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nekomata2
2010-01-20, 07:15 PM
The Succubus monster progression from Savage Species. Is it any good? Or what can you do with it? I was thinking about using it in a game, starting at 8th level. Being underpowered is hardly an issue, but not something I like personally. So any advice, opinions, etc?

Grumman
2010-01-20, 07:19 PM
What do you want out of it? Is it something you could mimic with some cheaper Race+Class combination?

Kurald Galain
2010-01-20, 07:20 PM
The Succubus monster progression from Savage Species. Is it any good? Or what can you do with it?

Well, as they say, there's friendly contact with an evil outsider, and then there's friendly contact with an evil outsider...

nekomata2
2010-01-20, 07:21 PM
Nothing in particular. One of the players is playing a Barghest, so I was looking at the Savage Progressions, saw Succubus, and went "well, maybe" if its not worthless. So I was seeing what people thought of it.

Optimystik
2010-01-20, 07:22 PM
Well, as they say, there's friendly contact with an evil outsider, and then there's friendly contact with an evil outsider...

If your character needs to literally be an evil incarnation of illicit sex to get laid, s/he's doin' it wrong.

Stompy
2010-01-20, 07:27 PM
Succubi have two huge abilities going for them:

-Huge inherent Charisma: With a +16 racial bonus, Succubi are VERY charismatic. I knew someone in an epic game that went as a Succubus Paladin.

EDIT: I would try to get as many CHA-based abilities as I could. My first thought would be Paladin 2/MonkY/SorcererZ(?) and then take the feat that makes the monk AC bonus based off of CHA instead.

CHA-based Charm Monster at-will: This starts at DC 22. Spam it on every important person wizard you meet (duration 1 day/level) until 20 concurrent charms are on them. Then, with proper bluff and diplomacy, you can have your own wizard army that do most of the things you want them to do!

Runestar
2010-01-20, 07:41 PM
My key concern would be what to do after succubus. I can't think of any class which complements it well. It is literally a dead end class.

It should be fun for the 12 lvs of the savage progression. Afterwards...

BenTheJester
2010-01-20, 07:54 PM
They have 6RHD and 6 LA, which makes them quite bad. Although, if you can take the Mark of Nessus(good luck roleplaying it so you can pass as a servant of Asmodeus), it makes you totally awesome.
Mark of Nessus makes it so everybody needs to make a Will Save(DC based on your charisma *winkwink*) to TARGET you with anything.

I once played one in a RP heavy campaign and she was great, I even played her in a good-aligned group(including a paladin), she posed as some kind of were-bugbear, who used a Stunning Surge Heavy Flail.

Taking levels in Fiend of Possession(Fiend Folio) is incredible. But you have to get to level 13 to do that.

Some good builds would be Fiend of Possession 6/Paladin of Slaughter 2 or, even better, Cleric 1/Fiend of Possession 6/Whatever 1.
Cleric grants you access to turning. Great charisma means great number of turns, great number of turns means a lot of uses for those juicy Divine Feats.

JeminiZero
2010-01-20, 07:56 PM
EDIT: I would try to get as many CHA-based abilities as I could. My first thought would be Paladin 2/MonkY/SorcererZ(?) and then take the feat that makes the monk AC bonus based off of CHA instead.


The feat is Ascetic Mage, it requires improved unarmed strike and spontaneous casting of L2 Arcane spells. It lets you apply any class feature that grants Wis to AC, and use Cha to AC instead.

Thats right, that means it works with the Unarmed Swordsage as well. That said, the huge HD and LA penalties means that your Succubus is unlikely to be keep up with the casting until epic ECL. If you do want to take this feat, just splash Sorc and pick up L2 Arcane spell with Precocious Apprentice, and it doesn't have to be Sorc either, you could gun for a more martial base class... like Bard. Take a couple of levels in Bard and grab Snowflake Wardance (apply Cha to attack and damage).

