Your favorite game mechanic? [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

Zaq

2010-01-19, 08:48 PM

I forgot to mention the King Torg ("All Hail King Torg!") and Cowardice rules from Kobolds Ate My Baby.

For those who haven't played, you are a Kobold and your God hates you and wants you to die. Thus, anytime someone says King Torg's ("All Hail King Torg!") name, anyone who doesn't shout "All Hail King Torg!" must roll on the Kobold Horrible Death Check table and risk being slain by a mixed metaphor. The same happens if a Kobold tries to think too intelligently, or attempts to preserve its own life, such as by looking both ways crossing the street.

I too, am fond of the King Torg (ALL HAIL KING TORG!) rule, but I'm especially fond of the Bark Like a Kobold rule.

Basically, once per turn, if you want to do something that's a little bit out of reach, you can bark like a kobold and make it one die easier (you're rolling xd6 and trying to roll low, so if you bark, you roll (x-1)d6.). The catch? You, the player, have to actually get up and bark. Out loud. And it has to be better (as judged by the fickle and malicious GM Mayor) than the last time someone barked. (KAMB is big on physical action on the player's part... for example, all spells have somatic components that the player has to do. It's fun.)

Oh, and if you've played more than once or twice? Don't bother with the Horrible Death table. You can get WAY more mileage out of thinking up some really appropriate smite on the spot.

I loves me some Kobolds Ate My Baby. Maybe I'll try to round up a group this week.

Satyr

2010-01-20, 03:03 AM

There are five rule mechanisms I really have started to like. If I start to feel like an evil genius expereimenting on building the perfect RPG creature out of the descretated bodies of other games, these four are the basics I would use, because they are the best out there.

The madness rules from Unknown Armies. Basically, every character can gain madness in several categories (Violence, Unnatural, Helplessness, Isolation, and Self, the last one dealing with identity crises) and whenever the character suffer from stress in one of these regards, he can either harden up in this regard or become more and more sensible - which is both depicted as not that much of a good idea. A character that has seen so many mutilated bodies that he just doesn't care anymore is not exactly a very sane person either. The system is simple, very effective and grants a feeling of continuous and plausibility of the character development (which is often confused with character improvement, but really is something really different).
There aren't so many good rules for the sanity and psychological condition of characters out there, and none of it can hope to compete with this. The merits of this system becomes especially clear when compared to the crappy system which is so central in Call of Cthulluh.

The Damage and Hit Location System from HârnMaster. Yes, the hit locations are very detailed and yes, they might be overtly so. On the other hand, these are perhaps the cruelest rules for injuries out there, because the system refuses to fall for the stupifying but all too common abstraction. There are no crouches like hit points and nobody will ever die from hundreds of paper cuts. Every injury matters, though, every injury hurts and even though it gives a very dense feeling of imminent danger whenever you are in a fight, it is actually hard to kill somebody quickly - it is much more likely that somebody is injured and cannot keep standing anymore than that he just drops dead (he is likely to slowly bleed to death then). The system is pretty much the complimentary opposite to fights in D20 - they are intense, they are realistic and most importantly, they are fun, even though they are also a very good advice to try to avoid combats.

The Life Path character background creation from Artesia -The Known World or the Fuzion games in general. People are the product of their environment, and the same is true for fictional characters. This system of character creation forms the resulting characters along the lines of their vita. The characters produced in this way have a very organic feeling and have some kind of character background by default and they have a random and unpredictable element to them that makes the whole character creation more interesting and turns it from a tedious chore before the real game in some kind of fun activity.

The Point-Buy system from Gurps. Often copied and ripped off, never ever achieved. It is simple, it is effective, it is well balanced. This one is so basic in modern RPGs that I don't think it needs much of an explanation. Gurps has always been the Moon Landing compared to the D&D sputnik.
The one thing that is worth mentioning is yes, I think that a system where characters are build on a CP-buy system and then gain additional arbitrary traits based on a Fuzion-style lifepath system would be very close to the optimum, granting players a vast influence on their character without any relics like classes or levels, and still offer a form of unpredictability and surprise to the character. It even breaks up the one large problem of point-buy systems, namely the lack of different competences between player characters (which seems nice, but is so unrealistic that it hurts the feeling of verisimilitude and thus, a small gap in power is usually preferable to exact equal opportunity characters) without creating vast abysses between characters of varying niches. So, a 90% point buy, 10% random character creation would be just awesome.

The path/book magic system from Gurps: Thaumaturgy. Magic that has its connections to real world "magic" traditions has a more substantial feeling than the often completely unrelated and random magic systems which are all so common despite of their mediocrity. The fact that the system works, is not terrible unbalanced by default, offers a good skeleton of abilities and can be almost endlessly expanded by creative players or gamemasters without needing to do much work is just the standard amount of good work you can expect from a Gurps book, but this one is fun. It is one of the few systems where I actually would like to play a spellcaster (which almost never happens), and, which is more important, its structure makes sense. Just to emphasize it: It is a magic system that is very plausible and thus make it very simple to learn and to use in game. The system is generic enough to fit into every setting that includes magic, and it is specific enough to be interesting while doing so.
Basically, all forms of magic are divided into certain paths (Path of the Elements, Path of Spirits, Path of Luck etc.) or books (yes, these are magical books, like the Necronomicon, the Scrolls of Toth, the Great Book of Gummi...) which are all represented through a certain skill. These skills are the general knowledge about the basics of this form of magic; all rituals (spells almost always take the form of rituals, even when these rituals are very brief) default from the main skill, but can be improved individually. Creating new paths or especially books is a trivial task; creating new rituals is even simpler (rule-wise; depending on the setting, the discovery of a new ritual can be treated as an absolute breakthrough, if you want to).

Yes, I want a game that combines all these traits.

Longcat

2010-01-20, 03:36 AM

Personally, I like the Edge mechanic in Shadowrun. It basically allows you to re-roll or get bonus dice on checks.

Kiero

2010-01-20, 06:29 AM

FATE 3.0's Aspects. Concrete, relevant way of making stuff players care about matter.

bosssmiley

2010-01-20, 07:02 AM

I forgot to mention the King Torg ("All Hail King Torg!") and Cowardice rules from Kobolds Ate My Baby.

"ALL HAIL KING TORG!"

The Iaijutsu duelling rules from L5R. You bid against one another for the right to strike first, adding raises to the TN to gain additional damage. Lots of rapid-fire calculation and a hefty dose of bluffing goes on. It's like poker with dice.

Optimystik

2010-01-20, 08:19 AM

At-wills. That is all.

It's my favorite phrase in any rpg.

valadil

2010-01-20, 09:48 AM

Dice pools. They're a simple and elegant way for characters to multitask and they give you choices to make each turn. As implemented in shadowrun (probably 3rd ed, but I don't own the books so that's a guess) you have a number of dice that can be used in each round of combat wherever you like. They can go towards making sure your attack hits. Or they can add to its damage to pierce DR. Or you can save them to dodge. Or whatever else you can think of. How you split up these dice will (usually) change every turn, so you've always got something to think about, but it's a simple enough mechanic that non gamers can understand it too.

I'd love to see this in D&D. Oh wait, I have. Check out Codex Martialis for an implementation.

SurlySeraph

2010-01-20, 11:52 AM

The initiative system from Twilight 2013. How well you roll determines both when you act and how many actions you can take. Actions are simultaneously resolved when they happen in game time, so you can choose to interrupt enemy actions as soon as they start them if you can act at that point. And, though I may not have explained it clearly, it's really easy to understand.

TW2013 also has great injury and range systems. I love everything about it except the base mechanic, which is awkward and time-consuming.

infinitypanda

2010-01-20, 12:09 PM

Branching out to tabletop wargames here, I like how Infinity handles opposed checks. Infinity is a roll-under game, so how do you tell who wins an opposed check? Whoever beat their target number by the most? It slows down the game a bit, but it's the only way to go, right? Nope! Blackjack rules. Whoever rolls highest without going over wins, which is a rather elegant solution (more so than CoC's Opposed Actions table, at the very least). Now that I write it down it sounds like kind of a stupid thing to put in a favorite mechanic thread, but I really never thought of using Blackjack rules for rolling before.

@SurlySeraph: what's the core mechanic? Sounds like it's not dice pool or d20+mods.

Kurald Galain

2010-01-20, 12:11 PM

I forgot to mention the King Torg ("All Hail King Torg!") and Cowardice rules from Kobolds Ate My Baby.

Praise The Computer!

...what? :smalltongue:

infinitypanda

2010-01-20, 12:13 PM

Don't you dare, Kurald. Nothing derails a thread like Paranoia.

No, friend Computer! Of course I love praising you! I would never even dream of trying to steer the conversation away from you. I only did it to find out which commie mutant traitors here would go along with it.

SurlySeraph

2010-01-20, 12:33 PM

@SurlySeraph: what's the core mechanic? Sounds like it's not dice pool or d20+mods.

