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LibraryOgre
2010-01-19, 05:06 PM
So, another semester has come and gone, and my most recent character (Optimus Prime, Warforged Cleric) has headed off to find the gnomes and the origin of the Warforged.

And now I'm not sure what I want to play. I was thinking about a Bugbear Rogue, 'cause, hey, two large daggers, but the DM (who I will now refer to by my pet name for him, Dream-crusher) said no large weapons. Which means playing a bugbear is a lot less fun.*

So, what do I want to play? Pretty much anything in the DDI is open (though Dream-crusher has obviously nixed the high point of bugbears). Our party consists of:

Berian, the neurotic Eladrin Wizard
Furious Rex, the Dragonborn Barbarian
Orsik, the Dwarven Artificer
Tempestuous Rex, the Dragonborn Paladin
Alex, a something or other Bard

We're playing around 12th level. What do I want to play?


*Note I will have fun with any character from a straight-up gaming standpoint. I can sit around the table and enjoy the heck out of anyone, and do my best to make them memorable. But there's also the mechanical fun of playing a dual-wielding bugbear rogue whose name means "I have a knife" according to a 15-year-old fantasy novel.

AtopTheMountain
2010-01-19, 05:18 PM
Sounds like you need another Striker. Personally, my favorite class is Avenger, and it's really good as well. For Avengers, the Isolating build is probably the best -- the other two really rely on outside circumstances to be useful. If you really want dual-wielding, be a ranger with two bastard swords -- very high damage, and Ranger is just a powerful class. Also for Ranger, one paragon path (Shock Trooper) from Martial Power is very good with lots of dual wielding, but you will need to multiclass to Fighter to get it. However, since your other striker is also melee, I would suggest a ranged striker. The best ones are Sorcerer, Warlock, and Ranger (ranged build). I don't know a lot about the last two, but the best Sorcerer builds (IMO) are Chaos and Cosmic (from Arcane Power). Dragon can be okay too, you deal a lot of damage, but you end up in melee a lot which isn't always safe for a Sorcerer with no armor.

Kylarra
2010-01-19, 05:20 PM
I-gore the Minotaur fighter with opportunity gore who knocks everything and anything that provokes an OA prone, killing their movement.

Draz74
2010-01-19, 05:23 PM
I vote Warlock. Just because I haven't seen Warlocks get enough 4e love lately.

Artanis
2010-01-19, 05:23 PM
Hmm...

Just from a party-role perspective, there's more Controllers and Leaders than you can shake a stick at, so you really don't need another secondary Controller. You're definitely lacking in firepower though, so a high-DPR class would be a great help.

Depending on the builds of the Bard and Artificer, I'd suggest either a shooty Ranger or a DPR-focused Fighter. Go with the Fighter to back up the Paladin if you need more bodies to clog up the front lines, or go with the Ranger if you already have enough meat shields in the party.

Yakk
2010-01-19, 05:24 PM
Berian, the neurotic Eladrin Wizard
Furious Rex, the Dragonborn Barbarian
Orsik, the Dwarven Artificer
Tempestuous Rex, the Dragonborn Paladin
Alex, a something or other Bard
Controller sub Striker
Striker sub Defender
Leader sub Controller
Defender sub Leader
Leader sub Controller

1 + 2/4 Controller
1 + 1/4 Striker
1 + 1/4 Defender
2 + 1/4 Leader

That makes Strikers and Defenders the two low points in your group, roughly.

Using this algorithm, I'd go with a Defender sub Striker or Striker sub Defender, or a Striker | Defender.

(I like using the rest of the group's choices to decide on a role to fill, because it acts as a sufficiently interesting random number generator.)

We're playing around 12th level. What do I want to play?
The next question would be what the power level of the group is supposed to be.

You don't want to use a high-end combo in a group that isn't, especially if you are stepping on someone else's toes.

The most important things would be "what are the other members of your role doing, power-wise". So the Barbarian and Paladin -- any clue how "built" their builds are going to be?

...

Next question. Do you expect a combat-heavy game, or one in which combat is a last resort? Do you expect the DM to set up set-pieces, and avoid you being able to change them by out-of-combat actions, or not?

Next question: ritual casting. Are you a fan? Is the DM a fan? Are there ritual casters in the group?

...

Next question. World fluff. I see we have 2 Dragonborn, one Dwarf, and one Eladrin. The Bard is unknown. What is the world like? Fitting into world full can provide yet another 'random' source of inspiration.

...

How goes the party ranged/melee balance? Paladins and Barbarians are melee-only mostly. Much of the rest could vary alot. (At paragon, throwing flying opponents that actually fly at you is pretty fair game. Having to Knock The Dragon Down Every Single Round gets ... tricky and dangerous!)

Draz74
2010-01-19, 05:25 PM
Just from a party-role perspective, there's more Controllers and Leaders than you can shake a stick at, so you really don't need another secondary Controller.

... I only see one Controller. Are Bard and Artificer both considered secondary Controllers or something?

EDIT: OK, Yakk seems to concur.

Eorran
2010-01-19, 05:31 PM
Monk, MC or hybrid Druid - for the Wildshape. Pick your beast form to resemble a panda. :smallbiggrin:

Hal
2010-01-19, 05:41 PM
I had a lot of fun playing a Gnome Rogue for a while. Many of the benefits of playing a halfling, but with all the added opportunities a gnome brings to the table.

