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View Full Version : [3.5] How would a female eunuch work? A new take on an amazon nation?



Pika...
2010-01-20, 03:26 PM
So as a curve ball to a mostly male group I am thinking of having a kingdom/major power be semi-Amazonian in nature, though more realistic (no ten foot women to compensate for lesser high body strength in combat). Part of this being princes and male harems needing eunuchs of their own.

So, how would this work exactly in a day without modern surgical technology?


ps. Any ideas or suggestions you might all suggest for such a nation consisting of females of various races?

Johel
2010-01-20, 03:28 PM
So as a curve ball to a mostly male group I am thinking of having a kingdom/major power be semi-Amazonian in nature, though more realistic (no ten foot women to compensate for lesser high body strength in combat). Part of this being princes and male harems needing eunuchs of their own.

So, how would this work exactly in a day without modern surgical technology?


ps. Any ideas or suggestions you might all suggest for such a nation consisting of females of various races?

Chastity belt ?

Pika...
2010-01-20, 03:35 PM
Chastity belt ?

Doubt they would be very effective.

Imagine the ranks he/they would put in Pick Locks. :/

Thalnawr
2010-01-20, 03:37 PM
Why do there need to be female eunuchs guarding/serving the male harem/princes? Wouldn't it make more sense just to use male eunuchs?

Yuki Akuma
2010-01-20, 03:39 PM
...Magic?

I'm sure a "Strike Barren" spell would be simple enough. Probably Necromancy.

Sliver
2010-01-20, 03:39 PM
They have a law for males entering the city having to wear belts of gender change (or how was it called) during their entire visit! (goes away without contributing..)

ex cathedra
2010-01-20, 03:45 PM
Several modern day societies take part in an act that might be what you're looking for, but it's a topic I don't want to bring here, and I'm not sure if it falls under the board rules against posting political, religious, or sexual topics.

It's a rather terrible practice, in my opinion, but it doesn't necessarily require any advanced surgical practices. It most commonly occurs in certain parts of Asia and Africa.

Blackfang108
2010-01-20, 03:47 PM
Several modern day societies take part in an act that might be what you're looking for, but it's a topic I don't want to bring here, and I'm not sure if it falls under the board rules against posting political, religious, or sexual topics.

It's a rather terrible practice, in my opinion, but it doesn't necessarily require any advanced surgical practices. It most commonly occurs in certain parts of Asia and Africa.

That... could work.

Sorta.

I have a feeling adding anything more would be a Bad Idea(tm)

Serenity
2010-01-20, 03:47 PM
Alternately, some kind of geas or soemthing similar to the Mark of Justice would do the trick.

Tavar
2010-01-20, 03:48 PM
...Magic?

I'm sure a "Strike Barren" spell would be simple enough. Probably Necromancy.

Or, if you don't want to have a custom spell, have them do surgery, and use magic to fix the aftermath. Remember, only high level magic like regenerate actually replaces lost organs.

sonofzeal
2010-01-20, 03:58 PM
I believe there's a feat for this in BoED (Vow of Chastity), and one in BoEF (Chaste Life). And I know there's a prestige class in BoEF (Harem Protector), that both males and females can enter.

Johel
2010-01-20, 03:59 PM
For an Amazonian Nation, I offer you :
The Lawful Evil (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LawfulEvil)+ Proud Warrior Race (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ProudWarriorRaceGuy) + Girls Love (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GirlsLove) + Warrior Poet (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/WarriorPoet) :
The Amazon Nation consists exclusively of females. They worship a LE Goddess and consider themselves superior to the non-amazonian nations of their race. They also see all males as brutish, clumsy, yet sometimes attractive specimens that exist solely to be use for heavy labor, menial task, meatshield and reproduction. Basically, cattle with benefit...

Their society is very traditionalist, with a military mindset bend on domination but not on conquest. When they go to war, it is to crush their enemies and make sure said enemies don't become stronger than the Amazon Nation. They burn and kill, maybe ask for a tribute, but they don't conquer. Why would you set a garrison and bother to rule primitives when fear alone is enough to keep them in check ?

When they are at it, a good deal of plunder occurs, including the capture of men. However, it is not a priority, as very few men are actually needed for reproduction and the natural 50/50 birth occurence is more than enough to produce slaves. Enemy women, while respected, have no value except as temporary hostages, as they aren't from the Amazonian Nation and are supposed to be inferior anyway.

