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View Full Version : Has anyone ever considered using Pelor the burning hate in a campagin?



Gamerlord
2010-01-20, 02:06 PM
Has anyone actually used The Burning Hate (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19558798/Pelor,_the_Burning_Hate) in a campaign? I use it every now and then as a sort of rumor, that the church of pelor fully denounces, the one time my players investigated they quickly found themselves as sacrifices to an unknown deity bound and gagged by unknown people.

Drakevarg
2010-01-20, 02:11 PM
I haven't used it personally, but I managed to convince the Cleric of Pelor in my group that it was a valid argument.

Optimystik
2010-01-20, 02:45 PM
It's an amusing tangent, but the biggest point of his argument is that Jozan uses Symbol of Pain. It also requires deliberately misreading the Malconvoker and expecting the god to intervene directly every time one of his paladins faces a vampire.

It's a funny diversion but has no place in a campaign.

Vizzerdrix
2010-01-20, 03:01 PM
Oh dang! This just gave me the idea of a Good Ur-Priest that wants to expose the Evil Pelor. Gotta flesh this one out now

Starscream
2010-01-20, 03:21 PM
It's an amusing tangent, but the biggest point of his argument is that Jozan uses Symbol of Pain.

Which is hilarious, because the exact same book features him casting the Good spell "Holy Smite". If the evidence is that he casts both good and evil spells, then really the worst you could claim is that he and his god are neutral.

The PHB also shows Mialee summoning a good aligned Coatl, and Fiendish Codex 1 shows her summoning an evil Nalfeshee. Again, neutrality is the worst you can really ascribe to the characters if every picture of them is "canon".

It's pretty obvious that the illustrators just drew whatever they thought looked cool, or wanted to demonstrate visually. But whatever, epileptic trees are fun.

Optimystik
2010-01-20, 03:29 PM
Really, I think alignment descriptors on spells are ridiculous to begin with, and lead to wonderful inconsistencies like Exalted characters getting Deathwatch on their list (Slayer of Domiel.)


Oh dang! This just gave me the idea of a Good Ur-Priest that wants to expose the Evil Pelor. Gotta flesh this one out now

*facedesk*

Sliver
2010-01-20, 03:34 PM
There are 2 ways to explain Deathwatch.

It's always evil. Like races, meaning most of the time..

Or...

It is a special version of Deathwatch which is good. Like good po- Nah, I won't start that.. Like good mindr- Damn..

deuxhero
2010-01-20, 03:45 PM
I've always had the idea of a planewalker Paladin (in morals/ideals, not class) that believe it and wants to destory Pelor (and Lyonsbane, but that is not the point) because of it. Never would be able to play it on account of likely being epic and the epic rules being so bad.

As for Deathwatch, I prefer the explanation of WoTC being a bunch of idiots (because it also anwsers a lot of other questions.) when they made it [evil] (or when they made [evil] in the first place.

Longcat
2010-01-20, 04:01 PM
As it happens, one of our players is playing an evil cleric of pelor, using the burning hate variant.

Tanuki Tales
2010-01-20, 04:03 PM
I personally have Pelor as merely a facade for Asmodeus in my campaigns.

dyslexicfaser
2010-01-20, 05:06 PM
I put together a Soulbow that pretty much used the concept. There was the church of good and strength (the front, of sorts), but then there were also Inquisitors and Pelor-affiliated assassins.

I believe I called him Pelor, the Burning Sun in Darkness.

KillianHawkeye
2010-01-20, 05:12 PM
The PHB also shows Mialee summoning a good aligned Coatl, and Fiendish Codex 1 shows her summoning an evil Nalfeshee. Again, neutrality is the worst you can really ascribe to the characters if every picture of them is "canon".

As a wizard, Mialee's alignment does not restrict the spells she is able to cast. She can cast either [Good] or [Evil] spells and it won't necessarily tell us anything about her alignment.

Besides, the whole "Jozan casts symbol of pain" thing is a holdover from the 3.0 PHB, in which symbol of pain was merely a particular version of the symbol spell and lacked the [Evil] descriptor.

Gamerlord
2010-01-20, 05:13 PM
As a wizard, Mialee's alignment does not restrict the spells she is able to cast. She can cast either [Good] or [Evil] spells and it won't necessarily tell us anything about her alignment.

Doesn't matter, we have proof she is LN.

Optimystik
2010-01-20, 05:20 PM
As a wizard, Mialee's alignment does not restrict the spells she is able to cast. She can cast either [Good] or [Evil] spells and it won't necessarily tell us anything about her alignment.