It's skill-based; you try to roll under your ranks in whatever ability score is relevant to the task. For example, to recognize a particular kind of rifle you would try to roll under Education using your Longarm skill, and to fire a rifle you would try to roll under Coordination using your Longarm skill. But your skill is nor a static bonus. Depending on how many ranks you have in the skill in question, you roll a certain number of d20s (usually between 2 and 6) and take the lowest. The margin of success or failure is important, bonuses and penalties stack weirdly and can be hard to keep track of, if you're using a skill you're untrained in you roll 2d20 and take the highest, if you have Natural Talent for a skill you roll a different number of d20s when you have a given number of ranks in that skill than normal, and it's all very complicated.

I briefly attempted to convert it to d20-based, but quickly realized that I don't have a good enough understanding of probability and statistics to do so without spending huge amounts of time generating tables of possible outcomes and trying to find the nearest d20+bonuses equivalents.

infinitypanda

2010-01-20, 01:13 PM

Ugh. Seems especially nasty to me, on account of how I just praised Infinity for how simple its core mechanic is.

taltamir

2010-01-20, 01:24 PM

my favorite game mechanics are:

CRPG: infinite storage... running back and forth to town to sell crap is tedious to the extreme

D&D: Attack of Opportunity, it lets tanks "block the way" to weaker characters. You can still "push through" around them if you are willing to take the hits... and I like it so much more then an aggro button and running through enemies.

Dimers

2010-01-20, 04:05 PM

What I was going to say as soon as I saw the topic line was "I love the Deadlands initiative system!" ... ninja'd by OP. :smallsmile:

Another mechanical concept I really enjoy is "Natural Aptitude", from some very old version of Mechwarrior. Just like GURPS is mostly 3d6 rolls, Mechwarrior is 2d6 rolls; Natural Aptitude lets you pick one skill for which you roll 3d6 and take the best two. You can still fail rolls, but you're more likely to succeed, more likely to crit, and less likely to fumble. I've introduced the idea into GURPS as an Advantage, with character-point cost based on the skill's difficulty and importance (whether or not it could have life-saving impact in reasonable situations).

EDIT: Sinfire Titan, would you mind putting that pic behind a spoiler? It gives my screen a horizontal scrollbar.

Bibliomancer

2010-01-20, 04:19 PM

I'd have to second action points, especially when combined with Action Surge to allow a wizard to cast two spells in one round without Quicken, as well as Heroic Metamagic, which lets you convert action points to metamagic, allowing a 6th level wizard to cast 3 fireballs in one round for 6 action points, for a simple example. Great for ambushes.

Rixx

2010-01-20, 04:20 PM

I love Pathfinder's CMB/CMD system. One roll, and PLINK! You're disarmed!

Glyde

2010-01-20, 04:20 PM

If you fall into lava you die. No save.

Satyr

2010-01-20, 04:21 PM

The first two editions of the Mechwarrior RPG were neatly designed games that worked very well, and were fully compatible with the Battletech board game. I liked that game. The third edition is a terrible game and works on a complete different mechanism than the board game it is based upon.

Twilight 2013 really looks like an interesting idea, though. Can you tell more about it?

truemane

2010-01-20, 04:38 PM

My very favourite mechanic of all time is the Scale rules from the old WEG Star Wars RPG. In any WEG game you roll d6's, the more the better. You add 'em up and the total is your roll. The higher you roll, the better you do.

So, you have a table. And on it are the size scales: Person, Speeder, Walker, Starship, Capital Ship, Death Star. I think that's it. And as a smaller size, you get a die CAP to damage larger scales but a die MINIUM to hit them. And vice versa. Larger have die minimums to damage but die caps to hit. So, the smaller it is, the harder it is to hit it but the harder you hit it. The larger, the easier to hit but the harder to damage.

So the practical effect is that, if you're a speeder, you can't MISS a Capital Ship, but you can't damage it either. And if you're a Death Star, you can't even aim at anything smaller than a Capital Ship, but you do HUGE damage.

It was (and is) the single most elegant mechanical rule I've ever seen, allowing the infinite size of the Star Wars Universe to co-exist with a single table without the necessity of the Death Star having 486,000,000,000 D6 Body.

Second is the Thematic Battery Rules from the indie game "Full Llight, Full Steam!" You define your character in terms of Thematic Batteries (Intrepid Explorer or Strident Atheist or Zealous Academic or whatever) and you can use them to take a penalty in order to 'Charge' your batteries. And then you expend the charge to get a bonus on any action. So one day you use 'Straight Talker' to take a social penalty at an Upper Class Ball and the next day you use it to get a bonus to intimidate a shopkeeper.

It's a way for your character's most fundamental traits to matter in the game in a direct and salient fashion. The whole game is full of stuff like that, actually.

Susano-wo

2010-01-20, 05:45 PM

I gotta go with Action points. Nothing is more frustrating that a miss in a really crucial situation, or one that was set up to be so cool with a hit, only to miss. Also, when GM's are using fumble rules. God I hate fumble rules for 90% of all situations.

Though point 1 on Satyr's post sounds freakin awesome

SurlySeraph

2010-01-20, 05:57 PM

Twilight 2013 really looks like an interesting idea, though. Can you tell more about it?

It takes place after a nuclear war in 2012. This isn't Fallout or Gamma World, though; it's gritty, very simulationist, and military-oriented. It's a successor to Twilight 2000, a game from the mid-80s, in which you generally played as survivors of American forces in Europe after a nuclear war with Russia. Twilight 2013 is more focused on individuals and has a lot more support for individuals and international forces; it starts with an enormous not-particularly-plausible lore section explaining what the war did to most parts of the world. Since what happened to, say, Berlin has absolutely no mechanical importance, that section can be freely ignored.

Character generation is by a lifepath system; most of the options are military, but there are options for pretty much anything. In any case, the last year of your lifepath is the Last Year, for which you have to take a special apocalypse-surviving path (Urban Survival, Rural Survival, Twilight Warfare, and I think one other possibility) instead of anything else.There are... I think 8 ability scores, I don't remember exactly, plus skills, advantages and disadvantages (pretty much like feats and flaws). There's a pretty thorough list of possible equipment, and characters are allowed to start with whatever they can carry while marching (there are different levels of encumberance). The book adds that if your players decide to start with a lot of dense high-value stuff like gold or antibiotics instead of weapons and water filters thinking they can get rich by trading, you can just start them out in the middle of the wilderness.

Damage is a wound track system, tracking each limb, torso, and head independently.

Morale is quite important, there's a stat (Courage Under Fire, or CUF) just for how well you can manage yourself in combat.

There are rules for crafting, repairing, equipment degradation, scavenging for food, etc. They are complicated. They are also beautiful. You have options, not just a Survival check. You can be more specialized in cities or the wilderness. You can farm, rebuild villages, and all kinds of things. I love these rules.

Anyway, there's a review of it here (http://www.rpg.net/reviews/archive/14/14150.phtml) that you might find helpful.

Not to keep rambling off-topic, but in a lot of ways I think Twilight 2013 would work better for a videogame - something along the lines of Nethack or Dwarf Fortress -than a tabletop game. Something that allows all the open-world sandbox simulation that TW2013 is made for without taking up so much time and effort for the players to calculate.

Back on-topic but still rambling about TW2013, it also has a great social interaction system. You can substitute your reputation bonus for your social skills in certain situations. You may not have much talent at intimidating people, but if everyone refers to you as "That guy who killed all those Spetsnaz in Belgrade" you can be good at scaring people anyway.

Kiero

2010-01-20, 06:43 PM

Second is the Thematic Battery Rules from the indie game "Full Llight, Full Steam!" You define your character in terms of Thematic Batteries (Intrepid Explorer or Strident Atheist or Zealous Academic or whatever) and you can use them to take a penalty in order to 'Charge' your batteries. And then you expend the charge to get a bonus on any action. So one day you use 'Straight Talker' to take a social penalty at an Upper Class Ball and the next day you use it to get a bonus to intimidate a shopkeeper.

It's a way for your character's most fundamental traits to matter in the game in a direct and salient fashion. The whole game is full of stuff like that, actually.

Sounds a lot like Aspects. Although with Aspects any time the GM calls on them to penalise the character, you get a Fate Point, and whenever you want to use them to your advantage, they cost you a Fate Point.

Hunter Noventa

2010-01-20, 06:50 PM

While the system itself needs work, the hit location mechanic for Dark Heresy is terribly elegant in it's simplicity. It's all d100 based, you roll under your skill to hit. Then you reverse the number to see where you hit. It's just...simple.

Joel Shempert

2010-01-21, 01:18 AM

All hail King Torg!

Man, that Kobolds Ate My Baby! stuff has got me floored. I'm gonna have to check that out!

The system is simple, very effective and grants a feeling of continuous and plausibility of the character development (which is often confused with character improvement, but really is something really different).

Man, this bit was brilliant. That's a distinction I'd like to see more often. Those madness rules are made of win. They give you a totally meaningful and juicy choice in how your character changes.