In peace time, they focus on creative tasks only, leaving the menial jobs for males. Arts, including Martial Arts and Arcane Arts, are very prized and a Amazon woman won't be respected if she doesn't master at least a few artistic discipline.

Since they see all men as inferior and a good deal of females as such too, one can expect lesbian relationship to skyrocket and even be encouraged ("love, pleasure and reproduction are 3 different things, my dear").

EDIT : +1 for the Geas idea. :smallsmile:
A STD might be more easy, though.
"-See that Eunuch ? You don't want to pour your biscuit in her."

Godskook
2010-01-20, 04:04 PM
Ugh.

The concept of Eunuch is one that doesn't translate all that well across the gender gap. The point of making a Eunuch to guard a harem was to ensure that A)You'd have a guard that was powerful enough to protect the harem and B)that you knew for a fact that any child produced in the harem was not fathered by the guard. (B) just doesn't transfer because even if the male harems were guarded by female guards, the female guards couldn't get the harem men 'pregnant'.

Essentially, 'eunuch' is the answer to the question: "How do I post guards for my wives/concubines and still know which kids are mine?" So before you bring a eunuch-like practice into your amazon culture, figure out what the question was that produced the 'female eunuch', cause it isn't the same one that produced the 'male eunuch'.

Grumman
2010-01-20, 04:05 PM
Who needs eunuches when you have Dread Guard?

Ravens_cry
2010-01-20, 04:12 PM
Who needs eunuches when you have Dread Guard?
Two words.
Lich. Loved. (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Lich_Loved,all)

Armoury99
2010-01-20, 04:25 PM
The concept of Eunuch is one that doesn't translate all that well across the gender gap. The point of making a Eunuch to guard a harem was to ensure that A)You'd have a guard that was powerful enough to protect the harem and B)that you knew for a fact that any child produced in the harem was not fathered by the guard. (B) just doesn't transfer because even if the male harems were guarded by female guards, the female guards couldn't get the harem men 'pregnant'.

Godskook's about nailed it with this, although trying to think like a harem-owning amazon Princess for a moment, I might object to female guards as there could still be 'hanky-panky' - stealing the, err, potency of my male breeding stock. :smallsmile:

Male guards make more sense from this prospective... barring the chance for more hanky panky by guards who like that sort of thing, but eunuchry - is that even a word? - should do the trick nicely. To be absolutely sure, use males of a species that can't interbreed with amazon women (say dwarves), or better yet use undead, constructs, or outsiders without the appropraite plumming - plus tons of magical wards, of course.

Grumman
2010-01-20, 04:29 PM
Two words.
Lich. Loved. (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Lich_Loved,all)
Dread Guard are animated suits of armour, not undead. Even if they were undead, I'd assume that some kinds of undead are rather unsuitable for such things.

Seatbelt
2010-01-20, 04:30 PM
Its too bad that its not even a particularly useful feat.

FoE
2010-01-20, 04:35 PM
Eunuchs by definition are castrated men. You cannot have female eunuchs.

There is a similar procedure that robs women of sexual pleasure, if not making them incapable of having sex. But why do that to women when you could achieve the same result with male guards?

archon_huskie
2010-01-20, 04:40 PM
Several modern day societies take part in an act that might be what you're looking for, but it's a topic I don't want to bring here, and I'm not sure if it falls under the board rules against posting political, religious, or sexual topics.

It's a rather terrible practice, in my opinion, but it doesn't necessarily require any advanced surgical practices. It most commonly occurs in certain parts of Asia and Africa.

That would not work. the reason that male eunuches are turned into eunuches is so that the eunuches give up the ability to father children. In Imperial China, this meant that the Emperor did not have to work about his servants plotting to over throw his dynasty and starting their own. Thus eliminating potential rivals. I think the reason for Harem guards is obvious.

With what you are thinking of, it is still possible to have children. It's just that the scarring from the procedure causes complications during birth resulting in problems for both mother and child (that area needs to be flexible. Scar tissue is unflexible and ridgid. newborn heads are squishy).

So in other words, you need something a little more drastic than that particular mutilation to make female eunuches. I'd go with magic myself.