Beyond that, either put the rest of your levels in Crusader and hope that your HD counts as half towards initiator levels, so you can grab some mid-end strikes, which use Cha as the saving throw. Or Else pick up Paladin as mentioned, and get Devoted Performer (Bard and Paladin stack to determine Bardic Music uses and Smite Evil, essentially more Snowflake Wardance)

tahu88810
2010-01-20, 08:00 PM
With core alone: Succubus Bard. It's sort of broken.

Starscream
2010-01-20, 08:01 PM
Well, the main ability boost you get is (obviously) to charisma. Most classes that need high charisma are spellcasters, and it's rarely (meaning never) a good idea to give up caster levels.

But succubi also get some decent spell likes, and boosts to other abilities. Along with DR, and resistances. SR is usually more trouble than it is worth though.

And the HD you get are Outsider HD, which are among the best. Second only to Dragon, really. Good skills, saves, and BAB. Overall, not a bad choice, so long as you can find something to do with your massive charisma. Paladin would indeed be a good choice.

Teron
2010-01-20, 08:14 PM
There's a Thrall of Malcanthet PrC whose fluff is basically "worship the queen of succubi, and turn into one" in Dragon 353. I don't remember how powerful it is, but it's probably better than using the monster progression.

Greymane
2010-01-20, 08:17 PM
Don't forget: The Savage Progression has the ability to summon your Big Bad Boyfriend (Balor). The odds of him getting off his lazy arse and stop playing Grand Theft Carriage long enough to rescue you is pretty slim though.

Kelb_Panthera
2010-01-20, 08:22 PM
Hexblade might be an option. As I understand it it's kind of an arcane pseudo paladin with an attitude problem :smalltongue:

AustontheGreat1
2010-01-20, 08:42 PM
I always loved fiend of corruption myself.

dsmiles
2010-01-21, 05:30 AM
Personally, I found all of the "monster class progressions" to be poorly written, but if you insist on playing one, a Succubus/Bard or a Succubus/Warlock would be a good choice for lots and lots of Charisma based abilities.

Lioness
2010-01-21, 06:01 AM
Isn't 'succubus paladin' sort of an oxymoron?

Zeta Kai
2010-01-21, 06:09 AM
My key concern would be what to do after succubus. I can't think of any class which complements it well. It is literally a dead end class.

It should be fun for the 12 lvs of the savage progression. Afterwards...

Bard's not a bad choice, but Beguiler is even better. But for all-out synergy, any Charisma-based cased full caster would be awesomesauce. You know, like Sorcerer?

Ernir
2010-01-21, 06:21 AM
Isn't 'succubus paladin' sort of an oxymoron?

Probably, but it is not without precedent (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fc/20050824a). :smallfrown:

Noble Savant
2010-01-21, 06:25 AM
Convince your DM to let you take this (http://dnd.savannahsoft.eu/feat-751-dreadful-wrath.html)feat. Become a Bard/Dervish. Destroy the world utterly.

If you can't find a way to make the fact that every opponent is shaken work for you, you aren't doing it right.

Cyclocone
2010-01-21, 06:35 AM
Well, if you're playing a Succubus, you might as well do something that takes advantage of the her innate talents*.

Since you get Change Shape and Detect Thoughts, Mindspy and Warshaper should be open.

Just load up on Quicken SLA, Mindsight, Rapid Strike etc. and Greater Teleport to town.

*No, not those "talents".

Longcat
2010-01-21, 06:36 AM
Isn't 'succubus paladin' sort of an oxymoron?

With all the Drizz't fanboys/girls playing good Drow, I think we may have a double standard here. :smalltongue:

Tokiko Mima
2010-01-21, 06:51 AM
Isn't 'succubus paladin' sort of an oxymoron?

Nothing in the paladin rules actually prevents a Succubus from being a paladin. If it said 'cannot be evil or chaotic' that would be a problem, but the amazing properties of doublethink allows an enterprising Succubus to be simultaneously Lawful and Chaotic, whilst being both Good and Evil for all relevant purposes. Moral flexibility is where all the action is, don'tcha know? :smallwink:

Devils_Advocate
2010-01-21, 06:52 AM
Pretty much anything that adds your Charisma bonus to anything should provide significant synergy, be it a class level, feat, magic item(?), or whatever. The Paladin of Slaughter variant might be worth considering.

