gnaeus
2010-01-20, 12:57 PM
Scrolls are super cheap. You need a lot of them just to keep up in wealth. Rods and staffs are rare and metamagic rods even rarer.

Check the % tables again. Taken over all 3 treasure types, you are more likely to get a wand or staff than weapon/armor. Scrolls are just freebies.


In your list the martial equivalent of scrolls, potions, are notably missing. These are also abundant.

That is because a potion isn't "the martial equivalent of a scroll". Scrolls are caster ONLY. My casters are perfectly content to carry and use potions if they happen to be convenient. If I am erring, I am erring on the side of the melee, because there is a much better chance that the caster is going to want a particular potion or weapon or piece of armor than that the fighter is going to want a wand, or the rogue a metamagic rod.



And all of this is moot because the standard Player's Handbook way to divide loot is by gp value and we're back to the original point.

Well you can TRY. Looking at the Major items table, I see about a 40% chance of getting caster only items (Scrolls, Wands, Staves, 50% of Rods). Then there are many other items that the melee will not want or cannot use (the heavy armor tank cares little for medium/light armor, or exotic weapons he can't use, or weapons with damage so low he is better using his MW 2 hander, and many of these items are useful to bards, clerics, druids, etc).

Then there are wondrous items, which may also be either useless or near useless to melee (Wisdom or Int + items, bracers of armor, amulets of mighty fists to non-monks, etc) but almost all have value to some or all casters. All in all, I would say that there is a much better chance of finding an item useful to a caster than to a meleer. (All this still assuming, BTW, that the caster cannot use money from magic item sales to either craft magic items, or to scribe spells into his spellbook). And again, the caster can adjust his spells taking his items into account, and doesn't need specific gear to harm monsters or solve problems. He has spells for that.


Casting another low level spell one more time per day (and only if you spend a precious action) doesn't tend to be as useful as doing another d6 of damage with every hit you land (automatically, no action).

1. I don't recall you ever answering how the fighter gets up into the air to do his extra damage to a flying enemy without a flight item. Or how he escapes from the huge beast's grapple without a free action or teleport item. Heck, he can't even enlarge himself. Without the right gear, he is dependent on casters to be marginally useful in dozens of different encounters.

2. You know those tables? I see where they generate Adamantine weapons, and cold iron weapons, and magical weapons, but I don't see any magical, cold iron or silver weapons on the chart in the DMG. You better be rolling a bunch of damage, because your chance of beating high level enemy DR is pitiful.

3. Automatic Damage you say?
"Hey Grognar, why are you hitting that fire elemental with your Flaming Burst Greataxe?"
"Grognar only have 3 magic weapons. Defending dagger and ghost touch whip useless. Grognar not even know how to use whip."
"Huh. Lucky I memorized these cold spells, champ."

Tyndmyr
2010-01-20, 01:06 PM
Check the % tables again. Taken over all 3 treasure types, you are more likely to get a wand or staff than weapon/armor. Scrolls are just freebies.

You only need one set of armor. Multiple wands are routine.


That is because a potion isn't "the martial equivalent of a scroll". Scrolls are caster ONLY. My casters are perfectly content to carry and use potions if they happen to be convenient. If I am erring, I am erring on the side of the melee, because there is a much better chance that the caster is going to want a particular potion or weapon or piece of armor than that the fighter is going to want a wand, or the rogue a metamagic rod.

Wait, casters love magical armor now, but non-casters don't take wands? Does nobody invest in UMD?


Well you can TRY. Looking at the Major items table, I see about a 40% chance of getting caster only items (Scrolls, Wands, Staves, 50% of Rods). Then there are many other items that the melee will not want or cannot use (the heavy armor tank cares little for medium/light armor, or exotic weapons he can't use, or weapons with damage so low he is better using his MW 2 hander, and many of these items are useful to bards, clerics, druids, etc).

In the same fashion that rogue items are suboptimal to a fighter, arcane stuff is pretty hard for a cleric to use, ditto divine for arcane casters. Sure, casters can get UMD too, but it's generally cross class.


Then there are wondrous items, which may also be either useless or near useless to melee (Wisdom or Int + items, bracers of armor, amulets of mighty fists to non-monks, etc) but almost all have value to some or all casters. All in all, I would say that there is a much better chance of finding an item useful to a caster than to a meleer. And again, the caster can adjust his spells taking his items into account, and doesn't need specific gear to harm monsters or solve problems. He has spells for that.

Casters are more SAD. Thus, stat boosts for them are less likely. Your typical wizard cares about only dex, con and int. If a con booster drops, everyone wants it. Usually the same for dex. Str, cha, or wis? Yeah, it gets ignored by the wiz.

Gnaeus
2010-01-20, 01:08 PM
Sooo... dedicated wrights then?

Sooo..... low level magical rings only exist in any frequency in Eberron?

taltamir
2010-01-20, 01:10 PM
You just won yourself a cursed item, mister. Would you like to try for 2?

lol. ooh, I hope its a real funny cursed item :P


Well there are lots of different mindsets regarding fantasy worlds you and your group(s) seem to like the high magic settings
No we don't


What you donīt seem to realize is that other people do enjoy low magic settings and everything that comes with it.

