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Myou
2010-01-21, 06:43 AM
Weapon Focus, Specialisation and the like all apply to a single chosen weapon, but this seems stupid to me - my players are always thinking up characters that switch between multiple weapons, it's fun and lets them remain useful when the enemy is out of melee range, the problem is that all their weapon-specific feats stop working when they change weapon - the fighter might be great with a greatsword, but pathetic with a bow. It's a pointless limitation that spoils a lot of build ideas. I already changed the way weapon enhancements work, to let them apply to all weapons you own (it would take a while to explain how), so changing this seems like a logical next step.

So what I want to do is change all the feats that require you to pick a specific weapon, to instead affect all weapons with which you are proficient and have spent one month training (or fought ten battles with). So that you can be good with three or four weapons easily. I also want to allow you to gain proficiency with a weapon after one week of training, or three battles.

What do you guys think? And is the training period too long?

Eldariel
2010-01-21, 06:48 AM
Just give Fighters Weapon Aptitude á la Warblades and the problem mostly goes away. It's worth remembering that the Weapon Specialization-line is supposed to effectively be the Weapon Proficiency-system of AD&D, though weaker since it doesn't grant extra attacks and the bonuses are lesser and so on.

As such, I personally enjoy the option of being able to learn the intricacies of one weapon and being really good at it. However, since the feats aren't really very good in 3.X, some kind of a boost would be in order to make this use actually worthwhile. I'd personally rather make for making them numerically better, than expand them to cover all your weapons (there are stats and such for that), since expanding them means there's practically no means of making a character who's "master of X".


That said, Fighter-types should get some bonuses that apply widely to everything since they're supposed to be "masters of all weapons". I'm just not sure whether that something should be Weapon Focus-line. I kinda like what Melee/Ranged Weapon Mastery [PHBII] did though. They sorta got it right.

Cyclocone
2010-01-21, 06:50 AM
What do you guys think? And is the training period too long?

Yes, Warblades can do it while the Wizard catches up on some light reading.


Weapon Aptitude (Ex): [...] You also have the flexibility to adjust your weapon training. Each morning, you can spend 1 hour in weapon practice to change the designated weapon for any feat you have that applies only to a single weapon (such as Weapon Focus). You must have the newly designated weapon available during your practice session to make this change. For example, if you wish to change the designated weapon for your Weapon Focus feat from greatsword to longsword, you must have a longsword available to practice with during your practice session.

You can adjust any number of your feats in this way, and you don't have to adjust them all in the same way. However, you can't change the weapon choices in such a way that you no longer meet the prerequisite for some other feat you possess. For instance, if you have both Weapon Focus (longsword) and Weapon Specialization (longsword), you can't change the designated weapon for Weapon Focus unless you also change the weapon for Weapon Specialization in the same way.

EDIT: Swordsage'd

Myou
2010-01-21, 07:05 AM
Just give Fighters Weapon Aptitude á la Warblades and the problem mostly goes away. It's worth remembering that the Weapon Specialization-line is supposed to effectively be the Weapon Proficiency-system of AD&D, though weaker since it doesn't grant extra attacks and the bonuses are lesser and so on.

As such, I personally enjoy the option of being able to learn the intricacies of one weapon and being really good at it. However, since the feats aren't really very good in 3.X, some kind of a boost would be in order to make this use actually worthwhile. I'd personally rather make for making them numerically better, than expand them to cover all your weapons (there are stats and such for that), since expanding them means there's practically no means of making a character who's "master of X".


That said, Fighter-types should get some bonuses that apply widely to everything since they're supposed to be "masters of all weapons". I'm just not sure whether that something should be Weapon Focus-line. I kinda like what Melee/Ranged Weapon Mastery [PHBII] did though. They sorta got it right.

Weapon Aptitude only applies to one weapon at a time, so it doesn't work - a fighter still can't use a bow then draw a sword when the enemies close in. Also, this problem applies to all melee classes, not only fighters.

But why not learn the intricacies of several weapons? After all, most professional soldiers in the past would master at least three weapons if not more.

