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View Full Version : [3.5] Gaining Proficiencies without Leveling or gaining HD



EnnPeeCee
2010-01-21, 02:13 AM
Is there any good way to have a creature gain proficiency in armor and/or a weapon without it gaining any class levels or HD?

Specifically, I'm building a druid using the ACF to get an earth elemental companion, and was thinking it would be awesome if it could wear armor and use a good weapon (not to say its slam is bad). I do know that I can choose to have it gain HD rather than grow in size as I level, but I fail to see any reason to do so since growing is superior in every way except being able to pick feats.

So, is there any way I can get proficiencies onto this guy without resorting to asking my DM to let me choose feats as it grows in size? I'd also prefer to avoid any retraining or whatnot that switches feats around, unless this is the best option.

Eloel
2010-01-21, 02:17 AM
Give the elemental a flaw or two, and grab him a few feats. Well, why not?

EnnPeeCee
2010-01-21, 02:20 AM
Give the elemental a flaw or two, and grab him a few feats. Well, why not?

Haha, didn't think of that. I wonder if the DM will allow it...?

Rasman
2010-01-21, 02:29 AM
Haha, didn't think of that. I wonder if the DM will allow it...?

crazy elemental is crazy...

it's worth a shot, just don't try to shoot the moon, because you're DM might shut you down on it, then again...War Trolls...as if Trolls couldn't get worse...go for your Earth Ele...give him a spiked chain...

EnnPeeCee
2010-01-21, 02:37 AM
crazy elemental is crazy...

it's worth a shot, just don't try to shoot the moon, because you're DM might shut you down on it, then again...War Trolls...as if Trolls couldn't get worse...go for your Earth Ele...give him a spiked chain...

Hmm.... War Elemental....

Anyway, probably not going to use flaws, just remembered the DM restricted the list to all the terrible ones, and has us rolling for them. Not worth it.

JeminiZero
2010-01-21, 02:48 AM
Armor shouldn't be much of a problem. Being non proficient with the armor you are wearing merely means you apply its ACP to your attack rolls and some other stuff. Which means that if the armor has 0 ACP (say Mithril Breast Plate) you can wear it without problems.

Noble Savant
2010-01-21, 02:50 AM
You could purchase a Skillfull weapon of whatever sort you want to use, it ignores Proficiency and BaB deficiencies.

As for armor, the only penalty for non proficiency in armor is the Armor Check penalty going to your attack bonus as well. Stack on as many reductions to the ACP as you can wear whatever armor comes up.

EDIT: Half Ninjaed. Blast.

Zaydos
2010-01-21, 02:59 AM
If you have the MiC Mithril Breastplate of Nimbleness (minimum +1, for 8200 GP) has +0 ACP and is +6 AC. Unfortunately if your DM decides Earth Elementals are abnormally shaped the mithril price (4000 GP) is multiplied and if it is large it costs more (might be wrong about that but it's 3 AM right now and I don't feel like combing through the DMG).

For weapon... I don't know which book Skilled is in but that sounds fun.

Eloel
2010-01-21, 03:01 AM
I believe Skillful is in CArcane - but not sure.

EnnPeeCee
2010-01-21, 03:02 AM
Forgot about skillful. That would work nicely.

And I'd really like it to wear some plate / other huge armor. Possible to get that acp down to zero or close? The only reducer I know off the top of my head is mithral.

Tokiko Mima
2010-01-21, 03:09 AM
Remember the penalty for non-proficiency on armor is your Armor Check Penalty so if the armor's ACP is 0 then there's no penalty. Mithril chain shirts, masterwork studded leather and the like can be worn by anyone regardless of proficiency (unless you have a special restriction, like monk armor class feature.)

If your goal is just to have your elemental soak damage, it might be worth it to give him armor and let him take the non-proficiency penalty. Sure, he'll take the ACP value as a penalty to attack bonus and any skill checks that involve moving, but it's not like they have much in the way of skills anyway. Is a +8 full plate armor bonus worth a -4/-6 to attack rolls? It depends on how much of an attacker you want your elemental to be.

Edit: Ninja'ed!