So, I'm a longtime Order of the Stick and Erfworld reader, but I finally just registered for the forum. This seemed like a fun thread to start with. Here's a few of my favorite mechanics:

Keys, from the Creative Commons fantasy game The Shadow of Yesterday (http://tsoy.crngames.com/), and its generic-ruleset offspring, the Solar System (http://www.arkenstonepublishing.net/solarsystem). Keys are like a Build Your Own XP Awards kit. You can have just one, but also buy them with Advancement points. Each one (and you can write your own) gives 2-3 parameters where you'll gain XP, like Key of the Coward: Gain 1 XP when you avoid a fight, gain 3 XP when you solve a problem without fighting. Or Key of Faith: 1XP for defending your religion to others, 2XP for converting someone to your faith, 5XP for defending your faith at grave danger. It really helps your actions matter to the story, 'cause you can get powerful just by "doing your thing," and helps express who your character is in a consequential way. Oh, and each key has a Buyoff--a condition under which you can renounce the Key forever, and get a big wad of XP to spend all at once, including on new keys. My favorite example is the end of Star Wars: a New Hope--Han Solo renounces Key of the Mercenary, and gains the Key of Friendship (or whatever), plus a fat XP surplus to blast Vader and save Luke's bacon!

Roll-then-assign dice pools, from Dogs in the Vineyard (http://www.lumpley.com/dogs.html). When you get in a conflict of any kind in Dogs, you roll a big pile of dice for the attributes and traits you're bringing to the clash. Then you take turns, raising and seeing in a pseudo-Poker fashion, pushing two dice at the opponent, and making him match your total with his dice. If you can match the other guy's attack with a few dice it's good, if you need to use a lot of dice (say, a pile of 1s and 2s to match a 6 and an 8), then you're "taking the blow", suffering injury or other forms of Fallout. The strategy comes when you look at the total spread of your dice and decide whether to use up your little numbers to get battered around, saving your big rolls for an attack, or vice versa, or what. And it really puts pressure to put more and more on the line, for instance pulling a gun to get more dice. That gives you the choice to either Give because you don't want the hurt or you're unwilling to hurt others, or stick it out and let things get messy. A great mix of strategy, luck, and emotional impact!

this has been touched on, but Lifepaths! I love 'em. Folks have mentioned Twilight 2013 and Artesia, but they're also found in Burning Wheel (http://www.burningwheel.org/?page_id=2) (though not Mouse Guard) and of course waaay back in Traveler. What I love about them is the sense they give you of your character really having a life, and having a place in a community. That kind of grounding adds dimension and gives a hint of what (and who) this person might love, hate, die for, and otherwise care about. By the time I finish creating a Lifepath character, I already feel like I know them!

I just realized I ended every item with an exclamation mark. I must be excited! :)

Peace,
-Joel

Akal Saris

2010-01-21, 02:27 AM

Unfortunately I don't stray far away enough from d20 games to have played with a lot of these awesome ideas.

But as far as d20 mechanics go, my favorite has been the regency system in the 2E Birthright campaign setting. It's got some kinks, but the basic idea is that the system allows the PCs to rule a kingdom. What I really like is that they earn regency points every few sessions, which they can then use to bid against each other or against NPCs to perform major actions, with the regency bid acting as a positive or negative modifier to the die roll for success. Bidding can get pretty intense in some of the games we've had :)

alchemyprime

2010-01-21, 03:06 AM

Hrm... I do like the "Core Mechanic" feel of 3.5 and 4e. I like the three teired powers of 4e. I like the class progression of 3.5

But perhaps my favorite would be the dice that most White Wolf games use.

Roll Xd10, where X = Skills + Ability. If you roll a 10, you get a bonus roll.

Very nice, clean and random.

Hawriel

2010-01-21, 03:43 AM

I love Pathfinder's CMB/CMD system. One roll, and PLINK! You're disarmed!

Got that right. Sence my group switched to Pathfinder are melee combat has had alot more variety. We attempt and pull off more grapple, sweeps (trip :smallmad:), and disarms than we ever did in 3.5.

I really like West End games D6 system. Simple and flexable.

Battletech has my favorite wargame rules.

And the most unique system was an RPG I played once or twice a number of years ago. I think it was called asylum. The idea was that the world created a very large asylum, ala excape from new york. It didnt use dice but colored marbles. yes we lost afew.

I'll tos in a card game as well. I really like Rage. White Wolf's warewolf card game.

Satyr

2010-01-21, 04:54 AM

<lots about Twilight 2013>

Thanks, that sounds interesting. Mostly military games aren't really my favorite, but the system seems interesting.

Man, this bit was brilliant. That's a distinction I'd like to see more often. Those madness rules are made of win. They give you a totally meaningful and juicy choice in how your character changes.

It is not so much choice, but a result of the checks you roll; you are effectively formed by your experiences. People ususally do not choose to become terrified by cars or develop a strong agoraphobia and fear of personal contact. That happens to you. Anxiety disorders are not an alternative lifestyle. I like this in a game. I like it when something completely unpredictable can totally screw you over, or change your character's orientation and perspective on the world. Yes, this takes away a part of the character control of the player, but on the other hand, it usually creates more interesting characters, not only for the whole group but also for the player in question.

Keys, from the Creative Commons fantasy game The Shadow of Yesterday, and its generic-ruleset offspring, the Solar System. Keys are like a Build Your Own XP Awards kit. You can have just one, but also buy them with Advancement points

I had forgotten about the keys. Generally speaking, TSOY was way too much focused on a purely narrative approach for my taste, up to the point where it undermined the system's reliability, but the key part was indeed very good.

Damn. Since yesterday, I want to have a chimera RPG with my favorite elements.

Kiero

2010-01-21, 05:31 AM

I had forgotten about the keys. Generally speaking, TSOY was way too much focused on a purely narrative approach for my taste, up to the point where it undermined the system's reliability, but the key part was indeed very good.

That's the whole point of Keys, that the things players choose as being important to them matter more than the mechanics.

dsmiles

2010-01-21, 05:39 AM

Personally, HOL (the entire game) is my favorite game mechanic. Especially the character creation process (your character can die before they even get created).

BooNL

2010-01-21, 05:45 AM

Funny how only one person mentioned a 3.5 aspect as their favourite...

In any case: SW Saga, the combat rules are pretty streamlined. I really love the leveling system. Basically, every character will always be useful and because damage and saves are based partly on CL, you will always almost do at least a bit of damage.

Also, the fact that you can create just about any type of character you can come up with using only 5 base classes is pretty cool.

Moak

2010-01-21, 06:03 AM

Cyberpunk2020 background creation rules. Actually,it was the only thing that I liked of it.

Incarnum.

3/3.5 magic weapon/armor "bonus"...you know,that ability is +x,that other one...let's add togheter up to 10.

Incarnum.

The foolish maddness about the inexistence of rules about single-hit fire in AMMO (after the manual say everywhere that they exist) and the simply "to-hit" system.

The strange scaling way ability works in a strange gdr I've played recently (I don't remember the name...was about some people inside bubbles under the planet and they way out...you rolled increasing number of dice depending on the level of you ability...like 1d20+2d8+1d4 eccecc...and you had kharma,I think)

Satyr

2010-01-21, 07:21 AM

That's the whole point of Keys, that the things players choose as being important to them matter more than the mechanics.
Yes, I know. But it is usually not very compatible with my personal gaming philosophy, which emphasizes mostly on verisimilitude and I am usually very willing to sacrifice any player character if I think that otherwise the game's credibility is hurt.
So, while I like the idea that playing your character's traits, and flaws brings you further, I don't like the idea of putting the player's choice before the plausibility of the gaming worlds; the way I see it, limiting one player in his choices might be bad for that player, but sacrificing the gaming world's credibility hurts the game as a whole and is therefore bad for everyone - including the player who would otherwise gain a small benefit.
And from this point of view, The Shadow of Yesterday seems like an innovative, but not a very enjoyable game (the same is true for the Pool, Dogs in the Vinyard and the other, very forge-heavy narrative games. I have particularly issues with Dogs in the Vinyard, but these are more related to the game's fluff, not the mechanics). The Keys are a good idea though, even though I would probably include more than one per character, and would get rid of the idea that you can axe them every time you want, or chose every character tree just because you want it.

Funny how only one person mentioned a 3.5 aspect as their favourite...

That's not hard to explain. D&D might be a popular game, but it sure s not very innovative, and in many parts very average or mediocre. In a way, through its popularity D&D defines the averageness benchmark of RPGs and other games are partially defined through their differences to it. And people probably going to like those mechanisms that are just different from the status quo they know, and for most people, the status quo is D&D.

Moak

2010-01-21, 08:19 AM

Funny how only one person mentioned a 3.5 aspect as their favourite...

I think is because is the "starting point" of many players. So,they take it as "the base",and don't bother to much when thinking about what's particular/favourite...

If I think that something as-is is "the base", probably I look at what is different to say what I like..

That's why I haven't "voted" for any RedBoxD&D rules...I voted for the rules that more surprised me like enanchment from that point. This even if I actualy loved the high-level play in those days....a barony,wars rules,"livello del titolo" (Title level? I don't know in english..) and what I've missed more in 3rd edition: monster xp value.

9mm

2010-01-21, 09:31 AM

Battletech Constuction rules... all of them.

