The spell for Xykon

[ScottishDragon]

Any ideas what it is?What spell would Tsisuko know better than Xykon would?:smallconfused:

[Tenek]

Any ideas what it is?What spell would Tsisuko know better than Xykon would?:smallconfused:

Maybe it's the Gate spell thing that Redcloak needed an arcane caster for.

[OmegaDonut]

SOD Spoilers:

The Crimson Mantle (Redcloak's red cloak) gives knowledge of a ritual that can be used to Plane Shift a Gate into the throne room of the gods, holding them ransom due to the threat of being killed by the Snarl. It can only be accomplished by a high-level divine caster (Redcloak) and a high-level arcane caster (Xykon). Tsukiko is both.

[CoffeeIncluded]

Xykon doesn't trust Redcloak to be able to carry out the plan anymore.

[The Blackbird]

Any ideas what it is?What spell would Tsisuko know better than Xykon would?:smallconfused:

I have a ridiculous theory but it only makes sense if you read SOD

It will allow Xykon to taste coffee.:smalltongue:

EDIT: And no, I do not take my own theory seriously.

[SPoD]

Xykon doesn't trust Redcloak to be able to carry out the plan anymore.

Not necessarily. There's no way that Xykon could have gotten his hands on the Divine half of the ritual, that exists only in Redcloak's mind. What we have here is Tsukiko examining the Arcane half, the half that he would have had to write down for Xykon. Xykon is capable of casting this ritual, but it doesn't make sense to him, because it's half-divine (and that half is missing).

So this is a general, "I want to understand exactly what it is we're doing here," sort of distrust rather than a, "You can no longer be trusted, I'm replacing you," distrust.

EDIT: However, I agree this is bad news for Redcloak, in the long term.

[NerfTW]

It's the ritual for the gates. Xykon doesn't trust Red Cloak. He clearly hasn't trusted him since SOD, but now that he has Tsukiko, he doesn't need to worry about that.

[Acero]

OR.....

he just doesn't understand what he has to do

[Shale]

Xykon doesn't trust Redcloak to be able to carry out the plan anymore.

Or he suspects that Redcloak is setting him up as a patsy.

[Ryerbiar]

I'm willing to guess it has something to do with finding the lost phylactery. After all, Xykon won't risk going for the gate if his phylactery is still missing.

[derfenrirwolv]

Its probably the ritual to turn xykon into a demilich, since xykons number one concern right now is recovering his phylactery.

It being the ritual to work the gates would work too, since it normally need a divine and an epic caster, but tsuko is both... and given that she only saw the second half of it and she needs to figure out the first...

[ChowGuy]

Not necessarily. There's no way that Xykon could have gotten his hands on the Divine half of the ritual, that exists only in Redcloak's mind. What we have here is Tsukiko examining the Arcane half, the half that he would have had to write down for Xykon. Xykon is capable of casting this ritual, but it doesn't make sense to him, because it's half-divine (and that half is missing).

Precisely, hence the significance of T's epiphany "so if this is the really the second line...that's it!" What Xykon is hoping that she, as both a divine and arcane caster, can do is reconstruct the other half, thus rendering Redcloak irrelevant.

[the_tick_rules]

Maybe Xykon's lazy? Or he considered finding his phalactery a higher priority?

[Conuly]

Or he suspects that Redcloak is setting him up as a patsy.

He's known that forever (read SoD), but this is the first he's had a chance to get some magical backup that we know of.

[FujinAkari]

I think you all are simply reading too much into it... I think its simply that Xykon, as a sorcerer, can't understand Redcloak's instructions, since he has no formal magical training, and is having Tsukiko teach it to him.

I don't think it (necessarily) has any implications on Redcloak's trustworthiness,

[Alex Warlorn]

Precisely, hence the significance of T's epiphany "so if this is the really the second line...that's it!" What Xykon is hoping that she, as both a divine and arcane caster, can do is reconstruct the other half, thus rendering Redcloak irrelevant.


Tsukiko's is proving her WORTH to Xykon, that's for sure. Yes, it is very logically the Gate Spell. And VERY VERY logically... Xykon now that he's long enough to think about it, wants to be precisely sure that the spell does what Redcloak says it does...