I realize it perfectly, that is why my first post said:

All that being said, it makes sense to not have magic marts for various reasons, especially making a realistic non tippyverse world. But for it work mechanically would require drastic alterations to the rules and class balance; which often do not accompany such a change, or are also done incorrectly.
This is a class balance issue. If you want to make your world low magic (item), then you need significant rewriting (or banning) of tier 1 and 2 classes because you have just furthered (significantly) the gap between beatsticks and casters.
A level 10 fighter with crap gear is weaker then a pet.


Some players even like a believable world :smalleek: and a magic mart with every magic item available has no place in a low magic campaign if it wants to be even a bit believable to call it a common dm mistake because your group likes high magic is just plain wrong nothing more :smallwink:
It might be believable, it is still a mistake because of what it does for class balance. If you can, say, believe that a wizard can do all those amazing things... why not believe that the poor fighter can get the magic items he needs?
In my group, we play low magic with huge massive nerfs to the casters to facilitate it.

Thrawn183
2010-01-20, 01:13 PM
Lets not forget that there should be a huge number of scrolls floating around. Every wizard ever gets scribe scroll!

taltamir
2010-01-20, 01:15 PM
Lets not forget that there should be a huge number of scrolls floating around. Every wizard ever gets scribe scroll!

also... every wizard has a spellbook, good chance that said spellbook outlives the wizard.
Every wizard can use those spellbooks to copy spells, or even "attune" to them and use them as their own spellbooks (using rules from CA)

Gnaeus
2010-01-20, 01:20 PM
Certainly, Clerics and Druids have utility spellcasting, but not at remotely the level of arcane casters. What utility spells they do have are weaker, less versatile, and/or more specialized (like Consecrate/Desecrate vs. Grease).

Clerics and Druids have way more utility spells than arcane casters. A top notch sorcerer has maybe a dozen utility spells. A good, high level wizard, 40-50? Clerics get more than 200 spells of 4th level and below in the spell compendium alone, of which a large % are utility, and druids get similar numbers, and both get a dozen more in each splatbook.

You could go core only.... No, that sucks for melee also. You could go through and nerf several hundred spells. Boy, removing magic marts involves changes of dozens of other aspects of the game. I wonder how many we haven't found yet. And all that to widen the gap between melee and casters.

taltamir
2010-01-20, 01:26 PM
I had a thread about the issue, we checked a database that was missing 13 books... it listed over 960 spells for the cleric.
And the cleric knows ALL OF THEM...
domains grant extra spells known, with the spell domain giving "anyspell" and miracle being able to emulate any spell of any class of level 7 or below WITHOUT an XP cost.

hamlet
2010-01-20, 01:29 PM
This is a class balance issue. If you want to make your world low magic (item), then you need significant rewriting (or banning) of tier 1 and 2 classes because you have just furthered (significantly) the gap between beatsticks and casters.
A level 10 fighter with crap gear is weaker then a pet.


That's only true of the WOTC editions, really, when it comes to D&D. Never been an issue with AD&D, BECMI, or 0D&D, or the clones for that matter.

True: a wizard of high level in any of these games can destroy large swathes of countryside in a short amount of time, but he is still very squishy when compared to a comparably leveled (or even a few levels below) fighter or thief in the same game. A sword in the vitals really tends to refocus one's attentions and priorities.

chiasaur11
2010-01-20, 01:29 PM
Truth be told, I think every character I've ever played would take offense to being called an "adventurer." It's "Freelance mercenary," thank you very much.

I think the only people who could call themselves... or anyone else... adventurers with a straight face are Kender. Or Flapjack.

Freelance Peacekeeping Agent, specializing in long term cessation of hostilities, with payment based on individual initiative, yes?

Lysander
2010-01-20, 01:31 PM
A better solution is commission-based crafting.

I agree. However I also think the DM should fudge what loot turns up in the character's favor. Sure it's more accurate for the magic items to be entirely random, but D&D isn't just a simulation. It's also a story. In LOTR Merry got a magic dagger that was the only weapon able to kill the evil witch king, not a Bag of Tricks. Fate comes into it. The heroes always get what they need.

If you think about it, how does gold really enhance a campaign? Does it really make it better if your player gets 10,000gp, then goes to a magic mart and buys a 10,000gp sword? Why not just give them the sword instead of gold and cut out the middle-man? All you're doing is tarnishing an adventure with some grubby commerce. Imagine if King Arthur didn't pull out the Sword In The Stone, he instead pulled out the Money To Buy A Good Sword in the stone? Ugh.

In the end I think you need a mix of everything. If you go adventuring you should get gear that helps your character. Maybe you don't get to pick exactly what you get. And if you really want a precise item then become a wealthy patron to a wizard, or make gather information checks to find the current owner of one and then negotiate for it. It's the DM's discretion whether you can buy it with gold or whether it requires a side quest to earn it.

taltamir
2010-01-20, 01:34 PM
with all that random loot, PCs should form their own magic mart... I never like the "sell at 50% market value" deal... first of all, that assumes a magic pawn shop exists, second of all, its 50% market price!

screw that... I want to take all my looted gear to town, buy (build with magic) a shop front, hire a commoner to run it (or bind some creature), and dump all our spare gear there to be sold off to other adventurers. It might not all sell right away, but it has better returns...