Kiero

2010-01-21, 09:49 AM

Yes, I know. But it is usually not very compatible with my personal gaming philosophy, which emphasizes mostly on verisimilitude and I am usually very willing to sacrifice any player character if I think that otherwise the game's credibility is hurt.
So, while I like the idea that playing your character's traits, and flaws brings you further, I don't like the idea of putting the player's choice before the plausibility of the gaming worlds; the way I see it, limiting one player in his choices might be bad for that player, but sacrificing the gaming world's credibility hurts the game as a whole and is therefore bad for everyone - including the player who would otherwise gain a small benefit.
And from this point of view, The Shadow of Yesterday seems like an innovative, but not a very enjoyable game (the same is true for the Pool, Dogs in the Vinyard and the other, very forge-heavy narrative games. I have particularly issues with Dogs in the Vinyard, but these are more related to the game's fluff, not the mechanics). The Keys are a good idea though, even though I would probably include more than one per character, and would get rid of the idea that you can axe them every time you want, or chose every character tree just because you want it.

Do you only ever play one way?

alisbin

2010-01-21, 10:25 AM

my #1 has got to be the D&D 2E wild mage class, the mechanics fit the flavor of a fantastically fun, powerful and random caster perfectly i feel.
strong honorable mentions go to the 2E AC setup where there was an actual maximum AC you couldn't go past (yes thaco still sucked i know).
another one i really miss is the Alternity armor rules, i've always preferred armor as DR and i felt that Alternity handled it very well.

Siegel

2010-01-21, 10:36 AM

The 3d20 roll in Das Schwarze Auge / The dark eye

Incarnum

Satyr

2010-01-21, 12:03 PM

Do you only ever play one way?

No, but I prefer a certain style, and since I run most of the games I ever Participate in, I have the luxury to chose the style of the campaign, so I usually play what I want. I like to test new games, but for longer campaigns I prefer to run games in a way I like and I know I can pull off and make them as good as possible. And I find this easier when I do it my way.

starwoof

2010-01-21, 12:05 PM

I love critical hit tables. The more complex, long, convoluted, and time consuming, the better.

This is the reason I love Hackmaster so much.:smallsmile:

Sinfire Titan

2010-01-21, 12:59 PM

Funny how only one person mentioned a 3.5 aspect as their favourite...

Did you not read my post? Incarnum is 3.5.

taltamir

2010-01-21, 02:12 PM

If you fall into lava you die. No save.

technically, convection means that you should die just by being near enough the lava without touching it. And not just because of the deadly gasses, but because the temperature will cook you to death.

Kaiyanwang

2010-01-21, 02:21 PM

BECMI weapon mastery rules (those for parry and so on, black manual, the "master").

Hope I translated it well, in my books was "Padronanza delle Armi", IIRC :smalltongue:

Matthew

2010-01-21, 06:30 PM

BECMI weapon mastery rules (those for parry and so on, black manual, the "master").

Hope I translated it well, in my books was "Padronanza delle Armi", IIRC :smalltongue:

Yes, you translated it perfectly. :smallbiggrin:

Tehnar

2010-01-21, 06:43 PM

Edge from Shadowrun. A "luck" attribute that works.

The: 1d20+modifiers DnD roll. Its simple, fast and effective.

storybookknight

2010-01-21, 07:02 PM

Cyberpunk2020 background creation rules. Actually,it was the only thing that I liked of it.

The ONLY thing? Mechanically, okay, maybe. The hacking system is rubbish and totally the publisher's lame attempt to push a tabletop game. But Cyberpunk 2020 gets more and more fun to play as it gets further and further away from its inception.

30 years in the future.... the year is 2020. Everybody get your VCRs ready, because some data is going to hit the internets. Plug yourself into the grid and see the flow of all information in the world, megabytes of information moving in every second, all in a TRON-like 3D wiremesh.

It's better than the real world, after all, where gangsters are plugging hacked copies of Duke Nukem 3D IV directly into their brains and turning into gun-crazed sex fiends, where the corporation owns everything, and the only patriots left are filthy commies. (Praise Friend Computer!)

Cyberpunk is HILARIOUS.

Incidentally, some friends and I have a half-finished Savage Worlds port of Cyberpunk 2020 here (http://savagecyber.wetpaint.com/). I will totally finish it one day, I swear :smallredface:

Surprised nobody has mentioned this yet, but...

Where would we be without the plain vanilla natural 20? One of the greatest mechanical choices in 3rd edition by far.

randomhero00

2010-01-21, 07:13 PM

The crafting system from Universal Decay. On the one hand, infinite flexibility gives infinite options, but on the other hand...

well we built a deck gun (like on a Destroyer) that a character could wield in his bare hands.

It's so deliciously broken I just love the fun things we can do with it: rocket-propelled chainsaw? no problem. Shurikens and Lightning? *Yawn*

The real trick was the magical hand that shoots BEES!

That was one of those characters that will never be remembered except as the meme "BEES!"

You never built anything related to sharks with frickin' laser beams attached to their heads!? Fail fail ;P

Mathis

2010-01-21, 07:19 PM

The Fudge system. Two dices (six sided, two with a + sign, two with a - and two blank sides.) and a bucket-load of imagination and you can do anything you can ever think of.

Snails

2010-01-21, 07:20 PM

Basic Magic Resistance mechanics from Chivalry & Sorcery. Yes, they were unnecessarily complicated, but it was so beautiful that no one with a simulationist bone in their body could ever fall out of love.

Magic Item Creation rules from Chivalry & Sorcery, which employed BMR (above). This was probably the first RPG that gave PCs the opportunity to make their own stuff, with none of the cheesiness we see in every edition of D&D.

Tinydwarfman

2010-01-21, 08:23 PM

RAEP (FATAL)
Hit locations. In any game. Playing without hit location is just... bleh. I can no longer be a melee fighter in d&d.

Skill based systems. BAB just makes everyone so similar.

Homebrew for 3.5 is awesome mechanic...

Disadvantages from GURPS, gives your character real personality and a reason to do so.

storybookknight

2010-01-21, 08:25 PM

Has anyone else ever played Feng Shui?

The core setting basically = Chinese Ghost Story + Once Upon A Time In China II + Jackie Chan's Police Story + Hard Boiled + The Matrix, leavened with a heavy dose of Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure (and possibly also Bogus Journey).

No, I'm not kidding. Someone made this game.

Dice-wise it's nothing special; any given roll is simply roll 2d6, result = base trait + good D6 result - bad D6 result.

However, character creation is done by archetype. Rather than playing 'fighter' or 'rogue', a typical character might be 'the scrappy kid', 'maverick cop', or just 'the big guy'.

Also, those players' special abilities are not skills, feats, powers, abilities, or katas. They're called schticks. If the game were written today, they might be called tropes (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HomePage) instead.

Sample unique schticks: The spy can spend a luck point and convince anyone to reveal their secret plan. When used on villains, this usually involves monologueing. The Scrappy Kid can use the Home Alone defense and cause evil oni to slip on marbles, or catch a creampie to the face.

Feng Shui is also hilarious.

However, probably my favorite 'unintended consequences' mechanic is the notion of powerful Feng Shui sites. When a character is attuned to one, he gets free XP. As you know, to roleplayers, this is even better than free candy. If something ruins the Feng Shui of that site, the free XP goes away - so you can imagine that if something goes wrong, players are usually quite keen to retrieve it.

But first they have to figure out what caused it. Keep in mind, folks, that I am paraphrasing the actual core rulebook. Is it the new billboard across the street? The new paint on the side of the neighbor's house? Does the tree in the front yard have parasitic beetles? Or did a crack team of ninja interior decorators move every item in the house an inch to the left?

At this point the book actually repeats itself to make sure the reader understands. Yes, that's right, Feng Shui is a world where ninja interior decorators are a deadly menace.

I really love that game....

Joel Shempert

2010-01-21, 08:27 PM

Hi, Satyr,

It is not so much choice, but a result of the checks you roll; you are effectively formed by your experiences. People ususally do not choose to become terrified by cars or develop a strong agoraphobia and fear of personal contact. That happens to you. Anxiety disorders are not an alternative lifestyle. I like this in a game. I like it when something completely unpredictable can totally screw you over, or change your character's orientation and perspective on the world. Yes, this takes away a part of the character control of the player, but on the other hand, it usually creates more interesting characters, not only for the whole group but also for the player in question.

Maybe I should have said "interesting choice within a fruitful constraint." What I like about what you're describing is that it represents psychological trauma in a way that doesn't let the player and character off the hook, but also doesn't simply rewrite the character. You get a choice of whether to get more sensitive or harden up. And that's a pretty awesome choice.

I had forgotten about the keys. Generally speaking, TSOY was way too much focused on a purely narrative approach for my taste, up to the point where it undermined the system's reliability, but the key part was indeed very good.

Interesting. I always felt like TSoY split the difference between what you're calling "narrative approach," and a more standard-RPG approach. You've got "Skills" (Abilities) that are tied to core "stats," (Pools), there are special powers (Secrets) that are rather Feat-like, a damage track, and round-to-round combat as an option; hell, there are even Saving Throws! :smallbiggrin: But you're right, the game is focused on the PCs as Protagonists of their stories, and thus the consequences of their choices.

