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Superglucose
2010-01-19, 04:08 PM
There's a wealth by level problem in a game I'm playing. Our roleplaying and interactions with the world are great, he's got awesome and fun adventures for us all the time, but there's a huuuuuge problem.

I have a level 3 party who's finally getting their first pieces of MASTERWORK armor. Magic items? Don't make me laugh! My total wealth, excluding starting cash and including all the copper pieces I've thrown away, is approximately 200gp. 200. By level 3.

I understand that we're playing in Ravenloft and that means (apparently) absurdly difficult encounters, but we're barely inking by these CR 8-9 encounters as a level 3 party and we're already this far below WBL tables. I'm scared, honestly, about what's going to happen as we approach the mid levels, 7-9. I'll be fine because I'm a Wizard, I don't need items, and we've got a Druid and a Cleric who'll be able to hold on ok, but we have two fighters and a rogue in the party! Already one of them is bloody useless (by player choice, though, and he can't understand why no one seems to like him IC or OOC), but the Rogue is going to approach useless in combat very quickly, and the other fighter is baaarely managing to stay in as an AC tank.

I kind of want to talk to my GM about it, because he's a reasonable guy. I don't mind us being way below WBL if we're having encounters around CL (so long as we don't fall below 1/2 WBL, which we already are), or having encounters significantly above our CR (you know, the CR7-9s as party level 3) but giving us WBL.

An example is a CR 9 encounter (as calculated by d20 encounter calculator), which gives an expected treasure of 3915.8

We got:
~400 gp
~700 sp
~300 cp
12 small sized scale male which we can only sell for 10gp because the GM likes to make us pay more and sell for less than RAW price
A mwk half plate, small sized
12 hand axes
12 light crossbows
and a mwk hand axe.

Total it up and we end up at ~ 1000gp if we could sell at half price like we're supposed to be able to. Instead we have to sell it all at 1/5 price, which means we're looking at a treasure value of maybe 700 gold... for a CR9 encounter! (10 kobolds, 2 Kobold Fighters with poisoned bolts, 2 3rd level kobold wizards or sorcs, 1 4th level kobold sorc, 1 6th level kobold fighter, 1 2nd or 3rd level kobold monk. The fight was on their terms after we had been mercilessly poisoned for the last two days and were at approximately half-stats because the GM kept ruling that we couldn't sleep for whatever reason)

The more I look at this, the more I realize I *have* to talk to the GM about it. I'm sure he thinks everything is fine because we're managing to pull through his absurd encounters, but we're pulling through them because I'm going nova every bloody encounter. I've taken flack for a while from not being particularly effective in fights where I sit back and let everyone else do most of the work, but I've always held that a Wizard's job, at low levels, is to sit back just in case the encounter starts going badly, and then come in and end it before it gets too disastrous.

I was mostly saving myself for boss fights, and the like, so that my Color Spray of the day, for example, will have more effect then downing two kobolds the fighters should've killed anyways. But I know from my side of the dice the only reason the party is hanging on by the tiny thread it is is because I'm extremely aggressive when playing a low-leveled wizard, something the GM still doesn't seem to expect.

Should I bring this up with him?

Rixx
2010-01-19, 04:10 PM
Only if you think that this is a genuine oversight on his part, and he isn't limiting your treasure on purpose (which, by all accounts, it looks like he is).

Flickerdart
2010-01-19, 04:14 PM
Well, you could invest heavily into buffing spells and try to weather it. What I'm wondering is how a level 3 party with no money can beat CR9 encounters!

Vizzerdrix
2010-01-19, 04:14 PM
Either that, or start casting and selling walls of salt. Or better yet, threaten to cast them in the fields. Farmers will either lynch you, or pay your ransom to prevent their fields from being useless for years if not permanently.


Barring that, Get everyone to agree to take a year off to raise funds. Craft and profession fun!

Flickerdart
2010-01-19, 04:16 PM
Either that, or start casting and selling walls of salt. Or better yet, threaten to cast them in the fields. Farmers will either lynch you, or pay your ransom to prevent their fields from being useless for years if not permanently.


Barring that, Get everyone to agree to take a year off to raise funds. Craft and profession fun!
This is Ravenloft. The farmers are all demons or worse and if you take a year off, you'll have to roll 365 checks against horrible death.

elonin
2010-01-19, 04:21 PM
Good luck with that. I've had a few dm's whose idea of running the game was to control pc wealth. One dm wouldn't let us sell npc weapons/armor at all saying it was all useless, but then not give us other items in compensation. I've actually heard another dm nix a item generated randomly while muttering that that item is genuinely useful. On another topic I've had a dm who said flat out that he assigns 125% of full hp for all our fight encounters.

Well I ended up leaving both of those groups and told the one dm that he controlled me right out of his campaign. But then again he had a bunch of house rules that he just dropped on us during play (no forewarning or discussion) in a way to nix my class abilities.

GolemsVoice
2010-01-19, 04:22 PM
Well, I'd definitely talk to your GM. Unlike some other games, D&D isn't really cut out for the kind of horror that your DM wants to play. Of course his intentions are good. He displays a world just like it really would be, and a great part of horror is helplessness, but I think he is taking things too far. Talk to your DM, explain your problem, ask him why he's running the game the way he does, make suggestions. If you're both sensible adults (or sensible teenagers, or sensible elder gods) you should be able to get to an agreement, or at least you will know why he's doing it this way, and he will know that you might have a problem with that.

Tavar
2010-01-19, 04:23 PM
Well, you could invest heavily into buffing spells and try to weather it. What I'm wondering is how a level 3 party with no money can beat CR9 encounters!

If you look, it was made up of several lower level creatures. Strategy, tactics, and resource expenditure (going nova) can help even the odds. Of course, there are notable weaknesses with this strategy, and even if the odds are even that just means that you will lose as often as you win.

huttj509
2010-01-19, 04:26 PM
Go to your DM in a non-confrontational place (not in front of the rest of the group), and say something like:

"Hey, we seem to be really scrounging for loot here. It seems you're lowering it on purpose, but have you thought about what will happen with the melee types when they need +1 weapons and such to hurt the monsters? Might be lowering it a bit too much. Just wanted to make sure you had thought things through."


This invites either "I know, they won't be useless, just hard up, I'm watching the balance carefully" or "Oh, I hadn't thought of that"...or of course "how dare you question me, blargleargleargleargh!"

But it gets the issue out there.

Vizzerdrix
2010-01-19, 04:29 PM
Shadowsmiths can make some magical gear. It isn't a great option, but better than nothing.

So can Kensai, and the Ancestral Relic feat and Item Familiar feat can also help to get stretch the little bit of cash you are getting.

And Flickerdart:: So what? Regen and state that your new characters are doing the same damn thing. Repeat endlessly. Or abuse VoP. Or just make silly builds or fight nude. The DM should eventually get the hint that the party is not getting what it needs to survive. Adventurers are adventurers for a reason you know.

Also, I wanna turn your name into a spell. Something rare, like a conjuration cantrip maybe.

arguskos
2010-01-19, 04:29 PM
Yeah, I'd say that your DM likely isn't doing it to be a bastard, but because it's Ravenloft, and he's kinda encouraged to do such stuff in Ravenloft. Bring it up in a non-confrontational way, such as over lunch or something, and say, "hey dude, I'm not really hurting for gear, but the others are gonna be pretty soon. Maybe you could give us a big haul or two so we can get back on track and really handle these encounters better?"

valadil
2010-01-19, 04:31 PM
It's perfectly reasonable to ask him if he's going under WBL on purpose. If that's something he's chosen to do specifically for this campaign, he'll probably be happy to tell you why. Just be reasonable and don't make demands.

Superglucose
2010-01-19, 04:33 PM
Well, you could invest heavily into buffing spells and try to weather it. What I'm wondering is how a level 3 party with no money can beat CR9 encounters!
A wizard did it.

Sinfire Titan
2010-01-19, 04:33 PM
He may be trying to encourage the 3 casters in the party to take Craft feats to supply the frontliners with magic items they need.

Ashram
2010-01-19, 04:35 PM
He may be trying to encourage the 3 casters in the party to take Craft feats to supply the frontliners with magic items they need.

Which, by the sound of it, wouldn't happen because they still wouldn't have the crafting money necessary.

Flickerdart
2010-01-19, 04:36 PM
You could make a habit of preying on humanoids of your size, thus either getting lots of loot since they have to rely on gear for strength, or lots of XPs because they'll fall like wheat to a scythe.

Another_Poet
2010-01-19, 04:41 PM
Go to your DM in a non-confrontational place (not in front of the rest of the group), and say something like:

"Hey, we seem to be really scrounging for loot here. It seems you're lowering it on purpose, but have you thought about what will happen with the melee types when they need +1 weapons and such to hurt the monsters? Might be lowering it a bit too much. Just wanted to make sure you had thought things through."


This invites either "I know, they won't be useless, just hard up, I'm watching the balance carefully" or "Oh, I hadn't thought of that"...or of course "how dare you question me, blargleargleargleargh!"

But it gets the issue out there.


This.

Even with your large (6+ person?) party you won't hold out against these overpowering encounters forever. Better get it out in the open.

grautry
2010-01-19, 04:43 PM
Sure, just ask him what his intentions about this are.

If he's throwing very difficult encounters at you when you've only got a small chunk of your expected WBL then maybe he expects for you to optimize like hell.

Is he new to D&D 3.5? Maybe, the matter is as simple as the fact that he simply doesn't understand the CR system and has no idea that he's throwing very difficult encounters at you. Maybe he comes from 4th edition where multiple enemies of your CR = standard encounter, whereas the 'standard encounter' in 3.5 is a single monster of your level.

If he's new at the game then it could also be as simple as the fact that he doesn't understand that WBL is part of character's power and it's assumed that they have to have at least that much gear in order to be competitive.

It's the DM's job to make encounters that are appropriate to the level of player skill and character power. Unless everyone is fine and dandy with very difficult encounters while handicapped that is.

Just talk to him. Obviously, he's not doing this just to frustrate you so there must be one reason or another.

Flickerdart
2010-01-19, 04:45 PM
Or abuse VoP.
An Exalted character in Ravenloft? That'll fall faster than a Paladin.

Daefos
2010-01-19, 04:47 PM
This is Ravenloft. The farmers are all demons or worse and if you take a year off, you'll have to roll 365 checks against horrible death.

Only one a day? :smallconfused:

Glimbur
2010-01-19, 04:47 PM
An Exalted character in Ravenloft? That'll fall faster than a Paladin.

Or you'll glow. Drawing attention is bad.

Grumman
2010-01-19, 04:50 PM
Only one a day? :smallconfused:
Horrible death has a good union.

Superglucose
2010-01-19, 04:50 PM
Just sent him an email saying that while it didn't matter for my character, I was concerned that several other members of the party were underequipped. I pointed out that WBL for level 3 starts at 2,700 and that I have not received more than 300 gp of treasure since the beginning of the campaign, and that I'm worried that what are already nearly insurmountable challenges are going to quickly elevate to impossible if we continue receiving wealth at that rate.

I told him I understood that Ravenloft is supposed to be difficult, I understood that he probably had reasons for it, just that I would like to see some more items come our way. I also thanked him for his great characters (the roleplay really has me excited for the first time in years) and the great game.

:smallsigh:

Things are getting so difficult it's causing problems at the table, tbh. Most of our fights are because we're nearly dying every encounter, and no one's having a good time with the combats. This is just spilling into bad blood between the players, and, consequently, the characters.

:smalleek:

Keeping magic and money down to heighten the danger. Druids, Sorcerors, and Wizards it is then.

Well, since it's Ravenloft, I think I'll open a "Mount" based horse-selling business.

Tyndmyr
2010-01-19, 05:11 PM
Step 1. Go to walmart.

Step 2. Find those little post it stickies with an arrow on them, used to mark pages.

Step 3. Put one on page 54 of his DMG when he's in the bathroom.

Step 4. Wait a week.

Step 5. If nothing changes, go back to step 3, double the amount. Repeat as necessary.

Flickerdart
2010-01-19, 05:12 PM
Until you're using entire packs of stickers at a time? Covering every other page completely? Printing out a poster-sized WBL chart?

Superglucose
2010-01-19, 05:20 PM
Step 1. Go to walmart.

Step 2. Find those little post it stickies with an arrow on them, used to mark pages.

Step 3. Put one on page 54 of his DMG when he's in the bathroom.

Step 4. Wait a week.

Step 5. If nothing changes, go back to step 3, double the amount. Repeat as necessary.
Hmmm...

I'm actually going to wait before doing anything because he might have listened to my plea but wanted to protect his pride. I know people who do that, who pretend to say they're not listening but actually *do* listen just because they want to appear "in charge." I do it all the time :smallredface:

After that, every time we enter town I'm going to have an absurd number of fine light horses for sale, then I'm going to take Craft Wondrous Item and start getting myself items, and for the players who are nice to me. It is, after all, my experience I'm buying their stuff with. Also my money.


Until you're using entire packs of stickers at a time? Covering every other page completely? Printing out a poster-sized WBL chart?

Another wonderful suggestion :smallbiggrin:

Tyndmyr
2010-01-19, 05:20 PM
Absolutely. Say absolutely nothing, but wallpaper the damn room with it.

Bonus points if you use highlighters on the line for your current level.

Kylarra
2010-01-19, 05:23 PM
Things are getting so difficult it's causing problems at the table, tbh. Most of our fights are because we're nearly dying every encounter, and no one's having a good time with the combats. This is just spilling into bad blood between the players, and, consequently, the characters This tells me that it's time for an intervention. If no one but the DM is having fun, then there's something wrong with the campaign.

Lysander
2010-01-19, 05:26 PM
Perhaps if he's not eager to just give you loot for any random monster he can build quests designed just to get you loot. Bank jobs and quests for buried treasure and such.

Or maybe compromise. Instead of loot he can give you bonus feats or extra abilities to make up.

Yakk
2010-01-19, 05:33 PM
You could try "the melee characters are already falling behind due to the lack of magic items. The casters are doing fine."

Advocating for someone else makes it more likely to be accepted by the DM.

Superglucose
2010-01-19, 05:36 PM
I had to go through an HOUR of in-game negotiation to get ONE suit of Full Plate as payment for our most recent adventure. Which we then couldn't complete because at the sight of a CR 7, then the GM saying, "Hmmm, that wasn't powerful enough" and sending a CR 9, the party collectively said "Screw that, we've got to get back to town because we're way underequiped."

When I pointed out that 300gp of treasure for party level 3 is 1/10th WBL (since we're halfway between 3 and 4) his response is "that's on purpose." My first thought was "Thank god I settled on a wizard instead of a melee combatant like the rest of the group wanted." We can't get loot from quests because no one's paying, and the quests are an absurd difficulty level.

It doesn't help that we're really playing 1 man down since the "fighter" has 17 int, 15 cha, 14 str, and plans to multiclass into Monk as soon as he shifts his CG alignment to LN.

EDIT: @Yak:
the gist of my message was, "I'm doing fine but everyone else is under equipped and I feel like they need something more."

I'm *already* giving away all my cash to the party.

Tyndmyr
2010-01-19, 05:40 PM
Oookay. If he's making things tougher by fiat so you don't have a chance and intentionally screwing you over wealth wise, I suspect he's just a really bad DM.

You can try to talk to him about this, but if he seriously thinks "that's on purpose" is sufficient explanation, then he's most likely got a power thing going on. The DM seat doesn't give you superpowers...the other people playing have just as much right to have fun.

Depending on how frustrating it is, you might have a little talk with the other players. At least, it's best to have all of you agreeing on the problem, rather than having conflict with each other. Then consider if you'll take the intervention method, or my personal favorite, the "jump the rails" method.