Since you have DDI, an Assassin could be interesting. Being DDI only, they don't see a lot of mileage.

As a third idea, I had a fun idea that would depend heavily on a GM working with you. Play a "Storm Sorcerer" refluffed as a tinker. The powers are the result of various devices, gadgets, and gizmos he carries to use in combat. Daily power? One use and it fizzles, needing to be repaired. Special properties on a certain roll? The thing overloads and blasts its target. It'd require a bit of work to do properly.

Wings of Peace
2010-01-19, 05:43 PM
Monk, MC or hybrid Druid - for the Wildshape. Pick your beast form to resemble a panda. :smallbiggrin:

Something like this you say? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BBiKE0x4IPo)

LibraryOgre
2010-01-19, 05:47 PM
Sounds like you need another Striker. Personally, my favorite class is Avenger, and it's really good as well.

We had an Avenger a little bit ago. Not sure if I want to go back over that ground.


I-gore the Minotaur fighter with opportunity gore who knocks everything and anything that provokes an OA prone, killing their movement.

One of my previous characters was Hecar, the Minotaur Paladin.


I vote Warlock. Just because I haven't seen Warlocks get enough 4e love lately.

And I just played a Warlock in the one-shot... I'd upgrade him to 12th, but gnomes are rare/non-existent in his world.


Hmm...

Just from a party-role perspective, there's more Controllers and Leaders than you can shake a stick at, so you really don't need another secondary Controller. You're definitely lacking in firepower though, so a high-DPR class would be a great help.

Depending on the builds of the Bard and Artificer, I'd suggest either a shooty Ranger or a DPR-focused Fighter. Go with the Fighter to back up the Paladin if you need more bodies to clog up the front lines, or go with the Ranger if you already have enough meat shields in the party.

The Bard is a shooty bard; the wizard is also a multiclass cleric. So DPR and tanking would probably be a good option.


Controller sub Striker
Striker sub Defender
Leader sub Controller
Defender sub Leader
Leader sub Controller

1 + 2/4 Controller
1 + 1/4 Striker
1 + 1/4 Defender
2 + 1/4 Leader

That makes Strikers and Defenders the two low points in your group, roughly.

As mentioned above, the Wizard is also sub leader, so, yeah, looks like I need striker, and maybe some defender. None of us are high-powered tweakers, so that's unlikely to be an issue.

Yakk
2010-01-19, 05:51 PM
After all of that...

How about a melee dragonborn that breaths fire, ice, lighting, etc?

Dragonborn Fighter | Sorcerer MC Assassin
Str 16+2+3; Cha 16+2+3; Dex 12;Wis 12; Con 10; Int 8
1: Hybrid Talent: Soul of the Dragon
2: Leather Armor
4: Focused Expertise (Quarterstaff)
6: Weapon Focus (Quarterstaff)
8: Multiclass Assassin
10: Whatever
11: Staff Fighting (need wis 13), Retrain Feat 10 to Dual Implement Spellcaster
12: ???

Paragon Path: ???
Equipment:
13 Staff of Ruin used as a Quarterstaff.
12 maybe Feytouched Armor +3? (MW)
11 Amulet +3

AC: 10 + 5 stat + 3 armor +3 enhance + 1 quarterstaff +6 level= 28 (L+16)
Fort: 10 + 5 stat + 3 enhance + 1 class +6 level = 25 (L+13)
Reflex: 10 + 1 stat + 3 enhance +6 level = 20 (L+8)
Will: 25 (L+13)

Sorcerer powers deal +5 str +5 cha +3 enhance + 3 ruin + 3 dual-implement +2 feat = +21 static damage.
Fighter powers deal +5 str +3 enhance +3 ruin + 2 feat = +13 static damage.

For at-will, grab Dual Strike and Burning Spray.

To hit is +15 sorc/+17 fighter (L+3/L+5), which is mediocre.

But it is a sufficiently different dragonborn than either of the other two. And could be fun to play.

This is a reasonably tweaked build that sucks. Ie, the base (fighter | sorcerer) isn't very synergetic, but I tried to tweak it upwards to make it work.

You end up with a Defender | Striker | Controller character.

I MC'd assassin ... because I could. ;) Really, the 8 and 12 feat is up to you.

If you want more static bonuses, two weapon fighting and defence grant +1 damage mainhand, +1 AC and +1 Reflex. Toss in paragon hybrid classing (which is sub-par), and you can grab fighter combat talent for +1 to hit with one handed weapons.

That ups your sorcerer static damage bonus to +22, fighter (mainhand) to +21, and your to hit to L+4/L+6 (more respectable), your AC to L+17 (also better), and your reflex to L+9 (shoring up a weak defence).

Those really aren't optimal.

Grab every close blast power you can get as a sorcerer, and fluff them all as dragon breath.

(I'd normally build this as a sorcerer | barbarian, but barbarian is already taken.

Building functional fighters who wear leather armor is somewhat amusing. Note that you are a secondary defender, behind the Paladin -- your job as a Fighter is to get as close as you can to 2 targets to attack you while the Paladin tanks the rest. Once it breaks 2 targets, you start pulling out the breath weapons and burning large numbers of opponents down!)

Hybrid Talent: Tempest technique is also tempting, because it gives you TWDefence (which saves you the need to go for TWF and TWD), but your primary half of the quarterstaff only gets +1 damage, while the offhand gets +1 to hit and +2 damage. That requires paragon hybrid pathing (because dragon soul is a must).