Kobold-Bard
2010-01-20, 04:45 PM
Cursed Orgasm(?) from Book of Erotic Fantasy. IIRC deals a shed load of d6's next time you have an orgasm, more than enough to kill an NPC. Make it an occupational requirement for all guards to have it cast on them.

Lysander
2010-01-20, 04:49 PM
Explosive Runes underpants.

Kobold-Bard
2010-01-20, 04:50 PM
Explosive Runes underpants.

Same concept as mine, but yours is far more hilarious. Damn you :smalltongue:

Poil
2010-01-20, 04:56 PM
Cursed Orgasm(?) from Book of Erotic Fantasy. IIRC deals a shed load of d6's next time you have an orgasm, more than enough to kill an NPC. Make it an occupational requirement for all guards to have it cast on them.

The spell Impotency from the same book would probably work the best, it makes women completely frigid. Just have a wizard or another spellcaster inspect any guards as they go on duty to check that it's still on.

Bibliomancer
2010-01-20, 04:56 PM
Male guards make more sense from this prospective... barring the chance for more hanky panky by guards who like that sort of thing, but eunuchry - is that even a word? - should do the trick nicely. To be absolutely sure, use males of a species that can't interbreed with amazon women (say dwarves), or better yet use undead, constructs, or outsiders without the appropraite plumming - plus tons of magical wards, of course.

The problem with this is that in a female dominated society, you would not want ANY males at all to have combat experience, for the same reason that historical figures did not train female guards for their concubines. They a) wouldn't fit in with society and b) would be less effective than female guards, assuming that in this society females are the better fighters (which is why they are in charge).

A simple nonless-sadistic magic alternative would be to use temporary belts of reverse gender that can only be deactivated by the owner of the harem.

Shademan
2010-01-20, 05:01 PM
Just a geas. sheez. simple as that.
Each amazon harem guard have a clear mark of hands-off on their forehead.
A special kind of geas that not only strikes the guard but the man-concubine too.
Shrivel their happy-spots like crisp little raisins or something.
can be healed.

ShadowsGrnEyes
2010-01-20, 05:04 PM
A contingency spell might work too. . . make the contingency "willinging involve in hanky panky with the harem" and poof you can have the guard explode. . . heck you could cast it on the harem members rather than the guards. . . nothing will keep a guards hands of the pretty boys like the knowledge that to do so would involve the recieving end of a targeted disintegrate spell. . .

Xzeno
2010-01-20, 05:14 PM
All this talk of magic got me thinking... what's wrong with good ol' fashion threats of horrific, painful death? Pregnant guards die horribly. Concubines caught with guards die horribly. Guards who aren't pregnant but are caught with concubines should be punished with a slap on the wrist to reinforce the prevalent sexism. That's my advice.

Brendan
2010-01-20, 05:34 PM
Permanancied Blade Barrier? It does not do damage to the door it is blade-blocking, and thus feasibly could work? most likely not.

Sebastian
2010-01-20, 05:40 PM
Explosive Runes underpants.

Ring of shocking grasp.

As a piercing.

I let you figure where'd you put it. ;)

bosssmiley
2010-01-20, 05:44 PM
Why keep a separate cadre of guards when internal policing is soooo much cheaper, easier and more efficient from an oppression standpoint. Simply recruit certain inmates to act as guards and/or informers. Any screw-ups (no pun intended), and they lose their privileged position as trustees/snitches.

Carrot for the unfavoured ("Someday I can have his perks"), constant pressure on the elect ("They all want my perks"), and paranoid distrust across the board extra free. :smallwink:

Tengu_temp
2010-01-20, 05:47 PM
All this talk about eunuchs and BoEF reminded me about the feat that means you're impotent/castrated/whatever. Yes, feat - that book came out before traits. Worst feat ever?

Godskook
2010-01-20, 05:51 PM
Godskook's about nailed it with this,

No puns, please.

Susano-wo
2010-01-20, 05:53 PM
I agree with the threats of violent death thing. The guards would be required to be single, and if they were found pregnant, they would be executed, either before or after child birth, depending on the nastiness of society and the attitudes on children, and sins of the father...err, mother.

nightwyrm
2010-01-20, 05:53 PM
Since it's D&D, why not just use guards from an asexual species or at least one that can't copulate with humans. Or just use golems.

imp_fireball
2010-01-20, 05:55 PM
Not to be crude, but in some real world cultures, they have been known to...