I was going to ask what you meant by "reliability," but I think your dialogue with other posters has clarified it for me. It never occurred to me that Keys could wreck verisimilitude, 'cause it makes sense to me that a person would be more driven to succeed and improve when they're pursuing what they truly care about. But it sounds like the sort of "verisimilitude" that I value is a bit different from yours, so that's understandable.

A guy named Bill White once adapted Keys for D&D (http://story-games.com/forums/comments.php?DiscussionID=2636&page=1#Comment_60757), using the Alignment system, so that each alignment translated into a "Norm," i.e. the Norm of the Crusader for Lawful Good, the Norm of Rebellion for Chaotic Good, and so on. I used the idea for a D&D campaign I started around that time, not for XP (overhauling the Experience system was a bit too daunting for me as a first-time DM of that ruleset), but for earning Action Points. And I tweaked it--you could earn AP for your own Alignment, or for either adjacent alignment on an alignment wheel, and each level, you check how many tics are on which--if you have more tics on an adjacent spot, your alignment shifts!

I and the players enjoyed that, both as a way of making Alignment consequential and meaningful, and as a way of basing alignment on deeds, not words--sure, you SAY you're Lawful Good, but what do you actually DO?

Peace,
-Joel

Dimers

2010-01-21, 10:29 PM

Where would we be without the plain vanilla natural 20? One of the greatest mechanical choices in 3rd edition by far.

Opinions differ, of course. I love the 3d6-instead-of-d20 mechanic presented in UA. I also love some houserules for natural 1s and 20s I've seen, like "20 means add +20 and reroll" or "1 means -10, 20 means 30". The natural 20 has elegance and simplicity, sure, but it doesn't gibe with my view of how a gameworld ought to work. It appears not to make ideal sense to quite a few other people, either, which is why it's so frequently houseruled into something more "realistic".

I enjoyed Feng Shui ... not mechanically (I hardly remember anything from the system), but in its unabashed over-the-top fun-lovin' cinematic STYLE, baby, STYLE! My favorite concept from the game -- I think this actually came from one of their books, though it could be a false association -- is the idea that if the PCs slow down and think too much, just send some guys through the door with guns. There's always a justification. :smallbiggrin:

storybookknight

2010-01-22, 12:30 AM

Opinions differ, of course. I love the 3d6-instead-of-d20 mechanic presented in UA. I also love some houserules for natural 1s and 20s I've seen, like "20 means add +20 and reroll" or "1 means -10, 20 means 30". The natural 20 has elegance and simplicity, sure, but it doesn't gibe with my view of how a gameworld ought to work. It appears not to make ideal sense to quite a few other people, either, which is why it's so frequently houseruled into something more "realistic".

I enjoyed Feng Shui ... not mechanically (I hardly remember anything from the system), but in its unabashed over-the-top fun-lovin' cinematic STYLE, baby, STYLE! My favorite concept from the game -- I think this actually came from one of their books, though it could be a false association -- is the idea that if the PCs slow down and think too much, just send some guys through the door with guns. There's always a justification. :smallbiggrin:

Absolutely, the style is the primary consideration to play Feng Shui. It's ridiculous, cinematic, cheesy, and great for just a night of fun and relaxation. I was mostly hoping to work it into the conversation with a mechanics lead-in. :) You're right about the suggestion being in the book, though it's also been attributed elsewhere. I believe the original version involves ninjas.

I do like the notion of the "critical hit" overall, though - WOD's reroll 10 rule and Savage World / 7th Sea acing die rules are also high on the list.

Joel Shempert

2010-01-22, 01:48 AM

Actually, that's originally Raymond Chandler's adage: "When in doubt, have a man come through a door with a gun in his hand." :smallcool:

I'm a big fan of that principle in a gaming environment.

Satyr

2010-01-22, 03:55 AM

The: 1d20+modifiers DnD roll. Its simple, fast and effective.

Only that it's not from D&D. The ability + skill +die Roll was a staple of the R.Talsonian games, like Cyberpunk. It is a neat mechanism, which is probably why it was so often copied.

Interesting. I always felt like TSoY split the difference between what you're calling "narrative approach," and a more standard-RPG approach. You've got "Skills" (Abilities) that are tied to core "stats," (Pools), there are special powers (Secrets) that are rather Feat-like, a damage track, and round-to-round combat as an option; hell, there are even Saving Throws! But you're right, the game is focused on the PCs as Protagonists of their stories, and thus the consequences of their choices.

Yeah, but you also regenerate wounds or lost endurance by binge drinking and having sex. It is clever system, and I really like the keys (but not the pool mechanisms) but from the general mood, it is not the ideal choice for me.

A guy named Bill White once adapted Keys for D&D, using the Alignment system, so that each alignment translated into a "Norm," i.e. the Norm of the Crusader for Lawful Good, the Norm of Rebellion for Chaotic Good, and so on. I used the idea for a D&D campaign I started around that time, not for XP (overhauling the Experience system was a bit too daunting for me as a first-time DM of that ruleset), but for earning Action Points. And I tweaked it--you could earn AP for your own Alignment, or for either adjacent alignment on an alignment wheel, and each level, you check how many tics are on which--if you have more tics on an adjacent spot, your alignment shifts!

That actually sounds very interesting. I will give it a look.

I do like the notion of the "critical hit" overall, though - WOD's reroll 10 rule and Savage World / 7th Sea acing die rules are also high on the list.
The exploding dice/reroll and add mechanism comes originally from Earthdawn, or an even older system. I mean, did anybody that the overhyped ppiece of garbage Savage Worlds had any original thoughts in it?

Kaiyanwang

2010-01-22, 04:17 AM

Yes, you translated it perfectly. :smallbiggrin:

Thank you :smallsmile:

NeoVid

2010-01-22, 04:41 AM

Moak

2010-01-22, 05:39 AM

The ONLY thing? Mechanically, okay, maybe. The hacking system is rubbish and totally the publisher's lame attempt to push a tabletop game. But Cyberpunk 2020 gets more and more fun to play as it gets further and further away from its inception.

30 years in the future.... the year is 2020. Everybody get your VCRs ready, because some data is going to hit the internets. Plug yourself into the grid and see the flow of all information in the world, megabytes of information moving in every second, all in a TRON-like 3D wiremesh.

It's better than the real world, after all, where gangsters are plugging hacked copies of Duke Nukem 3D IV directly into their brains and turning into gun-crazed sex fiends, where the corporation owns everything, and the only patriots left are filthy commies. (Praise Friend Computer!)

Cyberpunk is HILARIOUS.

Incidentally, some friends and I have a half-finished Savage Worlds port of Cyberpunk 2020 here (http://savagecyber.wetpaint.com/). I will totally finish it one day, I swear :smallredface:

Surprised nobody has mentioned this yet, but...

Where would we be without the plain vanilla natural 20? One of the greatest mechanical choices in 3rd edition by far.

Yes I was speaking mechanicaly. I don't like,p.e. how you fight,I don't like that there is too much about Cyberruner and how to hack system...
I don't think there is sense in many class...it's a system in wich you have to agree before the beginning on wich class do...and is too much about yourself.

I know,can be amusing when you are helping a russian doctor and a nazi tech to run a body black market while hiding it to your corporative and policeman guys in the group but...

A friend of mine is now trying to make us play a sort of "gestalt" cyb2020 in a world MadMax/Fallout style with no insanity problems....I'm looking forward to it. Simply because it's a more "dark" background with a spice of savage that the "basic" ambientation...

If I want to play a sci-fi games,I prefere to make it an AMMO game than a cyb2020...I even dislike SW games (even if I admit that I like both the d6 and the SAGA ones) because are too much "polarized"...alliance/rebellion/empire/jedi/yadayada...

Probably were the games I've played that weren't enough amusing...but I don't like CYB2020 as a whole...even if the character creation was SOOOO funny.

Satyr

2010-01-22, 06:02 AM

If I want to play a sci-fi games,I prefere to make it an AMMO game than a cyb2020...I even dislike SW games (even if I admit that I like both the d6 and the SAGA ones) because are too much "polarized"...alliance/rebellion/empire/jedi/yadayada...

After West End Games lost the Star Wars franchise, they made some very decent generic games based on the D6 mechanisms in the style of the old star wars game. It never took of so well, because it lacked a big name (like, e.g. Star Wars) but it is actually quite good.

storybookknight

2010-01-22, 11:07 AM

The exploding dice/reroll and add mechanism comes originally from Earthdawn, or an even older system. I mean, did anybody that the overhyped piece of garbage Savage Worlds had any original thoughts in it?

Hey, hey, now. That's just a little harsh.

I'd like to hear your rationale, there, because I've had a number of very successful games using Savage Worlds as a base.

Whether or not a system invented a particular type of mechanism really has very little to do with whether or not it's a good mechanic for that system. Every good DM steals - it's how the pieces fit together that matters.

Savage Worlds uses Fear Tables, Mass Battle Rules, a 'MP' based spell system, has rules for vehicular combat, melee and ranged personal combat - I doubt that its particular rules were the 'first' incarnation of any of them, but with the exception of the vehicle rules my group has used all of the above and had fun with them.