There's also Faycraft armor template in DMGII? That's good for another -1 to ACP. You could also opt for Celestial armor (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicArmor.htm#celestialArmor) which is Chainmail (Armor bonus +5) with an ACP of only 2, and the ability to let your earth elemental fly 1/day.

EnnPeeCee
2010-01-21, 03:16 AM
Remember the penalty for non-proficiency on armor is your Armor Check Penalty so if the armor's ACP is 0 then there's no penalty. Mithril chain shirts, masterwork studded leather and the like can be worn by anyone regardless of proficiency (unless you have a special restriction, like monk armor class feature.)

If your goal is just to have your elemental soak damage, it might be worth it to give him armor and let him take the non-proficiency penalty. Sure, he'll take the ACP value as a penalty to attack bonus and any skill checks that involve moving, but it's not like they have much in the way of skills anyway. Is a +8 full plate armor bonus worth a -4/-6 to attack rolls? It depends on how much of an attacker you want your elemental to be.

Very true, I do intend on it acting as my wall most of the time. It'd be nice if it could hit back though, since it has such a lovely strength score and a decent choice in damaging feats. I guess I'll just look for a happy medium.


So new thought: it grows in size every few levels I gain. That would make buying armor for it difficult, or at least expensive. Better option than just replacing it?

Coidzor
2010-01-21, 03:18 AM
I was wondering if sizing worked on armor... Just checked MIC... nada.

Eloel
2010-01-21, 03:19 AM
I'm pretty sure there's a Sizing enhancement in some book.

EnnPeeCee
2010-01-21, 03:21 AM
I think sizing is weapon only, but I could be wrong.

Noble Savant
2010-01-21, 03:26 AM
All right then. I've trawled through my books looking for ACP reducers.

Mithral reduces the penalties by three, (this includes masterwork).
Nimbleness reduces it by a further two points.
Hellforged from the DMG 2, reduces it by another 1.

That gives you a suit of Full Plate without any ACP penalties at all. Not sure about the changing size business, I'm not sure it can be done.

EnnPeeCee
2010-01-21, 03:28 AM
All right then. I've trawled through my books looking for ACP reducers.

Mithral reduces the penalties by three, (this includes masterwork).
Nimbleness reduces it by a further two points.
Hellforged from the DMG 2, reduces it by another 1.

That gives you a suit of Full Plate without any ACP penalties at all. Not sure about the changing size business, I'm not sure it can be done.

Excellent! Thank you very much.

Steelblood
2010-01-21, 03:29 AM
i know from one book that druids can have their armor shape to them no matter the size or shape, so i don't really see a problem with magical sizing armor.

EnnPeeCee
2010-01-21, 03:30 AM
i know from one book that druids can have their armor shape to them no matter the size or shape, so i don't really see a problem with magical sizing armor.

I know, its just that I hate to resort to homebrewing something.

Steelblood
2010-01-21, 03:35 AM
Well i wouldn't see it as homebrew, find the armor in races of the wild i believe and just strap it on there, it should work.

Tokiko Mima
2010-01-21, 03:37 AM
A Morphing + Sizing weapon could be fun for an earth elemental to wield. I imagine it would look like the earth elemental was changing part of itself into different weapons. If it was Brilliant Energy as well, you'd negate most of the penalty by allowing it to ignore armor of your enemies.

As far as the armor, I think you'd be best served by using low ACP armor, and saving the expensive magic stuff for when your elemental hits Huge size. The extra cost for the increased size really isn't much; it's only applied to the base armor cost, not the masterwork or magical enhancements (which is usually the largest part.) If cost is a concern though, you might want to avoid the heavy armors, since they get expensive when multiplied by 8.

EnnPeeCee
2010-01-21, 03:38 AM
A Morphing + Sizing weapon could be fun for an earth elemental to wield. I imagine it would look like the earth elemental was changing part of itself into different weapons. If it was Brilliant Energy as well, you'd negate most of the penalty by allowing it to ignore armor of your enemies.

As far as the armor, I think you'd be best served by using low ACP armor, and saving the expensive magic stuff for when your elemental hits Huge size. The extra cost for the increased size really isn't much; it's only applied to the base armor cost, not the masterwork or magical enhancements (which is usually the largest part.) If cost is a concern though, you might want to avoid the heavy armors, since they get expensive when multiplied by 8.

