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carrion pigeons
2010-01-20, 01:59 AM
This has probably come up before somewhere on these boards, but I don't really know what to search for:

I'm interested in starting to play this game as a forum game. I know there are a bunch of games like that in the Ongoing Games, but I've never actually played D&D before, and can't seem to figure out exactly how to find a game suited to my skill level (or lack thereof).

I've got a manual, of which I've read a fair bit, and I've looked up some guides on "how to start playing" which go over how to create a character and stuff but when it comes to finding a playgroup, mostly seem to focus on RL, which is not what I'm looking for.

Is there a place where I can find a fairly basic game, starting at level 1, with a fairly normal fantasy setting, modded by an experienced GM and maybe a few players with enough knowledge to give good advice when I need it? I've done forum roleplays before, and I played most of Neverwinter Nights like 5 years ago, but never anything as involved as it looks like this gets.

Also, which is better to start with, 3.5 or 4.0? I can't seem to find even a vague catalog of differences, and both seem to be equally popular.

Sstoopidtallkid
2010-01-20, 02:04 AM
Also, which is better to start with, 3.5 or 4.0? I can't seem to find even a vague catalog of differences, and both seem to be equally popular.4.0 is easier to learn and more balanced, 3.5 has deeper mechanics and is more popular on this forum. There's a lot of differences, but that's probably all you care about(and if I go much deeper into the differences, I'll start a debate). What edition your book is matters more to you than either of those, most likely.

Serpentine
2010-01-20, 02:11 AM
From what I've heard, 4th ed is easier and simpler - quicker and easier to get the hang of, more straightfoward. It's new, too, so you won't get swamped by non-core books out the wazoo.

I like 3.5 better, but that could well mostly just be because that's what I started on. It doesn't inspire me, but it does look a lot easier for beginners.

On the PbP, specifically, you could perhaps start a thread requesting a low-level noob game. I haven't been in that part of the forum, but I think that's allowed... You could maybe even go back through the threads and look for someone who's run a few games, and PM them about either running one for you or giving you advice on it.

DementedFellow
2010-01-20, 02:12 AM
In keeping with Sstoopidtallkid's post, 4e books are WAY easier to find. With the rarity of certain 3e books, you'd think that they were made from the wood of the cross.

sonofzeal
2010-01-20, 02:17 AM
Also, which is better to start with, 3.5 or 4.0? I can't seem to find even a vague catalog of differences, and both seem to be equally popular.
"Whichever you have the books for."

4.0 is generally agreed to be the simpler of the two. It's a truly fantastic tactical wargame, almost every class has a well-defined role, and it has new stuff coming out all the time so there's plenty of opportunity to "catch up".

3.5 is generally agreed to be the more flexible of the two. It's got a balance between verisimilitude and gameplay, there's huge variety in classes and options, and it is very well-understood and stable so most of the gameplay issues are common knowledge and can be compensated for or houseruled.



If you want to bonk some heads and roleplay in between that, 4.0's probably your better bet. If you want to go for more "gritty" or "realistic" games, or enjoy exploring different game mechanics, 3.5 is probably your better bet.

Dexam
2010-01-20, 02:19 AM
Duke of URL was recruiting for a 3.5 "Boot Camp" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=138567) for rookie players (i.e. an introduction to basic 3.5 games and play-by-post)... though I'm not sure if recruiting is still open or not.

Alternatively, just check regularly in the Play-by-post sub-forum and wait for a newbie friendly DM to start recruiting (or post your own "newbie looking for game" thread, and hope that kindly DM raises their hand).

GoodbyeSoberDay
2010-01-20, 04:17 AM
In keeping with Sstoopidtallkid's post, 4e books are WAY easier to find. With the rarity of certain 3e books, you'd think that they were made from the wood of the cross.I direct you, good sir, to internet shopping (http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=dungeons+and+dragons+3.5&x=0&y=0). Also, free starter rules (http://www.d20srd.org/).

And one can only assume it's just as easy, if not easier, to acquire 3.5 material through other means of acquiring intellectual content on the internet... Such as other internet book stores!

oxybe
2010-01-20, 06:37 AM
the srd is fine for as a reference tool, but not everyone (raises hand) has access to a laptop, nor a computer in their gaming area (like our FLGS). for actual books, i second "check what your group/people in your area are playing".

the following is preceded by a quite big IMO and the warning that there is a buttload of text since i've been writing this on & off all night and not paying attention:

personally? i like 4th more then 3rd.

there are less of what i call "fiddly bits" in 4th ed then in 3rd and you don't need to regulate & recheck them as often. 4th ed uses a very standardized/streamlined/whatever system: all classes gain roughly the same amount of abilities at the same time and other then a few problematic combos the game is balanced at virtually all levels (levels 29-30 seem to be "F*** it, let's go out with a bang" and is where the game supposedly breaks down. i haven't played that high level, so i can't comment).

3rd ed tends to have a few issues in the early game (the low HP VS enemy damage makes it VERY swingy in the first 1-2 levels, wizard has 2 spells then is a crossbow commoner) while in the late game the sheer versatility the casters have can potentially break the game. i would put the sweet spot somewhere between levels 3-12.