I'm very interested to hear where your criticism is coming from - at the very least, I'd much rather play Savage Worlds Deadlands than original rules or D20 Deadlands (*shudder*).

Though I do miss my hexslinger.

A friend of mine is now trying to make us play a sort of "gestalt" cyb2020 in a world MadMax/Fallout style with no insanity problems....I'm looking forward to it. Simply because it's a more "dark" background with a spice of savage that the "basic" ambientation...

If I want to play a sci-fi games,I prefere to make it an AMMO game than a cyb2020....

Probably were the games I've played that weren't enough amusing...but I don't like CYB2020 as a whole...even if the character creation was SOOOO funny.

I would agree that there were also a few flaws in the Cyberpunk setting design as well. Certainly the game only improves if you port over the corporations from Shadowrun, at the very least. I always got the feeling reading 2020 that the authors had no idea how a business actually worked.

mcv

2010-01-22, 11:38 AM

For a setting-dependent game mechanic, I like Earthdawn's open-ended (or exploding) die rolls a lot. It means that every once in a while, you can succeed spectacularly at something you're actually bad at. Instant epic, which is very appropriate for a magical, mythical setting like Earthdawn.

More in general, any mechanic that enhances story. Good ones are pretty rare. The Forge has experimented a lot with this sort of thing, although most of their games are way too limited and gimmicky, but apply similar mechanics in a mature RPG, and you can get something really nice.

I like the Spiritual Attributes from The Riddle Of Steel, for example. When you do something that really matters to you (it fits with your destiny, drive, faith, passion, conscience or whatever), you're suddenly better at it. And if you act in accordance with your drive, destiny, etc, your bonus gets bigger. And they're also used to track experience, so your bonus can be traded for becoming generally better at something. I haven't seen it in action yet, but I can imagine that if done right, it can really drive the story in the direction of the SAs.

Plenty of other systems have something similar. Shadowrun 4 has Edge, which you also want to use mostly for stuff that really matters (but does it matter to you, or is it merely the climax of somebody else's story?). Particularly interesting are the Plot Points from Serenity RPG (or the Cortex RPG system): you get them for doing something cool. Anything really. You should get a lot of them. And you can use them for bonuses (like in so many other systems), or to save you from lethal damage (like in so many other systems), or to introduce completely new plot elements, or change the ones that the GM presents you with. If done right, I think it can make the story way cooler and more detailed and twisted than the GM ever imagined, and that's a Good Thing.

Other favourite setting related mechanics are character generation systems that are different from the usual restrictive class-based and completely open skill-based systems. In particular: Traveller, where you can die during character generation. Also: WFRP's careers. They don't always work terribly well, and aren't very well balanced, but the idea is awesome.

I recently read some stuff about the new WFRP 3rd edition, which is a complete system redesign, that includes story-driving mechanisms as well as a complete revision of the career system (more freedom, more balance, but they're even more defining than they used to be). So it looks like it combines two favourite features of mine. I really need to buy that game.

msully4321

2010-01-22, 02:11 PM

Actually, that's originally Raymond Chandler's adage: "When in doubt, have a man come through a door with a gun in his hand." :smallcool:

I'm a big fan of that principle in a gaming environment.

One of the suggestions given in the Spirit of the Century rulebook is "When All Else Fails... Send in the Ninjas".

Which leads right into my favorite mechanic: the aspect system in Spirit of the Century. In addition to your skills, your character is definite primarily by 10 aspects, which describe your character. For example, if you built Indiana Jones as a Spirit of the Century character, he would have aspects like

Bullwhip and Fedora
Father Issues
Rugged
"Why'd it have to be snakes?"
Troubled Romances
"It belongs in a museum!"
"It's not the years, honey, it's the mileage."
Respected Academic
"I'm making this up as I go."
Heartthrob

Then, aspects are used in a couple ways. When your aspect applies to something you are trying to do, you can justify how it applies and then spend a fate point to either add 2 to your roll or simply reroll it. For example, "I'm making this up as I go" could be invoked when improvising a plan on the fly. (For example, on the Athletics check to climb into the a moving Nazi truck carrying the Ark of the Covenant).

You can also "invoke for effect", spending a fate point to make a declaration related to one of your aspects. For example, Indy could invoke Bullwhip and Fedora to declare that he has his bullwhip close at hand in a chaotic situation where he may have otherwise lost it.

The GM can also "compel" an aspect by having it create problems for the character. This can come in the form of limiting choices or introducing complications. When this happens, the player can either accept the compel and receive a fate point or spend a fate point to ignore it. For example, the GM could compel Indy's Bullwhip and Fedora to force Indy to try to recover his hat when more pressing matters are at hand. Or compel Troubled Romances so that the daughter of Indy's old mentor has learned to hate him over the past ten years. (Indy accepted fate points in both of these situations, but spent a fate point to ignore the compel of "Why'd it have to be snakes?").

Player's are encouraged to take a mix of aspects that are good, bad, and both (ones that are both tend to be best). The GM is going to do bad things to you anyways, and having an aspect related to it ensures you get paid for it.

Joel Shempert

2010-01-23, 01:24 AM

Yeah, but you also regenerate wounds or lost endurance by binge drinking and having sex. It is clever system, and I really like the keys (but not the pool mechanisms) but from the general mood, it is not the ideal choice for me.

Gotcha. I certainly won't try to tell you that you should like something when it's clearly not your thing. This helps me understand where you're coming from, so cool. I mean, I could go on and on about why TSoY rules are the way they are and why I think that's cool, but what's the point of THAT, eh? :smallamused:

That actually sounds very interesting. I will give it a look.

Yeah, thought it might be up your alley. :smallsmile:

Peace,
-Joel

oxinabox

2010-01-23, 01:49 AM

dice/success system from Storyteller (nWod (also use similarly in most whitewolf)
you roll a number of dice (d10's) equal to you dicepool (dnd read attack/skill).
and count successes (8's,9's and 10's - every 10's you get you also get to roll and extra dice (giving you the chance to continue ot get extra successes))

basically you end up rolling alot of dice.
IT's not unusual for a attack roll to have 12 dice.

Rolling dice is fun. really it is.
Sure roleplay is fun, but when you get to pickup a double hand full of dice, and then just drop'em, it's just great fun.

for the same reason playing a blaster wizard is more fun in dnd that playing a power attacking barbarian with a great ax.
the wizard rolls 10d6,
the barbarian rolls 1d12+35
the barbrian always does more damage (this is part of the plilosphy of the batman wizard - leave the killing to the warriors)
but the wizard rolls more dice.

... so much more dakka

===============================
I also love (but have never used, or seen used) the idea from some sysytem io read about (ORC?)
you vaguly have a 32 pt buy (nonwiegthed). buit its' 32pts of dice.
You could put 3d4's in STR, a 1d6 in INT, 1d2 in CHA, 1d8 in CON, 1d2 in Wis, 1d2 in dex.
Then when you added your STR to a roll, you'ld roll a extra 3d4's

Knaight

2010-01-23, 02:32 AM

The Fudge system. Two dices (six sided, two with a + sign, two with a - and two blank sides.) and a bucket-load of imagination and you can do anything you can ever think of.

I would agree with this, but more specifically.
1. The Fudge die and ladder system is brilliant.
2. Relative Degree and similar. Basically having differences in opposed rolls count for something, directly.
3. Padded rolls in Fudge. Basically direct die altering of conditional ways to push results towards 0(the middle).
4. The stances and how those affect combat.

Other stuff.

Glitches in Shadowrun. An elegant way to both handle catastrophic failures and success with a side effect. A pity the rest of the system is so slow.

The ORE die mechanic. A dice pool system, but where you look for matches, not dice over a certain number, and both the number of matching dice and the number that they match up to matters. Truly brilliant.

Wushu. A die pool system that gets dice from description. Again brilliant, and it achieves what it set out to do perfectly. Sadly, it doesn't synch up with my own preferences well.

Aspects. They do what they are supposed to do beautifully, and are very elegant. Again, they don't synch up with my own preferences.

mcv

2010-01-23, 02:50 AM

I don't see the Fudge die system as exceptionally great (it's okay), but IMO Fudge does have by far the best damage system I've ever seen. It's both very realistic, and extremely simple.

Basically, depending on damage, health, etc, even the first blow can kill you. Or maybe it's just a scratch. You've got a couple of boxes for scratches, one or two for light wounds, one for serious wounds, one for incapacitated, and one for dying. Depending on where the result of damage - health etc, you cross off the corresponding box. If there are no boxes of that type left, it goes to the next worse box.

If your worst wound is a scratch, no problem. If it's a light wound, you get -1 on everything. If it's a serious wound, you get -2. If you're incapacitated, you can't do much at all. It's simple, realistic, and easily tweaked.

No ablative hit point buffer, even the first wound, if bad enough, can kill you. It most likely won't, but even a small wound does slow you down. It's everything I want from a damage system.

Satyr

2010-01-23, 03:40 AM

Hey, hey, now. That's just a little harsh.

I'd like to hear your rationale, there, because I've had a number of very successful games using Savage Worlds as a base.

