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Admiral Squish
2010-01-21, 01:47 AM
Where's all the love for crossbows? I see plenty of things for bows, but nothing for crossbows. Heck, anything but a repeater is pretty much a waste of resources. And even those are sub-par. Is there something I don't know of that redeems them?

Eloel
2010-01-21, 01:54 AM
Where's all the love for crossbows? I see plenty of things for bows, but nothing for crossbows. Heck, anything but a repeater is pretty much a waste of resources. And even those are sub-par. Is there something I don't know of that redeems them?

Insectile Thri-Khreen with Hand Crossbows all around. Pretty much this :)

Grifthin
2010-01-21, 02:22 AM
I LOVE crossbows. Currently playing a fighter that dual wields light repeating crossbows. The ownage - Increased my clips to 25 each instead of 5 and now I'm having a ball of a time since I don't need to reload as often. Havn't run into monsters with DR or anything - still level 1. However packing 4 attacks at level 1 all with a -1 modifier within 30ft is a heck of a lot of fun.

Don't hit often but looks damn stylish while doing so.

Admiral Squish
2010-01-21, 02:37 AM
So... Just for giggles... Ogre with a Monkey Grip Repeating Great Crossbow. Sound good?

FMArthur
2010-01-21, 02:39 AM
Hand crossbows are the best for having no penalties for being wielded one-handed (light and heavy have their own penalties, which are separate from those for TWF) and for having its own feat, Hand Crossbow Focus (DotU), which is just Weapon Focus and Rapid Reload rolled into one feat.

And yes, repeating crossbows are pointless. It costs you a feat to use one properly... and Rapid Reload could have cost you the same feat to give light crossbows a slightly better reload than repeaters.

Thurbane
2010-01-21, 02:40 AM
So... Just for giggles... Ogre with a Monkey Grip Repeating Great Crossbow. Sound good?
Forget Monkey Grip, go with Strongarm Bracers...or BOTH. :smallbiggrin:

AslanCross
2010-01-21, 02:47 AM
I love crossbows too. There's not that much support for them, but a Rogue/Assassin with a wand of Sniper's Shot and a Great Crossbow could sneak attack from oh, a few hundred feet away.

Twilight Jack
2010-01-21, 02:49 AM
The main crossbow love is that they're simple weapons, with a better base damage and range than the equivalent bow. They're definitely not intended as a primary weapon in which your character should specialize. Rather, they're for characters who want a quick ranged attack in the surprise round before closing to melee (read: clerics and other melee classes that lack martial weapon proficiencies).

absolmorph
2010-01-21, 02:55 AM
The main crossbow love is that they're simple weapons, with a better base damage and range than the equivalent bow. They're definitely not intended as a primary weapon in which your character should specialize. Rather, they're for characters who want a quick ranged attack in the surprise round before closing to melee (read: clerics and other melee classes that lack martial weapon proficiencies).
And for mass armies of conscripted peasants and lower-class.
Half the attacks missed? Oh, that's okay. There's still quite a few hitting you.

Grifthin
2010-01-21, 02:57 AM
Hmmm - I wonder if the DM would allow me to take a whole bunch of crossbows and Duct tape them together. That would be a pretty cool weapon - dual wield my dual wield so to speak.

Flickerdart
2010-01-21, 11:36 AM
Forget Monkey Grip, go with Strongarm Bracers...or BOTH. :smallbiggrin:
Doesn't stack with each other, sorry.

Shademan
2010-01-21, 11:39 AM
I LOVE crossbows. Currently playing a fighter that dual wields light repeating crossbows. The ownage - Increased my clips to 25 each instead of 5 and now I'm having a ball of a time since I don't need to reload as often. Havn't run into monsters with DR or anything - still level 1. However packing 4 attacks at level 1 all with a -1 modifier within 30ft is a heck of a lot of fun.

Don't hit often but looks damn stylish while doing so.

is that the same character I'm drawing for you?

jiriku
2010-01-21, 11:41 AM
Doesn't stack with each other, sorry.

GET BOTH ANYWAY! Be a massive ogre dual-wielding light ballistas! MOAR DAKKA!

Vizzerdrix
2010-01-21, 11:43 AM
I love crossbows too. There's not that much support for them, but a Rogue/Assassin with a wand of Sniper's Shot and a Great Crossbow could sneak attack from oh, a few hundred feet away.