4th ed has more defined classes then 3rd. a class in 4th ed is a pre-packaged archetype that allows for some variation within the theme. the fighter is a "defender" he does this through various abilities that allow him to stick next to an enemy and punishes him for attacking his allies. there are various versions: the weapon+sheild, two weapons+lighter armor, two-handed weapon, ect... and different powers can have additional effects depending on what weapon you use (some powers have a better effect or a rider effect when using a spear as opposed to others), ect... you get the idea.

a class in 3rd ed is harder to define. some classes, like the monk or paladin, are obviously trying to recreate an archetype (the wuxia martial artist & divine warrior respectively) while other classes like the fighter are more "open". if you check the SRD, you'll notice the fighter only gets bonus feats every second level and doesn't actually have class abilities. it's effectively a catch-all "guy with weapon" class and you generally either focus on a weapon or various combat styles.

multiclassing in 4th ed is dabbling in a second class. by taking a few feats (4th ed characters get more feats then a 3rd ed character generally would) you can swap out your normal powers for those of a second class and a minor version of that class's default features. as you level up you can retrain your multiclass feats for higher level powers in your 2nd class. a level 15 fighter (primary)/barbarian(multiclass) is effectively a 15 level fighter with some access to barbarian powers up to level 15. note: you can only multiclass in ONE class, with the single exception of the Bard. there is also an option in the PHB3 (not out yet) for "hybrid" classes, but i don't have access to DDI, which has the preview, so no comment.

multiclassing in 3rd ed is quite different. since each class has it's own level chart, when you gain a level you pick if you want to continue in your current class or grab another. so a fighter 2 /rogue 1 (a level 3 character) has all the abilities of a second level fighter and a first level rogue(2 bonus feats, 1d6 sneak attack, ect... including skill points). this multiclassing is generally to the benefit of the non-magical classes, mainly because the duration & strength of many spells is based on their "caster level", a rogue 6 / wizard 2 (a level 8 character) then, would have all the abilities of a 6th level rogue and a 2nd level wizard... but the duration & strength of those effects are almost negligible.

at levels 11 & 21 in 4th ed, you gain a paragon paths and an epic destiny (though you can chose to wait until later levels to chose them and retroactively get their benefits. note: you cannot retrain these). these add extra abilities in addition to what you would normally get in your class. if you've multiclass, you also have access to any PP & EDs they have access to as though you were that class. so our 15th level fighter/barb, upon hitting level 11, can chose a fighter path or barbarian path. so a Fighter/Barb, choosing the fighter PP Dreadnought, will still have full access to his fighter abilities, can pick a few from the barb list while getting the bonus features from the Dreadnought path.

in 3rd ed you have Prestige Classes. these are generally 5 or 10 level "mini-classes" that have their own prerequisites, usually a certain Base Attack Bonus, "X" amount of ranks in a skill, a cast spells of level "Y" or higher, certain feats or a mix of them all. like multiclassing, when you gain a level you have the option to get a prestige class if you meet the requirements. let's say our Fighter/Rogue is nasty evil fellow who leveled up several times since we last saw him and is now a Fighter 4/Rogue 3 (level 7). he's grabbed the Cleave, Improved Sunder & Power Attack feats quickly as a fighter and his rogue skill points got him 5 ranks in "hide" and 2 in "knowledge:religion". upon gaining his 8th level he's decided to devote himself to the evil god Bane and take the prestige class "blackguard". so he now looks like Fighter 4 / rogue 3 / Blackguard 1, with the combined abilities of all 3 classes up to their respective levels (3 fighter bonus feats, the rogue's 2d6 sneak attack, evasion and all, & the blackguard's Aura of evil, detect good, poison use and level 1 spells. and a bunch of skill points)

3rd ed generally requires a few levels worth of forethought when picking feats & skills, since by default you can't retrain (though many GMs do allow some retraining)... especially if you decide to go into a prestige class. a lot of them have very specific prerequisites so if you want early entry, you need to prepare probably 3 or more levels ahead of time. 4th ed allows some leeway, in that if you notice that a power, feat or trained skill isn't being useful you can retrain out of it at the following level, and the prereqs for a path or destiny are usually "be a character of X class with feature Y or Z power source".

i've DMed both games and i have to say that i'm never GMing 3rd ed again, unless i have literally no other choice. 4th ed's monster creation, treasure distribution, more user-friendly rules and less "what wizard/cleric/druid spells do i need to worry about on this adventure" makes it much easier to run.

my final verdict based on preference: 4th ed.

final verdict overall: play what the locals play. they'll teach you faster then you could learn by yourself in either system.


if you want to demo the game of either version, my sig has the SRD & a link to free 3rd ed modules, as well as the 4th ed "test drive" that has starter rules+pregenerated pcs, a character builder for levels 1-3 if you feel like checking out what a higher level PC is like & a few modules.

IonDragon
2010-01-20, 09:05 AM
"3.5 or 4e?" is a pretty loaded question around these parts and tends to start extremely long off topic threads when it's included with another question. Therefore, I'm not going to express any opinion on the subject.