Succesful doesn't mean good. It just means that they are popular. Popularity is only a minor indicator of quality, if at all (mostly because it is easier to find other players for more popular games,which certainly is an advantage).

Savage Worlds suffer from one major problem: It is a patchwork system combining various elements which all had appeared elsewhere before. Unfortunately, these elements are not used any better than in the games they were inspired by; the dice mechanisms work actually better in Earthdawn, because there attributes actually have significance on the dice roll, and not only act as a ceiling); the edges and hindrances are very binary and through this clumsy approach have not nearly the elegance or finer adjustment usually found in a advantage/disadvantage system (you kow, like Gurps). The combat system is uninspried and virtually offers no new ideas at all. The system claims that it is designed for any genre, but it really isn't it is an action adventure game, where you can exchange the colors, but not the genre. There is a good benchmark for an adaptive game, and that is "can you create a real person with it, e.g. yourself. Go, try it. It really doesn't work that well. There is nothing wrong with action adventure RPGs, but claiming that it is something more is either stupid or a lie, and that leads me to the point where I think that Savage Worlds goes from a somewhat uninspired average to mediocre game to a despicable mess: What makes the game really annoying is the constant and obtrusive claim how fast!, fun! and furious! the game is. While I am still not sure why it is in any way desirable to have an angry game, this constant claim (not on the backcover or anything but in the true rule text) looks a lot like a) overcompensation and b) the claim that it is extraordinary fast (it isn't; the switch from dice to cards to dice alone is a good way to slow the game down), and fun is a complete subjective term; only repeating something in a grind doesn't make it so and it always carries the indication that other games aren't fast, fun, or furious.
Yes, this is the first game I ever disliked because of its attitude, which actually feels as stupid as it sounds. Nonetheless, Savage Worlds is an average with little to no outstanding features and slight delusions of grandeur. If it weren't for the constant reminders how fast! and fun! this game really is, despite its actual blandness.
There is also stuff I just don't like in a game, but which I wouldn't hold against it because my preferences are not an indicator of quality but of personal taste; this is the difference between a game like Savage Worlds and The Shadow of Yesterday; both are systems that I wouldn't particularly pick for most campaigns, and which supports a very different style of playing than my usual one. But: TSOY never claims to be the one game to end all games (only slightly exagerated) and it is actually a well-made game with some innivative ideas, as far as I can tell. Savage Worlds is a bland game which tries to be something more (or at least claims to do so), but really does nothing outstanding.

Well, that was a long rant. Probably because I am furious! today.

Knaight

2010-01-23, 03:48 AM

In the case of The Shadow of Yesterday, Keys are the obvious innovative mechanic. It is an interesting game, if average, with Keys being a cut above everything else in it. I would consider it better than Savage Worlds though, which can't seem to decide what it is going to do. For all of its claims as fast! and furious!, it slows combat down with a grid, and has a slow spell system. Parts of it are very narrativist, parts very simulationist. That is fine in a game kit type of game, but a weakness in SW.

GolemsVoice

2010-01-23, 04:24 AM

Corruption mechanics from the awesome game Unhallowed Metropolis.

Basically, all men in this setting are corrupted in a way or another. This corruption darkens their hearts and minds, and as they become ever more monstrous, their live, on the other hand, becomes gradually easier, as they leave ethic standards behind.

There are several Corruptions, like Physical, Drive, Desire etc. Corruption shows how deep the character has already succumbed to his inner demons. Each Corruption path has Afflictions, like the Consumed Affliction, which is a Drive Affliction. Each Affliction is rated from one, which means barely noticeable, to five, meaning that the character is hardly a man anymore. Consumed, in this example, means that the character focuses on his work more than on his life, missing meals and sleep, caring little for everything that isn't part of his great plan, for example a great work of art, or a thriving enterprise. One point in this Afflicition means that the character is a workaholic, and though he is obsessive and somewhat of bore when his work is not concerned, he is able to function fully. At five points, he hardly ever cares to leave his project, missing weeks and disregarding manners and basic hygiene. More than five points means that the character either becomes an unplayable monster or dies, for example from working himself to death.
Each point in an Affliction grants you one reroll per session, and you can "force" the DM to turn an event in your favor by calling on the Devil's Luck, expending all rerolls and increasing one Affliction by one point. Of course, that doesn't mean you have glamurous success, but rather that you survive and are thought dead, or that you only break a few bones and not your neck etc...

What I like about this mechanic is that the player himself drives his character into the Abyss, while still gaining something from the process. A Faustian pact helps him get along in the Unhallowed Metropolis, but in the end, it will consume him. The character, of course, will never admit this. He will lie to himself, he just has to be successful, he's doing it for the right cause, he never was treated farily, etc...

faceroll

2010-01-23, 04:46 AM

If you fall into lava you die. No save.

My friend has that book.

dsmiles

2010-01-23, 11:42 AM

One of the suggestions given in the Spirit of the Century rulebook is "When All Else Fails... Send in the Ninjas".
...Stuff...
...Spirit of the Century...
...More stuff...

This sounds like a very interesting game system. I'll have to see if I can pick up a copy...:smallsmile:

DarklingPerhaps

2010-01-23, 01:08 PM

I adore the invention creation mechanics from Genius: the Transgression. I would use those inventions in every game if I could... *sigh*

Kiero

2010-01-23, 04:26 PM

This sounds like a very interesting game system. I'll have to see if I can pick up a copy...:smallsmile:

You can read the SRD (http://www.faterpg.com/dl/sotc_srd.pdf)for free.

storybookknight

2010-01-23, 09:26 PM

Succesful doesn't mean good. It just means that they are popular. Popularity is only a minor indicator of quality, if at all (mostly because it is easier to find other players for more popular games,which certainly is an advantage).

Savage Worlds suffer from one major problem: It is a patchwork system combining various elements which all had appeared elsewhere before. Unfortunately, these elements are not used any better than in the games they were inspired by; the dice mechanisms work actually better in Earthdawn, because there attributes actually have significance on the dice roll, and not only act as a ceiling); the edges and hindrances are very binary and through this clumsy approach have not nearly the elegance or finer adjustment usually found in a advantage/disadvantage system (you kow, like Gurps). The combat system is uninspried and virtually offers no new ideas at all. The system claims that it is designed for any genre, but it really isn't it is an action adventure game, where you can exchange the colors, but not the genre. There is a good benchmark for an adaptive game, and that is "can you create a real person with it, e.g. yourself. Go, try it. It really doesn't work that well. There is nothing wrong with action adventure RPGs, but claiming that it is something more is either stupid or a lie, and that leads me to the point where I think that Savage Worlds goes from a somewhat uninspired average to mediocre game to a despicable mess: What makes the game really annoying is the constant and obtrusive claim how fast!, fun! and furious! the game is. While I am still not sure why it is in any way desirable to have an angry game, this constant claim (not on the backcover or anything but in the true rule text) looks a lot like a) overcompensation and b) the claim that it is extraordinary fast (it isn't; the switch from dice to cards to dice alone is a good way to slow the game down), and fun is a complete subjective term; only repeating something in a grind doesn't make it so and it always carries the indication that other games aren't fast, fun, or furious.
Yes, this is the first game I ever disliked because of its attitude, which actually feels as stupid as it sounds. Nonetheless, Savage Worlds is an average with little to no outstanding features and slight delusions of grandeur. If it weren't for the constant reminders how fast! and fun! this game really is, despite its actual blandness.
There is also stuff I just don't like in a game, but which I wouldn't hold against it because my preferences are not an indicator of quality but of personal taste; this is the difference between a game like Savage Worlds and The Shadow of Yesterday; both are systems that I wouldn't particularly pick for most campaigns, and which supports a very different style of playing than my usual one. But: TSOY never claims to be the one game to end all games (only slightly exagerated) and it is actually a well-made game with some innivative ideas, as far as I can tell. Savage Worlds is a bland game which tries to be something more (or at least claims to do so), but really does nothing outstanding.

Well, that was a long rant. Probably because I am furious! today.

I've never played The Shadow of Yesterday. Nor do I know much about the dice mechanics involved in Earthdawn. Not gonna touch those aspects of your post there.

In fact, I think that much of what you have to say is right on the money. Your depiction of the Savage character creation system as simplistic is pretty accurate, in fact. Certainly, it's exceptionally difficult to create a character that mechanically resembles a real person.

The same, of course, could be said of D&D.

In fact, the only game setting I know of that even tries to accomplish any such thing is World of Darkness, which is specifically a modern horror setting that gets a lot of its emotional punch from verisimilitude. So I don't feel that saying 'you can't make a real person' really carries much impact. Real people aren't the point.

Whereas it may not have as many finicky little details to customize your character with as GURPS, it also has the advantage of not having as many finicky little details to customize your character with as GURPS. An experienced Savage player can slap something together that they will enjoy playing in 20 minutes or less. New players take 40 minutes with some experienced help. That leaves you with 4 out of your 5 hours of game session left with some spare change to order pizza in. I believe GURPS character creation takes about 1.1 days X the number of sourcebooks involved, raised to the power of the effective character level? (An exaggeration, obviously. But not a huge one. ;) )

Whereas it might be exceptionally difficult to create yourself in Savage terms, creating Indiana Jones is a snap. So are Jackie Chan, Batman, Summer Glau (and the rest of the cast of Firefly)...