I see the wand mounted under the body, used as a laser sight :smallbiggrin:

I too love me some crossbows. I've found one in a 3rd party book that you can sneak attack with from 120ft away. I may build around it one day.

Hmm... Any way we can enchant a crossbow with a chained launchbolt for that Van Helsing (http://static.mmoabc.com/my/D/a/f/tshadow/2008/9/9//1220936870629.jpg) feel?

RagnaroksChosen
2010-01-21, 11:48 AM
You can get some decent crossbow builds going.

X bow sniper .... 60ft sneak attack and half dex to damage.
Along with a dip in targeteer fighter from dragon mag
along with some psiwarrior...
along with penetrating shot? the one you can hit all within a line.

I meen there are some fun things you can do with xbows.

Zom B
2010-01-21, 11:49 AM
Hmmm - I wonder if the DM would allow me to take a whole bunch of crossbows and Duct tape them together. That would be a pretty cool weapon - dual wield my dual wield so to speak.

Make a crossbow that shoots other crossbows as ammunition. And then when those crossbows hit, they fire their ammunition into the target.

Eldariel
2010-01-21, 11:49 AM
Don't underestimate Crossbows. With Crossbow Sniper [PHBII], they're pretty much the Go-To weapon for Rogues, and you can dualwield them, especially with Ghostly Reload [RoTD]. They also have completely ridiculous reaches with the Gnome Crossbow Sight [A&EG] and it's actually possible to make some silly infinite-attack-chains with them.

See Archery Handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=642.00); the Crossbow section is quite finished.

Kaiyanwang
2010-01-21, 11:50 AM
Doesn't stack with each other, sorry.

I knew that. But is painful like the first time I've heard it.

Gentleman Bard
2010-01-21, 11:52 AM
Hmmm - I wonder if the DM would allow me to take a whole bunch of crossbows and Duct tape them together. That would be a pretty cool weapon - dual wield my dual wield so to speak.


Somebody's been playing Space Munchkin...

Grumman
2010-01-21, 12:28 PM
Make a crossbow that shoots other crossbows as ammunition. And then when those crossbows hit, they fire their ammunition into the target.
Note to self: play Bloodstorm Blade spikard-thrower. With Rapid Reload.

Dr.Epic
2010-01-21, 12:31 PM
Where's all the love for crossbows? I see plenty of things for bows, but nothing for crossbows. Heck, anything but a repeater is pretty much a waste of resources. And even those are sub-par. Is there something I don't know of that redeems them?

The only good thing about them is that you can load them ahead of time. Maybe if you're a heavy melee character that wants a ranged weapon they're okay too, but other than that I'd just go with a regular bow.

Renchard
2010-01-21, 01:06 PM
Crossbow love sounds incredibly dangerous.

I have no quarrel with it, however.

Sprainogre
2010-01-21, 01:06 PM
If memory serves, their is also a feat in the 3.5 PHB2 that gives the crossbow some much needed love. But I agree, some more weapon feats for crossbows would be cool... :smallsmile:

Also, Admiral Squish, that is an AWESOME avi!

AtwasAwamps
2010-01-21, 01:10 PM
I have no quarrel with it, however.


::drum hit::

snoopy13a
2010-01-21, 01:19 PM
Hand crossbows can be concealed on the person. This could be useful in city campaigns.

Crossbows are also good weapons for level 1 wizards and sorcerors.

Dyllan
2010-01-21, 01:25 PM
Crossbows are also good weapons for level 1 wizards and sorcerors.

You mean after they cast all their spells for the day?

We have a word for a wizard who's out of spells: "Commoner"

dyslexicfaser
2010-01-21, 01:28 PM
The Warforged component Armbow is pretty good. I made a Swift Hunter that dual-wielded Armbows with the Exploding and Knockback properties, once.

It was fun.

Mystic Muse
2010-01-21, 01:29 PM
I don't like crossbows because I think they look ugly.

That's why I have no love for crossbows.

Kaiyanwang
2010-01-21, 01:29 PM
Hand crossbows can be concealed on the person. This could be useful in city campaigns.


This is somewhat linked with posts #22 and #24.


You mean after they cast all their spells for the day?