As for finding a group, as long as it's not expected to be a high powered group you should be fine. Many groups are a mix of high/medium power players, and just about any of them would be glad to help you. My group tends to be toward the higher power side and I love helping new players (I'm not especially good at it, but I love it any way ^^,)

Also, in my experience, the best way to learn is to do. So I think you would learn faster in a group of more experienced people so long as they (or at least one person there) are/is willing to take you under their wing(s).

Another option for learning to play is find an ongoing Play By Post game you think sounds interesting and lurk it for a few chapters. Talk to the GM or one of the players and see if they don't mind helping you learn (Posting in the thread is kinda impolite though, so PM is best). Then, if you don't fully understand something that happened you can copy paste what you don't understand into a PM and ask what's going on.

All of my current online games are on Google Wave(which is really cool and perfect for online gaming) and if you have that, I wouldn't mind adding you to my games and explaining what's going on.

Good luck!

Mongoose87
2010-01-20, 09:53 AM
I direct you, good sir, to internet shopping (http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=dungeons+and+dragons+3.5&x=0&y=0). Also, free starter rules (http://www.d20srd.org/).

And one can only assume it's just as easy, if not easier, to acquire 3.5 material through other means of acquiring intellectual content on the internet... Such as other internet book stores!

Holy iguana on a stick, look how much they want for a new PHB2!

Tyndmyr
2010-01-20, 10:17 AM
Avoid amazon. Ebay generally has better prices. I tallied up my collection, and found Id averaged under $10 a book for it. Almost all after 4e replaced 3.5. It's probably climbed since then, since Ive gotten a coupla books that tend not to go cheaply, and shelled out nearly normal price for them, but still, the average price is pretty good.

Also, you really don't need all the books. Or even any of them. If you're playing pbp, then the SRD works just fine.

3.5 seems to be more popular here. 4e will likely be more popular in game stores, because they're selling books for it. Finding 3.5 games in real life is generally still pretty easy, though, and the popularity of pathfinder, basically a different flavor of 3.5, indicates that it's likely to continue.

2xMachina
2010-01-20, 10:19 AM
Wow. That is really expensive...

1 thing 3.5 has over 4e is the online SRD. If you just want to play PbP and not invest in all the books, the SRD has enough info. You can also 'steal' commonly used spells/tactics, since there's plenty of 3.5 CharOp.

Evard
2010-01-20, 10:35 AM
I love www.d20srd.org and I usually allow anything on there (most) for any 3.5 campy I run. Its easy to get to and everyone has full access to it. Since at least 1 person always has a laptop in my campaigns there is not problem during games when a rule question is brought up...

Sure 4e is what I prefer but 3.5 can be fun too :p

Duke of URL
2010-01-20, 10:44 AM
Duke of URL was recruiting for a 3.5 "Boot Camp" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=138567) for rookie players (i.e. an introduction to basic 3.5 games and play-by-post)... though I'm not sure if recruiting is still open or not.

Alternatively, just check regularly in the Play-by-post sub-forum and wait for a newbie friendly DM to start recruiting (or post your own "newbie looking for game" thread, and hope that kindly DM raises their hand).

I'm actually getting some PM interest for additional DMs, so we can keep this sort of thing running continually without tying up one DM for too long. Once I get the "syllabus" finished and all of my notes transcribed into electronic format, then it can be done on an ongoing/rotating basis.

As for 4e vs. 3.5, because 4e tends to have longer and more tactical combat, I'm of the opinion that its less suited to PbP than 3.5 is. Of course, for games without heavy combat, choice of system matters little in terms of ease/difficulty for PbP.

shadow_archmagi
2010-01-20, 11:22 AM
In keeping with Sstoopidtallkid's post, 4e books are WAY easier to find. With the rarity of certain 3e books, you'd think that they were made from the wood of the cross.

Actually, the first 200 copies of Dieties and Demigods actually were, which is why they had to be recalled.

oxybe
2010-01-20, 12:03 PM
Wow. That is really expensive...

1 thing 3.5 has over 4e is the online SRD. If you just want to play PbP and not invest in all the books, the SRD has enough info. You can also 'steal' commonly used spells/tactics, since there's plenty of 3.5 CharOp.

i dunno, 4th ed does have the up to date DDI. even with only a one month membership, you get full access to all back issues of Dungeon/Dragon they have on there and after you've downloaded the updated character builder, you've got a lot of material you can use.

and since it's all on your harddrive, when the month expires, you still have all your downloaded content you can use.

IMO, for 10$ it's a really good deal for the content you're getting.

Dekkah
2010-01-20, 01:02 PM
i dunno, 4th ed does have the up to date DDI. even with only a one month membership, you get full access to all back issues of Dungeon/Dragon they have on there and after you've downloaded the updated character builder, you've got a lot of material you can use.

and since it's all on your harddrive, when the month expires, you still have all your downloaded content you can use.

IMO, for 10$ it's a really good deal for the content you're getting.

I agree with Oxyde. As a player, you only really need the PHB1 (to learn the basic rules) and one month of DDI to upgrade the builder and your good to go.