Gnaeus
2010-01-20, 01:41 PM
You only need one set of armor. Multiple wands are routine.

Which means that the second suit of plate mail is useless to the fighter. Casters love multiple wands.


Wait, casters love magical armor now, but non-casters don't take wands? Does nobody invest in UMD?

Well, wands are good for rogues and some other hybrid classes. But they want SPECIFIC wands, not a roll on a random table. When you are 5th level and rocking a 50% fail chance, the only wands you will use often are buffs you can cast before battle. Since we can't reliably get UMD+ items without crafting or a magic mart, low-mid level rogues are likely to hand wands right along to someone who can use them when needed.

The fact that high level rogues might be able to use some of the arcanists loot, does not make up for the fact that in a magic mart/crafting available game, a high level rogue can function effectively as a caster, duplicating tricks as needed with cherry picked wands/staves. So again we have a widening of the caster-non-caster gap.


In the same fashion that rogue items are suboptimal to a fighter, arcane stuff is pretty hard for a cleric to use, ditto divine for arcane casters. Sure, casters can get UMD too, but it's generally cross class.

Casters are more SAD. Thus, stat boosts for them are less likely. Your typical wizard cares about only dex, con and int. If a con booster drops, everyone wants it. Usually the same for dex. Str, cha, or wis? Yeah, it gets ignored by the wiz.

In the "standard" 4 role party, the arcanist gets the arcane stuff, the divine gets the divine stuff. Armor and weapons go to whoever can use it, which is as likely to be the cleric as the fighter in the case of armor. In a world where there is no item creation and no magic marts, the only vendor trash is stuff that has absolutely no possibility of use by anyone. Stuff like rings and cloaks might go to the melee first, if it is more useful to him or if the casters got caster only stuff, but misc gear still winds up being spread around, because, being random, you will have duplicates of slots.

Tyndmyr
2010-01-20, 01:41 PM
screw that... I want to take all my looted gear to town, buy (build with magic) a shop front, hire a commoner to run it (or bind some creature), and dump all our spare gear there to be sold off to other adventurers. It might not all sell right away, but it has better returns...

I see this as possible, but it has multiple problems.

1. Time.
2. Location. Adventurers travel.
3. Overhead. land, hirelings, etc. Its small, but it adds up.
4. Security. Can't leave piles of magic items around without it.

Tyndmyr
2010-01-20, 01:45 PM
Which means that the second suit of plate mail is useless to the fighter. Casters love multiple wands.

He has a greater chance of getting what he needs, yes. When it comes to magical items, more rolls on the chart means more odds of getting what he wants.


Well, wands are good for rogues and some other hybrid classes. But they want SPECIFIC wands, not a roll on a random table. When you are 5th level and rocking a 50% fail chance, the only wands you will use often are buffs you can cast before battle. Since we can't reliably get UMD+ items without crafting or a magic mart, low-mid level rogues are likely to hand wands right along to someone who can use them when needed.

Well, with a sixteen cha, max ranks in UMD and a MW item, then a 5th level character has a +13 to UMD. IE, he has a 30% fail chance. It gets better from there.

And EVERYONE wants specific wands. Casters look at a wand of burning hands and go "meh".

Gnaeus
2010-01-20, 01:53 PM
Well, with a sixteen cha, max ranks in UMD and a MW item, then a 5th level character has a +13 to UMD. IE, he has a 30% fail chance. It gets better from there.

And EVERYONE wants specific wands. Casters look at a wand of burning hands and go "meh".

Sorry, I was editing my post while you were responding to it. Please see above.

Many DMs don't allow masterwork UMD items. Mostly because it is unclear what a masterwork UMD item would be. It isn't like a set of lockpicks where it is clear that a good tool is helpful.

I think 16 cha is a bit high for your standard MAD rogue, but assuming you have a rogue and want to UMD often, the fact that you can use otherwise caster only loot isn't going to help you nearly as much as the inability to buy wands is going to hurt you. The casters can still memorize their spells based on the loot they actually get. The rogue is stuck with the luck of the rolls.

Thrawn183
2010-01-20, 01:55 PM
I've always run it as generic items are pretty common but the more esoteric ones are harder to find.

It's easy to find a +3 greatsword. If you absolutely must have a +1 flaming holy kukri, that might be a little more difficult to find. Cloaks of resistance and rings of protection? Pretty standard protective fair as far as I'm concerned.

Then again, in my setting the banks are run by dragons so it's pretty easy to find what you need.

I also use favors as currency. Especially with the chromatic loan sharks. :smallbiggrin:

Sinfire Titan
2010-01-20, 01:58 PM
He has a greater chance of getting what he needs, yes. When it comes to magical items, more rolls on the chart means more odds of getting what he wants.

