2 Wizard Spell Questions 4e

[HMS Invincible]

The DM is using an orb wizard sleep combo. What should the party do?

Question 2, what counts as an opportunity action from Winged Horde? I know opportunity attacks, but there's bound to be more.

[dsmiles]

The DM is using an orb wizard sleep combo. What should the party do?

Stay out of range. Seriously. Don't you have any powers that can beat the range on sleep? Or bows/crossbows?


Question 2, what counts as an opportunity action from Winged Horde? I know opportunity attacks, but there's bound to be more.

I believe that that's pretty much it, unless some classes have features that allow them to take other Opportunity Actions...hrm...I'll have to look that up when I get home.

[Kurald Galain]

The DM is using an orb wizard sleep combo. What should the party do?
Well, invest in anything that gives the party extra saving throws and/or bonuses on saving throws. Either that or nuke the wizard in the round during which you're slowed but not unconscious yet.

What do you mean "the DM is using", anyway? Is it a one-time encounter? A recurring antagonist? A mary sue DMPC?


Question 2, what counts as an opportunity action from Winged Horde? I know opportunity attacks, but there's bound to be more.
Any power that specifies it is an opportunity action. There's rather few of those, but e.g. several summon spells mention they can attack as an opportunity action, and some zone spells mention that they do something as an opportunity action when someone enters or starts in the zone. Both are pretty rare, though - in practice, Winged Horde is about denying OAs.


Stay out of range. Seriously. Don't you have any powers that can beat the range on sleep?
Sleep is range 20. Powers over range 10 are very rare, to the point of nonexistence for most classes other than wizards and bow-users.

[Evard]

About the only thing that has a range of 20 is Magic missile and a few other wizard spells and i think the Invoker has some powers that may be range 20 sooo on the way of powers you might be in trouble... Although rangers with a great-bow would work pretty well or even a Seeker.

Great-Bow + Far shot from a seeker or ranger is your best option

Great bow range 25/50 then far shot feat is another +5

you want the extra 5 feat so that an enemy Mage will have to move more to make you in range. Of course if the mage uses expeditious retreat (shift twice your speed) then you will have to be pretty far to stay out of range for the attack.

[Chaelos]

Alternatively, don't cluster up in the beginning of the fight. Sleep is an area burst 2, which is big, but not insurmountably big.

[Oracle_Hunter]

Better idea - close to melee and Immobilize the Wizard. Daze is also a nice choice. See how much he likes casting when the Barbarian gets an OA :smalltongue:

But yeah, it's a Daily so... how about you suck one up and then kill him after it cleans up. Hell, throw in a couple of people that give extra Saves and you'll bounce back in no time.

[HMS Invincible]

Well, invest in anything that gives the party extra saving throws and/or bonuses on saving throws. Either that or nuke the wizard in the round during which you're slowed but not unconscious yet.

What do you mean "the DM is using", anyway? Is it a one-time encounter? A recurring antagonist? A mary sue DMPC?



We were out in the forest when this team of bounty hunters came at us. One of them casted sleep, and I casted sleep. He got my whole team and I got his whole team. I wasn't sure what to do since both parties were asleep, and it was just 2 wizards standing on opposite ends of the battlefield. Then the enemy wizard threatened to cut the throat of a unconscious rogue, and I called his bluff. He then teleported out of there with said rogue, and the encounter ended.

Isn't there items or an ability that says you automatically save? Or give a high bonus to saving?

[Oracle_Hunter]

We were out in the forest when this team of bounty hunters came at us. One of them casted sleep, and I casted sleep. He got my whole team and I got his whole team. I wasn't sure what to do since both parties were asleep, and it was just 2 wizards standing on opposite ends of the battlefield. Then the enemy wizard threatened to cut the throat of a unconscious rogue, and I called his bluff. He then teleported out of there with said rogue, and the encounter ended.

Isn't there items or an ability that says you automatically save? Or give a high bonus to saving?
Yes.

More importantly - what happened to your night watchman? :smallconfused:

Also: you learned an important lesson about going to sleep within a burst 2 of everyone :smalltongue:

[HMS Invincible]

Yes.

More importantly - what happened to your night watchman? :smallconfused:

Also: you learned an important lesson about going to sleep within a burst 2 of everyone :smalltongue:

We were awake when this happened.

[Oracle_Hunter]

We were awake when this happened.
Ah. Well, you could have attempted a Heal Check to grant one of the sleepers a Saving Throw.

Obviously not the one under the Orbizard penalty, but any of the others.

You have seen the latest Errata (http://www.wizards.com/DnD/Article.aspx?x=dnd/updates), yes? Nothing terribly relevant here, though a bunch of the Orbizard's traditional cheese items were nerfed awhile back.

[Mando Knight]

Ah. Well, you could have attempted a Heal Check to grant one of the sleepers a Saving Throw.