In addition, casting aligned spells is called "minor" in both BoVD and FC2.

An evil character has very good reasons to cast Protection from Evil - e.g. if he is summoning Balors. He would have to cast it very often to actually shift alignments.

Ponce
2010-01-20, 05:28 PM
I did, but I neglected to tell the players that I was using The Burning Hate in place of Good Pelor.

Which is to say, no, I have never used The Burning Hate.

:smallwink:

Bibliomancer
2010-01-20, 05:36 PM
Doesn't matter, we have proof she is LN.

Unless those examples in the PHB are generalizations and don't actually represent the characters in the book.

Otherwise, yeah, she's LN, which would account for her summoning various outsiders to get the job done.

Zeta Kai
2010-01-20, 05:38 PM
Has anyone actually used The Burning Hate (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19558798/Pelor,_the_Burning_Hate) in a campaign? I use it every now and then as a sort of rumor, that the church of pelor fully denounces, the one time my players investigated they quickly found themselves as sacrifices to an unknown deity bound and gagged by unknown people.

The concept of an Evil Sun God is used prominently in the Hourglass of Zihaja campaign setting.

KillianHawkeye
2010-01-20, 05:44 PM
Doesn't matter, we have proof she is LN.

I know, I was merely pointing out that Mialee's spell selection isn't pidgeon-holed by her alignment in the same way that Jozan's would be because wizards aren't subject to the same restrictions as clerics. For example, even though she is Lawful Neutral, she could just as easily summon a Slaad as a Formian. Basically, wizards are completely irrelevant to a discussion about the so-called evidence regarding Evil Pelor.

imp_fireball
2010-01-20, 06:59 PM
While somewhat off topic, someone on that thread claimed that the definition of 'paladin' is 'good guy' and that the LE paladin contradicted this.

What's the actual definition of paladin?


1. any one of the 12 legendary peers or knightly champions in attendance on Charlemagne.
2. any knightly or heroic champion.
3. any determined advocate or defender of a noble cause.

Alright, so we know that from this, a paladin is brave and takes on great deeds (heroic, as in 'daring', by the definition), and a good fighter (champion). He may be considered a knight by his peers (discounting the knight class of course), due to his particular fighting discipline and mannerisms.

But #3's definition is hazy. It merely reasserts what D&D says, so lets see what the definition of noble is.

Noble:
Of an exalted moral or mental character or excellence; lofty: a noble thought.

So in essence, someone who aspires to certain standards. But just to be sure...

Exalted:
raised or elevated, as in rank or character; of high station: an exalted personage.

None of this indicates 'good'. Rather, it indicates 'high in position', 'respected', 'competent', which in turn goes well with 'has faith in'. Thusly, it makes sense that LG paladins worship Pelor, because paladin in itself isn't 'good', it's more likely to be associated with 'ordained religious warrior'. Any paladin ignorant enough to believe that being a paladin by nature makes them good as long as they do what their deity tells them will hit it hard when they learn that morals can be defined by external things like 'common sense' and (at least in D&D, depending on the campaign), other gods too.

And in real life, that meant converting saxons to christians and what not. In fact, the paladin is a heavy cavalry unit for most European nations in AoE2: Age of Kings, including the Franks. Franks and Charlemagne go hand in hand.

Good and evil by themselves don't make sense. But positive and negative energy do. Light burns in equal measure as it heals, negative slays in equal measure as it allows for decomposition and the renewing of natural resources.

Fail
2010-01-20, 08:41 PM
Doesn't matter, we have proof she is LN.You doubly don't have that proof. First, because she's canonically TN (see DMG - at least 3.0 DMG and Heroes and Allies, also 3.0, but it doesn't seem to have ever been contradicted), which would allow her to summon whatever even if she was a cleric. Second, because wizards don't have alignment restrictions on their spells - even with using [alignment] spells being an [alignment] act, that doesn't change anyone's alignment upon having been done a number of times potentially as low as one. Else, people would change alignment hourly.

Which might actually be the most sensical ruling on alignment.

Other than ... not using it, of course.

Gamerlord
2010-01-20, 09:06 PM
You doubly don't have that proof. First, because she's canonically TN (see DMG - at least 3.0 DMG and Heroes and Allies, also 3.0, but it doesn't seem to have ever been contradicted), which would allow her to summon whatever even if she was a cleric. Second, because wizards don't have alignment restrictions on their spells - even with using [alignment] spells being an [alignment] act, that doesn't change anyone's alignment upon having been done a number of times potentially as low as one. Else, people would change alignment hourly.