Sew up the naughty parts. Yah.

And chiefly for the 'no sex' reason.

Godskook
2010-01-20, 06:04 PM
Not to be crude, but in some real world cultures, they have been known to...

Sew up the naughty parts. Yah.

And chiefly for the 'no sex' reason.

I hate sounding politically correct, but people don't have 'naughty' parts. In keeping with the SFW tone we're trying to set so far, 'private parts' would work, as would 'pubic area', or in a pinch, 'sexual organs'.

imp_fireball
2010-01-20, 06:07 PM
A contingency spell might work too. . . make the contingency "willinging involve in hanky panky with the harem" and poof you can have the guard explode. . . heck you could cast it on the harem members rather than the guards. . . nothing will keep a guards hands of the pretty boys like the knowledge that to do so would involve the recieving end of a targeted disintegrate spell. . .

Sperm of disintegration? o.0


I hate sounding politically correct, but people don't have 'naughty' parts. In keeping with the SFW tone we're trying to set so far, 'private parts' would work, as would 'pubic area', or in a pinch, 'sexual organs'.

Or 'happy parts', 'no no parts', 'down there', 'where the sun don't shine', 'eggs and hanky', etc. Doesn't really matter what you call them, as long as it's not the real technical word. The technical word would be more PC, imo.

Bibliomancer
2010-01-20, 06:11 PM
Since it's D&D, why not just use guards from an asexual species or at least one that can't copulate with humans. Or just use golems.

Not a bad idea but

1) Golems are expensive

2)They're probably xenophobic and/or distrust asexual creatures as "half male"

3)In a warrior society there wouldn't be enough magic around to waste a significant fraction of it on magical constructs, and most of the nobility would probably try to keep harems

Alternative idea:

Perhaps the harem is owned by the entire city, with the upper classes getting priority access and everything taking shifts to protect it. This would minimize the number of useless people in the society, while giving everyone a reason to protect the building.

Grumman
2010-01-20, 06:19 PM
1) Golems are expensive
That's why I suggested Dread Guard: you can get four Dread Guard for the cost of one Flesh Golem, the cheapest of the golems.


2)They're probably xenophobic and/or distrust asexual creatures as "half male"
I disagree - I see such a view as quite unlikely.

Debihuman
2010-01-20, 06:25 PM
Why not just go with menopausal guards? Sure they'd be a bit older, but they wouldn't be viewed as rivals either. Presumably a male concubine could lose interest if his jailer were more interesting than his queen.

Debby

Vizzerdrix
2010-01-20, 06:26 PM
This topic reminds me of bees ^_^ I like bees. Oooh! a werebee! I must make this.

EDIT: I stand corrected and shall now cut off a finger in penance.

Oh, and on the subject of guards, Just make sure they are Lawful, and one of their codes is "I shan't hump thy master's property."

Hunter Noventa
2010-01-20, 06:31 PM
I'm going to say this once, as calm as I can... LIIIES!:smallfurious: Filthy dirty Lies!

Several constructs are cheaper than flesh golems, Such as Effigy creatures

But they aren't GOLEMS, per se, which make terribly effective guardians, what withthat immunity to most magic and all that.

Zeful
2010-01-20, 06:44 PM
Part of this being princes and male harems needing eunuchs of their own.

Why would they? The only reason eunuchs existed was to eliminate the potential for someone other than the Emperor/King/Baron/what have you getting someone pregnant and screwing with succession. In a female dominated society that problem evaporates, as other women getting pregnant from the Male Harem has zero effect on succession. Guards would be there to ensure that everybody that goes in comes back out again, and to ensure the health and safety of the harem. Princes (if they were part of the succession at all, which with an Amazonian culture isn't a given) would probably be paired with an older guard at birth, preferably someone who's gone through menopause to eliminate the possibility of poorly timed sex screwing with succession (or in a more sexually egalitarian society, the woman's children would simply never inherent the throne).

Grumman
2010-01-20, 06:47 PM
Several constructs are cheaper than flesh golems, Such as Effigy creatures.
Yeah, or Dread Guard. You know, the construct which is cheaper than an effigy, smarter than an effigy and comes with weapons and armour automatically.