Delwugor
2010-01-19, 05:47 PM
Talking to the GM should always be the first thing a player with an issue does. And a good GM should at the very least listen and acknowledge the issue and it's impact.

That being said do not expect the GM to say yes. He may have reasons for the players not getting much money. One quick reason I can think of is that characters with better and magic weapons feel more confident about combat. A GM don't necessarily want players and their characters to feel confident in a horror campaign. In fact the only reason I'd do something to raise confidence is so that I can rip it away again to emphasis the despairing situation they are in.

I am running a D&D 3.5 horror campaign (there is no problem running horror in 3.5) where the entire world of Greyhawk is being overwhelmed by "horrors" (not necessarily undead). I am always trying to come up with new ideas that emphasize the horror of what is happening in the world and cast an overall pall of desperation. I had not thought of using money and economies as a tool in my arsenal of horror but thanks to your question it has now become one. :smallsmile:

comicshorse
2010-01-19, 05:49 PM
Posted by superglucose


Our roleplaying and interactions with the world are great, he's got awesome and fun adventures for us all the time,

So what's the problem. The game is working so why worry because a book say's it should be working differently. And I'm speaking here as a rolepalyer and a guy in a fourth level party where we have no magical weapons or armour

tyckspoon
2010-01-19, 05:55 PM
So what's the problem. The game is working so why worry because a book say's it should be working differently. And I'm speaking here as a rolepalyer and a guy in a fourth level party where we have no magical weapons or armour

Because it sounds like the game is on a fast track to not working. Awesome and fun adventures cannot be had when all of the people who are supposed to be participating in them are dead for lack of a +1 sword.

comicshorse
2010-01-19, 06:04 PM
But that's it, to me at least, it doesn't sound like its on the fast track to not working. The g.m. has created a fun and workable game so far doesn't that earn him some respect rather than panicking a bout a problem that he may already have considered and allowed for

Delwugor
2010-01-19, 06:04 PM
Awesome and fun adventures cannot be had when all of the people who are supposed to be participating in them are dead for lack of a +1 sword.
True for the traditional heroic D&D but this campaign is a Ravenloft horror which is completely different in many aspects.

Kylarra
2010-01-19, 06:09 PM
But that's it, to me at least, it doesn't sound like its on the fast track to not working. The g.m. has created a fun and workable game so far doesn't that earn him some respect rather than panicking a bout a problem that he may already have considered and allowed for
Well... this says that there is a problem and that it's not working as smoothly as people who aren't the DM think it should be. The almost dying part isn't an issue, it's the latter half.


Things are getting so difficult it's causing problems at the table, tbh. Most of our fights are because we're nearly dying every encounter, and no one's having a good time with the combats. This is just spilling into bad blood between the players, and, consequently, the characters

Superglucose
2010-01-19, 06:13 PM
So what's the problem. The game is working so why worry because a book say's it should be working differently. And I'm speaking here as a rolepalyer and a guy in a fourth level party where we have no magical weapons or armour
Because the roleplaying is only a part of what makes D&D, well, D&D. There's role playing, then there's jumping into the dungeon and killing the dragon. Right now we can sort of role play, but we're just sort of waiting for the next horrendously overpowered encounter to be thrown at us so we can (barely) manage to stay alive through a combination of tactics and luck.

Delwugor
2010-01-19, 06:27 PM
Right now we can sort of role play, but we're just sort of waiting for the next horrendously overpowered encounter to be thrown at us so we can (barely) manage to stay alive through a combination of tactics and luck.
This is exactly how I hope my players feel in my campaign. This is the player fear that is hard to achieve and even harder to keep.
This is the Lovecraftian horror that Ravenloft is best suited for.

The problem then might not be how much money or equipment the characters have but whether a psychological horror campaign is the right thing for the players. Maybe a Tomb of Horrors approach might me more appropriate, the classic Zombie Hunt can be awesome fun for many people.

Grumman
2010-01-19, 06:32 PM
This is exactly how I hope my players feel in my campaign. This is the player fear that is hard to achieve and even harder to keep.
Are you sure it's fear, and not just annoyance about their role-playing being interrupted by unfun combat?

comicshorse
2010-01-19, 06:34 PM
so we can (barely) manage to stay alive through a combination of tactics and luck.

I think we have a fundamental difference in what we see as a fun game. Cause what you described above I'd see as pretty much the perfect encounter, something testing that required every bit of our tactics and smarts to win

Nightson
2010-01-19, 06:34 PM
Get the other players involved and ask them their views on things. Always collaborate, it may turn out you have the minority opinion, and it will help the DM to not see it as the problem that Player X has with the campaign but rather the problem that all the players have with the campaign.

Superglucose
2010-01-19, 06:36 PM
This is exactly how I hope my players feel in my campaign. This is the player fear that is hard to achieve and even harder to keep.
This is the Lovecraftian horror that Ravenloft is best suited for.
It's not fear. It's dread. Not at player death, but dread at "Groan, thirty fifteenth level orcs. Well ok, time to ****** roll another ******* character."



The problem then might not be how much money or equipment the characters have but whether a psychological horror campaign is the right thing for the players. Maybe a Tomb of Horrors approach might me more appropriate, the classic Zombie Hunt can be awesome fun for many people.
You can run horrifying combat without grossly underpowering your players. I know, I've done it. Frequently. I encouraged people to be coming to GitP to work on their builds, had them roll 5d6 for better stats, give them above WBL, and still can manage to almost TPK with at-level CRs.

I am ok with difficult encounters with feeling helpless. I also don't mind being underequipped.

I mind watching all of the other players get frustrated and want to re-roll because they feel like their characters are worthless in combat even though they *aren't,* it's just that they're consistently rolling one short on attack rolls and damage. Because, you know, they don't have a +1 weapon. The cleric is playing FINE, but she feels useless because she gets hit every time anything swings at her... because she has to wear scale mail and is asked to front-line tank with an AC of 14. The Druid is FINE, but he keeps collapsing because he wasn't given any starting cash at all and had to subsist with just clothing and a staff, so his AC was 8... and he also had to front-line tank. The Rogue is FINE, but with a non-magical crossbow there isn't a damn thing she can do in combat since her focus is in skills so she feels useless.

There's under-equipped and there's "My 20th level fighter is still using a MWK longsword because no one was willing to sell him a Greatsword for a reasonable price since over 20 levels he managed to pull six hundred gold."

Delwugor
2010-01-19, 06:45 PM
Are you sure it's fear, and not just annoyance about their role-playing being interrupted by unfun combat?
Nope I'm running a horror campaign and they are role-playing (and feeling) fear.
Also my players do not equate unfun combat with difficulty, losing or running away (as happens often).
I have stated several time that if they are uncomfortable with it I can easily switch it to a heroic fantasy. None of my players has wanted to do so - so I'm guessing that I'm doing an acceptable job scaring the crap out of them. :smallbiggrin:

One misconception I'm catching here is trying to make Ravenloft Horror equivocal to D&D Heroic Fantasy, and it is not. That is why I had said that maybe Heroes of Horrors (sorry got the name wrong earlier) may be much more appropriate than Ravenloft.

Superglucose
2010-01-19, 06:58 PM
There's losing "Oh we were slightly overmatched" and there's losing "Oh, here's a CR 15 dragon for each of you!" The former can be fun. The latter is not.

Eldariel
2010-01-19, 07:02 PM
There's losing "Oh we were slightly overmatched" and there's losing "Oh, here's a CR 15 dragon for each of you!" The former can be fun. The latter is not.

Well, if the latter is a consequence of "You pissed off a family of Dragons", it's both well-deserved and a good way to go.

oxybe
2010-01-19, 07:06 PM
the easiest way to add "horror" without amping the difficulty is to do 2 things:

obfuscate the truth & reality: make things many different shades of gray and harder to decide what's right/wrong and what is true/false. make the characters debate over their actions.

is it right to kill the good cleric possessed by the demon? the cleric himself has doing nothing wrong and isn't aware of the possession, but the only way to defeat the demon parasite who is slaughtering the street walkers is to kill the cleric host. in a world like ravenloft where you can't always default to "we can rez him later", this should cause the PCs to deliberate the course of action, should they have some sort of moral compass.

simply dropping a thick mist they can't "gust of wind" away can cause some panic, especially if you add strange shadows and lighting. blocking divination in some areas can cause players to worry and fret. sowing misinformation about a BBEG's abilities or location. don't do this too often, just often enough to keep them on their toes.

another is make failure to succeed an option they don't want. give their failure to beat the BBEG within X time a definite impact. fail to destroy the magical gem that channels the lighting that powers his doom cannon before it fires? BOOM! there goes Idyllic Village and all it's inhabitants. you might have saved future towns from destruction, but Idyllic Village is destroyed and it's on your shoulders.

horror isn't fighting an enemy underequipped. horror is fighting an enemy unprepared for what he can do or what the consequences of failure are.

Sinfire Titan
2010-01-19, 07:12 PM
Well, if the latter is a consequence of "You pissed off a family of Dragons", it's both well-deserved and a good way to go.

And a good time to summon Pazuzu.

Crow
2010-01-19, 07:23 PM
It sounds like your game is working fine. A +1 sword isn't going to make a whole hell of a lot of difference against encounters that are 5 to 6 CR above your level, and the simple fact that your group is handling CR's that much higher than your party level tells me you don't really need it anyways.

Hell, some monsters have NO treasure at all.

If you were facing encounters appropriate for your level and struggling, I would be on your side. But this comes off as a player entitlement issue to me. Just because it says something on a certain page of the DMG doesn't mean your game HAS to work that way. God help us if your DM ever uses a *gasp* homebrewed monster.

BRC
2010-01-19, 07:30 PM
It sounds like your game is working fine. A +1 sword isn't going to make a whole hell of a lot of difference against encounters that are 5 to 6 CR above your level, and the simple fact that your group is handling CR's that much higher than your party level tells me you don't really need it anyways.

Hell, some monsters have NO treasure at all.

If you were facing encounters appropriate for your level and struggling, I would be on your side. But this comes off as a player entitlement issue to me. Just because it says something on a certain page of the DMG doesn't mean your game HAS to work that way. God help us if your DM ever uses a *gasp* homebrewed monster.
Except that it's negatively impacting the game. It would be one thing if the players thrived on beating incredible odds with few resources, but from the sound of things they don't.

Now, my recommendation is you poll the group, ask them if they think the DM should either get closer to WBL or tone down the encounters. If so, you can present a unified front against the DM, if not, it appears the rest of the group doesn't have a problem with it.

oxybe
2010-01-19, 07:35 PM
note that it's against multiple low level enemies, mostly fighter types, not against one big CR 9 monster.

when most enemies have the HP to go down in 1-2 hits and don't have DR or elemental/spell resistance to negate damage & spells, it's possible to beat them even if it is theoretically above your level.

the problem is that once you get into higher level monsters with more HP and DR/magic or DR/special material territory and your best weapon is a masterwork longsword, unless you're playing the min/max game your fighter types will be in trouble. mages aren't as gear-dependent as your melee types but they will still feel the hurt... it's just not as pronounced.

VladtheLad
2010-01-19, 08:38 PM
I have been in EXACT same situation, so bare with me.

My dm wanted to run a medieval "horror" campaign, which allowed no other races than humans and half elves.

He was really passionate about it and I happily enrolled thinking "nice we are going to face lots of undead and abominations".

In the first levels we didn't have any problem. But after we hit 4 things got a bit too hard.

The dm was a good friend of mine, he had played in my campaign for 3 years and I had gamed under him several times.

I talked to him about giving us some items. To which his response was that this was absolutely out of question and would heavily conflict with the spirit of the campaign.

I thought about it a bit and realized he was right. Lots of magic items weren't right for this campaign.

He also understood that without items we would have absolutely no chance at higher levels...

So we came to a solution.
A solution that allowed us to be every bit as powerful as our gear per level dictated AND increase the horror factor of the campaign.

The solution is: "He who fights with monsters should be careful least he thereby becomes a monster. When you stare at the abyss, the abyss stares back at you".

Its simple actually our pcs would be affected by the forces they faced and would gain powers with otherwordly flavour based on the gold per level table of the DMG.

Here are 2 short examples:

The sorcerers grand mother, who was an aboleth worshiping witch gave him a shell. The shell allowed the sorcerer to contact an unknown entity in his dreams. The entity rewarded the sorcerer with powers. Powers such the ability to increase the duration of his spells (lesser rod of extend), and stop blows by the power of his will(ring of deflection).

My character who was a cleric befriended a powerful fundamentalistic preacher of the church of saint Pelor. When a monster ate his brain I took his belt which was made from the hair of an angel. As I wore it I saw around me the spirits of the dead clerics that had wore the belt in the past. They talked to me and agreed to advise and guide me to my destiny.
I started to become something more than a man and eventually a third eye appeared in my forehead granting me a +4 wisdom.

The fighter found a cursed aztec amulet that gave him great powers and an even greater bloodlust. While the ranger was infected by a swamp monster and started to transform into a plant creature (hair/teeth falling off and all that Jazz).

Normal people eventually started to fear our characters as much as the monsters we protected them from.

In the end our characters personalities were heavily affected by the changes and we had the choice to either cling to our humanity or embrace our new inhuman nature.

It ended up being the best campaign I have ever been part of.

The only bad part was that I had to "level up" the pcs "items" because nobody else wanted to do the job.

Ah well...

Talk to your dm maybe he will like the concept...

IMPORTANT NOTE: the powers gained allow the dm to f**k with you very badly, it would be better if he avoided doing so.

Kantolin
2010-01-19, 08:42 PM
Honestly, uh. Exceptionally little gear is actually pretty normal, if it's the setting we just went through. Summarily, it's probable that he's just following a module.

That /said/, it sounds like you're not having fun, so... yeah, talk to him. I mean, if a central part of the game is 'Scraping together goods', and nobody enjoys that besides possibly the DM, then... um... someone needs to give, and it's probably the DM.

Kelb_Panthera
2010-01-19, 08:45 PM
I can see where the OP's coming from. It sounds to me like he's got either an inexperienced DM, or a DM who misunderstands the term "horror." I think your best bet in this situation is for the group as a whole to spend their next session hashing out the problem, until they come to an agreement on how to fix the problem. But I've always been a fan of taking that sort of direct approach to a problem. If everybody stays calm, and speaks their mind, this approach usually works.

PlzBreakMyCmpAn
2010-01-19, 11:20 PM
1) Ask the DM what % he wants to be in comparison to WBL. This way he will think about it.

2) If he says 10% or something silly, the solution is some teamwork. A) Pool your money. B) Retrain feats for both the divine and arcane casters who have the most. C) Abuse crafting to gain more than full WBL for all who pitched in. And Yes I know you are at 1/9th WBL - its still doable... if you can survive long enough / pull enough cheese to finish the needed feats.

3) Are you guys playing Expedition to... or the old 3.0 Ravenloft campaign setting? How much of that still holds official status anyways?

Superglucose
2010-01-19, 11:27 PM
In terms of money, I've got a plan: horse farm. in Ravenloft, summoned creatures don't go away, and Mount is a summon spell. I don't even need to bother with the hat of disguise or the Nystyl's Magic Aura spell!

Eldariel
2010-01-20, 04:30 AM
note that it's against multiple low level enemies, mostly fighter types, not against one big CR 9 monster.

when most enemies have the HP to go down in 1-2 hits and don't have DR or elemental/spell resistance to negate damage & spells, it's possible to beat them even if it is theoretically above your level.

the problem is that once you get into higher level monsters with more HP and DR/magic or DR/special material territory and your best weapon is a masterwork longsword, unless you're playing the min/max game your fighter types will be in trouble. mages aren't as gear-dependent as your melee types but they will still feel the hurt... it's just not as pronounced.