Of course, Tsukiko isn't Epic Level. So she can't perform the ritual for her master.

Tsukiko of course for her part doesn't realize Xykon's true nature, even Monster-San whose denser then lead and slower than molasses know Xykon doesn't feel that kind of endearment towards any entity.

On another note, the three fiends with their soul splice would be able to use V' body as a host and call forth an Epic Arcane and Divine spell caster to use their talents ... and use the Snarl to slaughter the good aligned gods (and maybe any evil gods that accidently get caught in the cross fire).

I wonder why Tsukiko hasn't attempted Lichdom yet, or maybe is waiting until she's powerful enough to try it without accidently perma killing herself.

[Conuly]

I'm thinking a bit more... I suppose it's also possible that it's a spell to find his phylactery, right? Maybe?

[Shale]

And that spell just happens to be a two-part ritual that takes an Arcane-Divine hybrid caster to analyze, when the big doom spell that's driving Team Evil's quest is also a two-part ritual, one part arcane and one part divine? Nah, not buying it.

[Querzis]

I think you all are simply reading too much into it... I think its simply that Xykon, as a sorcerer, can't understand Redcloak's instructions, since he has no formal magical training, and is having Tsukiko teach it to him.

You're underestimating Xykon so much its not even funny. You think Xykon got that half-ritual for decades and could never bother to understand Redcloak instructions? Firstly, Xykon is not the kind of guy who wouldnt tell Redcloak if he woudnt be able to read his instructions. If he really woudnt have had any idea of what Redcloak wrote when he gave it that ritual, he would have simply screamed at Redcloak, told him to make it simpler and maybe mentally torture him a bit just for fun. And secondly...this is freaking Xykon, an epic spellcaster who keep showing to people why you shoudnt underestimate sorcerer. He obviously need Tsukiko for the Divine half, there is absolutely no way he would have any trouble at all with the Arcane half.

[Conuly]

And that spell just happens to be a two-part ritual that takes an Arcane-Divine hybrid caster to analyze, when the big doom spell that's driving Team Evil's quest is also a two-part ritual, one part arcane and one part divine? Nah, not buying it.

We don't KNOW that this-spell-Tsukiko-is-analyzing requires a hybrid Arcane-Divine caster. We just know it needs a caster, and Tsukiko happens to BE an Arcane-Divine hybrid caster, and he didn't give it to Redcloak for some reason (maybe it requires depth perception to understand).

[Shale]

And yet Rich worked the "hey, remember how Tsukiko's a Theurge?" reference into the strip for...what, ****s and giggles?

There's nothing outright contradicting it, but from a storytelling standpoint it would be serious bait-and-switch.

[The Wanderer]

He's known that forever (read SoD), but this is the first he's had a chance to get some magical backup that we know of.

Not true. So far as I can remember (SOD is out on loan right now) he has never shown any signs of knowing the truth about the ritual. Redcloak lied to him from the start, and nothing Xykon has done has said he knows otherwise, unless he guessed at something from serini's diary when he disappeared for years...

[Thanatosia]

SOD Spoiler stuff
I think its pretty safe bet that the spell he's having Tsukiko research is the gate-moving spell. Since I highly doubt Tsukiko is capable of casting epic level magic, I don't think the intent is to replace Redcloak in performing the Ritual, but to understand exactly what he is doing (something that he realy had no choice but to just trust redcloak on up until now).

I can hazard a guess that once Tsukiko unravels enough to tell Xykon that the spell is just to move the gate, and not control the snarl as he has been lead to believe, that things are about to get real bad for Redcloak.

[Conuly]

Not true. So far as I can remember (SOD is out on loan right now) he has never shown any signs of knowing the truth about the ritual. Redcloak lied to him from the start, and nothing Xykon has done has said he knows otherwise, unless he guessed at something from serini's diary when he disappeared for years...

He's known that he can't trust Redcloak, if his actions to prevent Redcloak's betrayal are any indication. Even for a guy like Xykon, how hard is it to figure "Huh, maybe he lied to me" into that?