The downside for Paragon Hybriding is that is is a pretty mediocre paragon path. And your primary and offhand attacks end up being different if you go with tempest.

There are lots of good Paragon Paths to go into for this character (various breath powers, etc). I sort of like the one that grants flight, but so will your other Dragonborn. :-)

Evard
2010-01-19, 07:05 PM
So, another semester has come and gone, and my most recent character (Optimus Prime, Warforged Cleric) has headed off to find the gnomes and the origin of the Warforged.

And now I'm not sure what I want to play. I was thinking about a Bugbear Rogue, 'cause, hey, two large daggers, but the DM (who I will now refer to by my pet name for him, Dream-crusher) said no large weapons. Which means playing a bugbear is a lot less fun.*

So, what do I want to play? Pretty much anything in the DDI is open (though Dream-crusher has obviously nixed the high point of bugbears). Our party consists of:

Berian, the neurotic Eladrin Wizard
Furious Rex, the Dragonborn Barbarian
Orsik, the Dwarven Artificer
Tempestuous Rex, the Dragonborn Paladin
Alex, a something or other Bard

We're playing around 12th level. What do I want to play?


*Note I will have fun with any character from a straight-up gaming standpoint. I can sit around the table and enjoy the heck out of anyone, and do my best to make them memorable. But there's also the mechanical fun of playing a dual-wielding bugbear rogue whose name means "I have a knife" according to a 15-year-old fantasy novel.

Play a Sorcerer, get up close and personal!

Half-Elf Sorcerer!

Tehnar
2010-01-19, 07:38 PM
Sir Homeslice

Human Great Weapon Fighter/Kensai
STR 23
CON 13
DEX 15
INT 9
WIS 13
CHA 11

Fullblade, Bloodcut Hide armor, Circlet of Authority

After taking too many hits to the head, Sir Homeslice believes he is a paladin of the might god Zarus. He doesn't know who Zarus is and believes all his powers are in the form of kicking butt goodness. Think Minsc meets Gunnery Sergeant Hartman with a religious conviction, but he cares nothing about other peoples religions (and doesn't know about his own, makes things up). He is a megalomaniac too, and believes the party (and he is of course their leader) has to follow his plans. Gets angry and threatens with Zarus smiting when they wont. Take student of battle so you can yell at them and they get better (proving that his god is inspiring).

Xallace
2010-01-19, 07:44 PM
I know that there is already a barbarian, but I'll toss in Half-Elf Sorcerer (Dragon or Cosmic Soul) MC Barbarian. Rage Mage!

Feats:
1. Sorcerous Blade Channeling
2. Focused Expertise (Dagger)
4. Berserker's Fury
6. Rampant Fury
8. Novice Power (any Encounter power you feel appropriate)
10. Adept Power (any Rage you feel appropriate)
11. Versatile Master
12. Dual Implement Spellcaster

Make your Dilletante power a Barbarian at-will (might I suggest Whirling Rend?), take Ancestral Weapon as your paragon path, and put a dagger in each hand. Now you're adding your Cha to your healing surges, healing when you use action points, and hitting with blade-channeled at-wills on your rampaging charges!

Of course, Dragon Soul's many close attacks will give you an edge when you're cavorting around melee range, but I'm sure you could have some good fun with Cosmic Soul if you wanted.

Optimized? Eh, probably not. But it sounds like a lot of fun to me.

DragonBaneDM
2010-01-19, 09:05 PM
I'm agreeing with the striker ideas coming from here.

However, I also find that parties with a balance between melee and ranged seem to do better.

Therefore I suggest either a Sorcerer or Avenger, depending on what the artificer and bard are doing.

Evard
2010-01-19, 09:40 PM
I know that there is already a barbarian, but I'll toss in Half-Elf Sorcerer (Dragon or Cosmic Soul) MC Barbarian. Rage Mage!

Feats:
1. Sorcerous Blade Channeling
2. Focused Expertise (Dagger)
4. Berserker's Fury
6. Rampant Fury
8. Novice Power (any Encounter power you feel appropriate)
10. Adept Power (any Rage you feel appropriate)
11. Versatile Master
12. Dual Implement Spellcaster

Make your Dilletante power a Barbarian at-will (might I suggest Whirling Rend?), take Ancestral Weapon as your paragon path, and put a dagger in each hand. Now you're adding your Cha to your healing surges, healing when you use action points, and hitting with blade-channeled at-wills on your rampaging charges!

Of course, Dragon Soul's many close attacks will give you an edge when you're cavorting around melee range, but I'm sure you could have some good fun with Cosmic Soul if you wanted.

Optimized? Eh, probably not. But it sounds like a lot of fun to me.


The best redmage ever (ok so i'm a bit biased since i made it lol) is

Human Hybrid (warlord/sorcerer)
====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
Sin Redmage Hybrid, level 1
Human, Warlord|Sorcerer
Hybrid Talent: Warlord Armor Proficiency
Hybrid Warlord: Hybrid Warlord Will
Sorcerous Power: Sorcerous Power Strength
Arcane Implement Proficiency: Arcane Implement Proficiency (heavy blade group)

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 17, Con 14, Dex 13, Int 10, Wis 8, Cha 15.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 15, Con 14, Dex 13, Int 10, Wis 8, Cha 15.