This isn't a problem if the party has Mages; Greater Magic Weapon means your mundane non-Mw. Sword is just as good as the greatest magic swords. Overall, DR isn't as big a problem as simply numerically matching up to said creatures. Of course, casters can bypass the numbers quite often.

Zombimode
2010-01-20, 06:07 AM
Because the roleplaying is only a part of what makes D&D, well, D&D. There's role playing, then there's jumping into the dungeon and killing the dragon. Right now we can sort of role play, but we're just sort of waiting for the next horrendously overpowered encounter to be thrown at us so we can (barely) manage to stay alive through a combination of tactics and luck.

Sounds to me how any adventure should be :)

Tyndmyr
2010-01-20, 09:48 AM
It sounds like your game is working fine. A +1 sword isn't going to make a whole hell of a lot of difference against encounters that are 5 to 6 CR above your level, and the simple fact that your group is handling CR's that much higher than your party level tells me you don't really need it anyways.

There is a huge gap between a single monster +5 CR above the party and simply a horde of level appropriate, or sub level appropriate mooks.

15 orc warriors, for example, is roughly a CR 7 encounter, or +4 CR above the party. In practice, orcs, while CR 1/2, are one of the nastiest creatures at CR 1/2. Thus, I'd estimate it as closer to a CR 8. However, they have low hp, so they're manageable. Pick a CR 7/8 dragon now, and the entire level 3 party will die. Now, we come back to the orcs. They do a pretty good amount of damage. With their +4 to hit, they'll be hitting most of the party at least half the time.

This means that anybody getting hit needs only a little bad luck to die. Once one person goes down, the odds of the entire plan going to hell and a TPK happening skyrocket. When the best armor you have is AC 14 because nobody can afford mundane plate, something is wrong.

As they level, there is an assumption that they'll be gaining power via gold. Thus, a +4 CR encounter at level 6 will be more difficult for them than a +4 CR encounter at level 3. Either this will result in encounters being adjusted downwards heavily, sort of ruining the terror feel, or a TPK.

Sinfire Titan
2010-01-20, 10:17 AM
Sounds to me how any adventure should be :)

No, it sounds like "We're getting incredibly lucky against horrible odds and the DM is rewarding us with toothpicks instead of actual loot for an encounter of this difficulty".

Tyndmyr
2010-01-20, 10:20 AM
How are the encounters presented to you? I mean, from an IC perspective, I'd be unlikely to risk my life for a few copper pieces.

A "screw this, lets get the hell outta here" or "feh, nothing matters anyhow, lets just avoid things that'll kill us" sort of attitude seems quite appropriate after enough of this.

2xMachina
2010-01-20, 10:23 AM
I'm kinda surprised you survived... Maybe the DM is secretly saving you by fudging or something like that?

DementedFellow
2010-01-20, 10:23 AM
Tyndmyr is right. What possible motivation is there for the PCs to go out and adventure when they are barely any more richer than they started.

Next level, have everyone buff up their profession skill of their choice. And then stay x number of weeks in town until you reach your WBL or a happy median between.

jiriku
2010-01-20, 10:38 AM
The horse farm idea is clever! However, I'll be surprised if your DM allows it to work, since his stated intent is that you should not have nice things.

An intervention could work, but if the DM says "this is the game I want to run" is everyone in your group mature enough to either a) live with it, or b) kill the campaign and have someone else DM, all without creating hurt feelings? There are people in my group who couldn't handle that gracefully.


Some ideas:

Characters
Everybody with a wealth-dependent character should get themselves killed ASAP and reroll a Tier 1, 2, or 3 character, optimized to function in a no-WBL environment. This will make your DM happy, because he wants a PC bodycount, and it will make the other players happy, because their characters will be effective.

We'll help with builds! It would be a fun experiment to optimize for no-gold gaming. I know I have a build or two your cleric could use that by level 5 would have AC 20 and consistently one-shot most opponents as a melee touch attack, and can do it all while stark naked.


Crafting
Before investing in item creation feats, ask your DM, "If we take item creation feats and invest experience in creating magic items, is that an acceptable way for us to stretch our wealth, or would you simply give us half as much gold in response?" Make sure he won't insta-nerf you.

Also, get craft skills. Crafting is too slow for masterwork gear, but you could make any nonmagical weapon in less than a week for 1/3 the cost, stretching your gp. However, before investing the skill points, ask your DM "if we spend skill points on crafting skills and make our own gear, is that an acceptable way for us to stretch our wealth, or would you use plot devices to interrupt us every time we craft?" Head off the in-play nerf!

Delwugor
2010-01-20, 02:41 PM
Sounds like there is more than just one problem you and/or other players are having. But to me the root problem seems to be a disconnect between what the GM is doing and what you and others are expecting.

The only thing to do is talk to the GM. If the entire group is having similar problems then do it together.

tyckspoon
2010-01-20, 05:20 PM
Some ideas:

Characters
Everybody with a wealth-dependent character should get themselves killed ASAP and reroll a Tier 1, 2, or 3 character, optimized to function in a no-WBL environment. This will make your DM happy, because he wants a PC bodycount, and it will make the other players happy, because their characters will be effective.

We'll help with builds! It would be a fun experiment to optimize for no-gold gaming. I know I have a build or two your cleric could use that by level 5 would have AC 20 and consistently one-shot most opponents as a melee touch attack, and can do it all while stark naked.


Ravenloft hilarity: Everybody plays Vow of Poverty Incarnates or Totemists.

Grumman
2010-01-20, 05:30 PM
Ravenloft hilarity: Everybody plays Vow of Poverty Incarnates or Totemists.
They need a hireling, whose job it is to carry the loot until they find someone non-evil to donate it to.

Kylarra
2010-01-20, 06:26 PM
They need a hireling, whose job it is to carry the loot until they find someone non-evil to donate it to.They can technically carry it, just not use any of it. :smallamused:

Sinfire Titan
2010-01-20, 06:26 PM
Ravenloft hilarity: Everybody plays Vow of Poverty Incarnates or Totemists.

1 Druid, and 3 VoP Totemists with Martial Stance (Martial Spirit). The Druid is there to be a base-line.

Kislath
2010-01-20, 06:29 PM
This is a mess.
This DM doesn't seem to really quite get that games are supposed to be FUN, and that different people have different ideas about what qualifies as fun.

I've run Ravenloft games plenty of times, and while the players were always run through the wringer, they always had a great time. I don't mistake Gothic horror with Lovecraftian, you see, and make sure that the players have a fair chance and a bit of hope. They still have to stay on their toes, of course.

In my games, I try to pay close attention to the amount of trouble the party is having and adjust accordingly. It's pretty easy in my games to get killed by doing something stupid, but no one ever bought the farm unfairly due to my never giving them a chance. the A-#1 rule of DMing has always been "Be fair."

This DM is not being fair. I don't know why. Maybe he doesn't get it. Maybe he's trying to make things hard but is going too far and doesn't realize it. Maybe he just doesn't care. I dunno.

Is this an experienced DM or a newbie? If a newb, then it makes sense. If experienced, then it's time to take away the sadistic fun he's having at the player's expense. Don't play his little reindeer game anymore. Just sit around the tavern for several game days, constantly coming up with some sort of timewasting distractions guaranteed to drive the DM crazy. Let the characters make a few mentions of how it's not worth going out there for no good reason. Know that he'll no doubt bring the adventure to YOU, but a tavern can be made fairly defensible. It can be like any number of movies you've seen where a party tries to barricade itself inside some building. After a while, he'll get tired of your little sitdown strike and either give up or let the treasure flow.

comicshorse
2010-01-20, 07:13 PM
What possible motivation is there for the PCs to go out and adventure when they are barely any more richer than they started.


Duty, love, patrotism, loyalty, survival, occur for starters

Jayabalard
2010-01-20, 08:03 PM
I have a level 3 party who's finally getting their first pieces of MASTERWORK armor. Magic items? Don't make me laugh! My total wealth, excluding starting cash and including all the copper pieces I've thrown away, is approximately 200gp. 200. By level 3.I'm sorry, but I don't really see the problem. WBL is just a guideline. There's nothing wrong with ignoring it and giving drastically different levels of wealth.


How are the encounters presented to you? I mean, from an IC perspective, I'd be unlikely to risk my life for a few copper pieces. 700 gold is not a few copper pieces. Real people in the real world risk their lives for less.

And really, in ravenloft it's not so much that you go looking for adventure but that adventure is going to be looking for you. Sitting out on the sideline isn't going to up your survivability.


Because it sounds like the game is on a fast track to not working. Awesome and fun adventures cannot be had when all of the people who are supposed to be participating in them are dead for lack of a +1 sword.Not really, it sounds to me like the game is on track and going well, but someone is getting hung up on the fact that the DM is ignoring some guidelines in a book. Being printed in a rulebook doesn't mean that it's "the way" ... and if you disregard that text that doesn't mean that "your doing it wrong"


Step 1. Go to walmart.

Step 2. Find those little post it stickies with an arrow on them, used to mark pages.

Step 3. Put one on page 54 of his DMG when he's in the bathroom.

Step 4. Wait a week.

Step 5. If nothing changes, go back to step 3, double the amount. Repeat as necessary.If you have a problem with how the GM is running the game, behavior like that is just being an asshat. It's not really helpful at all.


Well, I'd definitely talk to your GM. Unlike some other games, D&D isn't really cut out for the kind of horror that your DM wants to play. That kind of horror is pretty much the purpose of Ravenloft.

Susano-wo
2010-01-20, 09:10 PM
Ok, I need to come to the Ravenloft Misinformation Defense
2E Ravenloft was a weekend in hell (to use their term for it). 3E Ravenloft is supposed to be campaign sustainable. There are places within Ravenloft where the Domain Lord is either apathetic toward such matters as having a "Good" person around, or such as Leif (or however you spell it >.>) where there is no Domain Lord--he just vanished. On top of that, though domain lords have detection abilities within their domain, normal detect good and evil don't work--instead they become detect Law/Chaos.
SO you can play a good character, even an Exalted one. Though you are running a terrible risk.

Now, to contribute to the topic. My biggest question is the encounter structure. If they are presented as unavoidable, then yeah, you need to make your planned quest fight doable. If he is running more of a persistent world, where X monster exists in Y place, and if you go there, you will encounter it, though you are not necessarily required to charge in, 'guns' blazing, then you may fight things waaay to powerful
I guess the shorter version is this: He could be (though it doesn't sound like he is) trying to run a campaign where you don't necessarily fight everything. where you have to evaluate whether you can take it, and there may be many times where you go "oh *&*^&!!!! Abort abort!" (to use words I would never use in-game :P).
I am planning on enjoying such a scenario come Sunday in my group, where we have accidentally caused someone in our past who is very important to our present to get sucked into the dimension where an undead dragon god is sealed away. We, for reasons of honor and altruism, feel the need to get him back, so we are going to jump in after him. We sure as hell aren't going to try to fight the god, or his minions, unless we think we can pet em down real easy--otherwise we are screwed.

That being said, the point is valid that all parties should enjoy the game, so if one isn't, much less most of the group, that's a problem.

tyckspoon
2010-01-20, 09:27 PM
I'm sorry, but I don't really see the problem. WBL is just a guideline. There's nothing wrong with ignoring it and giving drastically different levels of wealth.


Did you miss the part where the drastically undergeared level 3 party is being regularly attacked by EL 9+ encounters? Such as the one described in the OP, consisting of:

10 kobolds, 2 Kobold Fighters with poisoned bolts, 2 3rd level kobold wizards or sorcs, 1 4th level kobold sorc, 1 6th level kobold fighter, 1 2nd or 3rd level kobold monk.

Which is 17 opponents for 6 level 3 characters. 17 opponents that includes 3 casters and one highly over-leveled Fighter whose AC and attack bonuses were probably higher than any two of the party members put together. If the DM used less crazily lethal encounters, being undergeared wouldn't be as much of a problem. If the party had the resources the game was planned around, fighting such over-level encounters would be much more manageable (although still likely lethal, as it doesn't sound like the OP's party is especially well optimized.) Put both factors together, and something needs to change.

Jayabalard
2010-01-20, 09:32 PM
Did you miss the part where the drastically undergeared level 3 party is being regularly attacked by EL 9+ encounters? No, I didn't miss it. I think it was in the same post where the OP said "Our roleplaying and interactions with the world are great, he's got awesome and fun adventures for us all the time"

Seriously, if everyone is having fun, roleplaying is going well, what does it matter if some numbers don't match the guidelines in a book?

Sinfire Titan
2010-01-20, 09:40 PM
No, I didn't miss it. I think it was in the same post where the OP said "Our roleplaying and interactions with the world are great, he's got awesome and fun adventures for us all the time"

Seriously, if everyone is having fun, roleplaying is going well, what does it matter if some numbers don't match the guidelines in a book?

"Don't match"? Try "Not on the damn map". These guys have roughly a grand between all 6 of them. They should have roughly 2700 each. They aren't standing up to the encounters because their optimizers, they're standing up to them because of luck and tactical thinking, and are slowly being backed into a corner. I doubt they will gain 2 more levels before the noncasters get wiped and the fullcasters are forced to retreat without the corpses.


This means that 3 of the players must become frustrated over not being able to contribute to the encounter while the casters get to do all of the dirty work every time. Furthermore, the OP has stated that the players are becomming upset OOC because they are underpowered.

Jayabalard
2010-01-20, 09:50 PM
"Don't match"? Try "Not on the damn map". These guys have roughly a grand between all 6 of them.Meh, I don't see your point.


They should have roughly 2700 each.No, should isn't an accurate word; the guidelines in the book suggest 2700 each. The amount they "should" may have nothing to do with that number (and in this case, it doesn't), it's strictly a factor of the particular game they are playing.


This means that 3 of the players must may become frustrated over not being able to contribute to the encounter while the casters get to do all of the dirty work every time.Fixed; 3 of the players may become frustrated, not must; the GM may be able to balance encounters so that everyone continues to have "awesome and fun adventures". If not, and it actually becomes a problem, that's when they should treat it as a problem and deal with it. There's no reason to preemptively assume that it is definitely going become a problem simply because the book says something else.

Kelb_Panthera
2010-01-20, 09:54 PM
No, I didn't miss it. I think it was in the same post where the OP said "Our roleplaying and interactions with the world are great, he's got awesome and fun adventures for us all the time"

Seriously, if everyone is having fun, roleplaying is going well, what does it matter if some numbers don't match the guidelines in a book?

The OP also said that the fact that they're so drastically behind on gear is grating on all of the players nerves. That will lead to the fun falling behind the aggravation and the game dissolving, which is an undesirable outcome. *IF* in the encounter he described, the enemies were all as close to naked as the party, then it wouldn't be so bad. Unfortunately the OP goes on to say that whatever gear they had wasn't salvageable. That sounds to me like the DM intentionally preventing a perfectly justifiable wealth gain. Their crossbows and other ranged weapons, which should've never been targeted by anything weren't salvageable? The wizards' spellbooks were somehow destroyed in-spite of the normal precautions any wizard would take to prevent it? There's a difference between handing out little wealth, and handing the PC's a great big "F*** you, bwa ha ha ha!!"

Sinfire Titan
2010-01-20, 09:57 PM
Meh, I don't see your point.

{Scrubbed}


No, should isn't an accurate word; the guidelines in the book suggest 2700 each. The amount they "should" may have nothing to do with that number (and in this case, it doesn't), it's strictly a factor of the particular game they are playing.

The rules of the game are designed with the WBL being specifically accounted for. Removing it or increasing it by any amount calls for a similar change to the encounters, as the DMG warns. The OP's DM has shown no such mercy, and has actually been throwing harder and harder encounters at them in spite of the DMG's recommendations. The results are becoming identical to what the DMG's authors anticipated would happen: the players are becomming frustrated, and OOC in-fighting is occuring.