[Martok]

Not true. So far as I can remember (SOD is out on loan right now) he has never shown any signs of knowing the truth about the ritual. Redcloak lied to him from the start, and nothing Xykon has done has said he knows otherwise, unless he guessed at something from serini's diary when he disappeared for years...
The problem with that argument is that this would be far from the first time Xykon has played dumb on something, only to suddenly demonstrate that he, in fact, knew all along what was going on.

In SoD, he knew all along that....
....Redcloak's brother was planning on stabbing him with the magical dagger, but didn't let on that he knew until after Redcloak killed him to save Xykon.

And even more recently, Xykon made it clear that he knew full well Redcloak had been deliberately stalling in Azure City, and that his interrogating/torturing of O'Chul was getting nowhere.



I'm not saying you're wrong. It would be foolish in the extreme, however, to underestimate Xykon's intelligence. While it's obvious he has little patience for detailed plans and has a somewhat short attention span at times, he's also shown himself to be almost frighteningly smart when he wants to be.

I would not be at all surprised if he long ago figured out that Redcloak was duping him, and that the Gates ritual doesn't do exactly what Redcloak told him it does. Xykon had simply lacked a way to double-check on this, however....at least until now.

[Querzis]

Not true. So far as I can remember (SOD is out on loan right now) he has never shown any signs of knowing the truth about the ritual. Redcloak lied to him from the start, and nothing Xykon has done has said he knows otherwise, unless he guessed at something from serini's diary when he disappeared for years...

Considering everything we learn about Xykon in SoD, thinking that Xykon might not know that Redcloak always had a different plan for the Snarl then him sounds very naive to me. Dont confuse not knowing with not caring. Xykon is simply overconfident as he always was. He mostly likely just thought until now that he could easely take care of Redcloak after the ritual was complete.

But I think that what Xykon is starting to realize here is that Redcloak might not know how to control the Snarl. You have to understand that for a guy like Xykon, the simple thought of dying (or in this case, having his soul destroyed) for a cause is just crazy. I'm absolutely sure that Xykon always knew Redcloak was lying to him but I'm also almost sure that he never thought that Redcloak was lying about the «control the Snarl» part because really, what kind of idiot would want to release the Snarl without being able to control it?

[Katana_Geldar]

SOD Spoiler stuff
I think its pretty safe bet that the spell he's having Tsukiko research is the gate-moving spell. Since I highly doubt Tsukiko is capable of casting epic level magic, I don't think the intent is to replace Redcloak in performing the Ritual, but to understand exactly what he is doing (something that he realy had no choice but to just trust redcloak on up until now).

I can hazard a guess that once Tsukiko unravels enough to tell Xykon that the spell is just to move the gate, and not control the snarl as he has been lead to believe, that things are about to get real bad for Redcloak.

I agree with this.

Redcloak only told Xykon what he needed to know and probably what Xykon wanted to know. Xykon is under the impression that you can control the gate and the Snarl with Redcloak's ritual.
I wonder if Xykon could come to the point where he won't need Redcloak and substitute him for Tsukiko? She's not that high a level yet, but he could find a way...

[B. Dandelion]

I've said before that I think there are a lot of people who overestimate Xykon's intelligence when a greater part of his successes could be attributed to luck -- but this is a genuine cause for alarm. Xykon's not a genius, but he's not stupid, either. What he is, is lazy. When he stops being lazy, you need to start paying attention.

I think that he may simply be following up on a suspicious loose end he'd been content to wait out before, but it occurs to me that it might not be a fear of treachery on Redcloak's end but a desire to instigate treachery on his own. The presumed plan is to take over the world, and divvy up the land so that the goblins will have a better share. But why share the world with someone who hates you if you can find a patsy who's actually loyal to you personally, and dumb enough to think they can buy your affection?

[SoC175]

Of course, Tsukiko isn't Epic Level. So she can't perform the ritual for her master.
SOD Spoiler stuff
Since I highly doubt Tsukiko is capable of casting epic level magic, I don't think the intent is to replace Redcloak in performing the Ritual
The spell isn't an epic level spell just a high level spell (create gate spell is epic level, but not their steal gate spell). Redcloak was already planning to cast it together with Xykon 30 years ago, if not some unfortunate incident (which can be read in SoD) had wrecked his plan.