We have a word for a wizard who's out of spells: "Commoner"

Well, at least in my experience, one of the fun part of level 1-2 is the "crossbowtime" (or slingtime).

I remember that at level one the our Shugenja//Shadocaster was a sniper woth his sling. Alwas 4 on damage! A slaughter! (Kobolds always one-shotted)

Shademan
2010-01-21, 01:32 PM
I don't like crossbows because I think they look ugly.

That's why I have no love for crossbows.

What!? Crossbows are damn sexy, I say!

Kaiyanwang
2010-01-21, 01:32 PM
What!? Crossbows are damn sexy, I say!

You are not the only one (see above).

Grifthin
2010-01-21, 03:13 PM
is that the same character I'm drawing for you?

yip. crossbows are so metal.

Mystic Muse
2010-01-21, 04:29 PM
CROSSBOWS MUST DIE! not really. I genuinely dislike them though.

Suropej
2010-01-21, 04:36 PM
Is there anything stopping a Repeating Crossbow from shooting as many times as you can attack in a round? 'Cause once you get multiple attacks from BAB I'd think Rpt. Crossbows would start becoming heavy hitters.

A lvl 16 Fighter with Rapid Shot would be able to unload a full clip for 5d10 with a Heavy Repeating version without enchants.

Deth Muncher
2010-01-21, 04:52 PM
Why does every thread devolve into "X is sexy!" "I have no problems carnally loving X." "X MUST DIE!" ?

Shademan
2010-01-21, 04:52 PM
CROSSBOWS MUST DIE! not really. I genuinely dislike them though.

stop opressing mah people! I'm a quarter crowwbow on my fathers side!

not really. And you are entitled to your opinion.

Mystic Muse
2010-01-21, 05:01 PM
:belkar:Stop oppressing my culture you ethnocentric B****!

fixed it for you.:smallbiggrin:

Shademan
2010-01-21, 05:11 PM
Ah, jolly good.

FMArthur
2010-01-21, 05:16 PM
Is there anything stopping a Repeating Crossbow from shooting as many times as you can attack in a round? 'Cause once you get multiple attacks from BAB I'd think Rpt. Crossbows would start becoming heavy hitters.

A lvl 16 Fighter with Rapid Shot would be able to unload a full clip for 5d10 with a Heavy Repeating version without enchants.

That is the way they were meant to be used, and results in spectacularly underwhelming damage at such levels. Then you have to replace the clip, which wastes a turn. You're better off taking Rapid Reload for your light crossbow than taking Exotic Weapon Proficiency for a heavy repeater.

Or, if you are actually interested in using a crossbow for many many bolts per round, dual-wield (quad-wield for thri-kreen) hand crossbows. Use Hand Crossbow Focus and a Spare Hand (12000gp, MIC) to reload between every shot as a series of free actions. If you hate money you may also consider the Quick-Loading weapon enhancement or if you are drowning in actions the Ghostly Reload spell can be cast from a wand relatively cheaply (it still winds up being the most expensive as you go through many wands, all of which need to be of increased caster level).

Also, just in case it isn't totally clear yet, REPEATING CROSSBOWS SUCK. There isn't anything you can do best with them but look cool, so don't bother trying. :smallcool:

Admiral Squish
2010-01-21, 05:34 PM
The main reason I'm asking is I want to build this guy in a little bit, and he needs to be a credible threat to the party at CR 20.

http://www.demigodthegame.com/images/demigods/regulus.png

Eldariel
2010-01-21, 05:40 PM
The main reason I'm asking is I want to build this guy in a little bit, and he needs to be a credible threat to the party at CR 20.

http://www.demigodthegame.com/images/demigods/regulus.png

He's wielding a Large Great Crossbow. Not a bad plan, actually. Feat-wise, that's EWP: Great Crossbow. Then he's wearing Strongarm Bracers [MiC]. Great Crossbow is in Races of Stone. If you Enlarge him, you have some respectable base damage. 4d8, I think. One more increase and you'd be at 6d8 already.

Also, umm yeah, Crossbow Sniper, Ghostly Reload, go to town.

maestro78
2010-01-21, 05:43 PM
The grappling hook attachment from the old Song and Silence book was always fun.

AslanCross
2010-01-21, 05:47 PM
I see the wand mounted under the body, used as a laser sight :smallbiggrin:


You can actually do that with a wand chamber. (Dungeonscape). +10 to Awesome and also allows you to use it without having to hold the wand separately.