Note that only one target can be affected at a time by the Orb of Imposition, and only one effect can be imposed at a time. This means that if the Wizard used Imposition to force-fail against Slow from Sleep, they can't use it on the Unconscious effect. Also, as soon as the target makes good on any save, the Orb's imposition effect fades, allowing the character to make saves as normal.

[Kurald Galain]

We were out in the forest when this team of bounty hunters came at us. One of them casted sleep, and I casted sleep. He got my whole team and I got his whole team.
Wait, what? Both of you made all the attack rolls, then nothing happened during the one turn everybody still gets before they fall over, then everybody failed their save? Are you sure you aren't overlooking something in how the Sleep spell works?


it was just 2 wizards standing on opposite ends of the battlefield.
That shouldn't stop you from killing him, though :smallbiggrin:


He then teleported out of there with said rogue, and the encounter ended.
How does he do that? I am aware of no powers that let you "teleport out" of anywhere in the first place, let alone carrying someone.


This means that if the Wizard used Imposition to force-fail against Slow from Sleep, they can't use it on the Unconscious effect.
That depends on your interpretation, it could also be read as being the same effect. I have never seen it matter one bit, though: as soon as an enemy is unconscious, everybody coup de graces him and he dies before he gets another save.

[HMS Invincible]

Wait, what? Both of you made all the attack rolls, then nothing happened during the one turn everybody still gets before they fall over, then everybody failed their save? Are you sure you aren't overlooking something in how the Sleep spell works?

That shouldn't stop you from killing him, though :smallbiggrin:

The party spent their turn whaling on the other group who also had sleep casted on. I don't think they knew what they were in for until after the DM told them how badly they failed their first save. I don't think you guys understand the depth of his orb abuse. His passive was a -7 to saves, someone's been reading the charop boards..



How does he do that? I am aware of no powers that let you "teleport out" of anywhere in the first place, let alone carrying someone.

I believe the term you are looking for is DM fiat and Deus ex Machina. I don't think he was expecting me to ignore the fact that he had a hostage. Apparently he had some plans for the npc, which is why I'm asking what are some good ideas or magic items.

We're in this kind of inbetween realm where updates are only partially applied. Mainly w/e benefits the DM and hurts us is used, everything else is ignored. e.g. Avengers have the nerfed armor as normal, but they don't get the brutal feat from dragon magazine.

[illyrus]

Elven battle armor (leather and hide only) would be the biggest boost, giving a +5 item bonus to being slowed and immobilized so would help you with the first save. Add in a circlet of second chances for 2 rolls and a potion of vitality (which heals you and grants a saving throw) for a 3rd.

And just to restate, -7 to everyone shouldn't be possible (and if it is please let me know how), at paragon tier he could give a -7 to one target and then a -2 to all targets (spell focus).

*Edit - The Entrancing Mystic warlock paragon path from the Arcane Power would give a -2 to all saves checks giving you a -4 total to everyone. There are probably other paragon paths that might also effect sleep spells but NPCs/monsters do not get access to paragon paths in the first place just like PCs don't get access to templates.

There is also a ritual in the Divine Power book called Succor that would let you and other WILLING targets teleport back to a safe location as well as a ring in the Adventurer's Vault that has a similar effect if you've reached 2 milestones. I don't remember reading anything in 4E that states an unconscious target is considered willing.

[DabblerWizard]

The DM is using an orb wizard sleep combo. What should the party do?

Unless the wizard decides to injure one of his companions while they are knocked unconscious, the wizard's companions won't experience any negative effects whatsoever.

Though the character might not enjoy the experience, I'm sure they would be impressed with the wizard if they woke up to find that all of their enemies have been tied up and are ready to be interrogated.

Always remember to bring rope. That is all.

[HMS Invincible]

The original phrenic helm -1 to all saves that target will.
Spell focus -2.
Spider familiar -1 to all saves that use slow. (sleep is a slowing effect)
Earthroot staff -1 to all saves equal to its enhancement bonus.
Cunning longsword/quarterstaff -2.

Under the old rules, its pretty bad, under the new rules, its almost as bad.
I think under the new rules, the penalty goes up by 1 on the first save, and then down by 3 on following saves.

[illyrus]

Thanks for the information on that, yeah without the nerfs those become very strong. Though unless I missed something NPCs don't get feats. If he's giving it to them then they should have PC level hp, attack, ac, and no free NPC damage boosts to compensate.

Also I think that you only use 1 implement for a power, so he could use either of those items but not both as the effect has to be delivered through the item (actually reading the old earthroot staff it doesn't say that it has to be used so scratch that).

Yeah, I think your best bet is the elven battle armor and some free saving throw items (remember you can drink multiple potions in a round). If you went all out with that (yay 3 minors in a round) you'd have 5 saving throws at a -2 (-7+5) giving you a about a 95% chance for success. Even if your GM says that a free save causes you to go unconscious then you'd still get 2 saves with the helmet at a -2 for a 70% chance of a success followed by a 3rd save at the end of your round for a total (3 saves) of about 85% chance of success.

[Thajocoth]

The DM is using an orb wizard sleep combo. What should the party do?