Unless I'm playing in a horror game, the ability to create a 'normal person' doesn't tend to excite me. Creating an honest-to-gosh hero is usually my primary goal.

Similarly, combat systems are simple and uncomplicated. You roll, you hit or miss, you roll damage. There are no inherent rules for jumping on top of the bat monster, grabbing it by the wings, and using your knowledge of aviation to try and pilot it into something explosive before rolling free at the last minute. Of course, my Savage players did it anyways. I've always felt that inspiration in combat was really derived more from internal than external sources, and that a simpler system actually allows more room for player creativity than one that has everything codified.

Moreover, it's easy to remember. There are advantages to not having to look through the book every time someone does something to figure out what the result is. Whether or not it's furious is open for debate, but it's usually faster for our group than D&D. (A pretty convenient benchmark, since it's the granddaddy of roleplaying systems.)

Granted, the base system by itself tends to feel a little samey if that's all you use. Whenever we've built our own campaign settings using the Savage Worlds rulebook (four times by my count) we've incorporated additional rules to change things up. The official rulebooks do the same thing; Necessary Evils has a hugely expanded superpowers section, whereas there are a whole host of revolver feats for Deadlands.

I honestly don't believe that Savage Worlds claims to be perfect for everything - pulp action is its metier, and it's pretty comfy in that niche. Its social skill rules are there for plot progression, not elaborate social combat at fancy balls.

In short, I think you may be overanalyzing the system, or being overly critical, or overreacting.... over-something. In my opinion, Savage Worlds is not a system that couldn't become complicated enough to do everything that it advertised. Savage Worlds fulfills its promises by keeping things simple.

Dimers

2010-01-23, 11:15 PM

Ooh, I forgot a favorite mechanic! In the old "old" World of Darkness -- I'm talkin' back in the days of Mark Rein-dot-hagen -- the Wraith game had a fantastic mechanic which has actually helped me grow as a person in real life. In addition to creating your character, you created an approximation of that character's Jungian 'shadow': the parts of you that are dark but are nevertheless parts of you. The shadow was played actively at certain times by another player in the group. And just like in Jungian theory and real life, you had to work with and manipulate your shadow, not ignore or deny it, to accomplish much. Giving in completely to the shadow was clearly (and mechanically) a bad idea, but negotiation with it was necessary.

On those rare occasions I see my own "shadow" clearly, I remember this game, look for a way to acknowledge my dark parts without letting them control the whole me, and ... um ...
???
profit
... as the kids say these days. :smalltongue:

Also, the book had a very subtle glow-in-the-dark pattern on the front cover, and it FREAKED ME THE HELL OUT when I first discovered it. "Hooooly mama something's in the room where's the lightswitch!..." :smalleek:

Edited to add: I love thinking about game mechanics. :smallbiggrin:

Satyr

2010-01-24, 06:56 AM

Certainly, it's exceptionally difficult to create a character that mechanically resembles a real person.

The same, of course, could be said of D&D.

Oh yes. I wouldn't claim that D&D is an above average game, either. In any incarnation. Okay, in every incarnation that is not Serpents and Sewers, but that's just me being vain.

I don't feel that saying 'you can't make a real person' really carries much impact. Real people aren't the point.

It's not a point. It's a benchmark. It is usually a lot easier to take a mundane, every day person and add powers and ower until you have a larger than life concept than vice versa. It's the bottom line of a game.

Whereas it may not have as many finicky little details to customize your character with as GURPS, it also has the advantage of not having as many finicky little details to customize your character with as GURPS.
In what kind of alternative reality is the lack of options or freedom of chice anything resembling an advantage? I can easily take Gurps and make it very simple (Bang Skills, prefabricated templates). That's not even difficult. But I can also use all the fine adjustments, or I take a mixture of both. Whicheber I chose, it is my choice to make.

An experienced Savage player can slap something together that they will enjoy playing in 20 minutes or less. New players take 40 minutes with some experienced help. That leaves you with 4 out of your 5 hours of game session left with some spare change to order pizza in. I believe GURPS character creation takes about 1.1 days X the number of sourcebooks involved, raised to the power of the effective character level? (An exaggeration, obviously. But not a huge one. ;) )

Honestly, I think that character creation is homework, and that any character who hasn't at least one page of annotations, background description and vita is a farce, not a character. I have not found a game where the mechanical parts of character creation took any longer than the description and background design.
Nonetheless, once I have a suiting character concept I don't need more than half an hour to build a Gurps character, usually less. Using templates or the character creation programme would significantly reduce this time. And that's for pretty much every power level. If you get really interested and you wants to design your own powers though, it might take more time (and a calculator).

I've always felt that inspiration in combat was really derived more from internal than external sources, and that a simpler system actually allows more room for player creativity than one that has everything codified.

An interesting concept and more a question of gaming philosophy than actual quality, but I think that a framework of rules is nonethelsess necessary, if only to create a batch of references.
(I also like to treat actions I consider as really, really stupid as if they were really, really stupid. So most combat stunt oriented games tend to annoy me).

I honestly don't believe that Savage Worlds claims to be perfect for everything

But that's what it claims in its own book.

Savage Worlds was designed to be used with any genre [...] It's easy to create your own world or play in one of the Savage Settings [...] Pci up the book for your favorite game setting [...] or create your own one.

But that's maybe hust another case of the aggressive hyperbole tone in the book. But for me that looks pretty much like a claim that it is a generalist game. And we probably both agree, that this just isn't so.

In short, I think you may be overanalyzing the system, or being overly critical, or overreacting.... over-something.

I just evaluated the game by its own claims and my usual standards. And yes, the game annoys me with its constant hyperbole, and the unusual large gap between its claims and what it actually delivers.

In my opinion, Savage Worlds is not a system that couldn't become complicated enough to do everything that it advertised. Savage Worlds fulfills its promises by keeping things simple.
Simplicity is a very realtive term when the system requires miniatures to run the game. I have nothing against a streamlined, easy to run game - far from it - but I still think that ease to play is a mean to an end, not an end in itself and should not be treated as such.

Project_Mayhem

2010-01-24, 09:37 AM

Favorite ever is Mage the Awakening's magic system, since being able to do, yknow, ANYTHING you can think of that's within your character's power level is pretty sweet.

Second favorite might be Changeling's Pledges.

Unfortunate sucker: Seriously, I won't rest until this is perfect!
Changeling: Good luck with that. *rolls to make the sucker hold to that agreement for a year and a day*

I'm pleased someone said that. Mage has the single most fun magic system I've used, followed closely by Ars Magica. There are no duff Arcana, therefore there are no duff spells. Everything is just as awesome as you want it to be.

Beelzebub1111

2010-01-24, 09:41 AM

Comeliness from Unearthed Arcana. Sure it sounds like a good thing to have a high score...untill the swarms of fangirls (and boys) makes it impossible to navigate through a crowd.

storybookknight

2010-01-24, 01:13 PM

I'm pleased someone said that. Mage has the single most fun magic system I've used, followed closely by Ars Magica. There are no duff Arcana, therefore there are no duff spells. Everything is just as awesome as you want it to be.

The disadvantage to Mage: the Awakening being, of course, that it's horrifically imbalanced and that the core setting fluff is disgustingly boring. :)

Will agree that Changeling, however, is awesome. My personal favorite though for that system would have to be dream combat. Being able to either punch a guy, or make all the trees in the dream-woods come to life and throw pinecones at him? Pretty sweet.

Joel Shempert

2010-01-24, 01:33 PM

I just thought of another one: Weariness-based Spellcasting from Decipher's Lord of the Rings RPG. Instead of Vancian Spell Slots, or Mana Points, or whatever, when you cast a spell you make a Weariness Check. And if you fail, the spell isn't cast and you move a step down a Weariness track, from Hale to Winded, all the way down to Exhausted. And wen you're exhausted you can't cast spells anymore, or do much else either.

It's a great reflection of of magic in Middle Earth, where people with power just DO things, but expend themselves in the process. Theoretically you could cast spells all day every day, but in practice the Weariness modifiers keep getting higher and higher (especially since Weariness covers other exertions too, like travel and battle) and casting keeps getting harder and harder. Kind of like Mutants and Masterminds' Damage Saves, now that I think of it.

The only improvement I'd make is to nix the spell failure; gaining Weariness is penalty enough, and when in Middle Earth does someone just "fizzle" in their working of magic? Maybe I'd keep the fizzle on a CRITICAL failure, but I'm not sure I'd do even that. Failing means you're that much closer to being out of spells, and gives you a penalty to doing everything. That fits well with Middle Earth to me.

I should say before someone else does, that aside from that LOTRRPG was a broken, error-filled mess of a phoned-in, roll+mod VS target number system, play-UN-tested as only Decipher can do. But they got the magic exactly right.

And props on compiling a full and voluminous "Spell List" consisting entirely of magical effects that actually happen in the books. :smallbiggrin:

Peace,
-Joel