"Hm. Apparently when a paladin and an anti-paladin collide, they annihilate in a burst of energy."

A social Rogue build seems appropriate to the monster's general theme of mostly manipulating people and only rarely attacking opportunistically. Probably not very optimal, but I think that it'd be my first choice when considering how to advance a succubus NPC.


With core alone: Succubus Bard. It's sort of broken.
I'm not seeing what's so great about straight Bard for a succubus.

Cyclocone
2010-01-21, 06:57 AM
Isn't 'succubus paladin' sort of an oxymoron?

Oh I wouldn't say that.

After all, isn't the point of a Succubus that she's willing to do everything? [/rimshot].

Pharaoh's Fist
2010-01-21, 07:27 AM
I'm not seeing what's so great about straight Bard for a succubus.
Diplomacy?

Prime32
2010-01-21, 07:38 AM
You could use Tome's method to calculate the ECL (lv8 in this case, with the option of adding two extra HD for free)

Or you could build a character who can emulate a succubus. Start with a changeling duskblade 3, find some way to inflict negative levels and channel it through your unarmed strikes. Cabinet trickster gets you mind-reading and alternate form. Closest build I've found to a standard succubus in abilities (if using Tome material) is Changeling True Fiend 5/Conduit of the Lower Planes 2/Duskblade 3 with the Otherworldly (changes type to Outsider), Demon Wings and possibly Harmless Form feats (Spheres: Violation, Voracity), though you'll need three more CotLP levels to make your SLAs at-will.


See this thread (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=6872.0) for more.

Cyclocone
2010-01-21, 08:20 AM
I'm with Prime32 on this one, fluff is mutable.
So how about a Changeling Half-Fey (FF)?

For a mere +2 LA you get (among other things):
Minor Shape Change
Wings (60 ft., Good)
DR 5/cold iron
+4 CHA
Charm Person at-will
some 1/day Enchantment SLAs (take Magic in the Blood from PGtF to make them 3/day)

Basically, everything you need to emulate a Succubus.

Moak
2010-01-21, 08:46 AM
I'd had a Succubus (and a Deva) in my playing groups.

The problem is always "after?",but for they're savage progression level they go good.

Mine players who played Succubi tossed up some fiend of X after those level (one of possession,one of blasphemy)

The deva started up some fighter levels.

I would probably AVOID full casters. You would have many spells,high CD but...crappy spell. Take a look directly to gish PRC,the ones with their own spell progression like assassin (actually,if your master allow you to make a cha-based spellcasting assassin,it can be very very interesting). Or level in some militar class...I don't remember if there is any tob class cha based....

Some paladin,some hexblade.

Debuff the world,when you are not saying to anyone "you are my slave"...or play a tuned-down diplomacy build.

Some savage progression in actual play,specially in a non-overoptimized group (and one with a barghest don't seem an optimizing warfactory to me) can do pretty well..and go to town.

Random832
2010-01-21, 09:05 AM
Probably, but it is not without precedent (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fc/20050824a). :smallfrown:

"As long as she remains good-aligned, however, no vrock will answer her summons." - :smalleek: wait, they just magically know? There goes my succubus malconvoker idea.


Nothing in the paladin rules actually prevents a Succubus from being a paladin. If it said 'cannot be evil or chaotic' that would be a problem, but the amazing properties of doublethink allows an enterprising Succubus to be simultaneously Lawful and Chaotic, whilst being both Good and Evil for all relevant purposes. Moral flexibility is where all the action is, don'tcha know? :smallwink:

Well, really, it depends on whether you consider class alignment restrictions an "effect". (however, "The creature also suffers effects according to its actual alignment." would seem to imply you could still become a paladin even if this were the case)


Personally, I found all of the "monster class progressions" to be poorly written, but if you insist on playing one, a Succubus/Bard or a Succubus/Warlock would be a good choice for lots and lots of Charisma based abilities.

Well the point is supposed to be that by the time you've finished it you're exactly at the point of being a level-0 monster character with normal racial abilities, HD, and LA, plus any real class levels you've taken.