Which might actually be the most sensical ruling on alignment.

Other than ... not using it, of course.
The PHB 3.5 lists her as an example of lawful neutral.

Mewtarthio
2010-01-20, 09:27 PM
It is a special version of Deathwatch which is good. Like good po- Nah, I won't start that.. Like good mindr- Damn..

For extra fun: The Repose domain is intended for Good clerics who wish to protect the sanctity of the dead. It's first domain spell? Deathwatch. That's right: You can't use the very power your god is trying to give you without falling.

Also, regarding the good version of mindrape, I take it you've never heard of a certain Exalted spell that imprisons victim's souls and brainwashes them...

dspeyer
2010-01-20, 09:35 PM
Which is hilarious, because the exact same book features him casting the Good spell "Holy Smite". If the evidence is that he casts both good and evil spells, then really the worst you could claim is that he and his god are neutral.

The PHB also shows Mialee summoning a good aligned Coatl, and Fiendish Codex 1 shows her summoning an evil Nalfeshee. Again, neutrality is the worst you can really ascribe to the characters if every picture of them is "canon".

Does anyone else think True Neutral is the most appropriate alignment for a sun god anyway? He's affiliated with nature (especially plants, which are always neutral). He's probably a little vague on anything less than a thousand miles across. I can totally see him looking after electrodynamics, celestial motion, very basic ecology and other concerns too big to be good or evil.

Foryn Gilnith
2010-01-20, 09:41 PM
It is a special version of Deathwatch which is good. Like good po- Nah, I won't start that.. Like good mindr- Damn..

Unless you're being meta, I sense that humor is going undetected.

Lamech
2010-01-20, 09:46 PM
For extra fun: The Repose domain is intended for Good clerics who wish to protect the sanctity of the dead. It's first domain spell? Deathwatch. That's right: You can't use the very power your god is trying to give you without falling.

Also, regarding the good version of mindrape, I take it you've never heard of a certain Exalted spell that imprisons victim's souls and brainwashes them...

Okay why do people keep on bringing up sanctify the wicked? What about the class that magically compells people to become good, but not just any good; it forces them to be lawful good. It a freaking exhalted prestige class. How does sanctify the wicked even come close to that?

Tavar
2010-01-20, 09:56 PM
What class is that?

And people bring up Stanctify the wicked because it's so similar to two other spells, the insanely evil Mindrape and the neutral Programed Amnesia. It's an example how three spells do very similar things, and are classified as three different alignments. Clearly, Wizards of the Coast just doesn't care.

Frosty
2010-01-20, 10:39 PM
My next campaign will involve The Burning Hate, and will set the characters up for a sequel.

A group of adventurers have been asked by Pelor to descend into Hell to steal Asmodeus's copy of the Pact Primeval (Pelor has also secretly tasked another group with stealing Mechanus's copy), his explanation being that with all the copies of the Pact Primeval, Pelor can change the contract language, closing the loophole that allows Asmodeus and his lackeys to be evil/encourage evil, etc.

When the PCs finally succeed on their epic mission, they will learn that Pelor and Asmodeus were in it together this whole time, and the whole mission was part of a big bluff check against the other good deities, and now Big P and Big A changes the language of the Pact to something even worse than before.

Cue next campaign, where the objective is to destroy Pelor.

taltamir
2010-01-20, 10:52 PM
this is awesome...


Which is hilarious, because the exact same book features him casting the Good spell "Holy Smite". If the evidence is that he casts both good and evil spells, then really the worst you could claim is that he and his god are neutral.

The PHB also shows Mialee summoning a good aligned Coatl, and Fiendish Codex 1 shows her summoning an evil Nalfeshee. Again, neutrality is the worst you can really ascribe to the characters if every picture of them is "canon".
By RAW, a wizard who casts [evil] or [good] spells only risk an alignment shift into neutral. (which is unlikely to happen via a single casting)

A cleric simply can't cast any spell with an alignment descriptor opposite to his own...

chiasaur11
2010-01-20, 10:55 PM
Obviously, Pelor has a good for nothing brother who he lets take the job from time to time.

Starscream
2010-01-20, 11:00 PM
Obviously, Pelor has a good for nothing brother who he lets take the job from time to time.

Or a split personality. That'd be a good plot hook: "Deliver these holy meds of +5 sanity to the sun god or her turns evil."

Tavar
2010-01-20, 11:13 PM
Win.