Back then Redcloak wasn't even level 13 (he became powerfull enough for regeneration only years later). So at max this can be a 6th level spell.


However if it's truly the divine part (although that's unlikely) or Tsukiko can decipher the missing divine part from studying Xykon's arcane part, then that would mean that Tsukiko'S patron deity (rat??) would learn of it as soon as she prays for it (a mystic theurge's cleric half is still a normal cleric in all ways)

[Katana_Geldar]

That's another good point, and it would be interesting to work out just what god is Tsukiko's. I guess rat as well as it's evil...and then the gods know what the Dark One up to.

[factotum]

Back then Redcloak wasn't even level 13 (he became powerfull enough for regeneration only years later). So at max this can be a 6th level spell.


Unless, of course, the divine part of the ritual is granted as a spell-like ability by the Crimson Mantle, in which case it wouldn't matter what level Redcloak was when he needed to cast it. That would also make things more secure from the Dark One's point of view--you couldn't get some random cleric of another god finding out how to cast the spell and giving control of the god-killing monstrosity to their own deity!

[Fish]

You may be overthinking this.

Xykon's a sorcerer. He can't simply transcribe spells off of a scroll into his spellbook.

[Hatchet]

So thanks to the MiTD, Xykon will learn that Redcloak lied to him about what the ritual actually does. Well, it's not like they trusted each other in the first place. I don't think Xykon will confront Redcloak about it, he'll probably just try to modify the ritual in secret to do what RC told him it would do.

[Dr.Epic]

{Scrubbed}

[Fitzclowningham]

I have a ridiculous theory but it only makes sense if you read SOD

It will allow Xykon to taste coffee.:smalltongue:

EDIT: And no, I do not take my own theory seriously.

Like Polymorph? :smallsmile:

[Moglorosh]

You may be overthinking this.

Xykon's a sorcerer. He can't simply transcribe spells off of a scroll into his spellbook.He learned Cloister simply enough.

Also, you guys are all forgetting one thing: Xykon was awfully close to the rift. It's not only possible, but quite probable that he saw what was inside it and is beginning to doubt Redcloak's entire story.

And to those of you saying that he's going to replace Redcloak: it's already been pointed out that he has no possible access to the divine portion of the spell. Also, if he wanted to replace Redcloak, he'd simply kill him and give the cloak to Jirix like he said he would.

[Ancalagon]

Xykon's a sorcerer. He can't simply transcribe spells off of a scroll into his spellbook.

Unlikely. As epic sorcerer lich, he probably has Knowledge(Arcana) in his high 20s. His part of the ritual is arcane in nature, thus he can figure it out.
Also, Redcloak WANTS him to cast his part so Redcloak is likely to explain Xykon all he needs to know to understand.

Which means that Xykon wants to understand MORE than he "needs to know". He either wants to know exactly what the ritual does OR he wants to be able to change what it does OR he wants someone else besides Redcloak knowing the entire ritual.
In case of Xykon (who knows how much depends on this ritual and who surely does not trust Redcloak) it is quite likely he is after all three of the things mentioned above.

[Optimystik]

You may be overthinking this.

Xykon's a sorcerer. He can't simply transcribe spells off of a scroll into his spellbook.

If I had to hazard a guess, I'd say the Dark One's "Gate-napper" is more than likely an incantation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/incantations.htm) than an actual spell.

Incantations are plot-magic.

[ChowGuy]

If I had to hazard a guess, I'd say the Dark One's "Gate-napper" is more than likely an incantation than an actual spell.
That would tally with "second line of the chant" since so far as we've seen using spells per se in OotS requires only speaking the word of power and in some cases making the correct gesture.

But even for those saying that he can't have T perform the ritual because she's not high enough level remember, this is Xykon, whose Arcane epic-ness is exceeded only by his ego epicness. If he decides he needs a high level cleric but doesn't trust the one he has, he's not thinking he can just create one by feeding them XP in convenient minion-sized chunks. Starting with Redcloak.

[Optimystik]

If Redcloak cheeses Xykon off enough, I'd say Jirix is next in line for the cloak - much more malleable.