AC: 17 Fort: 14 Reflex: 13 Will: 15
HP: 26 Surges: 8 Surge Value: 6

TRAINED SKILLS
Intimidate +7, Arcana +5, Athletics +7, Bluff +7

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics, Diplomacy +2, Dungeoneering -1, Endurance +1, Heal -1, History, Insight -1, Nature -1, Perception -1, Religion, Stealth, Streetwise +2, Thievery

FEATS
Human: Hybrid Talent
Level 1: Arcane Implement Proficiency

POWERS
Bonus At-Will Power: Lightning Strike
Hybrid Sorcerer at-will 1: Dragonfrost
Hybrid Warlord at-will 1: Wolf Pack Tactics
Hybrid encounter 1: Nimble Footwork
Hybrid daily 1: Ice Javelins

ITEMS
Light Shield, Broadsword, Adventurer's Kit, Hide Armor


As you level up you get good melee attacks along with good magic attacks and since you have some healing it fits the red mage pretty good. I'm also working on a way to make a red mage with a wizard but i'll get back to here when i'm done with it...

Here is Avenger/Wizard which I kind of like but i like the previous one at higher levels

====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
redmage 2.1, level 1
Human, Avenger|Wizard
Hybrid Avenger: Hybrid Avenger Fortitude
Hybrid Talent: Armor of Faith

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 10, Con 11, Dex 14, Int 16, Wis 16, Cha 10.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 10, Con 11, Dex 14, Int 16, Wis 14, Cha 10.


AC: 16 Fort: 12 Reflex: 14 Will: 15
HP: 23 Surges: 6 Surge Value: 5

TRAINED SKILLS
Insight +8, Perception +8, Arcana +8, Acrobatics +7

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Bluff, Diplomacy, Dungeoneering +3, Endurance, Heal +3, History +3, Intimidate, Nature +3, Religion +3, Stealth +2, Streetwise, Thievery +2, Athletics

FEATS
Human: Hybrid Talent
Level 1: Expanded Spellbook

POWERS
Bonus At-Will Power: Magic Missile
Hybrid Avenger at-will 1: Leading Strike
Hybrid Wizard at-will 1: Thunderwave
Hybrid encounter 1: Shielded by Faith
Hybrid daily 1: Wizard's Fury
Wizard daily 1 Spellbook: Sleep

ITEMS
Cloth Armor (Basic Clothing), Greatsword, Adventurer's Kit
====== Copy to Clipboard and Press the Import Button on the Summary Tab ======

Sinon
2010-01-19, 10:43 PM
I’d like to combine Kylarra’s I-gore with Draz et al.’s suggestions for warlock:

Minotaur Warlock: Infernal, star, or vestige all start with Con. So that’s an option. There’s a Dragon Mag article with a polearm that can be used as an implement. Or get heavy blades as implements with the feat.

NPCMook
2010-01-19, 11:57 PM
I'll throw my hat in the mix!

====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
Terios, level 12
Minotaur, Fighter|Warden
Hybrid Warden: Hybrid Warden Will
Hybrid Talent: Fighter Combat Talent
Fighter Combat Talent: Battlerager Vigor (Hybrid)
Background: Geography - Forest (+2 to Perception)

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 21, Con 19, Dex 12, Int 12, Wis 14, Cha 12.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 16, Con 14, Dex 11, Int 11, Wis 13, Cha 11.


AC: 22 Fort: 23 Reflex: 19 Will: 20
HP: 111 Surges: 13 Surge Value: 27

TRAINED SKILLS
Perception +20, Endurance +15, Athletics +16

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +7, Arcana +7, Bluff +7, Diplomacy +7, Dungeoneering +8, Heal +8, History +7, Insight +8, Intimidate +7, Nature +10, Religion +7, Stealth +7, Streetwise +7, Thievery +7

FEATS
Level 1: Hybrid Talent
Level 2: Hide Armor Expertise
Level 4: Weapon Focus (Hammer)
Level 6: Crushing Guardian
Level 8: Toughness
Level 10: Weapon Proficiency (Mordenkrad)
Level 11: Hammer Rhythm
Level 12: Paragon Defenses

POWERS
Hybrid Fighter at-will 1: Crushing Surge
Hybrid Warden at-will 1: Strength of Stone
Hybrid encounter 1: Passing Attack
Hybrid daily 1: Form of Mountain's Thunder
Hybrid utility 2: Nature's Abundance
Hybrid encounter 3: Strongskin Clash
Hybrid daily 5: Pinning Smash
Hybrid utility 6: Unbreakable
Hybrid encounter 7: Savage Parry
Hybrid daily 9: Form of the Stone Sentinel
Hybrid utility 10: Warding Vines

ITEMS
Drowmesh of Exploits +3, Vicious Mordenkrad +3, Headband of Perception (paragon tier)
====== Copy to Clipboard and Press the Import Button on the Summary Tab ======


A bit of Temp HP along with a high Perception to see all those traps you'll probably walk into.

Asbestos
2010-01-20, 01:21 AM
A glimpse at Prickles, the Bladeling Monk.

====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
Prickles, level 12
Bladeling, Monk
Monastic Tradition: Centered Breath
Razor Storm: Razor Storm Dexterity

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 14, Con 14, Dex 21, Int 11, Wis 19, Cha 11.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 13, Con 13, Dex 16, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 10.