Kelb_Panthera
2010-01-20, 06:47 PM
If price is an issue, how about effigies (CA pg. 151) of human guards that simply aren't anatomically correct. They're cheap, and if you don't want to stick too strictly to raw I don't see why adding a few extra HD to get some better abilities would be a problem. Or for that matter Homonculi are another magically constructed option.

Edit: Ninja'd. Where can I find Dread Guards? I'm curious about them now.

Vizzerdrix
2010-01-20, 06:52 PM
Yeah, or Dread Guard. You know, the construct which is cheaper than an effigy, smarter than an effigy and comes with weapons and armour automatically.

But is a sinnful, vile filthy undead? That eats babies and harem men for fun? Yeah I know it. They sunk Atlantis, along with all the other filthy undead, then went on to cancel Firefly. And they hate kitties and puppies. And they steal peoples medicine for fun.


Don't use undead.

Heliomance
2010-01-20, 06:58 PM
Explosive Runes underpants.

Prismatic Chastity Belt.

It's a spell, I kid you not. It's in Nymphology: the Book of Blue Magic.

Randel
2010-01-20, 08:00 PM
Get the males to guard eachother? If this is some sort of female dominated society where men are treated as cattle with 'perks' then it doesn't make much sense to keep them in a harem.

Men on average are stronger than women (though that could change after generations of women favoring weaker men or a lifetime of men not doing any heavy lifting) so it would make sense to put some of them to work.

There could be various 'ranks' of males in the society.

Beasts of Burden are the lowest rank (not counting the ones in jail or something), pretty much they work all day and pretty much never get anything in the way of 'action' since no self-respecting woman would sully herself with him (if he tries anything he's going to be in big trouble). Quite a few of them are eunuchs.

Servants are a bit higher up, they do more skilled jobs (less back breaking) and get better treatment. They may occasionally make friends with a woman who treats him with respect and if he's really lucky maybe a kiss or better.

Valets are somewhat like butlers. They oversee the servants and help their mistresses out. If he's lucky his Mistress will treat him on a first name basis and 'celebrate' when she's in the mood. If the Valet cheats on her... then he's obviously an idiot because the lesser servants may see about exposing him and that could get him fired and banished from the household where he drops down to 'Beast of Burden'. Mistresses then choose among the loyal Servants and promote them to Valet (or otherwise replace him some other way).

Pretty Boys are the dedicated lovemakers of the male population. They have some magic used on them to ensure they are free of STDs and don't get women pregnant (though it doesn't have to be magic, adequate protection, care and a little surgery could do just as well). Their whole 'job' is to keep women satisfied and happy. A Pretty Boy who doesn't do his job well, upsets the wrong woman, or 'cheats' on the wrong woman is liable to lose his position quickly (Pretty Boys are notorious for ratting eachother out to gain the favor of the women around them. Its like members of a court, they know how to speak and act nicely but can backstab like the best of them... its part of their cultural expectations and why the women warriors can feel so superior to them). Also, a Pretty Boy who gets an STD or is otherwise unable to fulfill his function gets kicked down to Beast of Burden.

Bulls are those few men of good breeding who provide the 'genetic stock' for the population. Often the sons of great warriors, they may have proven themselves in some great respect. Generally they work with the women warriors, helping maintain weapons, cooking and cleaning for them, occasionally sitting in on meetings and contributing to meetings (despite their society being female dominated, the Amazons know that many other societies have men as the dominant gender... Bulls are the men trusted to go to other societies and examine them the way the Amazons themselves can't). Bulls also help in training and can spar with the female soldiers (both to help keep the girls in shape to fight trained soldier men and to make sure he can fight... and by extension father good soldiers). Any woman who wants to get pregnent then seeks out a Bull. Unlike Pretty Boys, Bulls are actually sought out because they have usefull characteristics. Bulls only fall out of favor if they mess up really bad or offend the wrong woman (or get horribly crippled in a fight), even then they tend to get demoted to Servant at worse but often become Valets when they 'go out of style'.




Not really a complete thing, but the basic idea is the men have to earn the right to reproduce and the women tend to only choose the very best. If one of them decides to cheat on his 'owner' then he's in trouble... so its not so much a question of having female eunuchs guarding a harem of males, its more like having the males toil all day working and his 'owner' saying "If I hear about you sleeping around I'll make a eunuch out of you!"

Rather cruel, yes. But... on average not much worse than how many societies used to treat women.