Well cost is currently a concern as we'll be playing at level 5. But I don't intend on trying to use any of this until I'm well funded.

Coidzor
2010-01-21, 03:39 AM
Yeah, for beastskin to work it'd have to be an earth elemental druid or wildshaping ranger and expend a use of wildshape to keep the armor from shredding as it went up to its new size, possibly having it permanently expended.

On the other hand, armor increases in size with you when you're increased in size by spells, so there's some slight argument there over the elemental just having the armor grow with him so long as he never takes it off.

Otherwise, I believe there's rules somewhere for re-sizing armor a size category up at a time, but I can't remember where I saw them. (As in, paying someone to re-size the armor for him after he gets bigger, as an alternative to re-kitting him every time.)

JeminiZero
2010-01-21, 03:40 AM
You could simply keep cost down by going for cheap armor. The cost of higher enchantment bonus escalates rapidly anyway.

E.g. if you simply equipped him with a Mithril Chainshirt +1 that grants +5 AC, it would cost 2100+ gp (not including sizing cost). Then changing the armor every so often would be less painful on the pocket. When he reaches his final size, then you can splurge on something more substantial.

If you instead opted for a Nimble Mithril Breastplate +1, it would cost 8200+ gp and only provide +1 more AC.

EnnPeeCee
2010-01-21, 03:45 AM
You could simply keep cost down by going for cheap armor. The cost of higher enchantment bonus escalates rapidly anyway.

E.g. if you simply equipped him with a Mithril Chainshirt +1 that grants +5 AC, it would cost 2100+ gp (not including sizing cost). Then changing the armor every so often would be less painful on the pocket. When he reaches his final size, then you can splurge on something more substantial.

If you instead opted for a Nimble Mithril Breastplate +1, it would cost 8200+ gp and only provide +1 more AC.

Yeah yeah. The only real reason I want to go into the heavy armors is for flavor. I'll probably stick with some cheap stuff for a while, if that.

Runestar
2010-01-21, 03:45 AM
Could you not bribe the party wizard to cast extended mage armour or something?

JeminiZero
2010-01-21, 03:49 AM
Yeah yeah. The only real reason I want to go into the heavy armors is for flavor. I'll probably stick with some cheap stuff for a while, if that.

Buy a hat of disquise. For 1.8k gp, you can make your earth elemental look like he's wearing anything you want.

Plus you could also use it to disguise him as a pile of rocks if trying to smuggle him into a city of some such.

EnnPeeCee
2010-01-21, 03:49 AM
Could you not bribe the party wizard to cast extended mage armour or something?

Oh quite possibly. But that's not nearly as cool.

Edit:

Buy a hat of disquise. For 1.8k gp, you can make your earth elemental look like he's wearing anything you want.

Plus you could also use it to disguise him as a pile of rocks if trying to smuggle him into a city of some such.

Haha. That just seems like cheating my sense of cool.

rezplz
2010-01-21, 03:51 AM
Could you not bribe the party wizard to cast extended mage armour or something?
This would work really well until you wanted to upgrade to better armor. If I'm doing nothing else with my actions I might even toss a shield at your elemental.

Edit: I always forget that shield only is for the caster.


I accept bribes in the form of pizza.


Of course, this is assuming I go with playing my wizard. And that I have extend spell. Meh mage armor lasts a good long time without extend anyway.

And for looking as cool? Psh I'll just say "The suit of mage armor looks like really cool, really badass platemail". Coolness problem solved.

EnnPeeCee
2010-01-21, 03:55 AM
This would work really well until you wanted to upgrade to better armor. If I'm doing nothing else with my actions I might even toss a shield at your elemental.


I accept bribes in the form of pizza.


Of course, this is assuming I go with playing my wizard. And that I have extend spell. Meh mage armor lasts a good long time without extend anyway.

And for looking as cool? Psh I'll just say "The suit of mage armor looks like really cool, really badass platemail". Coolness problem solved.

You know me better than that. I'm stubborn! I don't want it to look like platemail, I want it to BE platemail. But yeah.