Fixed; 3 of the players may become frustrated, not must; the GM may be able to balance encounters so that everyone continues to have "awesome and fun adventures". If not, and it actually becomes a problem, that's when they should treat it as a problem and deal with it. There's no reason to preemptively assume that it is definitely going become a problem simply because the book says something else.

3 of the players have become frustrated, as the OP has confirmed. You are ignoring this fact.

Kabump
2010-01-20, 10:02 PM
Seriously, if everyone is having fun, roleplaying is going well, what does it matter if some numbers don't match the guidelines in a book?

That's the problem though, things aren't going well. The roleplaying and story seem to be fine yes, but when its time for combat, its not fun.



Things are getting so difficult it's causing problems at the table, tbh. Most of our fights are because we're nearly dying every encounter, and no one's having a good time with the combats. This is just spilling into bad blood between the players, and, consequently, the characters.


Enjoying 2 out of 3, but absolutely loathing combat still could lead to trouble, and the issue with combat is the extent to which they are under geared. I agree, the DM doesn't HAVE to follow the guidelines for WBL, and I understand the reasons its being done. Doesn't change the fact that it does seem to be causing an issue with at least one of the players.

Jayabalard
2010-01-20, 10:20 PM
3 of the players have become frustrated, as the OP has confirmed. You are ignoring this fact.No, I'm just a bit skeptical of that statement, and I think it's not as important as the fact that the OP is clearly very hung up on what the book says they should have. I find that sort of attitude to be a bigger problem than anything else in his post, so I'm focusing my comments on that. Its quite possible that he's letting his own hangups that are based on some numbers in the book cause him to misrepresent how the rest of the group feels about the lack of wealth.

There are plenty of people giving good advice on how to deal with it as a problem, if it actually is one. There's no reason for me to repeat them, though I will say that I wouldn't necessarily expect this DM to change much on the wealth issue; you're probably best to focus on real problems (if for example, people aren't enjoying combat), and look for other solutions, as a group.

The Deej
2010-01-20, 10:43 PM
I told him I understood that Ravenloft is supposed to be difficult, I understood that he probably had reasons for it, just that I would like to see some more items come our way. I also thanked him for his great characters (the roleplay really has me excited for the first time in years) and the great game.

:smallsigh:

Things are getting so difficult it's causing problems at the table, tbh. Most of our fights are because we're nearly dying every encounter, and no one's having a good time with the combats. This is just spilling into bad blood between the players, and, consequently, the characters.


The above quote clearly demonstrates that though the OP loves the roleplay aspect of the game, the combat aspect is not fun at all, and is actually driving a wedge between people both in and out of game.

And for those who essentially keep saying: "I don't know what the problem is, I think that that sounds like fun", please keep in mind that the OP has stated that HIS party DOES NOT think that it is fun. Different strokes for different folks. Projecting your definitions of fun onto his situation doesn't help him improve it.

As for my advice, I agree with confronting the DM about it. If you can get the entire group at once to tell him that their gaming experience (at least the combat aspect) is not what they were expecting, and would like a change. If he refuses, consider getting the group to agree to scrap the current campaign and start a new one.

AFS
2010-01-21, 01:07 AM
You ever think about running away?

Not every battle is supposed to be fair.

Of course on the flip side not every battle is supposed to be close to impossible.

Use the role playing to your advantage. Be in control.

Hire some mercs and offer that their share is a large amount.

We can pay you two thousand now plus fifteen when we get to Alderaan.

I'm sure the DM has something in mind, or he is just a jerk.

These are the cards you are delt, play or fold. What I mean by that is play to the strengths of the game. Some if not all combat situations can be avoided, unless the DM is a jerk. Scout around, always have a watch while camping, don't sleep with the mayor's daughter, if you bump into someone in the tavern buy em a drink, etc etc etc.

If the DM then forces you into combat, then he is just being a jerk and it is time to fold and play another game.

The_Jackal
2010-01-21, 03:08 AM
Repeat after me: 'I quit'.

Seriously, however, show him the numbers. Compare the wealth by level with your actual wealth, and show him how far outclasses you guys are and continue to be.

I'm in a similar, you have to say on skinflint GMs, or they'll starve you until you can't do anything.

Superglucose
2010-01-21, 03:38 AM
"Don't match"? Try "Not on the damn map". These guys have roughly a grand between all 6 of them. They should have roughly 2700 each. They aren't standing up to the encounters because their optimizers, they're standing up to them because of luck and tactical thinking, and are slowly being backed into a corner. I doubt they will gain 2 more levels before the noncasters get wiped and the fullcasters are forced to retreat without the corpses.
*coughs* optimizer. Singular. And frankly it took everything I had to keep us in it. Obscuring Mist to take out half their enemies, two choke points created by burning logs, covertly taking other people's turns for them (passing notes on what they *had* to do to survive).

The reasons combats are starting to become problematic is that I have to take a bigger and bigger role with each combat. It started with greasing under 1HD zombies so the fighters could hit a prone target, but now it's getting to me casting a spell from the perfect position targeting the perfect people every round and calling out targets and actions for everyone else.

I don't like that, the other players don't like that, but if I don't do it the other players ASK me what they should do, which implies that they feel they need it.

Kislath
2010-01-21, 04:32 AM
The more I hear, the more I think that this DM is trying to run a game he can't handle. Hey, it happens.

The lack of any +1 weapons which would allow you to hit those things that can only be hit with magic weapons is a big problem, to be sure. I am assuming that your casters are already using spells which confer temporary plusses to your steel? maybe you could try to find ways of making those spells last longer, or be easier to cast. I tend to doubt that this DM will ever let you get away with it, but discussing it openly might, just might, get some gears turning in his head to providing you with just such a method. As a mortal, Strahd was something of an inventor, right? Maybe he made some sort of low-level spell amplifier thingy which is currently collecting dust in some dank basement? Just an idea you could mention in such a way that the DM thinks it's his own idea.

Zid
2010-01-21, 05:03 AM
A game of DnD isn´t WoW. The WBL are guidelines, not strict rules that have to be followed. A DM has the option of letting the PCs get no treasure whatsoever during an entire campaign.

The real problem here seems to be that the DM wants to run a campaign where just surviving until the next day is a goal in itself. Maybe this campaign style doesn´t fit all of the players. If you´re not having fun, you are not playing D&D

Kyeudo
2010-01-21, 11:07 AM
A game of DnD isn´t WoW. The WBL are guidelines, not strict rules that have to be followed. A DM has the option of letting the PCs get no treasure whatsoever during an entire campaign.


They shouldn't be completely ignored unless the DM is experienced in dealing with the problems it causes or the group agrees to the challenges it causes. It does not look like either of them is the case here, so they'll probably all die here inside a level or two, as they are facing encounters 6 CRs above the expected on a regular basis.



The real problem here seems to be that the DM wants to run a campaign where just surviving until the next day is a goal in itself. Maybe this campaign style doesn´t fit all of the players. If you´re not having fun, you are not playing D&D

The OP has stated that they as a group are not having fun. They need to, as a group, tell the DM to either give them treasure, bring down the CR of their Encounters, or start a new campaign.

From what Superglucose has told us, it sounds like the preferrable method is to give the party treasure. Everyone who is on the front line has abysmal ACs, attack bonuses that are missing the enemy by 1 or 2 points consistantly, and the only one who is keeping the party alive is the optimizer wizard, who doesn't need much gear to function normally. Once everyone's gear aproaches more normal levels, they can expect to handle some of the challenges they are facing.

Tyndmyr
2010-01-21, 11:39 AM
A game of DnD isn´t WoW. The WBL are guidelines, not strict rules that have to be followed. A DM has the option of letting the PCs get no treasure whatsoever during an entire campaign.

Everyone keeps saying things like "The DM can do this".

Sure...he can. He just shouldn't, because it breaks the game.

Blackfang108
2010-01-21, 12:14 PM
Everyone keeps saying things like "The DM can do this".

Sure...he can. He just shouldn't, because it breaks the game.

Not to mention it really sucks being a player in one of those campaigns.

"Hey guys, we're going to run a strictly RAW 4e campaign."

5 levels later, the rogue is still using a mundane dagger and pants, the Paladin is still using a mundane Flail, and the Warlord just bought +1 [basic] magic armor and has 4 gold left.

We've spent (almost) nothing on consumables.

And we're constantly thrown up against creatures that the Warlord (best melee bonus in the group, only original character with a magic weapon) can't hit on a 12 with flanking and other extra bonuses.

Without that last bit, the low wealth would be kinda fun. But we've gotten treasure in exactly one area, out of about 20. And that was only after talking to him and pointing this out.
(we're going to try to get him to give out the inherent bonuses from DMG II, now. we haven't played much recently due to scheduling, and he's out of town for a while now.)

Sipex
2010-01-21, 12:17 PM
Yeah, we were playing core 4e for my campaign and I was dealing out treasure per the DM's manual for...3 levels? My party simply asked if they could have more treasure and I obliged.

The original DMs manual is pretty skimpy on gold handouts although you should at least be swimming in magic items as it recommends the DM give out 3-4 per level.

jiriku
2010-01-21, 12:22 PM
*coughs* optimizer. Singular. And frankly it took everything I had to keep us in it. Obscuring Mist to take out half their enemies, two choke points created by burning logs, covertly taking other people's turns for them (passing notes on what they *had* to do to survive).

The reasons combats are starting to become problematic is that I have to take a bigger and bigger role with each combat. It started with greasing under 1HD zombies so the fighters could hit a prone target, but now it's getting to me casting a spell from the perfect position targeting the perfect people every round and calling out targets and actions for everyone else.

I don't like that, the other players don't like that, but if I don't do it the other players ASK me what they should do, which implies that they feel they need it.

I can vouch for this experience. My group just wrapped up a game in which the average EL was 6-8 levels above us. We have two optimizers, and three casual players who barely understand the rules. We were resurrecting characters literally every game session. For most of the final combats, the non-optimized players would do their best to hide and not get killed while the two optimized PCs did all the heavy lifting. The other players don't have fun when I wipe the BBEG in two rounds, but when her full attack hits even the tank's AC and does double anyone's maximum hit points, it's really the only way for us to survive the encounter.

If you expect a game of Lovecraftian survival horror, this is all well and good, but if players come into the game with a different set of expectations, frustration can occur.

Blackfang108
2010-01-21, 12:27 PM
Yeah, we were playing core 4e for my campaign and I was dealing out treasure per the DM's manual for...3 levels? My party simply asked if they could have more treasure and I obliged.

The original DMs manual is pretty skimpy on gold handouts although you should at least be swimming in magic items as it recommends the DM give out 3-4 per level.

We received 1 magic item over 4 levels. I'm pretty sure that's not DMG standard.

Vizzerdrix
2010-01-21, 12:27 PM
I can vouch for this experience. My group just wrapped up a game in which the average EL was 6-8 levels above us. We have two optimizers, and three casual players who barely understand the rules. We were resurrecting characters literally every game session. For most of the final combats, the non-optimized players would do their best to hide and not get killed while the two optimized PCs. The other players don't have fun when I wipe the BBEG in two rounds, but when her full attack hits even the tank's AC and does double anyone's maximum hit points, it's really the only way for us to survive the encounter.

:mad:

I too have been there, but at the time we had no optimizers, So I had to become one.

I hope hie DM gets back to him soon. I'd like to know how this ends.

(and if the game is so good, why no campaign journal?)

martyrX
2010-01-21, 01:04 PM
To the OP: sounds like you DM is doing most things right. Sometimes when you are over matched, you need to run away!

The real 'problem' here is that you are playing in Ravenloft, a realm where there is almost NO magic. People there are afraid of it. Spellcasters are mistrusted to the extent that some villagers would think spellcasters are evil just because they are spellcasters. When you encounter a ghost in Ravenloft, it is supposed to be a difficult encounter - which it will be with no +1 weapons (run!). BTW, I personally love this setting, both as a player and as a DM.

Perhaps you can take care of this in game. Instead of telling your DM what you want, tell NPCs what you are looking for. Most NPCs won't have answers. Tell the barkeep "we were wandering in the mists and nearly died as we were attacked by a ghost! we were powerless against it!" and he will probably reply "what in BLAZES were you doing in the mists?". Tell Van Richten though, and he may suggest where you might find in item that could help you.

In Ravenloft, you just cannot afford to 'go adventuring'. You have to know what you are up against, and try to prepare accordingly. It seems like your DM has made a great roleplaying experience for you so far. Follow his lead a little, and see if roleplaying can get you the items you need/desire.

I have a PC in a Ravenloft campaign right now. We are all 13th level. We have encountered evil in Ravenloft that will never exceed (the House on Gryphon Hill, for one). So far in the campaign (which has been going on for years now) we have seen the following magic items:

1) Many items of evil, that our characters dare not touch for fear of a powers check.

2) The magic items we arrived with, which were subsequently destroyed when they were stored in a bag of holding, and the bag was torn. (this was a PC's fault and a role-playing moment i will never forget).

3) A sun sword, a ring of telekinesis, a couple pieces of magic armour, a holy quarterstaff, a rod of resurrection and some sandals of airwalk. This is all we have now.

4) Plot specific items/artifacts, such as the Apparatus.

Despite this lack of items, we have had some of the best roleplaying experiences ever.

Btw, don't try money-making schemes. Even if you had 1000's of gold pieces, where would you spend it in Ravenloft? Summoning horses and such also won't work, as summoning is unpredictable in Ravenloft. Also, ripping people off might bring horrible curses (powers checks) upon you.

Sinfire Titan
2010-01-21, 01:10 PM
To the OP: sounds like you DM is doing most things right. Sometimes when you are over matched, you need to run away!

The real 'problem' here is that you are playing in Ravenloft, a realm where there is almost NO magic. People there are afraid of it. Spellcasters are mistrusted to the extent that some villagers would think spellcasters are evil just because they are spellcasters. When you encounter a ghost in Ravenloft, it is supposed to be a difficult encounter - which it will be with no +1 weapons (run!). BTW, I personally love this setting, both as a player and as a DM.

That may have been the case in older editions, but in 3.5 it's nearly impossible to play a character who doesn't use magic items by level 3 or 5. They're integral to the system, and the DM is ignoring them outright and not adjusting his encounters to account for the lack of money (seriously, they've been fighting Kobolds that have better equipment than they do and haven't been able to salvage any of it).

The best you can do in this case is introduce Incarnum to the other players and see if the DM will let it fly. Your weaker members won't be as useless, and the DM can keep most of his low-magic idea without it killing everyone.

Sipex
2010-01-21, 01:31 PM
We received 1 magic item over 4 levels. I'm pretty sure that's not DMG standard.

Is this your DMs first game? 4e has ALL characters heavily dependant on magic items by default. Maybe you should let him know this.

Megaduck
2010-01-21, 02:16 PM
It sounds to me that the amount of treasure isn't the problem.

What it looks like to me is that the OP, the DM, and the other players all have different ideas on how they want to play.

From my perspective it looks like the DM is carefully balancing the encounters to fit the party, which is his job. As the DM is playing Ravenloft he's balancing them all to be really really hard so they the players just squeak through.

If the OP doesn't like this he doesn't need to ask for more treasure. The DM is just going to up the power of the opponents even more. What the OP needs to do is ask for easier encounters and get the rest of the group to agree.

That being said, it bothers me when one player is basically telling other players what to do. That causes more issues then tough encounters.


I would advise the OP sit down with both the party and the DM and say that he thinks the encounters are to difficult and not being fun. He should be prepared, however, for the other players to accuse him of trying to steal the spotlight and the DM to say that the encounters are difficult because he keeps taking control.