AC: 23 Fort: 20 Reflex: 22 Will: 21
HP: 81 Surges: 9 Surge Value: 20

TRAINED SKILLS
Stealth +16, Thievery +16, Acrobatics +16, Athletics +13

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Arcana +6, Bluff +6, Diplomacy +6, Dungeoneering +10, Endurance +8, Heal +10, History +6, Insight +10, Intimidate +8, Nature +10, Perception +10, Religion +6, Streetwise +6

FEATS
Level 1: Improved Razor Storm
Level 2: Defensive Mobility
Level 4: Slow Fall

POWERS
Monk at-will 1: Crane's Wings
Monk at-will 1: Dragon's Tail
Monk encounter 1: Open the Gate of Battle
Monk daily 1: Masterful Spiral
Monk utility 2: Agile Recovery
Monk encounter 3: Twin Thunders
Monk daily 5: One Hundred Leaves
Monk utility 6: Mighty Sprint
Monk encounter 7: Strike the Avalanche
Monk daily 9: Strength to Weakness
Monk utility 10: Spider Technique

====== Copy to Clipboard and Press the Import Button on the Summary Tab ======

You'll notice that I didn't bother equipping him or giving him all his feats, but I imagine that Mr. Hall can figure that stuff out. Prickles focuses on speed, mobility, and damage. He can use his crazy jumping/running/climbing ability to get into the middle of groups, mess someone up with his Bruce Lee impression, and then impale everyone around him by shooting spikes out of his body. His level 2 and 6 Utility powers are actually Skill Utility powers rather than monk powers.

Thajocoth
2010-01-20, 08:06 AM
If you're going by straight-up party balance, you need a ranged striker. But really, you can be anything that sounds cool. Except a Bugbear, apparently...

Here's an idea I've tossed around for a while but never played yet: Changeling Warlock, Dark Pact, that takes the shape of your previous character. Max out Cha, get the mundane item that gives a bonus to your disguises... Basically make Bluff high enough that no one in the party will know you're not a new character. Only, now what you do in a fight seems to look different...

Hzurr
2010-01-20, 11:44 AM
Hi, I'm the DM (aka "Dreamcrusher")

A few thoughts:

- Bugbear is still an option (he'll just have to use normal sized weapons)
- We've houseruled in that everyone gets one of the "expertise" feats for free (weapon expertise, implement expertise, etc.), as well as paragon defenses.
- Alex the Bard is a changling(although I don't think anyone knows that IC), MC rogue, and is playing the ranged bard build (he has the paragon path where you use a bow as your implement).
- Gnomes are...rare in our campaign world, but then again so are PCs, so gnome is still an option

- As far as optimization goes, the only highly optimized character is the barbarian. The artificer is well built, but not always played as effectively as he could be. The wizard is a very straightforward build, but is played well. The paladin is purely average. The bard is oddly built, but is played well.

- As far as combat/RP balance goes, we've been a bit more combat heavy in the past, although we're moving away from that a little bit (but there will still be a decent amount).

- Rituals haven't been used a lot, but they're coming up more often lately.

- In terms of what the party needs, a ranged striker would be very useful. There's a decent amount of healing to go around, and between the barbarian and the paladin, the front line is fairly solid (although the artificer, wizard, and bard are all exceptionally squishy, so make someone who can take a few hits if need be. Ranger, or possibly a Warlock that uses Con as a secondary stat).

Anyway, just my quick thoughts.

- Dreamcrusher.

Xallace
2010-01-20, 12:08 PM
Maybe... Revenant (Human Soul), Half-Vampire Heritage feat, fighter. Take Improved Grab, Garrote Training, and keep your Strength and Constitution high. Take the one Revenant feat that gets rid of your need to eat/sleep/breath, take extra Garrote feats and fill in some space with any attractive Heritage feats. Enhance your Garrote with radiance of some sort, see what other undead-hunting tactics are available to you (Zombie Veteran?). You now have a vampire that strangles other vampires to death!


Edit: Well, if we're going ranged...
Ranger, archery-focused. Train yourself in Nature and take the Alchemy feat. Keep a quiver of pre-made alchemically-enchanced arrows with you! If you go drow, you could make it a hand crossbow, and keep alchemical bolts as an "alchemy gun." I'd call it "the Flamel," personally.

Hzurr
2010-01-20, 12:37 PM
Maybe... Revenant (Human Soul), Half-Vampire Heritage feat, fighter. Take Improved Grab, Garrote Training, and keep your Strength and Constitution high. Take the one Revenant feat that gets rid of your need to eat/sleep/breath, take extra Garrote feats and fill in some space with any attractive Heritage feats. Enhance your Garrote with radiance of some sort, see what other undead-hunting tactics are available to you (Zombie Veteran?). You now have a vampire that strangles other vampires to death!

o_0


oh my...

Yakk
2010-01-20, 01:01 PM
Hi, I'm the DM (aka "Dreamcrusher")

A few thoughts:

- Bugbear is still an option (he'll just have to use normal sized weapons)
- We've houseruled in that everyone gets one of the "expertise" feats for free (weapon expertise, implement expertise, etc.), as well as paragon defenses.
Bah. If you give away one, give away as many as they want to have.

- Alex the Bard is a changling(although I don't think anyone knows that IC), MC rogue, and is playing the ranged bard build (he has the paragon path where you use a bow as your implement).
*nod*, that is some ranged damage, which the party is short of.

- As far as optimization goes, the only highly optimized character is the barbarian. The artificer is well built, but not always played as effectively as he could be. The wizard is a very straightforward build, but is played well. The paladin is purely average. The bard is oddly built, but is played well.
So no need for serious cheese. Good!