Except he isn't getting what he wants because he wants a specific XYZ suit of +1 Plate, whereas both the DMG and MIC regulate the random armor charts to "+5 Plate, 2 +1 special abilities and a +3 enhancement bonus to AC". The odds of getting a +1/+9 of any weapon in the MIC are ), because the Devs excluded that option from the entire list. A +5/+5 is extremely suboptimal (consider this: this is one of the reasons the Soulknife's Mind Blade progression is considered underpowered), no matter who wields it.

ericgrau
2010-01-20, 03:05 PM
stuff
major treasure:
20% weapons and armor
5% potions (cheap)
10% rings
10% rods
10% scrolls (cheap)
20% staffs
5% wands (cheap)
20% wondrous items

Only 35% is dedicated to casters, 15% of that is cheap. Likewise 20% of expensive items go to martial classes, plus some misc cheap stuff. The rest can go either way. Divvying by the method suggested in the rules is not hard.

There is also a vast difference between a scroll of comprehend languages and wings of flying (or some weapon), both in usefulness and expandability. 95% of fights I've ever seen martial classes don't need to spend an extra action to use their stuff. Anyone who plays knows this. This is precisely why I am dismissive of corner cases, and tend to completely ignore them no matter how high the wall of text is.

Gnaeus
2010-01-20, 03:32 PM
major treasure:
20% weapons and armor
5% potions (cheap)
10% rings
10% rods
10% scrolls (cheap)
20% staffs
5% wands (cheap)
20% wondrous items

Only 35% is dedicated to casters, 15% of that is cheap. Likewise 20% of expensive items go to martial classes, plus some misc cheap stuff. The rest can go either way. Divvying by the method suggested in the rules is not hard.

There is also a vast difference between a scroll of comprehend languages and wings of flying (or some weapon), both in usefulness and expandability. 95% of fights I've ever seen martial classes don't need to spend an extra action to use their stuff. Anyone who plays knows this. This is precisely why I am dismissive of corner cases, and tend to completely ignore them no matter how high the wall of text is.

Fully half of the rods are caster only, so 40% goes to casters. Armor is as likely to go to the cleric as the fighter. Certainly the fighter can't wear more than one suit of armor, so additional rolls on that table are either trash or are going to the cleric, while the wizard will happily pick up a second or third staff or metamagic rod. The fighter certainly does need an extra action to use his stuff, when his stuff is a third or fourth weapon. While a fighter in a magic mart game might have use for 3 or 4 weapons, that would be based on their being specific types for specific jobs (a holy, cold iron for outsiders, a bludgeoning adamantine for golems etc.) Rolling on a random chart is not going to reliably get him what he needs. Major scrolls have D6 spells of 4th level or higher, so your comprehend languages-wings of flying example is dishonest.

Also, I like how we have moved from your original statement that melee have many more useful magic items available than magic users, to the new position of "equal treasure distribution is not difficult". So, with just a LITTLE bit of work, the melee can get as much gp value of stuff as the caster (shame the caster needs it less).

And as previously repeated, your crummy gear fighter won't have useful actions, because he will be grappled with no way out, or standing on the ground facing a flying ranged enemy. Anyone who plays knows this.


This is precisely why I am dismissive of corner cases, and tend to completely ignore them no matter how high the wall of text is.

Either that, or because you have no good answer to the points I raised, so you replace them with "stuff". You can try to bluff and pretend that you answered them, or that you could answer them, but you aren't really fooling anyone.

Tyndmyr
2010-01-20, 04:18 PM
Except he isn't getting what he wants because he wants a specific XYZ suit of +1 Plate, whereas both the DMG and MIC regulate the random armor charts to "+5 Plate, 2 +1 special abilities and a +3 enhancement bonus to AC". The odds of getting a +1/+9 of any weapon in the MIC are ), because the Devs excluded that option from the entire list. A +5/+5 is extremely suboptimal (consider this: this is one of the reasons the Soulknife's Mind Blade progression is considered underpowered), no matter who wields it.

True. Im not trying to make the point that MagicMarts hurt melee. They clearly help melee more than casters.

However, the same trend is true of low magic worlds, in which melee are again hurt more than casters, because drops also are more important for melee, even if random.

prufock
2010-01-20, 04:45 PM
I generally have everything in stock somewhere in all big cities. That doesn't mean there's one Magic Mart, but that there are enough merchants in that town who sell magical items that pretty much anything is available. Certain items I will ban (Ring of 3 Wishes) sometimes, and a large part of it depends on the campaign. I don't want any "PRESTO! campaign over" type deals. Some particularly rare items I will put a delay on - you can buy it, but the merchant doesn't just have it sitting around, he'll have to make it, taking however long it takes to craft that item.

I generally play it with a simple ruleset:
Farming communities, small villages, etc have none available for sale.
Larger towns have minor items for sale.
Small cities have minor and medium items for sale.
Large cities have minor, medium, and major items for sale.
Gigantic urban centres have minor, medium, major, and epic items for sale.

Other than that guideline, I'll look at the cost - I might cap the cost of items available. Mostly it's played by ear, though.