Flickerdart
2010-01-21, 11:42 AM
"As long as she remains good-aligned, however, no vrock will answer her summons." - :smalleek: wait, they just magically know? There goes my succubus malconvoker idea.
Malconvokers, I think, explicitly know how to trick demons like that. You should be fine.

nekomata2
2010-01-21, 12:33 PM
Alright, some answers, some things might not be addressed but I'll try for some of it.

No Paladin Succubus, no! Not because I don't think its a good idea or anything, but because 1) I want to use the level drain, and 2) my DM likes paladins and making them make difficult moral choices. She has said several times she likes giving them difficult choices, and as a succubus, she'll throw one at me every minute. Plus this doesnt seem like a campaign for LG types.

Some info: It seems the campaign is gonna be a type of war between a LG government and a CG rebellion group. It seems like we will get to choose a side. Seems like we want to be less flashy though (yeah right...) Party so far that I know is:

Barghest 8
Half-Clay Golem Dwarf cleric 8 (only prepares healing spells (yeah....I know...)
likely Changeling Rogue
Doppelganger Chameleon (or beguiler, I dont think he decided yet)
A 2nd Doppelganger Chameleon (or Avariel Swift Hunter)

I'm probably going to be a Focused Specialist transmuter if I dont go succubus.

Bard, I'm not really interested in.

The various fiend PrCs are OK, but I'm not sure I wan't to be quite so...EVIL :smallbiggrin:

Hadn't looked at Battledancer before, might be good for a dip.

I havent yet had the chance to look at Mindspy or Warshaper for this yet, but either one might come in handy, especially Warshaper if I remember it well enough. No matter what, as a succubus I'll take Mindsight.

I had considered Swordsage, and I might go to it for at least a bit, and I doubt my DM would object to the 12 levels of Succubus counting for 6 initiator levels.

That Tome thing seems interesting, and I might look a little more into, but basically succubus is 8 levels long and gets you all the abilities of the MM one?

One other question, while I have you all, the two doppelgangers claim they don't need to take the racial HD, claim they read they don't. I know savage progressions require all the levels, and as far as I know regular RHD are not a choice, so am I right?

Dr.Epic
2010-01-21, 12:34 PM
The Succubus monster progression from Savage Species. Is it any good? Or what can you do with it? I was thinking about using it in a game, starting at 8th level. Being underpowered is hardly an issue, but not something I like personally. So any advice, opinions, etc?

I pretty sure ALL of what's in savage species isn't very good.

Blackfang108
2010-01-21, 12:38 PM
I pretty sure ALL of what's in savage species isn't very good.

Anthro-Bat.

Sprainogre
2010-01-21, 12:43 PM
I'm a very bad DM, and once sent a leveled succubus after my party. Build was something along the lines of:
HexbladeX/BlackguardY/Mystic WandererZ
She'd hex the hell out of you, had her cha to both saves and AC, and had a small selection of both arcane and divine spells. Couldn't figure out a way to give her cha to atk's and damage, but that's okay. :smallbiggrin:

paddyfool
2010-01-21, 12:43 PM
One other question, while I have you all, the two doppelgangers claim they don't need to take the racial HD, claim they read they don't. I know savage progressions require all the levels, and as far as I know regular RHD are not a choice, so am I right?

Racial hit die are obligatory by the RAW, yes (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monstersAsRaces.htm) (unless they're using some doppleganger variant or other... there may be such a thing in Races of Destiny or some other publication). But that does tend to leave you under-powered as monstrous PCs (hence the slew of "lesser" variants designed to be more playable), so you'd probably best hash it out with the DM.

The Glyphstone
2010-01-21, 12:46 PM
The Dopplegangers are 100% cheatery wrong, unless the DM has ruled otherwise. Not taking the racial HD is giving them all the ability modifiers and special powers of the doppleganger for only the LA, then letting them take class levels to retain the HP they 'lost' and get more special abilities.