The PHBII feats are really limited - they only apply to weapons with the same mechanics as the one you already use, while also going further than my idea - a punching dagger is pretty different to a longspear, yet that feat lets you treat them the same way, without learing to use them.

I just don't see the harm in the melee guys being able to draw a bow or the like, and applying their great experience and skill to the weapon.



Yes, Warblades can do it while the Wizard catches up on some light reading.



EDIT: Swordsage'd


Buuut, this isn't the same, you get to use both weapons all the time if you want. But maybe a compromise? Two weeks/four battles?

ken-do-nim
2010-01-21, 07:08 AM
Just give Fighters Weapon Aptitude á la Warblades and the problem mostly goes away. It's worth remembering that the Weapon Specialization-line is supposed to effectively be the Weapon Proficiency-system of AD&D, though weaker since it doesn't grant extra attacks and the bonuses are lesser and so on.


Do keep in mind that AD&D also had weapon-vs-armor adjustments. So, you might be +3 to hit with a longsword, but that -4 adjustment for attempting to use it against plate makes you want to pick up that footman's flail instead, even though you don't have specialization with it you have an additional +1 or +2 to hit plate so in effect you go from a -1 with the sword to a +1 or +2 with the flail.

AD&D 1E and AD&D 2E and AD&D 2E with PC&T all offer different weapon vs armor tables, btw.

Myou
2010-01-21, 07:10 AM
Do keep in mind that AD&D also had weapon-vs-armor adjustments. So, you might be +3 to hit with a longsword, but that -4 adjustment for attempting to use it against plate makes you want to pick up that footman's flail instead, even though you don't have specialization with it you have an additional +1 or +2 to hit plate so in effect you go from a -1 with the sword to a +1 or +2 with the flail.

AD&D 1E and AD&D 2E and AD&D 2E with PC&T all offer different weapon vs armor tables, btw.

Interesting. :3

Are you suggesting that my idea is a good measure in thier absence?

Eldariel
2010-01-21, 07:20 AM
Weapon Aptitude only applies to one weapon at a time, so it doesn't work - a fighter still can't use a bow then draw a sword when the enemies close in. Also, this problem applies to all melee classes, not only fighters.

But why not learn the intricacies of several weapons? After all, most professional soldiers in the past would master at least three weapons if not more.

The PHBII feats are really limited - they only apply to weapons with the same mechanics as the one you already use, while also going further than my idea - a punching dagger is pretty different to a longspear, yet that feat lets you treat them the same way, without learing to use them.

I just don't see the harm in the melee guys being able to draw a bow or the like, and applying their great experience and skill to the weapon.

My problem is that you're removing the option of specializing in one weapon at the expense of all others, which is what the proficiencies really are meant to accomplish.

As Kendo said though, there was more of an incentive to use different weapons vs. different targets due to the armor tables, so different weapon types were more than means of overcoming different DRs. Man, how do I miss that...

AD&D weapons differed from each other in so many ways compared to 3.X weapons it's not even funny. Different attack speeds, different penetrations, different weapon speeds if using the Altering Initiative rules, etc...


Ahem, but yeah, about your point, I suppose it's doable; keep something like Weapon Master PrC around for those who really want to master one weapon above all others and call it a day.

And fawk, just let them apply the bonus to anything they're proficient in. Being proficient in a weapon means they've trained with it enough to use it in combat, after all.

Myou
2010-01-21, 07:31 AM
My problem is that you're removing the option of specializing in one weapon at the expense of all others, which is what the proficiencies really are meant to accomplish.

As Kendo said though, there was more of an incentive to use different weapons vs. different targets due to the armor tables, so different weapon types were more than means of overcoming different DRs. Man, how do I miss that...

AD&D weapons differed from each other in so many ways compared to 3.X weapons it's not even funny. Different attack speeds, different penetrations, different weapon speeds if using the Altering Initiative rules, etc...


Ahem, but yeah, about your point, I suppose it's doable; keep something like Weapon Master PrC around for those who really want to master one weapon above all others and call it a day.