Tyndmyr
2010-01-21, 02:35 PM
From my perspective it looks like the DM is carefully balancing the encounters to fit the party, which is his job. As the DM is playing Ravenloft he's balancing them all to be really really hard so they the players just squeak through.

Surely you must be kidding. He's pitting them against over CRed encounters that consist of mobs of crit machines, capable of likely one-hit killing the squishy, unoptimized characters. The rogue, for example. It already sucks to be a rogue in Ravenloft...having no magic items just adds to that.

They are only alive because the optimized wizard is running the fights, and barely. This means that they are all heavily dependant on him, and upon luck. If he ever gets incapped, which requires only a bit of bad luck, the entire party will wipe.

With the type of encounters they face, character deaths en masse are inevitible. This is not "careful balancing".

Crow
2010-01-21, 02:52 PM
*coughs* optimizer. Singular. And frankly it took everything I had to keep us in it. Obscuring Mist to take out half their enemies, two choke points created by burning logs, covertly taking other people's turns for them (passing notes on what they *had* to do to survive).

Emphasis mine.

If anything is causing tension and bad blood between the players over the combats, it is this. Maybe you should stop playing people's characters for them, and let them make their own decisions in combat.

Frankly, 2700gp of wealth doesn't get you a whole lot anyways. The more of this thread I read, the more convinced I am that the OP is the problem.

Sstoopidtallkid
2010-01-21, 02:56 PM
If anything is causing tension and bad blood between the players over the combats, it is this. Maybe you should stop playing people's characters for them, and let them make their own decisions in combat.
I don't like that, the other players don't like that, but if I don't do it the other players ASK me what they should do, which implies that they feel they need it.Emphasis mine.

Tyndmyr
2010-01-21, 02:57 PM
The part after that said that when he didn't do that, the other players begged him to do so.

Yes...it's a bad solution to the problem, and one that won't fix it over the long term, but it's not the problem itself.

Blackfang108
2010-01-21, 02:58 PM
Is this your DMs first game? 4e has ALL characters heavily dependant on magic items by default. Maybe you should let him know this.

His first 4e game(been running off and on since release, hence only level 6). He's been a DM since 2ed and favors low-wealth games. He didn't say that this would be a low-wealth game, however. and maintains that it isn't. (comparitively true)

Tinydwarfman
2010-01-21, 03:02 PM
Good luck with that. I've had a few dm's whose idea of running the game was to control pc wealth. One dm wouldn't let us sell npc weapons/armor at all saying it was all useless, but then not give us other items in compensation. I've actually heard another dm nix a item generated randomly while muttering that that item is genuinely useful. On another topic I've had a dm who said flat out that he assigns 125% of full hp for all our fight encounters.

Well I ended up leaving both of those groups and told the one dm that he controlled me right out of his campaign. But then again he had a bunch of house rules that he just dropped on us during play (no forewarning or discussion) in a way to nix my class abilities.

Well personally I don't see the problem with 125% of hp, when our group first started using ToB, we doubled opponents hp so they would survive a single attack :smallbiggrin:

IonDragon
2010-01-21, 03:18 PM
A game of DnD isn´t WoW. The WBL are guidelines, not strict rules that have to be followed.

WoW doesn't have WBL. I fail to see your point.

lsfreak
2010-01-21, 03:20 PM
Well personally I don't see the problem with 125% of hp, when our group first started using ToB, we doubled opponents hp so they would survive a single attack :smallbiggrin:

Just FYI, that's not just ToB, that's any reasonably-optimized melee. It just takes a lot more effort and knowledge to reasonably optimize a fighter versus a warblade. I.e. a warblade has a 'power range' of say 6-8, while fighters are more like 1-9 (so an unoptimized fighter is 1 or 2, while an unoptimized warblade is still a 6).

What people are failing to take into account is that CR is built around assuming standard WBL. You simply CAN'T go up against really tough encounters without magic items of some kind. Now, hordes of lower-level monsters is a bit different, but can still be problematic.

To the OP, I would suggest every time you go up against more monsters than you have players, you retreat. From an IC perspective, 2:1 odds is something you avoid at all costs, especially since you realize you're barely scraping by as it is. It's purely metagame that you're still fighting them; get rid of that metagame. Now, if you're good at tactics and have a reasonable, in-character reason to continue fighting (I can take out half of them with web, which lowers it to 1:1!), then go for it. But until you have a damn good reason to continue fighting against those odds (whether it be tactical advantage, or magical items), you should be avoiding those situations.

Tinydwarfman
2010-01-21, 03:33 PM
Just FYI, that's not just ToB, that's any reasonably-optimized melee. It just takes a lot more effort and knowledge to reasonably optimize a fighter versus a warblade. I.e. a warblade has a 'power range' of say 6-8, while fighters are more like 1-9 (so an unoptimized fighter is 1 or 2, while an unoptimized warblade is still a 6).

What people are failing to take into account is that CR is built around assuming standard WBL. You simply CAN'T go up against really tough encounters without magic items of some kind. Now, hordes of lower-level monsters is a bit different, but can still be problematic.


I do realize that, but our group does not tend to optimize and one of our fighters (young player) doesn't know the rules very well. Then he played a warblade, and DESTROYED. I was playing an unarmed swordsage as strong as I could make it with out cheese and was still behind him, he just make some really lucky choices. Our GM just wasn't prepared, and it was quite shocking. We were also level one, and quite fragile, so it was the best solution until we had a little more defense. I wasn't actually commenting on WBL at the time, but I do agree that the DM does need to do something to stop the players from dying horribly. If there was a way to do it w/o magic items, I would jump on it immediately, as I hate being so reliant on my gear. (part of the reason monks are my favorite class, not matter how much they suck)

Megaduck
2010-01-21, 03:35 PM
Surely you must be kidding.

No, I'm quite serious.


They are only alive because the optimized wizard is running the fights, and barely. This means that they are all heavily dependant on him, and upon luck. If he ever gets incapped, which requires only a bit of bad luck, the entire party will wipe.

Important part bolded. They're still alive. Full stop. More even, they're winning. Sounds like the Party verse Team Monster is in perfect balance.

I can fully imagine a DM responding to this treasure request with "You're fighting CR9 with a level three party and winning and now you want MORE power?"

Now, if this is all because a single charecters is godlike and the rest of the characters are worthless then you have an interparty problem not a treasure problem.

Chrono22
2010-01-21, 03:37 PM
Many GMs, even after looking at WBL, enact "real-world" scarcity of gold and valuables.
Try suggesting to the DM that he should reduce the market costs of items to 1/10th or 1/100th normal. If he does this, adventure rewards seem less ridiculous (no mountains of silver), and it's also simpler to track in game.

Sinfire Titan
2010-01-21, 03:39 PM
No, I'm quite serious.



Important part bolded. They're still alive. Full stop. More even, they're winning. Sounds like the Party verse Team Monster is in perfect balance.

I can fully imagine a DM responding to this treasure request with "You're fighting CR9 with a level three party and winning and now you want MORE power?"

Now, if this is all because a single charecters is godlike and the rest of the characters are worthless then you have an interparty problem not a treasure problem.

The problem is the Wizard is the only one who knows what to do in these situations, and the others are asking him for help. His best solutions are barely scrapping by, and he has realized that better equipment would allow him to relax his orders and let them make some of the decisions instead of running the entire show.

lsfreak
2010-01-21, 03:39 PM
I wasn't actually commenting on WBL at the time, but I do agree that the DM does need to do something to stop the players from dying horribly.

Sorry, that was supposed to be a transition into another thought, not a response to something you said.

@Megaduck:
The only reason they're alive is a combination of luck, and the OP telling everyone else what to do. Surviving off luck and someone else telling you what you have to do to live is NOT fun. You can have all the great RP in the world, but when you're essentially powerless in every combat you get into, something's wrong.

Megaduck
2010-01-21, 03:48 PM
The problem is the Wizard is the only one who knows what to do in these situations, and the others are asking him for help. His best solutions are barely scrapping by, and he has realized that better equipment would allow him to relax his orders and let them make some of the decisions instead of running the entire show.

Yes, but if the DM is optimizing the encounters so that the party just barely squeaks through then simply giving more equipment isn't going to fix the problem. The DM is simply going to rebalanced the encounters and you'll have a level 3 party scrapping by through CR12 encounters.

The problem here isn't a treasure one. The problem here is that the encounters are too difficult. The solution is to gather the group and ask the DM to tone the encounters down a bit so they're more fun.

If the OP doesn't want to do this he could instead stop giving tactical advice to his party and have the group withdraw then they get in trouble. The DM will probably start toning the encounters down on his own then.

Jayabalard
2010-01-21, 03:50 PM
Everyone keeps saying things like "The DM can do this".

Sure...he can. He just shouldn't should be careful doing it, because it breaks can break the game.Fixed.

There's nothing inherently bad with running a game that is vastly below WBL; it can be done badly, so it's something you have to be careful of, but there's nothing wrong with it, in and of itself.


in 3.5 it's nearly impossible to play a character who doesn't use magic items by level 3 or 5. I did not find that to be the case, either from the DM side or the player side. The game can be quite playable with no magic items.


Now, if this is all because a single charecters is godlike and the rest of the characters are worthless then you have an interparty problem not a treasure problem.Indeed; it sounds an awful lot like the DM is throwing the difficult encounters at the party because they're still winning. If you're only getting those extremely difficult encounters because you have one character that is vastly more powerful than all the rest and are able to keep winning, well, it sounds like that character is more of a problem than anything else that has been mentioned. You might have a lot more luck convincing your GM to lower the challenge of the encounters if you scrap that character (or vastly drop it's power in some way) so that the GM can challenge the party with weaker encounters.


The problem here isn't a treasure one. The problem here is that the encounters are too difficult. The solution is to gather the group and ask the DM to tone the encounters down a bit so they're more fun.As I said above, that's only part of the problem; having one character who is vastly more optimized and more powerful is probably something that's going to need to be dealt with before the GM is going to cut the challenges back.

Sinfire Titan
2010-01-21, 03:56 PM
I did not find that to be the case, either from the DM side or the player side. The game can be quite playable with no magic items.

Then you are doing something different than what the DMG and other books are telling you. Try running some gearless NPCs through Expedition to Demonweb Pits without altering a single thing. Unless every last one of them is decently optimized for gearless combat, odds are heavy that those sample characters will get thrashed. And this is giving WotC's writers the benefit of the doubt, as we all know most of them have a very poor grasp on optimization.

Then try it with WLD or Castle Greyhawk.

Then run some Martial Adepts with 1/2 WBL through the same three. There's a massive difference in how it plays out. No gear versus half gear changes so much about the play style of the game.

lsfreak
2010-01-21, 03:58 PM
If you're only getting those extremely difficult encounters because you have one character that is vastly more powerful than all the rest and are able to keep winning, well, it sounds like that character is more of a problem than anything else that has been mentioned.

It's not the character, it's that the player (the OP) is the only one that knows how to handle encounters that are this difficult, and so everyone is basically having the OP play their character once combat starts.

Since the DM seems unwilling to give you much more treasure, approach them about this problem instead: that the encounters are too difficult for the others to figure out. That he should either tone down the difficulty of the encounters, or that you as players will be forced to retreat more and more often.

Crow
2010-01-21, 04:10 PM
Then you are doing something different than what the DMG and other books are telling you.

Haha, you say that like it's a crime...

Jayabalard
2010-01-21, 04:11 PM
It's not the character, it's that the player (the OP) is the only one that knows how to handle encounters that are this difficult, and so everyone is basically having the OP play their character once combat starts.I'm pretty sure he also said something about being an optimized wizard, so it's also an issue with the character.

If it's just the player issue, well, the solution is simple: stop telling everyone how to win the encounters and run away a bunch until the GM finds a more appropriate challenge level.


Haha, you say that like it's a crime...That's really the part that jumps out at me too; the GM is obviously not someone who has a problem with that, so the options are really to deal with it, switch GM's or stop playing.

Saph
2010-01-21, 04:16 PM
Scaling up is not going to work. Apart from the obvious OOC "talk to the DM" advice, I've got a possible solution. If nothing else, it'll at least diagnose the problem one way or another.

Have your character leave for a session. Either IC (do something else for the length of the session) or OOC (do something else that day).

One of two things will happen.

• The party gets TPKed: The problem's with the GM, and this should make it really obvious. If people complain that you're not there, point out that the entire game shouldn't revolve around one character.

• Things work out OK: The problem's with you. Make a character who's more in line with the rest of the party.

Tyndmyr
2010-01-21, 04:18 PM
Fixed.

There's nothing inherently bad with running a game that is vastly below WBL; it can be done badly, so it's something you have to be careful of, but there's nothing wrong with it, in and of itself.

I did not find that to be the case, either from the DM side or the player side. The game can be quite playable with no magic items.

It's not just the lack of magic items. It's the lack of gold and mundane items.

When nobody can afford better than scale armor, you have a problem. When the best AC a melee guy can squeak out is 14, you have a problem.

I am not disputing that you can have low wealth games of D&D, even in 3.5, but in this particular case, the game is clearly way off base from what 3.5 is balanced for, and it IS a problem. If it wasn't a problem, the OP wouldn't have come here asking for advice, and wouldn't have his fellow players also upset at this.

AtwasAwamps
2010-01-21, 04:26 PM
If it's just the player issue, well, the solution is simple: stop telling everyone how to win the encounters and run away a bunch until the GM finds a more appropriate challenge level.


Yes, I'm sure that telling people "no" when they ask him for help is going to be the solution to this game's problems.

Sinfire Titan
2010-01-21, 04:30 PM
Haha, you say that like it's a crime...

Is the DM's deviance from the books causing inter-party problems? If yes, then he really needs to pay more attention to the books.

Tyndmyr
2010-01-21, 04:31 PM
Yes, I'm sure that telling people "no" when they ask him for help is going to be the solution to this game's problems.

This will only accelerate the point at which the party wipes. Which may or may not settle the issue, simply because it will likely force things to a head.

Megaduck
2010-01-21, 04:58 PM
This will only accelerate the point at which the party wipes. Which may or may not settle the issue, simply because it will likely force things to a head.

I doubt the party will wipe. If the party starts doing badly the DM will probably just rebalance the encounter.

Tyndmyr
2010-01-21, 04:59 PM
I doubt the party will wipe. If the party starts doing badly the DM will probably just rebalance the encounter.

Really? I think he's trying to cause deaths. Because for some DMs, they judge difficulty almost entirely off the body count.

Which is annoying, because then it becomes a competition by the players in paranoia and optimization.

Jayabalard
2010-01-21, 05:01 PM
Yes, I'm sure that telling people "no" when they ask him for help is going to be the solution to this game's problems.I don't understand... they're upset because he's telling them how to run their characters. He should stop doing that. He can stop doing that without just saying "no" when people ask him for help.


Is the DM's deviance from the books causing inter-party problems? No. Having a player that is fixated on the WBL numbers who is playing a more powerful class and is optimizing at a far higher level than the rest of the group is causing the inter-party problems.


It's not just the lack of magic items. It's the lack of gold and mundane items.

When nobody can afford better than scale armor, you have a problem. When the best AC a melee guy can squeak out is 14, you have a problem.I don't see what this has to do with the statement that i was responding to, which was specifically "in 3.5 it's nearly impossible to play a character who doesn't use magic items by level 3 or 5."


the game is clearly way off base from what 3.5 is balanced for, and it IS a problem.3.5 is not balanced for anything in and of itself; individual games of 3.5 are balanced or not by the GM of that game, according to what precise rewards, powers, challenges, etc are given, present and applied. In my experience, the guidelines in the book are no match for what a competent GM can do, and don't do anything if you have an incompetent GM.