For your party members, if the Cleric is only going to prepare healing spells, try and talk him/the DM into the Radiant Servant of Pelor PrC, with all the Pelor icongraphy filed off and replaced with the dwarven god of choice (Radiant Servant of Moradin, problem solved). If he wants to be a healbot, that's fine, but while Cleric 8 is a mediocre healbot (...and why half-clay golem, anyways?), Cleric 5/RSoPM 3 with the Spontaneous Domain feat for Healing Domain is a demigod of healbots. Cleric 5/Servant 10 is an overdeity of healbots.

nekomata2
2010-01-21, 12:53 PM
....Because he not so much the healbot, as he claims to be the tank.......:smalleek:

dsmiles
2010-01-21, 12:58 PM
For your party members, if the Cleric is only going to prepare healing spells, try and talk him/the DM into the Radiant Servant of Pelor PrC, with all the Pelor icongraphy filed off and replaced with the dwarven god of choice (Radiant Servant of Moradin, problem solved). If he wants to be a healbot, that's fine, but while Cleric 8 is a mediocre healbot (...and why half-clay golem, anyways?), Cleric 5/RSoPM 3 with the Spontaneous Domain feat for Healing Domain is a demigod of healbots. Cleric 5/Servant 10 is an overdeity of healbots.

Put the healbot cleric in full plate, give him/her a tower shield and a warhammer, and you've got a wall of heal. Phenomenal healing (hit-taking) power, itty-bitty movement rate.

Zaydos
2010-01-21, 01:00 PM
Well with LA free Half-Clay Golem he could be the tank without any spells. +7 AC, +8 Str, and DR plus immunity to non-bludgeoning weapons (assuming that hasn't been removed) means he'll make a decent tank.

As for Succubus high Charisma + Ability Focus (Charm Monster) + Supernatural Transformation: Supernatural Charm Monster so it cannot be dispelled.

For level up take a class that uses Charisma. Battle Dancer for Charisma to AC (Dragon Magazine Compendium) and Hexblade for Charisma to saves versus spells and mettle might be good. You can get a fairly hard to hurt character especially if you can get Evasion too (Battle Dancer might get it, I forget).

Devils_Advocate
2010-01-21, 02:18 PM
Diplomacy?
Well, sure, but that's hardly exclusive to Bards.


It seems the campaign is gonna be a type of war between a LG government and a CG rebellion group. It seems like we will get to choose a side.
SOW DISSENT! KINDLE THEIR TINY FLAMES OF DISPUTE AND MISTRUST INTO A RAGING INFERNO OF HATRED AND BLOODSHED! CORRUPT BOTH SIDES TO THE FORCES OF CHAOS AND EVIL! IT IS THY DESTINY! MWA HA HA HA HA!


I'm not sure I wan't to be quite so...EVIL :smallbiggrin:
Oh, but this really is such a very good opportunity for it. :smallamused:


Half-Clay Golem Dwarf cleric 8 (only prepares healing spells (yeah....I know...)
....Because he not so much the healbot, as he claims to be the tank.......:smalleek:
I just died a little inside.

You may have to sit him down and gently explain how cleric tanks work, and indeed how the Cleric's Spontaneous Casting class feature works.

nekomata2
2010-01-21, 02:35 PM
Alright, so I looked at Mindspy and Warshaper. Mindspy is alright, but it's Cha to AC is capped by it's level, it just doesnt seem to be all that useful.

And warshaper, I would normally think is good, but since Succubus change shape is limited to a humanoid form, it doesnt seem all that great for them.

Where is Supernatural Transformation?

And yeah I understand the cleric is doing it wrong, and have told him repeatedly so, just like with his two other characters I've seen, but it doesn't work.

nekomata2
2010-01-21, 07:01 PM
See this thread (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=6872.0) for more.

I think I like the way it works in the link off of that thread,http://www.tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=33294,
but I'm a little confused about the 2nd method, the one relevant to every other monster character in my party than me. So it ignore Method 1's class level is CR+1, and instead looks at the monster's BAB, then basically assigns it class HD that get it the right BAB, and that's how many levels it is?

So, for example, the Barghest, having a 6 BAB, would have the equivalent of 6 Barb HD (or fighter, or any full BAB class, actually with d8 HD, it should probably be ranger...), and Doppelganger would probably also have 4 ranger HD? And that's it? No LA?