Cieyrin
2010-01-21, 06:15 PM
He's wielding a Large Great Crossbow. Not a bad plan, actually. Feat-wise, that's EWP: Great Crossbow. Then he's wearing Strongarm Bracers [MiC]. Great Crossbow is in Races of Stone. If you Enlarge him, you have some respectable base damage. 4d8, I think. One more increase and you'd be at 6d8 already.

Also, umm yeah, Crossbow Sniper, Ghostly Reload, go to town.

I approve. Also, Crossbow Slinger in me sig for more hot crossbow lovings. [/shamelessplug]

dyslexicfaser
2010-01-21, 06:15 PM
yip. crossbows are so metal.

I wish I had a crossbow right now.


The main reason I'm asking is I want to build this guy in a little bit, and he needs to be a credible threat to the party at CR 20.

http://www.demigodthegame.com/images/demigods/regulus.png

I recommend having him take the Crossbow Sniper, Ranged Pin and Penetrating Shot feats, and taking levels in Cragtop Archer. Start shooting your PCs from a mile away with your massive, ballista-like arrows.

And I'm not a crossbow rules scientist or anything, but I think Ranged Pin and Penetrating Shot combine to pin enemies to walls with your enormous, definitely-not-a-phallic-symbol arrows.

Justin B.
2010-01-21, 06:46 PM
I see the wand mounted under the body, used as a laser sight :smallbiggrin:

I too love me some crossbows. I've found one in a 3rd party book that you can sneak attack with from 120ft away. I may build around it one day.

Hmm... Any way we can enchant a crossbow with a chained launchbolt for that Van Helsing (http://static.mmoabc.com/my/D/a/f/tshadow/2008/9/9//1220936870629.jpg) feel?

This gives me an idea for a weapon mod that would definitely make crossbows worthwhile. Allows you to activate a wand with a ranged attack spell alongside the regular crossbow attack with the same action. So not only if your crossbow spitting out a crazy amount of bolts, but you might also be shooting Magic Missiles, or Scorching Rays.

Would probably require quite a few ranks in UMD to design this device, but once it's made it could be sold to anyone. Oh ho ho....

mabriss lethe
2010-01-21, 07:16 PM
well, there's the icechucker from frostburn. sort of a extremely heavy crossbow thing that launches javelins as ammo (for when you're out of icicles. or just think the idea of shooting a frickin' icicle is just sort of dumb. )

Vizzerdrix
2010-01-21, 10:32 PM
well, there's the icechucker from frostburn. sort of a extremely heavy crossbow thing that launches javelins as ammo (for when you're out of icicles. or just think the idea of shooting a frickin' icicle is just sort of dumb. )

The archery guide recommends avoiding that one.


I STILL want to make a chain gun crossbow using the launch bolt and the Chainspell meta magic.

Zaq
2010-01-21, 10:54 PM
Crossbow love sounds incredibly dangerous.

I have no quarrel with it, however.

I see what you did there.

Grifthin
2010-01-21, 11:20 PM
I still reckon some kind of crossbow mod that's basically two crossbows will be fun. Wouldn't it be possible to build something that looks like the twin crossbow ? (is that the right name ? The one that has two bows for firing bolts, double crossbow ?) - but that uses the repeating mags for loading and firing.

Vizzerdrix
2010-01-21, 11:22 PM
I still reckon some kind of crossbow mod that's basically two crossbows will be fun. Wouldn't it be possible to build something that looks like the twin crossbow ? (is that the right name ? The one that has two bows for firing bolts, double crossbow ?) - but that uses the repeating mags for loading and firing.

Or enchantments?

Grifthin
2010-01-21, 11:27 PM
Found them - From the Archery handbook:

"Light Double Crossbow (70 gp) [RoTD Web Enhancement]
These Exotic Weapons are interesting cases with tons of controversial rules about them. You get two attacks at your full attack bonus as a full-round attack if you have the Double Crossbow-proficiency. You can use the two bolts as iteratives if you lack proficiency in Double Crossbow. This raises the question if free action-loading Double Crossbows are effectively Two-Weapon Fighting without the feat (able to take iteratives) and if you can dual wield Double Crossbows, shooting both separately with iteratives.