Aquillion
2010-01-20, 04:57 PM
That award goes to the Artificer. It's second class feature literally does not function unless they target items (or themselves if Warforged). Furthermore, the rest of it's class features are geared around gear (pardon).Well, yes, technically. But Artificers are in a special case, since they also become more valuable to the party as a whole in a world with no magical item-marts -- they are the most powerful class with random WBL loot and no magical item-marts (since unlike everyone else, they can basically serve as a walking item-mart themselves to turn the random items into whatever you want.)

In a world with no magical items period, sure, the Artificer would be gimped, but that's like putting the wizard in a world with no magic. As long as you're getting access to WBL worth of magical items in some form, they will be fine.


One could be using the spell from the PHB2 web enhancement.

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060526a

Oh my god.

The only time NPCs are willing to transfer the XP costs for creating magic items is when they are cohorts or followers of some member in the party, or the magic item is being made for their personal use (for example, when an NPC commissions a magic item).That's insane. Because Leadership wasn't broken enough before, this spell lets you basically turn it into free crafting XP?

Gnaeus
2010-01-20, 05:01 PM
If you picked a spellcasting cohort, or a cohort who possesses other prerequisites for items (like a martial adept) you can do it without the spell. Yes, it is cheesy and sensible DMs won't allow it.

Kelb_Panthera
2010-01-20, 07:12 PM
@ the running commentary on how a high level spellcaster making magic items seems suspect, since he could be doing a myriad of other things to make more money in less time: Not all spellcasters are wizards or archivists. I really don't have any trouble imagining a 12 lvl sorcerer, with int 10 and wis 10, churning out magic items, one after another, simply because he can't think of another way to make as much or more money faster. If you want your game to be truly believable you have to include people who do dumb stuff because they didn't think it through, or because somebody bet them they couldn't, or any other of the million or so reasons that people do dumb stuff in reality. Then there's outfitting minions to think about. Do you really want to give a lieutenant who's only one of many the most powerful item you can make, or do you want to give him something that's just powerful enough to give him an edge over somebody that doesn't have one?

Lamech
2010-01-20, 07:13 PM
major treasure:
20% weapons and armor
5% potions (cheap)
10% rings
10% rods
10% scrolls (cheap)
20% staffs
5% wands (cheap)
20% wondrous items

Only 35% is dedicated to casters, 15% of that is cheap. Likewise 20% of expensive items go to martial classes, plus some misc cheap stuff. The rest can go either way. Divvying by the method suggested in the rules is not hard.

There is also a vast difference between a scroll of comprehend languages and wings of flying (or some weapon), both in usefulness and expandability. 95% of fights I've ever seen martial classes don't need to spend an extra action to use their stuff. Anyone who plays knows this. This is precisely why I am dismissive of corner cases, and tend to completely ignore them no matter how high the wall of text is.Your forgetting that if a wizard is in the party they can turn arcane scrolls and wands into spells in their spell book. The scroll is obvious, and the wand must go through a scroll first, but still easy. If spells are not for sale, those new spells are extremely valuable.

taltamir
2010-01-20, 08:33 PM
@ the running commentary on how a high level spellcaster making magic items seems suspect, since he could be doing a myriad of other things to make more money in less time: Not all spellcasters are wizards or archivists. I really don't have any trouble imagining a 12 lvl sorcerer, with int 10 and wis 10, churning out magic items, one after another, simply because he can't think of another way to make as much or more money faster. If you want your game to be truly believable you have to include people who do dumb stuff because they didn't think it through, or because somebody bet them they couldn't, or any other of the million or so reasons that people do dumb stuff in reality. Then there's outfitting minions to think about. Do you really want to give a lieutenant who's only one of many the most powerful item you can make, or do you want to give him something that's just powerful enough to give him an edge over somebody that doesn't have one?

int 10 is average human intelligence.
A sorcerer can get much more money via a fraction of the work and no waste of lifeforce (which they are aware of btw... and items cannot be crafted unless you have enough spare XP) by casting spells for people rather than via crafting items.

Lamech
2010-01-20, 08:45 PM
@ the running commentary on how a high level spellcaster making magic items seems suspect, since he could be doing a myriad of other things to make more money in less time: Not all spellcasters are wizards or archivists. I really don't have any trouble imagining a 12 lvl sorcerer, with int 10 and wis 10, churning out magic items, one after another, simply because he can't think of another way to make as much or more money faster. If you want your game to be truly believable you have to include people who do dumb stuff because they didn't think it through, or because somebody bet them they couldn't, or any other of the million or so reasons that people do dumb stuff in reality. Then there's outfitting minions to think about. Do you really want to give a lieutenant who's only one of many the most powerful item you can make, or do you want to give him something that's just powerful enough to give him an edge over somebody that doesn't have one?
Hmm... thats rather clever, except I a level 3 expert* with max ranks in know (arcana) and know (shipping), and proffesion (travel agent) can say, "hey I would like to hire you to work for me. I'll pay 1000gp a day. You pick your days. I'll only take a limited number of spell slots." I can find half a dozen ways to out compete the listed prices for stuff.