Really? I think he's trying to cause deaths. Because for some DMs, they judge difficulty almost entirely off the body count. If that's the case then wiping the party would be very productive; they'd be able to identify that GM as one of the ones that do that based on how they handle the wipe and then stop playing with him if that is the case. Problem solved, and it will probably only take one session.

Megaduck
2010-01-21, 05:04 PM
Really? I think he's trying to cause deaths. Because for some DMs, they judge difficulty almost entirely off the body count.

Which is annoying, because then it becomes a competition by the players in paranoia and optimization.

If this game had a high body count I'd agree with you but we haven't heard of anyone dying yet.

And really, if the DM is trying to create a body count it doesn't matter if you're optimized or not, the DM will kill you regardless.

lsfreak
2010-01-21, 05:09 PM
I don't understand... they're upset because he's telling them how to run their characters. He should stop doing that. He can stop doing that without just saying "no" when people ask him for help.


That's not how I read it at all. They're upset because in order to survive they have to ask the OP for help. The other players aren't having fun because their options are "effectively have someone else play the character," or "die." Neither of those options are fun, but it seems they prefer the former to the latter.

I suppose I could agree that wiping the party could potentially be productive because then they can move on to another DM. Or at least maybe that would show the DM what was wrong.

Superglucose
2010-01-21, 05:22 PM
To the OP: sounds like you DM is doing most things right. Sometimes when you are over matched, you need to run away!


Agreed. But sometimes it's not possible to run away, and that's when everyone sort of turns to me and goes, "[Superglucose], what should I do and where should I move?" I try to keep it in simple terms when I can ("Hit the casters first!" "Don't worry about the ones on the right side I can slow them down" "Wait until I case my AoE then move in") but in the end, I know it's not that my character is "too powerful."

Why?

Because during the first adventure I did (mostly) nothing except slow the combat down (by which I mean, I lengthened the number of rounds the combat was) and half the party was secretly laughing at my character for being useless. Then we got into a difficult fight and I figured it would be ok to cut loose a bit. This was about CR 4-5, something the party could have handled but had significant risk of player death, so I figured "why not, I'll finally cast the one, singular color spray I have prepared today."

Which was like a drug.

I'm already strongly considering retiring this character and replacing it with a Ranger instead. Specifically, a "I rely only on myself" ranger who doesn't give a rat's ass what happens to the rest of the party so long as he (and his animal companion) survive. I just have to wait out this level so I can start at level 4 because I want the ranger to be corrupted AND have an animal companion that isn't a dread companion (because I like the dichtomy there, the animal is the "civilized" one)

EDIT:
Last campaign I left, only to return at the behest of one of the players who I really enjoy playing with. The same session I left, they all got TPKed, and the session after they started the Ravenloft campaign and spent two game sessions losing to a wolf. A single wolf.

I've talked about leaving again to ask if that's what they wanted, and all of the people I spoke with it about said basically "Please, it's really boring without you because we just end up hiding from everything." I think a large part of the increasing CR is that the GM is frustrated that his group (which used to flee in the face of a single CR1 wolf or 1HD zombie) is now standing and fighting against high CRs. Of course the *REASON* we were standing and fighting is that he kept implying that running would make us run into something hideous in the wilderness. So it was,try to rest in a defensible location or flee. We picked rest, which is where the CR9 almost-wipe occurred.

Jayabalard
2010-01-21, 05:27 PM
That's not how I read it at all. They're upset because in order to survive they have to ask the OP for help. The other players aren't having fun because their options are "effectively have someone else play the character," or "die." Neither of those options are fun, but it seems they prefer the former to the latter.I dunno, the die option can often be quite fun.

Nor do I really see that those are the only 2 options; there's quote possible also "run away" and "surrender and run a series of adventures escaping slavery", "part of the party dies" , as well as other options. Taking those might lead to the encounters getting toned down quite a bit.


If this game had a high body count I'd agree with you but we haven't heard of anyone dying yet.That is kind of a good point; if this was a high body count DM I'd expect to have already seen multiple character deaths by level 3.

Marker Mage
2010-01-21, 05:41 PM
How often has your character had to commit an evil act simply to survive?

jiriku
2010-01-21, 05:45 PM
So, Superglucose, what do you plan to do next? I'll admit I'm really curious about the course you're planning. Your situation with the overly difficult encounters is eerily similar to the campaign I just finished.

Kelb_Panthera
2010-01-21, 06:20 PM
If you're not going to have a group discussion about the problem, which I still say is the best solution by far, and insist on doing something subtle to try and make the DM see the problem for himself, get your wizard killed. Make a fatal "mistake." Then replace him with your ranger idea. When tpk's start occuring left and right because there's no god wizard saving everyone's collective bacon, he *might* get the picture...... He also might just cut loose with the maniacal villian laugh. In either case you get *a* solution. That said, I'm going to repeat, "a simple group discussion about the problem is almost certainly the best solution."

Samm
2010-01-21, 06:52 PM
I dunno, the die option can often be quite fun.

Nor do I really see that those are the only 2 options; there's quote possible also "run away" and "surrender and run a series of adventures escaping slavery", "part of the party dies" , as well as other options. Taking those might lead to the encounters getting toned down quite a bit.

That is kind of a good point; if this was a high body count DM I'd expect to have already seen multiple character deaths by level 3.

It really doesn't matter what you percieve as fun in this case, because what matters here is what the OP's party percieves as fun. And they don't want to die. I'm unsure why, but the point is that from the way they're asking for help, it can be inferred they would rather survive (possibly for the great RPing and other stuff) and have poor combat, than get hammered and still have poor combat.

The other options seem rather poor as well. The run away option well, from what the OP has said, running away seems like a more dangerous option. The surrender, I'm not sure that may be possible half the time or that the characters would even ponder that, so that's out of the picture. And finally, part of the party dying, well that'd look pretty bad IC and RP wise. Eg. A god like wizard who's the party's guardian angel one moment, just letting go and watching the party (or part of the party) die the next. That seems rather odd, don't you think?

I think we all should agree on this, there is a problem. I simply can't see how you can say, "it's fine" when the group absolutely hates combat with or without the wizard.

The solutions; talk to the DM about it or as a group, ask him to give the fighters and rogues a bit more treasure and keep the encounters the same or make the encouters easier and keep the treasure the same or a mixture of both. For IC and RP reasons I'd prefer the former, because why would the encounters suddenly weaken, when they've been extremely strong in the past? I'd think that it'd be more likely that some of the strong encounters may have loot that would contain a few magic items or something comparable that'd give the party a chance.

Kabump
2010-01-21, 07:48 PM
Gotta love that we keep seeing the "Well I don't see anything wrong with this situation, so YOU must be playing wrong" card being used here. Contributes NOTHING to this thread, kind of like this post. If you don't think there is a problem, fine, but the OP certainly does and is asking for help. Coming in here and telling they are doing it wrong helps no one.

Superglucose
2010-01-21, 08:21 PM
So, Superglucose, what do you plan to do next? I'll admit I'm really curious about the course you're planning. Your situation with the overly difficult encounters is eerily similar to the campaign I just finished.
I plan to sell horses summoned by Mount since the GM has ruled that these horses do not go aware: ever. Operation "Convert Ravenloft to Tippyverse" is underway.

Seriously though I have to get my party members into decent armor. It's ok if we can't find enchanters, I'll take the feats and sac the exp myself if that's what it takes, but Scale is NOT cutting it.

Level 5: Craft Arms and Armor, level 8: Craft Wondrous Item (I want my headband of Int, tyvm)

martyrX
2010-01-21, 08:44 PM
I plan to sell horses summoned by Mount since the GM has ruled that these horses do not go aware: ever. Operation "Convert Ravenloft to Tippyverse" is underway.

Level 5: Craft Arms and Armor, level 8: Craft Wondrous Item (I want my headband of Int, tyvm)

Mount may end up causing you problems. Not sure if I should give away why, so I won't. Let's just say that Ravenloft makes your spell work a little differently :). Great idea with the feats. That is exactly what you need.

Once again, IMO Ravenloft is the problem. If you and your fellow players don't want to play a Ravenloft type game, then don't. Ravenloft is about hopelessness, isolation, corruption and possible survival. Just when you have finally defeated that vampire, that is when the storm hits and you are beset with werewolves, and you are all out of silver bullets. There are very few good things that happen in the dread realm. And I don't care about 3.5, 3.0, 2.0...whatever. The themes of Ravenloft trump all of that.

An example from my campaign: In Ravenloft there are special rules for Madness checks which may make your character non-magically INSANE. A heal spell can help, but there are probably no priests of sufficient level who can cast such a spell. Instead, you have to go to an asylum to see a 'doctor' and get cured through hypnosis, which can take weeks. Oh the encounters that can take place in an insane asylum...just perfect for all sorts of fun! This actually happened to a bard PC in the campaign. We were all a part of the hypnotism, which actually sparked a huge adventure INSIDE THE BARD'S BRAIN. As he was 'breaking down', the dream-world (hypnotism) around us eroded. It was actually some of the best role-playing I've ever been a part of.

Now, if you can just walk to your local priest and pay for a heal, the whole asylum thing doesn't work. Same thing with scarce magic weapons (makes ghosts scarier) and silver bullets (I only have 6!). It forces the players to think of creative ways to destroy the undefeatable. We once killed 3 vampires by diverting a flood into the place they were sleeping (running water!). That was a HUGE victory.

To the OP: I am not saying your DM is doing a perfect job. Obviously, something is not right. What I AM saying is, Ravenloft sets PCs up for all sorts of dismay. Really, no magic items is not your PC's main concern. Your main concern is probably, "how do we get out of this hell on earth?!" (You won't like the answer to that one.)

Take my advice and try to fix it in game. Getting out the rules book and saying "see? this is where it says i should have a sword +1!" probably won't win any arguments. Saying in character, "Our weapons are useless against these creatures. We must find someone who can tell us how they can be defeated! I refuse to think they have no weaknesses!" would almost definitely help. Look for the help you seek IN GAME.

Vizzerdrix
2010-01-21, 10:23 PM
Emphasis mine.

If anything is causing tension and bad blood between the players over the combats, it is this. Maybe you should stop playing people's characters for them, and let them make their own decisions in combat.

Frankly, 2700gp of wealth doesn't get you a whole lot anyways. The more of this thread I read, the more convinced I am that the OP is the problem.

Yeah? are we reading the same thread, cause you missed the part where he said the other players are asking him for help. Honestly the CR needs to come down to fix this, or they need a good haul,.

Superglucose
2010-01-22, 01:49 AM
Mount may end up causing you problems. Not sure if I should give away why, so I won't. Let's just say that Ravenloft makes your spell work a little differently :).My GM thinks it does but it actually doesn't.

"Summoned creatures return from whence they
came at the end of the spell's duration, as
described in the Player's Handbook"

That's the important part. But he's playing that it stays forever, so I'm using his interpretation of the rules to my advantage.


Once again, IMO Ravenloft is the problem. If you and your fellow players don't want to play a Ravenloft type game, then don't. Ravenloft is about hopelessness, isolation, corruption and possible survival. Just when you have finally defeated that vampire, that is when the storm hits and you are beset with werewolves, and you are all out of silver bullets. There are very few good things that happen in the dread realm. And I don't care about 3.5, 3.0, 2.0...whatever. The themes of Ravenloft trump all of that.
Ravenloft is fine. Survival horror is fine. Having every single battle be way beyond what we can handle with the only options being "Fight" or "Die" is not fine. I wouldn't mind if we had to run from some of these encounters, but we don't have the OPTION of running from most of them.



Take my advice and try to fix it in game. Getting out the rules book and saying "see? this is where it says i should have a sword +1!" probably won't win any arguments. Saying in character, "Our weapons are useless against these creatures. We must find someone who can tell us how they can be defeated! I refuse to think they have no weaknesses!" would almost definitely help. Look for the help you seek IN GAME.
Tried. We're working on a quest to get our cleric into Full Plate (finally). Had to cancel it because the CR9 encounter invoked the retreat clause in my "UH OH this quest is seriously messed up" part of the brain.

Samm
2010-01-22, 04:49 AM
Tried. We're working on a quest to get our cleric into Full Plate (finally). Had to cancel it because the CR9 encounter invoked the retreat clause in my "UH OH this quest is seriously messed up" part of the brain.

For some reason, I think the GM is out to screw you... He doesn't seem to want you to have a chance, maybe you should all die, and then hold a conversation with him that goes something along the lines of: "The GM isn't meant to kill his party" I don't know, maybe just a suggestion. However, this probably wont work if he's GMed before.

2xMachina
2010-01-22, 08:59 AM
If you want to force the point, you could just keep TPKing. Oh, we died. Submit the same character sheet. Let's try that quest again. Oops, we died again. Yay, same character sheet with different name. Let's try again. Wow, died faster in a funny way. Ok, same character with different name again. We try again. Did we just die again? Sure, we try again.

Tyndmyr
2010-01-22, 09:13 AM
Make sure to claim cover bonuses from hiding behind corpses of your previous characters.

Jayabalard
2010-01-22, 09:20 AM
I think we all should agree on this, there is a problem. I simply can't see how you can say, "it's fine" when the group absolutely hates combat with or without the wizard.I'm not entirely sure how you translated my post into "it's fine" ... it's a couple of remarks pointing out that a character dieing isn't always non-fun, and then another remark pointing out how lsfreak was presenting a false dichotomy. Neither of those say that the OP's situation is fine.

In fact, I'm pretty sure that in most posts I've made in this thread I've focused on what I think the real problems the OP, rather than just saying "it's fine" ... it's just that what I see as the problem is not the same thing that the OP sees as the problem.


For IC and RP reasons I'd prefer the former, because why would the encounters suddenly weaken, when they've been extremely strong in the past? That doesn't make any sense... it's not an IC/RP reason, it's a pure videogame logic reason. Why would the encounters weaken? Because in a realistic world, the difficulty of one encounter does not necessarily say anything about the difficulty of the next encounter. Sure, in a games it's often the case that the difficulty of encounters progress, but that has nothing to do with anything IC, or RP; it's purely a function of playing a game.


Yeah? are we reading the same thread, cause you missed the part where he said the other players are asking him for help.That's no excuse for playing other people's characters for them; he should offer help, yes, but he's doing too much of the decision making for other players.


Gotta love that we keep seeing the "Well I don't see anything wrong with this situation, so YOU must be playing wrong" card being used here. I'm not sure who's saying that; I think pretty much everyone has pointed out a problem, even if it's not the one that the OP initially came in with.


For some reason, I think the GM is out to screw you...There's a certain amount of this that is certainly true; the GM represents the game world, and the world of Ravenloft is indeed out to screw the players.

But I'm really skeptical that this GM is going any further than that... otherwise I'd expect to see a huge pile of bodies from characters killed long before they reached level 3... and from the OP's comments, noone has died yet.

martyrX
2010-01-22, 11:27 AM
My GM thinks it does but it actually doesn't.

"Summoned creatures return from whence they
came at the end of the spell's duration, as
described in the Player's Handbook"

That's the important part. But he's playing that it stays forever, so I'm using his interpretation of the rules to my advantage.


No, the important part is that you are taking a horse from somewhere else in the domain. Probably someone else's horse. What are people going to do when they figure you have been stealing horses and selling them to others? I smell a powers check.



Ravenloft is fine. Survival horror is fine. Having every single battle be way beyond what we can handle with the only options being "Fight" or "Die" is not fine. I wouldn't mind if we had to run from some of these encounters, but we don't have the OPTION of running from most of them.


I admit, being overmatched by kobolds is far from 'horrific'. It's more silly than anything. But from your descriptions, the battles are not beyond what you can handle. You have all survived. If your DM is looking to TPK, he can do that at any time.