And fawk, just let them apply the bonus to anything they're proficient in. Being proficient in a weapon means they've trained with it enough to use it in combat, after all.

Is there already a Weapon Master PrC outside of NWN? That would be great if there is.

Aplying it to everything you're proficient with seems a little much to me - it's meant to represent focusing on the chosen weapon, I just want it to be able to focus on a few weapons, to let the character be more flexable.

Eldariel
2010-01-21, 07:36 AM
Is there already a Weapon Master PrC outside of NWN? That would be great if there is.

Aplying it to everything you're proficient with seems a little much to me - it's meant to represent focusing on the chosen weapon, I just want it to be able to focus on a few weapons, to let the character be more flexable.

It's 3.0 in Sword & Fist (most of NWN comes from 3.0) Never got updated (WoTC claimed "Exotic Weapon Master is the update", which is of course bollocks; there's a 3.0 Exotic Weapon Master and the abilities are NOTHING like Weapon Master's), but the 3.0 version is fine, though way heavy on feat requirements.

And meh, then allow him to pick ~5-10 weapons they apply to and use those; it's kinda weird to expand the benefits depending on how much he cares to train with how many weapons. Though I guess it'd make downtime more useful to a warrior. Meh.

paddyfool
2010-01-21, 07:37 AM
I just don't see the harm in the melee guys being able to draw a bow or the like, and applying their great experience and skill to the weapon.

Full BAB and all melee proficiencies was meant to cover this. It really doesn't, however.

Given how the Weapon Focus feat line is underpowered, however, and doesn't scale with levels, I'd suggest something like this (altered/added rules in bold):


Weapon focus
Choose one type of weapon. You can also choose unarmed strike or grapple (or ray, if you are a spellcaster) as your weapon for purposes of this feat.

Prerequisites
*Proficiency with selected weapon, base attack bonus +1.
Benefit
*You gain a +1 bonus on all attack rolls you make using the selected weapon.
*For each 5 points of BAB you have, you may either add an additional +1 to hit with this weapon or choose another weapon to add a +1 to hit with.

Special:
* You may gain this feat multiple times, but may not take a bonus to hit with the same weapon from two different Weapon Focus feats.

Then add a similar line to Weapon Specialisation ("For each 5 points of BAB you have, you may either add an additional +2 to damage rolls with this weapon or choose another weapon to add a +1 to hit with.).

Then for the Greater version of each feat... perhaps something like "Add an additional +1 to hit [+2 to damage for spec] with each weapon for which you have a bonus from Weapon Focus plus an additional +1 for each 10 points of BAB".

So then you could have a level 20 fighter (heh) with something like:

Weapon Focus (Greatsword +5); Weapon Focus (Longbow +3, Unarmed +2); Weapon Specialisation (Greatsword +6, Longbow +2, Unarmed +2); Greater Weapon Focus (Greatsword +3, Longbow +3, Unarmed +3); Greater Weapon Spec (Greatsword +4, Longbow +4, Unarmed +4).

This would add up to: +8 to hit and +10 to damage with a greatsword; +6 to hit and a +6 to damage with a longbow; +5 to hit and +6 to damage when unarmed (and still won't stop any full caster, or ToB class, from laughing at you... although Fighter would then become a bit of a beast in Gestalt).

Eldariel
2010-01-21, 07:40 AM
This would add up to: +8 to hit and +10 to damage with a greatsword; +6 to hit and a +6 to damage with a longbow; +5 to hit and +6 to damage when unarmed (and still won't stop any full caster, or ToB class, from laughing at you... although Fighter would then become a bit of a beast in Gestalt).

This solution has the issue that the optimal choice is to always focus on one weapon so it doesn't really accomplish what it sets out to. Chances are you've only got one highly magical weapon anyways and the game doesn't exactly give you too much incentive to vary weapons so there's really no reason not to get all the bonuses on one weapon.