I find optimisation is more fun if you take a strange character concept and tweak it up to playable.

- As far as combat/RP balance goes, we've been a bit more combat heavy in the past, although we're moving away from that a little bit (but there will still be a decent amount).
There is non-combat outside of RP as well to deal with.

I was thinking of classes like Assassin, or hybrid Rogue|Warlocks, which have some fun stealth abilities. (Ie, Rogue with Shadow Walk and Fleeting Ghost= basically invisibility at-will all-day)

A Warlock | Rogue who uses Daggers as implements, Shadow Walk and Fleeting Ghost to maintain constant stealth. . .

Asbestos
2010-01-20, 01:10 PM
or hybrid Rogue|Warlocks, which have some fun stealth abilities. (Ie, Rogue with Shadow Walk and Fleeting Ghost= basically invisibility at-will all-day)

A Warlock | Rogue who uses Daggers as implements, Shadow Walk and Fleeting Ghost to maintain constant stealth. . .

RAW that works, but the bit in Arcane Power that describes how Shadow Walk actually grants concealment makes it seem that with RAI you can't use it for real invisibility.

Sir Homeslice
2010-01-20, 06:55 PM
Sir Homeslice

Human Great Weapon Fighter/Kensai
STR 23
CON 13
DEX 15
INT 9
WIS 13
CHA 11

Fullblade, Bloodcut Hide armor, Circlet of Authority

After taking too many hits to the head, Sir Homeslice believes he is a paladin of the might god Zarus. He doesn't know who Zarus is and believes all his powers are in the form of kicking butt goodness. Think Minsc meets Gunnery Sergeant Hartman with a religious conviction, but he cares nothing about other peoples religions (and doesn't know about his own, makes things up). He is a megalomaniac too, and believes the party (and he is of course their leader) has to follow his plans. Gets angry and threatens with Zarus smiting when they wont. Take student of battle so you can yell at them and they get better (proving that his god is inspiring).

I feel honored. Kind of.

LibraryOgre
2010-01-20, 11:37 PM
- Bugbear is still an option (he'll just have to use normal sized weapons)

"You can have a sundae, but you don't get a cherry."
"Then it isn't really a sundae, is it?"


- Gnomes are...rare in our campaign world, but then again so are PCs, so gnome is still an option

Ah. So, you're gonna let Optimus wander off to find them gnomes, then let a gnome into the party.

Is it any wonder I call you Dream-Crusher?

I may bring back that Deva Warlock concept, if I can figure out how not to make him a villain (you know, with his Star Pact and desire to destroy the Prime to end the cycle of reincarnation).

Asbestos
2010-01-20, 11:50 PM
You could also go Duegar Infernal Warlock (and hope that Hzurr allows Duegar to use Pact Hammers) and be a ranged striker/melee defender mix that can shoot beard quills at people. Would make for interesting conversations with the actual party Dwarf, possibly about who has the superior beard.

LibraryOgre
2010-01-20, 11:52 PM
You could also go Duegar Infernal Warlock (and hope that Hzurr allows Duegar to use Pact Hammers) and be a ranged striker/melee defender mix that can shoot beard quills at people. Would make for interesting conversations with the actual party Dwarf, possibly about who has the superior beard.

Oooooooh. I like.

Tehnar
2010-01-21, 06:28 AM
@Sir Homeslice: Sorry, when I was trying to come up with a name for this character, that name just popped in my head. When I posted it I didn't think it was a posters name, though it was somehow too familiar. I'm sorry, I will change it if you wish.

Hzurr
2010-01-21, 11:14 AM
You could also go Duegar Infernal Warlock (and hope that Hzurr allows Duegar to use Pact Hammers) and be a ranged striker/melee defender mix that can shoot beard quills at people. Would make for interesting conversations with the actual party Dwarf, possibly about who has the superior beard.

After every meal: "Anyone need a toothpick?

Thajocoth
2010-01-21, 02:59 PM
Allowing Bugbears, but taking away Large weapons...

Bugbears get: +2 Dex/Str, Low-light, Goblin, +2 Intimidate/Stealth, Predatory Eye, No feat options and Large Weapons.

Other races get: +2 to 2 specific ability scores, usually a bonus language, +2 to 2 specific skills, An encounter power, feat options and something else (usually 2 or more unique racial traits).

A Half-Orc, for example, is very similar to a Bugbear stat-wise, but their "something else" is: Temp hp when bloodied, +2 speed when charging.

Also, don't forget that a lot of races have special feats that boost their power with weapons. Dwarven Weapon Prof - For a single feat, you have access to the Mordenkrad AND a damage bonus with it. Goliath Greatweapon Prowess, Eladrin Soldier, Drow and Halflings have one each as well.

So the Bugbear's Large Weapon is the equivalent of a feat and takes the place of what's usually 2 or more unique racial traits.


So removing Large Weapons but allowing Bugbears anyway is allowing somebody to purposely make a character that, even in an unoptimized campaign, will be so ineffective that the person will not have fun playing them.

NPCMook
2010-01-21, 05:27 PM
Allowing Bugbears, but taking away Large weapons...

Bugbears get: +2 Dex/Str, Low-light, Goblin, +2 Intimidate/Stealth, Predatory Eye, No feat options and Large Weapons.