.

Superglucose
2010-01-20, 09:15 PM
I agree. However I also think the DM should fudge what loot turns up in the character's favor. Sure it's more accurate for the magic items to be entirely random, but D&D isn't just a simulation. It's also a story. In LOTR Merry got a magic dagger that was the only weapon able to kill the evil witch king, not a Bag of Tricks. Fate comes into it. The heroes always get what they need.

If you think about it, how does gold really enhance a campaign? Does it really make it better if your player gets 10,000gp, then goes to a magic mart and buys a 10,000gp sword? Why not just give them the sword instead of gold and cut out the middle-man? All you're doing is tarnishing an adventure with some grubby commerce. Imagine if King Arthur didn't pull out the Sword In The Stone, he instead pulled out the Money To Buy A Good Sword in the stone? Ugh.

In the end I think you need a mix of everything. If you go adventuring you should get gear that helps your character. Maybe you don't get to pick exactly what you get. And if you really want a precise item then become a wealthy patron to a wizard, or make gather information checks to find the current owner of one and then negotiate for it. It's the DM's discretion whether you can buy it with gold or whether it requires a side quest to earn it.
That's it. You should get the most useful magic items just in "random" loot, and maybe occasionally save up enough money to buy one super special awesome item. Like, the Wizard finds a couple of low level Ring of Wizardry, and a +4 Headband of Int, but has to save up money to get that Tome of Int +5. After that; however, he's mostly relegated to what he finds in dungeons.

Oh, and if any of my GMs rolls a Tome of Charisma when we have a Fighter, Wizard, Druid, and Rogue in the party I'm going to scream. Seriously try not to let the best items also be useless to the party for whatever reason.

Sinfire Titan
2010-01-20, 09:22 PM
Well, yes, technically. But Artificers are in a special case, since they also become more valuable to the party as a whole in a world with no magical item-marts -- they are the most powerful class with random WBL loot and no magical item-marts (since unlike everyone else, they can basically serve as a walking item-mart themselves to turn the random items into whatever you want.)

I know that they can (and do) function quite well in a low magic item campaign, I was refering to the fact that their class features make them item-reliant. Their Infusions can't be cast on anything that isn't a Construct or an actual item (magic or otherwise). While they are capable of recovering from an MDJ at the same rate as other members of the Big 6, they are also the ones who suffer the most loses from a single casting (and yes, I know why you shouldn't cast that spell).

They are able to function quite well even with random treasure, but they are not capable of functioning unless items are present. There's a reason VoP Artificer is actually weaker than VoP Wizard.

Kelb_Panthera
2010-01-20, 09:27 PM
Hmm... thats rather clever, except I a level 3 expert* with max ranks in know (arcana) and know (shipping), and proffesion (travel agent) can say, "hey I would like to hire you to work for me. I'll pay 1000gp a day. You pick your days. I'll only take a limited number of spell slots." I can find half a dozen ways to out compete the listed prices for stuff.

.

Yeah, and then the sorcerer, who knows that he can be very persuasive (high cha) starts haggling with the expert to try and get that 1000gp/day to 1500, or tells the expert to go **** himself, simply because he doesn't like the idea of working for someone else, or decides that this poor chump that just walked up with such an impertinent "job offer" will be the next zombie in his undead army that he's been massing in a cave a few miles out into the wilderness. People do dumb stuff.

If everyone in the campaign acts in the most efficient manner possible A) verisimilitude will be completely wrecked, and B) society would become so efficient that the tippyverse would be at hand shortly.

Jayabalard
2010-01-20, 09:43 PM
but with such drastic changes, are you even still playing DnD?Yes; it doesn't really take drastic changes, just a couple of fairly minor ones. It's not been uncommon, through all editions of D&D.

taltamir
2010-01-20, 10:15 PM
Yeah, and then the sorcerer, who knows that he can be very persuasive (high cha) starts haggling with the expert to try and get that 1000gp/day to 1500, or tells the expert to go **** himself, simply because he doesn't like the idea of working for someone else, or decides that this poor chump that just walked up with such an impertinent "job offer" will be the next zombie in his undead army that he's been massing in a cave a few miles out into the wilderness. People do dumb stuff.

If everyone in the campaign acts in the most efficient manner possible A) verisimilitude will be completely wrecked, and B) society would become so efficient that the tippyverse would be at hand shortly.

and having such high cha and "people skills" he surely has at least one trusted friend who is not mentally handicapped, that person will point out to them that they are worth so much more then the crappy job they now have (which drains their very lifeforce and takes many hours of the day, where they could just cast a few spells @6 seconds each and make the same amount of money)

remember that a caster is limited to crafting 1000gp worth of items a day. That means 500gp worth of ingredients, 500 "profit" at a rate of 12.5gp per XP... unless they craft a bad item (ex: tome of inherant bonuses give 5.4gp per XP)

moreover, crafting is NEVER a full time job, you will run out of XP for crafting very very quickly and must go slay level appropriate monsters to gain more XP to continue crafting. And remember, you cannot craft if you do not have enough XP (you cannot lose a level from crafting). Actually, wouldn't that indicate that characters must be aware of their own XP? that and the rule that they may opt to not level up and instead "pool" XP?

casting spells earns you 10gp x spell level x caster level.