I think the expansion upon multiple weapons should be near-free. Like, make Weapon Focus allow picking new weapon it applies to every 4 Fighter-levels or whatever. And the bonuses wouldn't still be much compared to e.g. Barbarian; level 20 Barbarian has +4 to hit, +6 to damage from Mighty Rage alone. If he's using Whirling Frenzy, he's also got an extra attack out of the deal.

Moak
2010-01-21, 08:14 AM
Generally,I use Weapon Group Feats (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/weaponGroupFeats.htm) to expand how WeaponFocus/etc work....(this,always. The weapon groups proficency non always)

I don't know how,but you can start from there to create your weapon group structure to enable players to use more weapons with proficency...

Or you can simply make that the bonus is for everyweapon,like you made with the magic enanchments...

Person_Man
2010-01-21, 10:28 AM
Simple fix: At every dead level, the Fighter gains their choice of Exotic Weapon Proficiency, or any of the Weapon Focus or Weapon Specialization feats. Every morning after 8 hours of rest and 1 hour of meditation, they can change any proficiency/focus/specialization.

Honestly, even if they had proficiency and Focus and Specialization with EVERY weapon starting at level 6ish (which they can mostly accomplish with 1 level of Master of Masks anyway, though they'd lose a point of BAB), it wouldn't be a big deal. All melee builds have a built in inventive to use one magic weapon. In most cases they can't really afford to own 2 or more magic weapons, or they have to spend resources making it a Sizing/Adaptable/Whatever weapon.

ken-do-nim
2010-01-21, 10:37 AM
Interesting. :3

Are you suggesting that my idea is a good measure in thier absence?

Maybe, yeah. You just change the text of weapon focus and weapon specialization from "for one weapon" to "for one weapon for every three levels of fighter"; that should simulate the AD&D proficiency system a little better.

Set
2010-01-21, 10:38 AM
Make the Fighter work like the Wizard, Cleric, etc. If he spends an hour a day practicing with a specific weapon, he can apply his Weapon Focus / Specialization / Improved Critical feats to that weapon for the day.

If he wants to apply said Feats to multiple weapons at the same time, perhaps he can purchase a special Feat that allows him to do that as well, or the DM can allow him to spend that hour practicing with a specific *pair* of weapons (longsword and hand axe, for instance) and gain the benefits with those two weapons, as long as he uses them together. If the hand axe gets disarmed, he loses the benefit of that 'style' until he gets a hand axe back in his hand again (or until the next day, when he can spend an hour practicing to re-assign those feats to work with a single longsword).

It might be distracting to have the Fighter grunting away swinging at the air, while the Wizard is trying to prepare spells and the Cleric is burning incense and praying to his goddess, but it flows with what other classes are already doing, taking an hour in the morning to re-arrange their class abilities for the coming day.

Kaiyanwang
2010-01-21, 10:40 AM
Simple fix: At every dead level, the Fighter gains their choice of Exotic Weapon Proficiency, or any of the -> Weapon Focus, or Weapon Specialization feats. Every morning after 8 hours of rest and 1 hour of meditation, they can chage any proficiency/focus/specialization.


Second this.

Moreover, remember Weapon Groups (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/weaponGroupFeats.htm): they are middle-way between the flexibility of Warblade's Weapon Aptitude and thewhole chain of feats to a single weapon (as Eldariel pointed out, there are players that value a lot the concept of a true dedication to a single weapon).

ericgrau
2010-01-21, 11:08 AM
Paying for 2 enchanted weapons is also a problem for versatility. Without solving that weapon focus is fairly moot.

Aldizog
2010-01-21, 11:11 AM
Moreover, remember Weapon Groups (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/weaponGroupFeats.htm): they are middle-way between the flexibility of Warblade's Weapon Aptitude and thewhole chain of feats to a single weapon (as Eldariel pointed out, there are players that value a lot the concept of a true dedication to a single weapon).
What I would do with Weapon Groups is to rule that you take the Weapon Focus feats for a single weapon as normal, but gain the benefits of one level lower expertise with weapons in that group, and two levels lower expertise with all weapons with which you are proficient.