Since it's listed to be a full-round attack to shoot the both Bolts at -2, it seems likely that you'd get iteratives as normal after that provided you have the means to load the Crossbow; indeed, the article does compared Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Double Crossbow to Rapid Shot, which would suggest that you get one extra attack and then are free to take iteratives as you please. This would also suggest that you can Two-Weapon Fight with Double Crossbows, getting one extra attack with both and full iteratives, albeit at stacking penalties. This would also suggest that you can't Two-Weapon Fight with one Double Crossbow (it has two bows, so technically you should be able to) without taking Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Double Crossbow, although logically it feels like you should be able to since you always have a hand free for the free reloads. Anyways, the rules are a bit confusing, so you may want to check what your DM thinks, but it seems like the page suggests that this is how it works. Oh yeah, don't forget to combine the Double Crossbows with Rapid Shot if you do get to load them as Free Action.

It's worth noting that all Double Crossbows have -2 worse penalties for using in one hand, so Light Double Crossbow's penalty is -4.

Heavy Double Crossbow (100 gp) [RoTD Web Enhancement]
Do note that Double Crossbow-proficiency is just one feat; these all share proficiency, just like the Repeating Crossbows. Early on in the game, you could use Heavy Double Crossbow to take double shots at opponent for maximum damage and once you start getting iteratives, switch to Light Double Crossbow to maximize the number of attacks.

These can't be reloaded quickly (save possibly with Ghostly Reload) and have immense penalties for using in one hand, so you probably won't be dual wielding them no matter what (-8 with multiple feats).

Hand Double Crossbow (200 gp) [RoTD Web Enhancement]
These probably lend themselves best to the machine gun-idea presented above. Wielding one of these in one hand only costs you -2 to hit and having free reload from Quick Loading or whatever would mean that you would get to take the extra attack with each plus full iteratives, along with Rapid Shots and what have you at reasonable penalties. This seems like a solid plan with Crossbow Sniper [PHBII Pg. 77] to maximize the damage output."

Now - couldn't one create a weapon like this that's automatic like the Repeating ones ? Sorta like a mini-gun - Alternates in between which bows gets cocked and fired for maximum dakka.

Admiral Squish
2010-01-23, 04:14 PM
Sorry to bring this back up so forcefully, but what EXACTLY does crossbow sniper do? I can't find the book ATM. Also, can someone give me a range increment for a great crossbow?

Eldariel
2010-01-23, 04:50 PM
Sorry to bring this back up so forcefully, but what EXACTLY does crossbow sniper do? I can't find the book ATM. Also, can someone give me a range increment for a great crossbow?

½ Dex to damage, 60' precision damage. Req WF: Xbow, Xbow prof. And 130'.

Admiral Squish
2010-01-23, 04:57 PM
½ Dex to damage, 60' precision damage. Req WF: Xbow, Xbow prof. And 130'.

Thanks! You're a lifesaver. Or at least a-few-hours saver...

Adumbration
2010-01-23, 05:04 PM
Heh, heh. I once had a halfling rogue dualwielding double hand crossbows. 4 attacks in one round, and at 1st level it either ended the encounter or left my character very embarrased and in deep trouble. :smallredface:

Thurbane
2010-01-23, 11:25 PM
yip. crossbows are so metal.

http://i49.tinypic.com/25ewryp.jpg

juggalotis
2010-01-24, 01:02 AM
i now want to make a homebrew for a back mounted great balista that takes another party member to fire.

Lappy9000
2010-01-24, 01:11 AM
What!? Crossbows are damn sexy, I say!

http://i49.tinypic.com/25ewryp.jpgYes. Also, very yes.

Thurbane
2010-01-24, 01:24 AM
..it's a shame that the weapon itself (Flamecaster’s Bolt from Weapons of Legacy) is a bit crap.

Fizban
2010-01-24, 02:56 AM
Aside from the fact that Launch Bolt is horrible, it occurs to me that is says you fire the bolt completely as if from a light crossbow. Which means you could use it with Crossbow Sniper or Sniper's shot. One level of sorcerer is a rogues best friend: sneak attack at ludicrous range without even having a weapon.

Grifthin
2010-01-24, 07:17 AM
http://i49.tinypic.com/25ewryp.jpg

So awesome.