Tried. We're working on a quest to get our cleric into Full Plate (finally). Had to cancel it because the CR9 encounter invoked the retreat clause in my "UH OH this quest is seriously messed up" part of the brain.

What can I say? Ravenloft is unkind. The powers that be want to corrupt you and keep you forever. Any time you go on a quest, the dark powers will probably allow you to succeed, but at a price. You get the plate mail, but you all had to roll madness checks after what you witnessed in the battle, and now things are WORSE. That's the dark powers, rearing their ugly heads.

Just out of curiosity, why do you know the CR of your encounters? If I were your DM, I would never reveal the CR. Instead, I would just describe to you what you were encountering and go from there. Is it possible that you are assuming a higher CR level than he has actually set against you? For instance, you kobold encounter might be a high CR because of the creatures involved, but if the DM doesn't use them to their fullest extent, the CR is actually lower. Do you know WHY you were attacked by kobolds? Was it random? Did Strahd send them after you, with orders NOT to kill (I'd say that lowers the CR!)? There really are so many possibilities here...

I definitely recommend against all of the shenanigans that people are suggesting here. Let your party die, whine about not having enough magic or money, etc.



For some reason, I think the GM is out to screw you...
-------
There's a certain amount of this that is certainly true; the GM represents the game world, and the world of Ravenloft is indeed out to screw the players.

But I'm really skeptical that this GM is going any further than that... otherwise I'd expect to see a huge pile of bodies from characters killed long before they reached level 3... and from the OP's comments, noone has died yet.

I agree with this.

Tyndmyr
2010-01-22, 11:50 AM
Just out of curiosity, why do you know the CR of your encounters? If I were your DM, I would never reveal the CR. Instead, I would just describe to you what you were encountering and go from there. Is it possible that you are assuming a higher CR level than he has actually set against you? For instance, you kobold encounter might be a high CR because of the creatures involved, but if the DM doesn't use them to their fullest extent, the CR is actually lower. Do you know WHY you were attacked by kobolds? Was it random? Did Strahd send them after you, with orders NOT to kill (I'd say that lowers the CR!)? There really are so many possibilities here...

Minimum CR calculation is easily available to players if they know what they are facing. Since this is the case, it can be inferred that a minimal CR will be known to the players. CR can be higher than calculated, due to unknown templates, class levels, etc that are not obvious to the players, but generally not lower.

Unless they are using non-lethal damage(which there is no indication of), there is no CR adjustment there. The plotline behind why an encounter happens does not adjust the CR of the fight by RAW. However, favorable circumstances can apply an adjustment as usual. Thus, when the party is ambushed, the CR of the encounter is generally raised.

I see nothing from what he's said so far to cast doubt on his assessment of CRs.

martyrX
2010-01-22, 12:35 PM
Minimum CR calculation is easily available to players if they know what they are facing. Since this is the case, it can be inferred that a minimal CR will be known to the players. CR can be higher than calculated, due to unknown templates, class levels, etc that are not obvious to the players, but generally not lower.

Unless they are using non-lethal damage(which there is no indication of), there is no CR adjustment there. The plotline behind why an encounter happens does not adjust the CR of the fight by RAW. However, favorable circumstances can apply an adjustment as usual. Thus, when the party is ambushed, the CR of the encounter is generally raised.

I see nothing from what he's said so far to cast doubt on his assessment of CRs.

Blah blah RAW blah blah. The simple fact is, by RAW, a level 3 party should probably be totally destroyed by a CR 9 encounter (A 6th level kobold fighter should give them huge troubles all by himself!). They weren't killed. Strangely enough, they ALL survived. How could they all survive what the big bad rule books tell us should be waaay too overpowered? The answer must be that the DM let them live, or the kobolds were extra stupid (either of which 'adjusts' the CR :rollseyes: ).

Tyndmyr
2010-01-22, 12:36 PM
Blah blah RAW blah blah. The simple fact is, by RAW, a level 3 party should probably be totally destroyed by a CR 9 encounter (A 6th level kobold fighter should give them huge troubles all by himself!). They weren't killed. Strangely enough, they ALL survived. How could they all survive what the big bad rule books tell us should be waaay too overpowered? The answer must be that the DM let them live, or the kobolds were extra stupid (either of which 'adjusts' the CR :rollseyes: ).

We've already gone over this, I'd suggest you read the remainder of the thread.

2xMachina
2010-01-22, 01:07 PM
Just goes to show that wizards are surprisingly good at shutting down enemies. (same way a lvl 13 wizard beat a lvl 20 fighter.)

Whoo! Color Spray. Now a bunch of them are out for a while.

Superglucose
2010-01-22, 01:19 PM
Minimum CR calculation is easily available to players if they know what they are facing. Since this is the case, it can be inferred that a minimal CR will be known to the players. CR can be higher than calculated, due to unknown templates, class levels, etc that are not obvious to the players, but generally not lower.
Several of the kobolds are, by his admission, book kobolds with a slight beef to their AC as they wear scale armor. CR 1/4

Several are described as "elite" kobolds, who use an array of DC14 poison-tipped crossbow bolts and carry no melee weapons. Based on the description, I figured they were 1 level, PC class.

There was a fighter who took an iterative. At least 6th level.

There were three arcane casters using "magic missile" with two missiles each. 3rd level. One of them was described as "More powerful than your wizard" (me) which implies that he's 4th level.

A monk, who I honestly had no clue but plopped him at level2. Considering he was intended to be a personal 1v1 challenge to a character that would have been level 3, it's possible he could be as high as level 4.

The CR range for this encounter is 8-9, by my calculations (I could be wrong).

Blah blah RAW blah blah. The simple fact is, by RAW, a level 3 party should probably be totally destroyed by a CR 9 encounter (A 6th level kobold fighter should give them huge troubles all by himself!). They weren't killed. Strangely enough, they ALL survived. How could they all survive what the big bad rule books tell us should be waaay too overpowered? The answer must be that the DM let them live, or the kobolds were extra stupid (either of which 'adjusts' the CR :rollseyes: ).
Either that or a CR 9 is "overwhelming" for an ECL 3 party and not "impossible" and we caught a couple of lucky breaks on some will saving throws. A 6th level fighter who's surrounded by a Druid, his animal companion, a fighter, and a cleric doesn't last too long unless he's a CC fighter.

martyrX
2010-01-22, 01:33 PM
Several of the kobolds are, by his admission, book kobolds with a slight beef to their AC as they wear scale armor. CR 1/4

Several are described as "elite" kobolds, who use an array of DC14 poison-tipped crossbow bolts and carry no melee weapons. Based on the description, I figured they were 1 level, PC class.

There was a fighter who took an iterative. At least 6th level.

There were three arcane casters using "magic missile" with two missiles each. 3rd level. One of them was described as "More powerful than your wizard" (me) which implies that he's 4th level.

A monk, who I honestly had no clue but plopped him at level2. Considering he was intended to be a personal 1v1 challenge to a character that would have been level 3, it's possible he could be as high as level 4.

The CR range for this encounter is 8-9, by my calculations (I could be wrong).

Either that or a CR 9 is "overwhelming" for an ECL 3 party and not "impossible" and we caught a couple of lucky breaks on some will saving throws. A 6th level fighter who's surrounded by a Druid, his animal companion, a fighter, and a cleric doesn't last too long unless he's a CC fighter.

My point is - who cares what the CR was? You didn't die. Not a single one of you. That means it wasn't too much no matter what the CR was, by anyone's calculations. Stop calculating. Play, survive, have fun. If the DM just starts killing you all the time, you definitely have something to complain about regardless of level, lack of items, or anything else. But if he only makes the fights challenging and not actual death traps - I don't understand why that is a problem. JMO.

Tyndmyr
2010-01-22, 01:37 PM
My point is - who cares what the CR was? You didn't die. Not a single one of you. That means it wasn't too much no matter what the CR was, by anyone's calculations. Stop calculating. Play, survive, have fun. If the DM just starts killing you all the time, you definitely have something to complain about regardless of level, lack of items, or anything else. But if he only makes the fights challenging and not actual death traps - I don't understand why that is a problem. JMO.

The current set of choices are "play in a way they consider unfun", ie, having the wizard run the party or ....die.

There is no play, survive, and have fun option. That's the problem.

Sinfire Titan
2010-01-22, 01:55 PM
The current set of choices are "play in a way they consider unfun", ie, having the wizard run the party or ....die.

There is no play, survive, and have fun option. That's the problem.

Right. Remember, the OP has stated that he's left this DM's games once before, only to be called back when the other players told him they kept getting slaughtered left and right.

Mystic Muse
2010-01-22, 02:36 PM
My point is - who cares what the CR was? You didn't die. Not a single one of you. That means it wasn't too much no matter what the CR was, by anyone's calculations. Stop calculating. Play, survive, have fun. If the DM just starts killing you all the time, you definitely have something to complain about regardless of level, lack of items, or anything else. But if he only makes the fights challenging and not actual death traps - I don't understand why that is a problem. JMO.

The problem is they ARE death traps unless the OP plays other people's characters FOR them. His group clearly doesn't find this fun and that's why he/she's complaining.

Play a game where you don't want to die, but in order for that to happen somebody else has to play your character FOR you each combat and tell me honestly that it's fun.

Like Tyndmyr said. There isn't a play survive and have fun option only a play and survive one.

martyrX
2010-01-22, 02:46 PM
The problem is they ARE death traps unless the OP plays other people's characters FOR them. His group clearly doesn't find this fun and that's why he/she's complaining.

Play a game where you don't want to die, but in order for that to happen somebody else has to play your character FOR you each combat and tell me honestly that it's fun.

Like Tyndmyr said. There isn't a play survive and have fun option.

Why does everyone keep saying "but they're all gonna die!"?. How can anyone KNOW that?

Maybe the OP should try NOT playing the other characters and see what happens. If they all die then it will be confirmed that the DM is using poor judgment and hopefully he/she will be able to adjust accordingly.

One thing I can say with certainty: the OP does not need to "talk to his DM about treasure" because that is not the problem.

Tyndmyr
2010-01-22, 02:52 PM
Why does everyone keep saying "but they're all gonna die!"?. How can anyone KNOW that?

It's a predictable outcome of playing against encounters of that level. Eventually, bad luck will happen.


Maybe the OP should try NOT playing the other characters and see what happens. If they all die then it will be confirmed that the DM is using poor judgment and hopefully he/she will be able to adjust accordingly.

He did. They begged him to come back. Clearly, they all think they're in danger without this tactic.

So, either they are all wrong, or you are. Given that they are actually playing the campaign, and they outnumber you, I trust their assessment of the situation more.


One thing I can say with certainty: the OP does not need to "talk to his DM about treasure" because that is not the problem.

Well, it's part of the problem. The DMs encounter difficulty setting is also part of the problem. Fixing either is probably sufficient, but adjusting treasure is the solution that's best for class balance.

martyrX
2010-01-22, 03:31 PM
It's a predictable outcome of playing against encounters of that level. Eventually, bad luck will happen.


meh, bad luck could happen no matter what. I predict that this DM does not want to kill players. That counts for more than any CR level.



He did. They begged him to come back. Clearly, they all think they're in danger without this tactic.

So, either they are all wrong, or you are. Given that they are actually playing the campaign, and they outnumber you, I trust their assessment of the situation more.


Of course they know more about the situation than I do and of course they are better off using tactics vs. not using them :smallconfused:. Who knows (not the players!) what the DM is really doing though?

The fact remains that they all apparently survived without him. Perhaps they don't NEED his tactics after all.



Well, it's part of the problem. The DMs encounter difficulty setting is also part of the problem. Fixing either is probably sufficient, but adjusting treasure is the solution that's best for class balance.


Clearly the problem is that the DM and OP don't see eye to eye. More magic items won't make the OP happy if the DM just makes things deadlier because of it. Changing the encounter difficulty setting won't make the DM happy if the players aren't threatened the way he wants them to be. D&D is not a video game, where you can flick a switch and make it easier. It is a game of 4 people's brains interacting with a guidebook to help keep the process cohesive.

This group needs to lay out what they think is fun (including the DM), and compromise as best they can, like every group does. I mean really, if none of the players are having any fun, why are they playing with that DM at all? I assume this is because they actually ARE having fun.

Tyndmyr
2010-01-22, 03:44 PM
meh, bad luck could happen no matter what. I predict that this DM does not want to kill players. That counts for more than any CR level.

I didn't say could happen, I said will happen. The higher you push the encounter difficulty, the more likely that one unfortunate event will result in a TPK. For instance, if multiple will saves had been failed in that combat vs kobolds, instead of the chain of lucky successes, they would have almost certainly all died. Saves will get failed eventually.


Of course they know more about the situation than I do and of course they are better off using tactics vs. not using them :smallconfused:. Who knows (not the players!) what the DM is really doing though?

We're not discussing using tactics. Tactics are good. We're discussing the wizard playing the entire party, and telling other players what to do. This is not a good option, and the party is only using it because they see it as preferable to the alternative. That's a problem.


The fact remains that they all apparently survived without him. Perhaps they don't NEED his tactics after all.

I have no information on what happened during that time, so I cannot judge. Anything is possible, but my judgements are based on the information available.


Clearly the problem is that the DM and OP don't see eye to eye. More magic items won't make the OP happy if the DM just makes things deadlier because of it. Changing the encounter difficulty setting won't make the DM happy if the players aren't threatened the way he wants them to be. D&D is not a video game, where you can flick a switch and make it easier. It is a game of 4 people's brains interacting with a guidebook to help keep the process cohesive.

Boosting the amount of loot somewhat will do little for the wizard. He can afford to maybe scribe a coupla scrolls now. Meh. For the melee types, who can now actually afford plate armor and such, it's a huge boost. Having AC 14 as a tank sucks.

Yes, there are things the DM could do to negate the gains made by this fix. If the DM really wants to kill them/ruin the game, he will. ANY fix has to have a cooperative DM.

The video game bit does not appear to be at all relevant to this discussion.


This group needs to lay out what they think is fun (including the DM), and compromise as best they can, like every group does. I mean really, if none of the players are having any fun, why are they playing with that DM at all? I assume this is because they actually ARE having fun.

This isn't a binary good/bad situation. I've seen many a DM that was overall a good guy, but had a problem with an area. It happens. So then, fix the problem, more fun for all.

Sinfire Titan
2010-01-22, 04:21 PM
{Scrubbed}

Sipex
2010-01-22, 04:32 PM
A+ Sinfire.

This thread has gone in too many circles.

Blackfang108
2010-01-22, 04:45 PM
A+ Sinfire.

This thread has gone in too many circles.

This thread hasn't gone in circles.

There's no telling how many dimensions we crossed in our recursiveness here. :smallbiggrin:

jiriku
2010-01-22, 04:50 PM
LOL at turning Ravenloft into Tippyverse -- I heartily approve! Horse-trading has some good potential; even if the locals don't have much cash, you can barter for a place to live, free food and supplies, and what have you. You'll also make great allies out of all the farmers who produce hay, grain, and other horsefeeds. Plus, people never need fear a famine while you're around, since you can produce an unlimited supply of horsemeat. Have you considered picking up some of the summon monster line? You could start a menagerie, a circus, and an exotic restaurant.

Superglucose
2010-01-22, 05:41 PM
LOL at turning Ravenloft into Tippyverse -- I heartily approve! Horse-trading has some good potential; even if the locals don't have much cash, you can barter for a place to live, free food and supplies, and what have you. You'll also make great allies out of all the farmers who produce hay, grain, and other horsefeeds. Plus, people never need fear a famine while you're around, since you can produce an unlimited supply of horsemeat. Have you considered picking up some of the summon monster line? You could start a menagerie, a circus, and an exotic restaurant.
I think I will take Summon Monster 2 and Fox's Cunning as my 4th level spells. It hurts me to do it this way, of course, but I need Fox's Cunning to craft my headband item and Summon Monster 2 so I can sell more thing for more cash.