[Ancalagon]

If Redcloak cheeses Xykon off enough, I'd say Jirix is next in line for the cloak - much more malleable.

Actually, that is what really confuses me for quite a while.

Redcloak is a very smart guy (both in regard to Int and Wis) but he still understimates Xykon in a very dramatic way. Even when he already learned a very, very painful lesson about that. This constant neglect about Xykon is what will be his undoing.

I'm very interested if Redcloak will keep that up in the future as Xykon basically TOLD him he's replaceable. He also failed to do what was his sole role in the eyes of Xykon, protecting the phylactery. And that should give Redcloak a lot to think about.

The smartest thing Redcloak should do (should have done ALL those months in Azure City!) would be a plot to get rid of Xykon to replace him with another arcane spellcaster (he had the ressources of a goblin-town so coming up with some way to get (pay, whatever) a caster should be possible).
Redcloak must know he just moved from "very useful leader" down to "head minion" and should act accordingly.

[Optimystik]

Agreed - it seems that all Xykon really needs is the cloak, and the goblin whose head it fills with knowledge will be incidental.

Redcloak's problem is that he's focusing too much on how much he needs Xykon - without stopping to consider whether Xykon needs him. Especially with the phylactery gone.

I'd say this is where the Dark One should step in, except I doubt he cares about Redcloak either.

[zql]

I doubt that this particular spell is the ritual for the Gates. Otherwise, why Xykon wouldn't tell Tsukiko from the beggining that it's half a spell?

[Optimystik]

I doubt that this particular spell is the ritual for the Gates. Otherwise, why Xykon wouldn't tell Tsukiko from the beggining that it's half a spell?

If you tell someone what they're looking at rather than let them figure it out on their own, you risk inadvertently closing off several avenues of thought to that person by coloring their preconceptions.

I'm not saying there aren't other possibilities for what that spell is, but he does have a good reason not to say anything nonetheless.

[The MunchKING]

However if it's truly the divine part (although that's unlikely) or Tsukiko can decipher the missing divine part from studying Xykon's arcane part, then that would mean that Tsukiko'S patron deity (rat??) would learn of it as soon as she prays for it (a mystic theurge's cleric half is still a normal cleric in all ways)

Didn't Rat ALREADY know about the Gate? IIRC he was the one that told the Dark One about it; thus he should already know any Gate warping magics he could hand out. He just doesn't have the whole stake in killing Gods thing that the Dark One has.

[zql]

If you tell someone what they're looking at rather than let them figure it out on their own, you risk inadvertently closing off several avenues of thought to that person by coloring their preconceptions.


That's true, but not giving crucial pieces of information could delay the task that you are asking for, and that doesn't sound like Xykon at all.

Your argument seems plausible, nevertheless.

[The MunchKING]

That's true, but not giving crucial pieces of information could delay the task that you are asking for, and that doesn't sound like Xykon at all.

Your argument seems plausible, nevertheless.

Depends on the results Xycon wants.

If he's really selling redcloak up river he's going to want "accurate" more than "Fast".

If he's just being like "Error-check my spells girl. I don't want to screw this S888 up when I do it." then he'll just want her quick opinion on whether it is what he thinks it is.

[Optimystik]

Didn't Rat ALREADY know about the Gate? IIRC he was the one that told the Dark One about it; thus he should already know any Gate warping magics he could hand out. He just doesn't have the whole stake in killing Gods thing that the Dark One has.

Actually, it was the Rift that Rat told the DO about, not the Gate. The Crimson Mantle predates the Gates.

There was no Gate over Lirian's Rift when the goblin cleric first fell into it.

[Ancalagon]

I doubt that this particular spell is the ritual for the Gates. Otherwise, why Xykon wouldn't tell Tsukiko from the beggining that it's half a spell?

A) He's testing her. If she figures it out... good. If not... then she's useless and will get executed or whatever.

B) He simply did not care. "Here, take this. Figure it out. The rest is your problem".
He might even not have cared enough to really check it out himself (bored) and just gave it to his minion. If she fails, he might see the need to invest time himself (something he does not want to do unless he can do other things as... playing with prisoners and getting them die in ridiculous ways).