Can you run this on the forums? Please?

Frosty
2010-01-21, 12:06 AM
Can you run this on the forums? Please?

I am actually considering it. However, this campaign will take...a LONG time (given that it IS play by post) as I plan to run the group from level 14 through level 24, with my own custom epic rules. I will want a GOOD core group of players (likely no bigger four) that will stay the entire time.

taltamir
2010-01-21, 12:46 AM
Or a split personality. That'd be a good plot hook: "Deliver these holy meds of +5 sanity to the sun god or her turns evil."

did you mean to say her? evil personality of palor is female then? :P

Kris Strife
2010-01-21, 06:51 AM
What class is that?

And people bring up Stanctify the wicked because it's so similar to two other spells, the insanely evil Mindrape and the neutral Programed Amnesia. It's an example how three spells do very similar things, and are classified as three different alignments. Clearly, Wizards of the Coast just doesn't care.

Sanctify the Wicked does not alter the subjects memories or personalities. It simply puts them in time out and makes them think about all the evil things they've done in a way that makes them understand the victim's pain. For an entire year. Its supposed to open their eyes and make them want to repent for their past deeds and become good.

Optimystik
2010-01-21, 07:49 AM
Unless you're being meta, I sense that humor is going undetected.

I think the incomplete words are "poison" and "mindrape."

The so-called "good versions" of which are "ravages" and "sanctify the wicked" respectively.


Sanctify the Wicked does not alter the subjects memories or personalities. It simply puts them in time out and makes them think about all the evil things they've done in a way that makes them understand the victim's pain. For an entire year. Its supposed to open their eyes and make them want to repent for their past deeds and become good.

The ethically questionable aspect of it is that it has a 100% success rate, so long as they are kept sequestered in the gem for that whole year. If it had some built-in chance of failure, I don't think it would engender the level of debate it has.

Prime32
2010-01-21, 07:59 AM
I considered, if I ever did some kind of parody of the iconic 3e adventurers, making Jozan bipolar. Normally kind and saintly, but on occasion he would turn into a foul-mouthed berserker.

Oh, and Mialee was a gay male elf.

Optimystik
2010-01-21, 08:03 AM
Oh, and Mialee was a gay male elf.

Redundant redundancy is redundant.

Eldariel
2010-01-21, 08:23 AM
Mialee was a gay male elf.

No, she was a female mutant frog.

Gnorman
2010-01-21, 08:54 AM
No, she was a female mutant frog.

Can't she be all six?

Some kind of... hermaphroditic mutated half-elf half-frog hybrid with vague, poorly-defined sexual predilections?

Random832
2010-01-21, 09:22 AM
Besides, the whole "Jozan casts symbol of pain" thing is a holdover from the 3.0 PHB, in which symbol of pain was merely a particular version of the symbol spell and lacked the [Evil] descriptor.

It's still difficult to envision a situation in which casting it is not an evil act.

Kris Strife
2010-01-21, 09:42 AM
Can't she be all six?

Some kind of... hermaphroditic mutated half-elf half-frog hybrid with vague, poorly-defined sexual predilections?

Were-Slaad?

Narazil
2010-01-21, 09:54 AM
It's still difficult to envision a situation in which casting it is not an evil act.
A group of your confused allies is about to slaughter an innocent little girl. You, not wanting to kill your confused allies, cast a Symbol of Pain spell in order to stop them, but not kill them.
Right? :smallwink:

Set
2010-01-21, 10:32 AM
A group of your confused allies is about to slaughter an innocent little girl. You, not wanting to kill your confused allies, cast a Symbol of Pain spell in order to stop them, but not kill them.
Right? :smallwink:

Pretty much.

Deathwatch is a great spell for a good-aligned healer, to determine who needs healing *immediately* and who can wait a moment, allowing him to save the maximum amount of lives.

Hobgoblins are attacking the village and they don't have an able-bodied man left alive? Animate Dead can raise up their fallen to save those who have survived, and the Cleric can then send them right to their graves after they have saved the lives of their families.

Meanwhile, a neutral Cleric can Summon Monster to call up a Hound Archon and order it to torture a busload of nuns and orphans to death, causing the poor celestial extreme distress, and, it's a [Good] spell, no matter how vile a use he puts it to, meaning that he runs the horrible risk of *turning good* if he does it too often.

Any subsystem that treats alignment as some mechanical thing that can be changed by casting this spell or that cheapens the entire concept and makes it pointless and silly.