Level 10 sorcerer casting 5th level spells is making 500gp per single spell cast; he can cast many more, it takes him 6 seconds of work to cast the spell, he gets paid EXTRA if he has to actually GO somewhere to cast the spell (the rules are specific about that, if they have to go somewhere you must pay them extra). And look, the maximum possible gold income from crafting is 500gp per day.
btw... rough conversion is 1gp = 60 to 80 us dollars... so 500gp per cast = 30000 to 40000$ per cast, for 6 seconds of work. :) And you can cast dozens of spells per day...

Or you could work 8 hours per day depleting your very soul (literally) for an equal (to a single spell) amount of cash.

Kelb_Panthera
2010-01-20, 10:53 PM
and having such high cha and "people skills" he surely has at least one trusted friend who is not mentally handicapped, that person will point out to them that they are worth so much more then the crappy job they now have (which drains their very lifeforce and takes many hours of the day, where they could just cast a few spells @6 seconds each and make the same amount of money)

I won't even try to argue that it's more efficient to craft than to do much of anything else with the same magical power. But the fact remains that humans, and by extension all humanoids of similar intellect, do truly stupid things, simply because of lapses in judgment or even just having poor judgment to begin with. For myriad real life examples of high cha people with few or no true friends and exceedingly poor judgement, you need look no further than Hollywood California. You're also assuming that such a character's close friends automatically know something he doesn't, and that a caster must choose between for-hire casting and item crafting. They can very easily do both, and operate a teleportation based travel agency at the same time. Only eight hours of any given day need to be spent on crafting. In-fact nothing in the rules says that this must be 8 contiguous hours. A caster could just as easily spend 4 hours in the morning crafting, 8 hours running his multi-faceted magical business, selling items casting spells etc.., then 4 more hours crafting, then 8 hours of sleep. Give or take 15 minutes to an hour to the hours he spends running his shop, at least once a weak, since he must regain and/or prepare his spells at some point.

taltamir
2010-01-20, 10:57 PM
i can see how someone will try out crafting, make a few items here and there... but they should eventually drop it.

If you literally spend seconds teleporting people each day for tons and tons of money, and then toiling for 8 hours and sacrificing a portion of your very soul for a fraction of said money, you will quickly stop the crafting business even IF you are mentally handicapped. Unless for some reason people derive intense pleasure from the burning of their XP.

that doesn't mean there aren't any magic items... just that people craft items for themselves, and those who try it for selling quickly stop doing so.

Kelb_Panthera
2010-01-20, 11:59 PM
i can see how someone will try out crafting, make a few items here and there... but they should eventually drop it.

If you literally spend seconds teleporting people each day for tons and tons of money, and then toiling for 8 hours and sacrificing a portion of your very soul for a fraction of said money, you will quickly stop the crafting business even IF you are mentally handicapped. Unless for some reason people derive intense pleasure from the burning of their XP.

that doesn't mean there aren't any magic items... just that people craft items for themselves, and those who try it for selling quickly stop doing so.


You're also neglecting some economics here. You're not going to have a customer every 6 seconds of every day. You'll be lucky to manage to use up all of your spell slots on any given day. I believe it takes at least a 7th level spell to get close to 1000gp for a single casting. Do you really think that you'll be able to find a customer who needs a 7th level spell each and every day? Most scrolls below 4th level can be made in one day, so can virtually all potions, and even most 1st level wands. All these things have considerably wider market value than a 7th level spell; since, once purchased, they're always available until used, they can't change their mind right before you need them, and they can go to places that your caster for hire might not be willing to go.

taltamir
2010-01-21, 12:49 AM
the difficulty in finding a buy really depends on what item you are crafting and what spell you are selling.
And you are going to be limited in how many items you sell either way.
Selling scrolls is fairly easy. So is selling some highly useful spells.
Selling a casting of miracle or a tome of +5 int is obviously a lot harder to find a buyer for.

as an interesting aside, you can afford to give people "deals" when casting a spell (that has no GP or XP component) for them, because it is free to you. While crafting costs material components (gp) and lifeforce (xp) so "cutting a deal" or even doing some "charity" work is not an option. (ex, a cleric could go into a town and cure everyone of whatever ails them for free if he is so inclined... or for bartered goods).

Kelb_Panthera
2010-01-21, 01:26 AM
the difficulty in finding a buy really depends on what item you are crafting and what spell you are selling.
And you are going to be limited in how many items you sell either way.
Selling scrolls is fairly easy. So is selling some highly useful spells.
Selling a casting of miracle or a tome of +5 int is obviously a lot harder to find a buyer for.

as an interesting aside, you can afford to give people "deals" when casting a spell (that has no GP or XP component) for them, because it is free to you. While crafting costs material components (gp) and lifeforce (xp) so "cutting a deal" or even doing some "charity" work is not an option. (ex, a cleric could go into a town and cure everyone of whatever ails them for free if he is so inclined... or for bartered goods).