[Katana_Geldar]

Actually, it was the Rift that Rat told the DO about, not the Gate. The Crimson Mantle predates the Gates.

There was no Gate over Lirian's Rift when the goblin cleric first fell into it.

There's also doubt if anyone else but the Dark One knows of the plan.

[Isador Levi]

The smartest thing Redcloak should do (should have done ALL those months in Azure City!) would be a plot to get rid of Xykon to replace him with another arcane spellcaster (he had the ressources of a goblin-town so coming up with some way to get (pay, whatever) a caster should be possible).
Redcloak must know he just moved from "very useful leader" down to "head minion" and should act accordingly.

The idea of Redcloak turning on Xykon (or even simply abandoning him) was addressed a few times in Start of Darkness.

The problem is, by this point Redcloak is pathologically incapable of doing so, since that would be a final admittance that joining with Xykon in the first place, and especially turning him into a lich, were mistakes, and that everything he's lost and everyone who died for the sake of having Xykon as part of the plan was in vain.

Redcloak needs Xykon because not having him means the fault for every terrible thing that happened since he joined Xykon will be on his head alone, and he's so driven by guilt and remorse over what humans did to his people that he can never stand to admit that he has done just as bad.

[olthar]

I doubt that this particular spell is the ritual for the Gates. Otherwise, why Xykon wouldn't tell Tsukiko from the beggining that it's half a spell?

What makes you think Xykon knows this?

Redcloak could have led Xykon to believe that it is a spell that requires the power of an arcane and divine caster using the same spell at the same time instead of them casting two different spells simultaneously.

[zql]

The idea of Redcloak turning on Xykon (or even simply abandoning him) was addressed a few times in Start of Darkness.

The problem is, by this point Redcloak is pathologically incapable of doing so, since that would be a final admittance that joining with Xykon in the first place, and especially turning him into a lich, were mistakes, and that everything he's lost and everyone who died for the sake of having Xykon as part of the plan was in vain.

Redcloak needs Xykon because not having him means the fault for every terrible thing that happened since he joined Xykon will be on his head alone, and he's so driven by guilt and remorse over what humans did to his people that he can never stand to admit that he has done just as bad.

Conquering Azure City seems like a fair excuse for Xykon alliance's "backfire" given that the ultimate goal for the wearer of the Crimson Mantle is (SoD spoiler) raise a goblin nation that endures. It may be not enough to make Redcloak drop the Gate Quest, but it may changed the way he looks his need of X.

That comment from Rich in DStP about how many sides are in the main conflict suggest that RC would break up with Xykon at some point. And resuming the task of training arcane spellcasters (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0512.html) makes me think he could be considering split the alliance since the conquer of Azure city.

[zql]

What makes you think Xykon knows this?

Redcloak could have led Xykon to believe that it is a spell that requires the power of an arcane and divine caster using the same spell at the same time instead of them casting two different spells simultaneously.

RC needs Xykon to cast the spell perfectly. If this ritual in 700 is the ritual for the Gates, given by Tsukiko's epifany in the strip, Xykon needs to know that it's only one half spell to cast it appropriatly.

Besides, I think that the 6 months between Xykon's arrival at Dungeon of Dorukan and the beginning of the comic are enough even for a lazy epic level sorcerer lich to learn the ritual. I think he must bothered to prove it while he sent all those goblins (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0095.html) to the seal. But this is very argueable because it's in an early strip...

[Katana_Geldar]

The idea of Redcloak turning on Xykon (or even simply abandoning him) was addressed a few times in Start of Darkness.

The problem is, by this point Redcloak is pathologically incapable of doing so, since that would be a final admittance that joining with Xykon in the first place, and especially turning him into a lich, were mistakes, and that everything he's lost and everyone who died for the sake of having Xykon as part of the plan was in vain.

Redcloak needs Xykon because not having him means the fault for every terrible thing that happened since he joined Xykon will be on his head alone, and he's so driven by guilt and remorse over what humans did to his people that he can never stand to admit that he has done just as bad.

Yes, but...Redcloak still has not told Xykon what the plan really is.