I'm going to make the Cleric provide spells for my crafting though. Screw taking Magic Weapon.

Sstoopidtallkid
2010-01-22, 05:46 PM
I think I will take Summon Monster 2 and Fox's Cunning as my 4th level spells. It hurts me to do it this way, of course, but I need Fox's Cunning to craft my headband item and Summon Monster 2 so I can sell more thing for more cash.

I'm going to make the Cleric provide spells for my crafting though. Screw taking Magic Weapon.The Cleric gets Fox's Cunning and SMII. Let him cast those.

Delwugor
2010-01-22, 05:52 PM
Last campaign I left, only to return at the behest of one of the players who I really enjoy playing with. The same session I left, they all got TPKed, and the session after they started the Ravenloft campaign and spent two game sessions losing to a wolf. A single wolf.
I just wanted to point out that according to Superglucose the TPK that is being mentioned did not happen in the campaign he is talking about.

So my question is who has died in this Ravenloft campaign?

If I had missed something please feel free to point that out. Believe me I'll listen without having to resort to large red fonts. :smallamused:

Samm
2010-01-22, 06:08 PM
I'm not entirely sure how you translated my post into "it's fine" ... it's a couple of remarks pointing out that a character dieing isn't always non-fun, and then another remark pointing out how lsfreak was presenting a false dichotomy. Neither of those say that the OP's situation is fine.

In fact, I'm pretty sure that in most posts I've made in this thread I've focused on what I think the real problems the OP, rather than just saying "it's fine" ... it's just that what I see as the problem is not the same thing that the OP sees as the problem.

The point is I think a number of people are saying that there is nothing (or almost nothing) wrong with the GM, and the problem lies in superglucose (who seems actually rather innocent). The comment I made about saying the situation is "fine", was not directed at you, rather the whole thread. As kind of a an agreement we all should make.


That doesn't make any sense... it's not an IC/RP reason, it's a pure videogame logic reason. Why would the encounters weaken? Because in a realistic world, the difficulty of one encounter does not necessarily say anything about the difficulty of the next encounter. Sure, in a games it's often the case that the difficulty of encounters progress, but that has nothing to do with anything IC, or RP; it's purely a function of playing a game.

Think of it like this, your in the wilderness fighting hordes of bandits, all yesterday, as if they were common. However tommorow, all the bandits have dissapeared into thin air, and in their place have come rats. 'Tis a bit strange don't you think? I mean that example is probably terrible, so I'll put it another way: If you're wandering through a forest packed with CR9 monsters one day, and tommorow you wake up in the same forest but fight CR4 monsters and no CR9s something would appear strange. Perhaps, Where did all the CR9 monsters go?

Also I probably shouldn't have said IC or RP reasons, it has more to do with common sense.


That's no excuse for playing other people's characters for them; he should offer help, yes, but he's doing too much of the decision making for other players.

They're literally asking him/her to! They're asking Superglucose to make all the decisions for them. This situation is far from ideal, I concede that, but desperate times call for desperate measures and this is possibly the only way they can cope against such odds.


There's a certain amount of this that is certainly true; the GM represents the game world, and the world of Ravenloft is indeed out to screw the players.

But I'm really skeptical that this GM is going any further than that... otherwise I'd expect to see a huge pile of bodies from characters killed long before they reached level 3... and from the OP's comments, noone has died yet.

Are you sure, that he's just staying true to Ravenloft? And even so, couldn't he just make it easier, and keep with Ravenloft themes, motifs etc. Also I would say that if the group isn't happy then there is something wrong. Maybe the group dislikes Ravenloft, maybe the GM is at fault for making it too hard, or maybe the players are at fault for some reason. But something has to give, this situation cannot last.

Roland St. Jude
2010-01-22, 06:52 PM
Sheriff of Moddingham: Please keep it civil in here and follow the Forum Rules.

martyrX
2010-01-22, 07:42 PM
The video game bit does not appear to be at all relevant to this discussion.


On the contrary, I think it is most relevant. It seems people here are implying that all the DM needs to do in this case is decrease the CR, or give out some magic items (flick a switch...*better now*). That switch flicking is what I was referring to with 'video games'. My point was that the human interaction/group storytelling that is roleplaying is so much more complicated than that, that these fixes won't actually fix anything.

What needs to change here is playing philosophy, probably both for the DM and the players.

Superglucose
2010-01-22, 08:37 PM
The Cleric gets Fox's Cunning and SMII. Let him cast those.
No, she does not get Fox's Cunning. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/foxsCunning.htm)

In any case, provided I can dole out some gold to my compatriots (which I've been doing... I think so far i have spent maybe 50gp on my own character, including starting cash, and just this last game I dropped 100gp on some hide armor for the druid. Ironically, two of the party members seem to think I'm "only in it for the money" despite the fact that I'm constantly buying them stuff, simply because my character doesn't like it when people ask him to do a job but don't offer compensation) the whole mess will probably work itself out over time. We're better equipped, and i've voiced my complaints, so either he a) scales up the difficulty, reasoning that now we have mwk armor so we should be able to take these baddies on, or b) scales the difficulty slightly down/give us slightly more cash. In either case my character will survive.

There's currently a party schism going on as one player/character is blaming myself/my character for the death of that player's character (ok, don't go into melee with a grizzly bear when at 1HP. Everyone at the table told you it was a bad idea, and you did it anyways) since I was the one who suggested we hunt the bear (killed it good too). So he's trying to RP his character into a leadership role, which frankly my character will be all-too-glad to give up.

The only divergance, of course, is going to be when I have to RP my character grudgingly take back command while I as a player will want to be spouting off tons of "I-told-you-so's" to this guy :smallamused:

I'm curious how long this new goal of earning tons of money will go over with the GM, actually. I'm waiting for the GM Fiat "No one wants to buy horses" so I can laugh and leave the table.

absolmorph
2010-01-22, 08:56 PM
When the GM says "no one wants to buy the horses," kill them and either eat them or sell the meat.

Flickerdart
2010-01-22, 09:34 PM
Or just make a few thousand and let them loose. Finish off whatever the stampede doesn't and loot as the fancy strikes you.

absolmorph
2010-01-22, 10:00 PM
Or just make a few thousand and let them loose. Finish off whatever the stampede doesn't and loot as the fancy strikes you.
This also works.
Actually, I think it may work better than my idea.
After all, this also has the benefit of getting you a lot of money and killing stuff.

EDIT: A 3rd level sorcerer can summon 6 mounts/day (or more, if your Cha is really high) and a 3rd level wizard can summon 5/day (same caveat, 'cept for Int), if each uses all their spell slots just for horses. Given time, I think you could over run the plane.

Demons_eye
2010-01-22, 10:07 PM
I think we should lock the op up before he becomes the next Napoleon.

Really I think not having master work things by level three is ridicules. Have all the melee people died, remake character's with VoP, and have them give you all their gold they gain so you can build a orphanage :smallwink:

chiasaur11
2010-01-22, 10:12 PM
I think we should lock the op up before he becomes the next Napoleon.

Really I think not having master work things by level three is ridicules. Have all the melee people died, remake character's with VoP, and have them give you all their gold they gain so you can build a orphanage :smallwink:

All the gold for an orphanage?

Considering the gold coffers, I'm sure both orphans it fits will be moderately happy until the roof caves in.

martyrX
2010-01-23, 10:36 AM
I'm curious how long this new goal of earning tons of money will go over with the GM, actually. I'm waiting for the GM Fiat "No one wants to buy horses" so I can laugh and leave the table.

I'm telling you: in ravenloft this won't work for long. You are NOT summoning creatures from another plane, you are summoning creatures from the domain you are in. All summoning in Ravenloft works this way.

You are effectively selling stolen horses. Normally this would be fine. In Ravenloft, it's a powers check.

On a happier note, it sounds like you have worked some things out with the group. Here's hoping it goes well.

Superglucose
2010-01-23, 11:37 PM
:smalleek:

Now I have to OK the spell selection by level with him?

This deal is getting worse all the time!

Mystic Muse
2010-01-24, 01:11 AM
:smalleek:

Now I have to OK the spell selection by level with him?

This deal is getting worse all the time!

It sounds like you REALLY need to talk to this guy. He might be intentionally gimping you if he didn't state this at the start of the campaign.

Knaight
2010-01-24, 01:23 AM
Or it is a sign that he knows it isn't fun for the other players to be constantly overshadowed and is trying to fix it.

Kylarra
2010-01-24, 01:26 AM
:smalleek:

Now I have to OK the spell selection by level with him?

This deal is getting worse all the time!That's actually not too far-fetched really, assuming he's not nixing things left and right.

Sinfire Titan
2010-01-24, 01:29 AM
Or it is a sign that he knows it isn't fun for the other players to be constantly overshadowed and is trying to fix it.

...Did you read this thread? You know what, screw it.




@Superglucose: This campaign is somewhat interesting. Could you post as much of the last few sessions as you can? Combat's the main thing I'm looking for, as that is the problem we need to address. If possible, post your stats and as much of the rest of the party as you can (we know there's a Druid, a Rogue, a Fighter, another Fighter, and one other besides your Wizard). I need some serious crunch for this.

jiriku
2010-01-24, 01:39 AM
Superglucose, I have just one other possible solution for you. It's not for everyone, but hey, advice is free on the internet, right?

My take is that your DM sucks. Hey, it's no great crime. I sucked too for the first couple years that I was learning to DM. However, there is a way to accelerate his learning curve.

Assuming you do not suck as a DM, start a campaign. Invite him to play in it. Talk shop with him often, and share why you run your games the way you do. After several months of having a really great time playing in your campaign, he may begin to incorporate some of your DMing style and philosophy into his own campaign. Essentially, you can be his role model.

$0.02.

absolmorph
2010-01-24, 03:40 AM
Or it is a sign that he knows it isn't fun for the other players to be constantly overshadowed and is trying to fix it.
Except, from the sound of things, the OP isn't overshadowing at all because of his spells. Just a lack of magic items from the melee (which is what they rely on).

Nai_Calus
2010-01-24, 07:14 AM
Get out. Just get out and don't join this guy's games again.

Seriously, I've been in a campaign like that with no gear, except it was at L7 and included such joyful monsters as a Babau, and it was godawful and not at all fun.

Bail.

Jayabalard
2010-01-25, 09:21 AM
...Did you read this thread? You know what, screw it.I would guess that it's likely he has, he just is reading the thread without your personal bias, so he's interpreting things differently than you do. I find Knaight's comment quite reasonable in response to Superglucose having to OK his spell selection with the GM.


Except, from the sound of things, the OP isn't overshadowing at all because of his spells. Just a lack of magic items from the melee (which is what they rely on).That's still overshadowing because of spells; if the goal is to have people at the power level of the magic itemless melees, and spells are letting him get buy without spending anything on himself, then spells are effectivly overshadowing the rest of the party.

Though my suspicion is that it's more likely in response to either a specific spell that he has used or one that he's mentioned wanting to use when he gets his next set of spells.


Now I have to OK the spell selection by level with him?

This deal is getting worse all the time!That's really not too far fetched; I'm kind of curious if this is in response to a particular spell that you've used recently.

In any case, it definitely is looking like the DM considers your character to be too powerful; probably more specifically: that he considers your character to be too powerful compared to the other players. You should probably talk to him about that directly, and see if you can find a mutually satisfactory solution to that problem.


I'm curious how long this new goal of earning tons of money will go over with the GM, actually. I'm waiting for the GM Fiat "No one wants to buy horses" so I can laugh and leave the table.If martyrX is correct in how summoning works in Ravenloft, then that's not really GM Fiat...

Demonix
2010-01-25, 12:43 PM
You know, lets forget about RAW, RAI and how summoning in ravenloft works. The only question that needs to be answered is this:

Is it fun for all involved?

If yes, good! If no, then you need to fix it.

It doesn't matter what the CLs are of the encounters or how much loot anyone is getting if the players/GM are so dissatisfied that it is beginning to turn into OOC arguments.

Maybe it can be fixed, maybe not. Maybe someone else will need to DM and the campaign will need to be abandoned, it doesnt matter.

The overall goal is to have fun; so lets stop arguing overwhat will and will not work in game and fix the underlying problem.

Tyndmyr
2010-01-25, 02:10 PM
:smalleek:

Now I have to OK the spell selection by level with him?

This deal is getting worse all the time!

In my experience, every DM that has ever reacted to imbalance by simply banning everything more powerful than X has been a crappy DM.

Good DMs use house rules, ban very seldomly, and tend to make use of the Gentleman's agreement. They also don't structure the campaign to make the players angry at the DM and each other. Difficulty need not translate to anger.

Yeah, stage a revolution. Have someone else DM.

Vizzerdrix
2010-01-25, 02:22 PM
Dude, Just wipe. At this point, if you're having to give out tactile advice every combat, if your needing to save everyone's bacon with clever spell use and now he's taking that away, just wipe. Just don't do it in combat. Don't give him the satisfaction of that. Then get everyone to regen as tier 1s, give everything you can beg, borrow and steal to the artificer and if the DM trys to mess with yous, sit in town and just let the town guards deal with it.

Honestly this game is sounding worse and worse with every one of your posts. :smallfrown:

Tyndmyr
2010-01-25, 02:29 PM
Well, a brand new campaign would likely be more satisfying in the long run, but if you all decide that breaking his campaign, or turning it into a joke is more amusing, go nuts.

Coming soon, ravenloft with cream pies, clown cars, and rubber shoes.

Vizzerdrix
2010-01-25, 02:34 PM
Well, a brand new campaign would likely be more satisfying in the long run, but if you all decide that breaking his campaign, or turning it into a joke is more amusing, go nuts.

Coming soon, ravenloft with cream pies, clown cars, and rubber shoes.

Your Ravenloft scares me (http://www.spokesmanreview.com/blogs/vox/media/photo10-21d.jpg) :eek:

Demonix
2010-01-27, 03:49 PM
Hey OP! any updates?

Seryna
2010-01-30, 12:02 AM
I don't understand... they're upset because he's telling them how to run their characters. He should stop doing that. He can stop doing that without just saying "no" when people ask him for help.

I don't think that letting the party die is the answer to every thing. They'll be pissed at him and saying 'well, if OP had told me what to do, we'd probably live like last time.'

Megaduck, why are you consistently stating that the OP is the problem? From what I (and some others here) have inferred from the OP's post is that the game is a 'nose to the grindstone' just to survive. That isn't fun. No one spends free time beating their head against a wall. Why should the Op and his group have to do that?

As the OP asked, its easier to talk to the DM. The squeaky wheel gets the grease.


Last campaign I left, only to return at the behest of one of the players who I really enjoy playing with. The same session I left, they all got TPKed, and the session after they started the Ravenloft campaign and spent two game sessions losing to a wolf. A single wolf.

Superglucose; that tells me that you are not the problem as others are stating. Clearly, the campaign needs to change.
It might be helpful if you meet up with the players having trouble and explain why you told them to do such and such. 'Last encounter, when we were attacked by ---, I told you to --- because you'd free --- up to do ---.' Draft the DM to help 'teach' good ideas for encounters. See what ideas the DM gives; it may help you figure out where he's coming from.

I'm a big fan of 'the best way to learn, is to do'. You're helping them figure it out, now its the DMs turn to take some of the burden off of your shoulders. Simply telling him that you are not having fun would be #1 on my to - do list.
Tell the player's that you mean to talk to the DM and see how they feel. If they're saying 'don't rock the boat', take the advice. If they give you a laundry list of problems to address with him; clearly a one on one is in order.

Yes, any updates?
[Yes, I joined to reply to this thread instead of continually ghosting].