My argument is that the items are easier to find buyers for. If they're looking for a wand of light, they're going someplace dark, someplace you probably don't want to go with them. Many more spells are useful in an adventuring situation than spells that are useful both in adventuring and non-adventuring settings. Granted, there are spells that are more useful in a non-adventure setting, but these are less common. Say somebody comes to you looking for a magical means of protecting himself from the weapons of his enemies. You're certainly not going to go into the dungeon with him to cast mage-armor every time he needs it, but you could sell him a mess of potions of mage armor. In-fact, you'll be getting 5x what you would for a single casting for each potion in that example. The logic behind magic item crafting makes sense, it's just not that obvious.

The_Jackal
2010-01-21, 03:18 AM
The supernatural is supposed to be not a natural occurance. That's why it is supernatural. If the magic stuff becomes too common it becomes boring, and that is something of the worst things you can possibly do to a fantasy setting - making it dull.

Then D20 3.5 is a TERRIBLE system to be playing your campaign in, because its challenge ratings and scaling are build with abundant magic as a given. If you want magic to be rare and special, trying playing Ars Magica, by Atlas games.

Riffington
2010-01-21, 06:26 AM
Then D20 3.5 is a TERRIBLE system to be playing your campaign in, because its challenge ratings and scaling are build with abundant magic as a given. If you want magic to be rare and special, trying playing Ars Magica, by Atlas games.

Ars Magica is a spectacular setting.
However, if your goal in picking a system is "it's easier to use something players already know", you can still use 3.5 You just take the CR with a grain of salt. You know, like you already have to do.

2xMachina
2010-01-21, 06:48 AM
Supernatural here =/= supernatural in D&D.

Do you see undead IRL? Dragons? Magic? Clerics casting spells?

I'd equate D&D magic with tech IRL.

Riffington
2010-01-21, 06:53 AM
Supernatural here =/= supernatural in D&D.

Do you see undead IRL? Dragons? Magic? Clerics casting spells?

I'd equate D&D magic with tech IRL.

If that were true, then Spellcraft would be on every class list, and DCs would be lowered by 10.

2xMachina
2010-01-21, 07:05 AM
Just because it exists commonly doesn't mean you're proficient with it.

Not everyone can make tech. Nor can everyone work out a new item easily. (Wait, what button do I press to get it to do that?)

oxybe
2010-01-21, 08:14 AM
Just because it exists commonly doesn't mean you're proficient with it.

Not everyone can make tech. Nor can everyone work out a new item easily. (Wait, what button do I press to get it to do that?)

as a guy who does tech support, i (regretfully) approve this comment.

Riffington
2010-01-21, 10:53 AM
Just because it exists commonly doesn't mean you're proficient with it.

Not everyone can make tech. Nor can everyone work out a new item easily. (Wait, what button do I press to get it to do that?)

Yes, agreed: not everyone can cast.
But every Exceptional Person should be able to visually identify a "parachute" or a "laser sight".
Heck, in WWII most Brits could identify dozens of planes based on their silhouettes. Even kids who'd never driven an auto let alone flown a plane. If you're an adventurer and your survival often depends on identifying spells, you should know how to identify the 200 most common spells by 1st level. If these things are actually common.

2xMachina
2010-01-21, 11:10 AM
Hmm, that made me think... D&D doesn't seem to emulate learning from experience.

A fighter who sees his wizard buddy cast Fireball for the umpteenth time would still not know what's he's casting just by seeing the components... I'm not even sure he'd know that ball of fire was called a Fireball spell.

taltamir
2010-01-21, 11:15 AM
Yes, agreed: not everyone can cast.
But every Exceptional Person should be able to visually identify a "parachute" or a "laser sight".
Heck, in WWII most Brits could identify dozens of planes based on their silhouettes. Even kids who'd never driven an auto let alone flown a plane. If you're an adventurer and your survival often depends on identifying spells, you should know how to identify the 200 most common spells by 1st level. If these things are actually common.

this goes into the failure of the skill system in general. Before arguing that everyone should have spell craft take a long hard look at why there are even class skills, why there are so many skills, why you must keep the skills maxed out to use them, and why many characters are so skilled starved that they can do nothing (ex: fighter... so i can run and jump, but I cannot swim, parry, tumble, etc... mmmm)

Riffington
2010-01-21, 11:48 AM
this goes into the failure of the skill system in general. Before arguing that everyone should have spell craft take a long hard look at why there are even class skills, why there are so many skills, why you must keep the skills maxed out to use them, and why many characters are so skilled starved that they can do nothing (ex: fighter... so i can run and jump, but I cannot swim, parry, tumble, etc... mmmm)

Well, that may be fair regarding esoteric uses of spellcraft such as deciphering scrolls. For merely identifying spells (in a magic-heavy world) the point about DC stands. A fighter with 1 rank in swim can swim just fine across a river. Won't win a competition, but he gets from point A to point B without going through point drown. 5 ranks in jump gets you across moderate-size pits. Tumble is special, and I wouldn't expect a fighter to get it.