Xykon is under the impression that Redcloak's plan is all about ruling the world, and the fact that Redcloak is willing to have the world destroyed again as a Plan B isn't known to him. If it was, if Xykon knew what the ritual really did then he would not go along with Recloak's plan in controlling one of the gates just so the goblins could be free

And this is why Xykon got Tsukiko to analyse the Divine part of the ritual. Xykon would know squat about Divine magic, probably intended by Redcloak to keep Xykon from killing him and giving the cloak to a hobgoblin. So knowing what the plan is for himself, and not from Redcloak or one of Redcloak's lackeys, he wants to keep himself on the same footing as Redcloak...until he finds out what the ritual actually does.

Xykon hardly trusts anyone to give him information and prefers to find out things for himself and using his own sources (Serini's diary for instance), but he knows he can use Tsukiko as neither of them trust Redcloak.

[Barlen]

Assuming that this is the spell to the control the gates:
1) If they had the spell to control the gates, why didn't they use it during the 6 months they had access to Dorukan's gate?
2) What level is this spell if Tsukiko can grasp it? She isn't likely to be a higher level than Haley so her spellcraft cant be epic.

[Kish]

Assuming that this is the spell to the control the gates:
1) If they had the spell to control the gates, why didn't they use it during the 6 months they had access to Dorukan's gate?
They needed the gate to be open, remember? That was the whole point of their sending goblins into it, and then trying to get Elan to open it.

The ritual requires an arcane spellcaster and a divine spellcaster; specific level requirements not yet established, but the divine spellcaster need not have access to sixth-level spells.

[derfenrirwolv]

Assuming that this is the spell to the control the gates:
1) If they had the spell to control the gates, why didn't they use it during the 6 months they had access to Dorukan's gate?

Because there's THE GATE (the rift into the snarl) and then theres the gate, the thing durokan put in front of THE GATE to prevent anyone from getting in.

Its interesting to note that so far, Durokan has provided the most protection. Liriums gate went down in 10 minutes without her, Soon's gate cracked after 10 minutes of xykons assault, and Durokons gate was still standing after 6 months of xykon sitting right next to it.



2) What level is this spell if Tsukiko can grasp it? She isn't likely to be a higher level than Haley so her spellcraft cant be epic.

No, but if she's 16th level she's got 19 ranks, a 16 int, and probably a +4 int item, for a +24 bonus. Good enough to get a dc 40 on a good roll.

[Querzis]

Its interesting to note that so far, Durokan has provided the most protection. Liriums gate went down in 10 minutes without her, Soon's gate cracked after 10 minutes of xykons assault, and Durokons gate was still standing after 6 months of xykon sitting right next to it.

Really? Cause as far as I remember, the only reason they managed to defeat Lirian was because of Xykon transformation as a lich while Soon was about to destroy Xykon and Redcloak forever until She-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named destoyed the gate.

[Shale]

It's two different measures. Durokan had the sturdiest Gate - it withstood six months of continual attempts at a breach by an epic sorcerer - but at the same time his defenses were by far the least threatening. Lirian and Soon had far more deadly protections surrounding their Gates, but once those defenses were breached the Gates themselves might as well have been made of tissue.

[Faramir]

He learned Cloister simply enough.

Also, you guys are all forgetting one thing: Xykon was awfully close to the rift. It's not only possible, but quite probable that he saw what was inside it and is beginning to doubt Redcloak's entire story.

And to those of you saying that he's going to replace Redcloak: it's already been pointed out that he has no possible access to the divine portion of the spell. Also, if he wanted to replace Redcloak, he'd simply kill him and give the cloak to Jirix like he said he would.

Unless of course Xykon has not only come to distrust Redcloak but also the Dark One whose will Redcloak is presumably serving. At that point he'll want access to a cleric who is not wearing the Crimson Mantle.

[derfenrirwolv]

Really? Cause as far as I remember, the only reason they managed to defeat Lirian was because of Xykon transformation as a lich

LIRIAN provided a lot of protection, as did her guardian virus. her gate, protected by nature, did very little. It broke as soon as the fire started



while Soon was about to destroy Xykon and Redcloak forever until She-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named destoyed the gate.