Question 2, what counts as an opportunity action from Winged Horde? I know opportunity attacks, but there's bound to be more.

Ask him to use monsters? 4e isn't really meant to have PCs fighting PCs. I made a similar mistake in the first campaign I ran, though I still at least used the monster system for it. I pitted the PCs against a Paladin Paladin Paladin in their first battle. That's a Paladin NPC base with the Paladin template applied to it twice to make a solo Paladin.

2 - Some powers say "and you can ____ as an opportunity action". If you have no such powers, then Opp Atks are the only Opp Acts.

EDIT:

We're in this kind of inbetween realm where updates are only partially applied. Mainly w/e benefits the DM and hurts us is used, everything else is ignored. e.g. Avengers have the nerfed armor as normal, but they don't get the brutal feat from dragon magazine.

I'd get a new DM in that situation, personally...

[Doug Lampert]

How does he do that? I am aware of no powers that let you "teleport out" of anywhere in the first place, let alone carrying someone.

Quick Portal. Level 12 Utility. Planeshifter Paragon Path.

The PC wizard in my current campaign gets it next session if things go as I expect.

Mind you, an NPC isn't supposed to be built like a PC, which means he gets whatever powers I want and think are ballanced. But the power exists and I wouldn't be totally opposed to giving it to a creature at level 12+.

[Doug Lampert]

Ask him to use monsters? 4e isn't really meant to have PCs fighting PCs.

I've stopped using NPCs and class templates as in the DMG myself. I used them heavily at first, but why bother?

I gave up completely a bit after DMG II came out without GIVING the NPC build rules for the PHB II classes. (They gave the templates, but not the NPC builds, sure I can make my own, but why bother when WotC has obviously given up on NPCs built that way?)

I want an NPC wizard, I have the character builder "quick build" a wizard of appropriate level and race, then build a monster with a few similar powers scaled up or down to roughly appropriate hit chances and damage.

Similarly for a monster with some added wizard powers. The Monster Builder doesn't have the template. But I can simply add powers.


I'd get a new DM in that situation, personally...

Which updates the DM uses should be irrelevant to the players. I can do anything I want anyway. I'm the DM. That monster has whatever powers I want it to. It's also whatever level I say it is, and advances when I say it does.

I try to be consistent. I don't fudge dice, and if the monster entered battle with only X powers and Y hitpoints, that's what it fights with baring an obvious typo or mistake. But I don't need to follow any particular set of rules in making the OpForce.

Rocks fall. Everyone dies. Given that I can do that. That I can ALSO give the enemy excessive powers isn't significant.

But there's a real problem if the DM sees this as a competition with the players and is willing to "cheat" to win. He'll always win. (See above.)

When DMing I'm not in competition with the players. The NPCs may be in competition with the players, and I should play them "fair", which means they try hard to win with reasonable resources. But as a DM I want the players to win.

[HMS Invincible]

Personally, I believe he thinks we are more competent then we actually are. While I may be super optimized, some of the party is only partially optimized, and the rest are all fluff and role playing based, so they get into tough scrapes regularly.

[Thajocoth]

I've stopped using NPCs and class templates as in the DMG myself. I used them heavily at first, but why bother?

I gave up completely a bit after DMG II came out without GIVING the NPC build rules for the PHB II classes. (They gave the templates, but not the NPC builds, sure I can make my own, but why bother when WotC has obviously given up on NPCs built that way?)

I want an NPC wizard, I have the character builder "quick build" a wizard of appropriate level and race, then build a monster with a few similar powers scaled up or down to roughly appropriate hit chances and damage.

Similarly for a monster with some added wizard powers. The Monster Builder doesn't have the template. But I can simply add powers.



Which updates the DM uses should be irrelevant to the players. I can do anything I want anyway. I'm the DM. That monster has whatever powers I want it to. It's also whatever level I say it is, and advances when I say it does.

I try to be consistent. I don't fudge dice, and if the monster entered battle with only X powers and Y hitpoints, that's what it fights with baring an obvious typo or mistake. But I don't need to follow any particular set of rules in making the OpForce.

Rocks fall. Everyone dies. Given that I can do that. That I can ALSO give the enemy excessive powers isn't significant.

But there's a real problem if the DM sees this as a competition with the players and is willing to "cheat" to win. He'll always win. (See above.)

When DMing I'm not in competition with the players. The NPCs may be in competition with the players, and I should play them "fair", which means they try hard to win with reasonable resources. But as a DM I want the players to win.

I also used NPCs and class templates at first, then I realized I can cut down on headache for both me and the party by opening up to "Human" in the Monster Manuals and just finding something close. Maybe a tweak or two as needed.

If the DM is explicitly allowing whatever updates hurt the players and not whatever ones help him, then he is competing with the players, and that's just not going to end well. The Players and DM are all there to have fun. The DM has the power to hog all the fun, and that's simply bad DMing. Any DM that honestly keeps "Rocks fall, everyone dies" or anything similar to it as an option somewhere, is a bad DM.