Other races get: +2 to 2 specific ability scores, usually a bonus language, +2 to 2 specific skills, An encounter power, feat options and something else (usually 2 or more unique racial traits).

A Half-Orc, for example, is very similar to a Bugbear stat-wise, but their "something else" is: Temp hp when bloodied, +2 speed when charging.

Also, don't forget that a lot of races have special feats that boost their power with weapons. Dwarven Weapon Prof - For a single feat, you have access to the Mordenkrad AND a damage bonus with it. Goliath Greatweapon Prowess, Eladrin Soldier, Drow and Halflings have one each as well.

So the Bugbear's Large Weapon is the equivalent of a feat and takes the place of what's usually 2 or more unique racial traits.


So removing Large Weapons but allowing Bugbears anyway is allowing somebody to purposely make a character that, even in an unoptimized campaign, will be so ineffective that the person will not have fun playing them.

Except Oversized weapon is better than 2 or more unique racial traits.

Thajocoth
2010-01-22, 02:28 AM
Except Oversized weapon is better than 2 or more unique racial traits.

That depends on which races you compare to. It isn't greater than what an Elf gets.

Predatory Eye - Elven Accuracy
Str/Dex - Wis/Dex
Goblin - Elven
Intimidate/Stealth - Nature/Perception

What's left?

For the Bugbear, only Oversized. For the Elf, Elven Weapon Prof, Group-Awareness, Wild step, +1 speed, and the ability to take Elf-specific feats (noted because Bugbears don't have racial feats). So for Oversized to be overpowered, it must be better than the combination of all those abilities.

Oversized is roughly equivalent to a racial feat (since we've seen so many that give about the same damage bonus). Racial feats do tend to be greater than normal feats, on average. So it IS quite good.

+1 speed is the equivalent of an average Paragon Tier feat, AND it stacks with taking that same feat it's equivalent to, making it better than an average Paragon Tier feat.

Bow prof is like a very low end heroic tier feat, as it normally doesn't really matter. I'm willing to drop this one out of the argument even.

Thee ability to shift in difficult terrain... I'd peg this as about equivalent to a good racial heroic tier feat as good mobility is far more essential than mere damage.

The aura of +1 perception to allies is, imo, equivalent to a high end racial paragon tier feat.

Elves also have racial feat options, which Bugbears to not.

Are you saying that an ability that is roughly the equivalent of a really good Heroic Tier feat is better than all the extra stuff an Elf gets? Or are Elves overpowered as well?

Sir Homeslice
2010-01-22, 03:42 AM
@Sir Homeslice: Sorry, when I was trying to come up with a name for this character, that name just popped in my head. When I posted it I didn't think it was a posters name, though it was somehow too familiar. I'm sorry, I will change it if you wish.

I'm perfectly fine with it, haha.

LibraryOgre
2010-01-22, 02:54 PM
Currently making a Half-Orc Ruthless Ruffian Rogue. He's pretty much a football hooligan with a mace instead of a baseball bat. I intend to describe his Furious Assault power as things like "And I headbutt him" "I Furiously Assault his crotch with my knee."

Dream-crusher wants me to name him Manchester. I'm tempted by Begby, from Trainspotting.

LibraryOgre
2010-01-25, 09:54 AM
I am proud to announce that Begby actually died in less time than it took to make him! Less than 1 round of combat!

I opened the door, got shot with two flaming arrows, then hit by a dual-blade wielding hellsword. I then more or less nova'd... I used a riposte daily when he his me, used my awesome initiative to daily again, and an action point to daily a third time. The hellsword hit me a couple times. Then got utterly SLAUGHTERED... two guys with picks opened me up with some bleeding damage and tossed me over next to a burning monster of some sort... who set me on fire and casually smacked me with his sword on the way over to pound on our artificer for the last 24pts of damage.

Dead in less than 6 seconds. Still did almost 100 points of damage (3d8 + 3d6 + 12 + 17 +3d8 + 6), but that was because I spent everything I had beating on one guy.

Indon
2010-01-25, 10:28 AM
I am proud to announce that Begby actually died in less time than it took to make him! Less than 1 round of combat!

So... your next character is going to need more hit points, then?

Hal
2010-01-25, 10:58 AM
I am proud to announce that Begby actually died in less time than it took to make him! Less than 1 round of combat!


DM didn't like the character, eh?

Hzurr
2010-01-25, 11:41 AM
DM didn't like the character, eh?

Actually, I really liked the character. The interaction between him and the other characters up to that point had been hysterical (including one of the more bizarre bluff checks that I've ever seen that really should not have worked. Stupid city guards who roll a 3 on their insight...).

In combat, however, my dice were hot. I had only expected about half the attacks to hit him, and instead he got nailed by all of them, and the damage I was rolling was near crit level. He just got stuck out in the open, where the healers couldn't get to him, and got gangbanged.

Fortunately, they work for a church, so getting him resurrected won't be too difficult.

We almost had 2 other character deaths in that fight aside from Mark Hall. It wasn't supposed to be an overly tough fight (Lvl 14 encounter against a fully rested Level 12 party), but good rolling on my part, and poor tactics/placement on the PCs part nearly made it a slaughter, because all the heavy-hitters were stuck in the back. (At one point we had a dead rogue, an unconscious bard and an unconscious artificer, and the barbarian and paladin were still at max hit points. It was weird).

flabort
2010-01-25, 11:55 AM
You know, Dream "crusher" is an inferior name to Dream "Masher", because he's still the DM in that case....:smallcool:

Ouchy, nearly a TPK, then. Yah, DM's dice rolls and crits can be nasty when he's trying NOT to kill you...

are certain playgrounder's homebrews aloud, or only wizards material? cause if you can't get a res, you'll need a new charachter...