Exactly. the honor of a paladin was supposed to be unbreakable. She shattered that AND the gem, which isn't a coincidence.

Also, the army was camped outside durkons hold for quite some time before they moved in and THEN couldn't get to the snarl.

[Larkspur]

Conceivably Redcloak was dumb enough to give Xykon his half of the ritual back before they picked up Jirix and Tsukiko and he became replaceable. I tend to doubt it though, if only because it seems unlikely Xykon would bother to ask for extra reading material.

I'm guessing Tsukiko has Xykon's half, and he's either getting her to check that it does what Redcloak says it does, or he knows already that it's off and he's getting her to help him modify it to give him control of the rift. I doubt she can extrapolate the whole divine half from what she's got.

Of course, in so doing he's made himself redundant. Normally it wouldn't matter because she hates Redcloak, but if Xykon spurns her affections or something I could see her teaming up with Redcloak to screw him over.

A third possibility is that he just wants a backup caster so he can devote his energy to fighting off any opposition if he needs to and let the kids perform the ritual for him.

[warrl]

He learned Cloister simply enough.
I was under the impression that Dorukan cast Cloister on a gem set in a headband, and Xykon took the headband (and thus the spell).

If I'm right, he might still be unable to cast it - but he has the spell, already cast by Dorukan.

[Kish]

I was under the impression that Dorukan cast Cloister on a gem set in a headband, and Xykon took the headband (and thus the spell).
Aside from the fact that Cloister as described by Celia doesn't work anything like that, Xykon casts Cloister here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0484.html). He says the name of the spell, the whole city glows briefly, then he says "Azure City is officially off the grid."

[Ancalagon]

I was under the impression that Dorukan cast Cloister on a gem set in a headband, and Xykon took the headband (and thus the spell).

If I'm right, he might still be unable to cast it - but he has the spell, already cast by Dorukan.

Xykon also says somewhere that the headband is some lame hippie-acessoire or the focus for a very powerful spell (might be in Start of Darkness). So, it's safe to assume it is actually the focus needed to *cast* the spell.

[Shale]

The headband is the spell's material focus, which means it is necessary (but not sufficient) to cast the spell.

[ChrisFortyTwo]

The headband is the spell's material focus, which means it is necessary (but not sufficient) to cast the spell.

Xykon did take time to learn to cast it. Celia says (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0532.html) "One day, it was back." That implies time for Xykon to "master the spell himself".

[Asta Kask]

Tsukiko of course for her part doesn't realize Xykon's true nature, even Monster-San whose denser then lead and slower than molasses know Xykon doesn't feel that kind of endearment towards any entity.

She's in love. It can paralyze the higher brain centers. Presumably she likes Bad Guys. Dead Bad Guys.

[rewinn]

A third possibility is that he just wants a backup caster so he can devote his energy to fighting off any opposition if he needs to and let the kids perform the ritual for him.
A fourth possibility is that he doesn't really trust the ritual not to do something to the casters. While the spells originally creating the gates seem not to have harmed the casters, the spell moving the gates is something different and untested. It's always best to have an expendable flunky test-fire a new weapon, just in case.

[Ash_Gazn]

Xykon isn't stupid. At least not since he came to be a lich.
Xykon IS Lazy.
Xykon, above all other things, is a D!ck (to quote Rich)

While as a Sorcerer he comes by his magic by birth and blood instead of research, that doesn't mean he doesn't at this point see how things work, arcanely speaking.

Xykon can only spend 8 hours a day making magic items.
Even if he spends ANOTHER 8 randomly torturing paladins or humans or hobgoblins, he's still got 8 hours a day to THINK and contemplate things.

[Optimystik]

While as a Sorcerer he comes by his magic by birth and blood instead of research, that doesn't mean he doesn't at this point see how things work, arcanely speaking.

This has to be quite true, since he would need considerable ranks in Spellcraft and Knowledge: Arcana to be able to cast epic spells himself.

Also, Sorcerers have to research epic spells just like Wizards do. Wizards have a bit more of an edge (higher INT modifiers, in general) but study is a requirement for both parties.