"Oh, I cast Animate Dead today. That's 3 levels of [Evil], so I'll have to Summon a Celestial Bee (and order it to sting a puppy, killing both the angel-bee and the puppy) and cast Protection from Evil, to cancel out those 3 levels of [Evil] with 3 levels of [Good]. And then I'll say three 'Hail Pelors' and go on a pilgrimage to the brothel to attempt to 'convert the wicked.' Wouldn't want anyone to think I'm gaming the system..."

Meh. Silly alignment descriptors.

Pelor the Burning Hate is a pretty whacky notion 'though. I wouldn't use it in a standard campaign, but in a game where Asmodeus had whacked and replaced him (or just corrupted the heck out him), yeah, that could be neat.

Mialee is a token. She's the Iconic Transsexual. Naull (http://www.toddlockwood.com/galleries/concept/01/wizard_female.shtml) is cooler (although still a bit manly).

taltamir
2010-01-21, 11:18 AM
The ethically questionable aspect of it is that it has a 100% success rate, so long as they are kept sequestered in the gem for that whole year. If it had some built-in chance of failure, I don't think it would engender the level of debate it has.

thats wotc designers being ignorant and heavy handed with alignment, thats all.
"if only bad people understood what they were really doing they wouldn't be bad"... is the generalization they work upon. This is why it has a 100% success rate, because every single bad person ever according to WOTC (or rather, the employee who wrote said spell) simply doesn't fully comprehend what they are doing.


Any subsystem that treats alignment as some mechanical thing that can be changed by casting this spell or that cheapens the entire concept and makes it pointless and silly.

reminds me of fable 2...
eat some celery / tofu and you will be back to 100% good, purity, and sculpted physique... eat some meat you become evil, corrupt, and fat.

Did you just sacrifice an innocent for your own benefit? not to worry, 5 celery sticks will take care of that...

Did you just forgo your own health to save an innocent? well too bad, we saw you eating a meat pie there, you are now evil!!!!

Frosty
2010-01-21, 04:10 PM
Can you run this on the forums? Please?

I think I will be putting up a recruitment thread in a day or two.

Ravens_cry
2010-01-22, 03:07 AM
I wouldn't use Pelor specifically, but I think it would make for an interesting sect of an agricultural sun god in a world where the gods are less self evident and belief is more faith based.

MickJay
2010-01-22, 09:34 AM
The ethically questionable aspect of it is that it has a 100% success rate, so long as they are kept sequestered in the gem for that whole year. If it had some built-in chance of failure, I don't think it would engender the level of debate it has.

Or it just proves that the (both arbitrary and objective, of course) Good is the natural state of things and Evil is merely its corruption. Some of the fluff may say otherwise, but the spell is [Good], so we're not talking about mere fluff, we have a direct confirmation from RAW. :smalltongue:

Honestly, why did they ever decide to expand from the good old "Chaotic-Neutral-Evil" alignment system?

Optimystik
2010-01-22, 10:17 AM
Or it just proves that the (both arbitrary and objective, of course) Good is the natural state of things and Evil is merely its corruption. Some of the fluff may say otherwise, but the spell is [Good], so we're not talking about mere fluff, we have a direct confirmation from RAW. :smalltongue:

This is my rationalization, given that:

a) The spell does not work on soulless creatures, or [Evil] subtyped outsiders;
b) All souls come from the good-aligned Positive Energy Plane, according to BoED.

So BoED leans heavily in favor of "all souls start Good, and can be returned to that state, regardless of what heinous acts the creature itself has committed in life" - hence it's emphasis on redemption being superior to destruction of Evil - and this is the assumption Sanctify rests on.

But mostly, it's a way to play Sanctified critters in your campaigns - like an Exalted Illithid or Red Dragon.

awa
2010-01-22, 11:06 AM
The important thing is not just what the spell does but how it does it mind rape is evil and programed amnesia is not, not becuase of the memories you change but in the way you change them. Sanctify the wicked (and other abbilities in book of exalted deeds) assumes that almost all beings are inherently good and just need to be shown the wrongness of their ways it doesn't matter how evil they are you just need to put them in time out and let them think about what theyve done.

Other spells with the evil descriptor may also have not immediately obvious effects that make them evil beyond their pure mechanical effects maby creating zombies in someway harms the soul of the individual summoned thus negating any good you might do with said zombie.

Now of course im not saying a dm has to use alignment on some spells or even any. Deathwatch for example seems like their should at the very minimum be a non aligned version of a spell. It seems like an ability a healer would want to have acses to