LibraryOgre
2010-01-25, 12:11 PM
Actually, I really liked the character. The interaction between him and the other characters up to that point had been hysterical (including one of the more bizarre bluff checks that I've ever seen that really should not have worked. Stupid city guards who roll a 3 on their insight...).

To elaborate: The Dragonborn Barbarian was carrying the severely drunk eladrin-wizard-disguised-as-Indiana-Jones (whose player was not there). I decided to exercise my +17 Thievery check to do a bump-and-grab pickpocket. The barbarian turns and gets shouty. His rapid turning showers me with eladrin vomit, so I start getting shouty. The opposed intimidate checks come out. The barbarian's Paladin wife comes out, and she gets shouty, especially since she notices the Eladrin's purse stuck in the back of my belt. The Changeling Bard comes up in a guard uniform and starts demanding to know what's going on here. I twig that something's not right (since this guard has no partner), and so start getting even more shouty.

Then the real cops show up. The changeling quickly switches his rank insigna to be higher-ranked, and as the guards tell us to move along, I extemporize that we're doing street theater, and just want to collect from the audience, first.

That's when their rolls started sucking, and ours lit on fire.



In combat, however, my dice were hot. I had only expected about half the attacks to hit him, and instead he got nailed by all of them, and the damage I was rolling was near crit level. He just got stuck out in the open, where the healers couldn't get to him, and got gangbanged.

Fortunately, they work for a church, so getting him resurrected won't be too difficult.

We almost had 2 other character deaths in that fight aside from Mark Hall. It wasn't supposed to be an overly tough fight (Lvl 14 encounter against a fully rested Level 12 party), but good rolling on my part, and poor tactics/placement on the PCs part nearly made it a slaughter, because all the heavy-hitters were stuck in the back. (At one point we had a dead rogue, an unconscious bard and an unconscious artificer, and the barbarian and paladin were still at max hit points. It was weird).

Yeah... the artificer had problems because he was convinced that someone needed to be outside the doors. The heavy, heavily locked, doors, that no one would be able to get through UNTIL HE BLEW A HOLE IN THEM.

That boy has no sense of tactics.

DSCrankshaw
2010-01-25, 12:28 PM
Go Changeling Assassin, but tell the rest of the party that you're human. Create a dummy character sheet which gets all your stats right, but says that you're human. The math will be off, but they'll have to look closely to realize that. For added fun, have the human disguise be a different gender than the actual character.

Of course, with another Changeling in the party, this isn't nearly as unique as it would be otherwise.

Asbestos
2010-01-25, 06:04 PM
Currently making a Half-Orc Ruthless Ruffian Rogue. He's pretty much a football hooligan with a mace instead of a baseball bat. I intend to describe his Furious Assault power as things like "And I headbutt him" "I Furiously Assault his crotch with my knee."

Dream-crusher wants me to name him Manchester. I'm tempted by Begby, from Trainspotting.

Man, was really hoping that Quillbeard the Infernal Hammerlock Duergar would be a contender. Though, now that Begby is dead...

Susano-wo
2010-01-25, 10:11 PM
"I may bring back that Deva Warlock concept, if I can figure out how not to make him a villain (you know, with his Star Pact and desire to destroy the Prime to end the cycle of reincarnation)."

Well, you could just keep this part a secret :P
man that quote made me smile ^ ^

I'm in a campaign that has an Avenger. I'm playing a Barbarian, and every time he gets to freakin re-roll I get class-envy :P Also, we have a Darkpact Warlock who is abusing Dark Spiral Aura with the DM's ruling that he can choose not to rest, even if the rest of us are. So he has on a couple of occasions gotten 10dice or so of interrupt damage (usually triggered by actually entering into melee and provoking OA (>.<))
...though it was ncessary last time. Boss monsters have retarded HP totals! (we beat him eventually by the Avenger's awesome and highly improbable plan: Swordmage Lightning Lures him to point A, Avenger uses an ability that pulls him to Avenger, who is standing by a roaring fireplace, and I bull-rush him in. (sadly, I failed, but the avenger succeeded...with a 19 that barely made it only because he charged!) Then we boxed him in and took him out ^ ^ Many a round there was only the fire and the avenger that damaged him... >.>)

Asbestos
2010-01-25, 10:18 PM
How does he survive not taking short rests (I'm assuming he does take the extended rests). With his 2nd wind never recharging, his death saving throws never resetting, and encounter powers not coming back... hoarding DSA points doesn't seem worth it.

Susano-wo
2010-01-26, 05:15 PM
touse a little final fantasy XI humor...
::Ranger:: ::back row:: ::please::

he has gotten hit a few times, but we have two other DD's, and especially since by Barbarian charges ridiculously foolishly into combat (session before last he started a contest with his adopted sister that involved him getting the farthest into the enemy lines. His first turn (he got init) was Combat Sprint-->move action through enemies' threatened areas-->Howling Strike the furthest back guy he could reach.)...where was I? Oh yeah, between the way he hangs back 90% of the time (the other 10% is when he needs to move to curse something else >.>), he stays alive quite a bit.