So if you have GWF in the longsword, that also grants you WS in all Heavy Blades, and WF for all Simple and Martial weapons. If you have GWS in one weapon, you have WS in all that you know how to use. Make Melee Weapon Mastery stack with the WF line (not sure if it does already).

Obviously, if the WF/WS/GWF/GWS line is too weak in your game, beef it up, but in a low-optimization game a +1 to hit actually does matter (particularly for iteratives).

If I had a class saddled with Weapon Aptitude, I'd ask if I could trade it away for true specialization at some increased bonus. It doesn't seem right for Inigo Montoya to spend an hour meditating and then entirely switch his 20 years of training from the rapier to the battleaxe. But for his expertise to translate into *some* advantage with an unfamiliar weapon doesn't pose a problem.

Eldariel
2010-01-21, 11:42 AM
Paying for 2 enchanted weapons is also a problem for versatility. Without solving that weapon focus is fairly moot.

Mmm, some more optimized builds generally run with only +2-+3 level weapons only having key ability for their build, and the obligatory +1; then just Greater Magic Weapon and you're done. Such characters can generally do this just fine as long as the Greater Magic Weapon is Chained. That said, yeah, moving as much from the weapon to the character does seem quite optimal.

ericgrau
2010-01-21, 12:05 PM
I assumed +1 weapons with damage enchantments. That's generally the way to go. You're still missing out on damage enchantments if you divide your wealth.

Telonius
2010-01-21, 12:16 PM
It might be distracting to have the Fighter grunting away swinging at the air, while the Wizard is trying to prepare spells and the Cleric is burning incense and praying to his goddess, but it flows with what other classes are already doing, taking an hour in the morning to re-arrange their class abilities for the coming day.

That would also allow the Rogue time to embezzle from the party funds, with no one else to keep an eye on him. :smallbiggrin:

Eldariel
2010-01-21, 12:20 PM
I assumed +1 weapons with damage enchantments. That's generally the way to go. You're still missing out on damage enchantments if you divide your wealth.

Damage enhancements aren't really that necessary for optimized builds out-of-core; you've got other means to boost your damage so you don't need to rely on the weapon.

With such builds, having a bunch of Mw. weapons that get Chain Greater Magic Weaponed alongside your primary weapon that has the one key ability is generally doable. Though that doesn't change the fact that alternative combat styles are generally not competitive without feats to support them, which tends to cause the biggest problems.

Sinfire Titan
2010-01-21, 12:56 PM
If the player likes using a ranged and melee weapon, I suggest giving him a Yuan Ti Serpent Bow (Secrets of Sarlona). It's a double weapon, so Weapon Focus/Spec/Etc apply to it no matter which end you use.

Kaiyanwang
2010-01-21, 01:00 PM
If the player likes using a ranged and melee weapon, I suggest giving him a Yuan Ti Serpent Bow (Secrets of Sarlona). It's a double weapon, so Weapon Focus/Spec/Etc apply to it no matter which end you use.

Isn't that from Serpent Kingdoms? :smallconfused:

Sinfire Titan
2010-01-21, 01:04 PM
Isn't that from Serpent Kingdoms? :smallconfused:

Nope, Eberron's Secrets of Sarlona is the most recent printing. It's more expensive than the Elvencraft Bow (Races of the Wild), but mechanically sound and a tad more flavor than a simple "Hey, the elves are so advanced that they can craft a bow that can also be used as a quarterstaff".

Tehnar
2010-01-21, 01:31 PM
In my campaign I run that fighter gains the weapon focus line automatically for all weapons he is proficient in. Amongst other changes. If he wants to specialize, he has improved critical, supremacy, etc.

So far it works well. Instead of selling weapons they come across, the fighter usually keeps them for himself and switches when needed. Keeping weapons of various enchantments, and materials is pretty useful.

If you think about it, the weapon focus line + weapon mastery replicates a +8 increase in strength with a 2 hander, so its not so bad in itself. Basically 5 feats for +8 STR.

Sinfire Titan
2010-01-21, 01:36 PM
In my campaign I run that fighter gains the weapon focus line automatically for all weapons he is proficient in. Amongst other changes. If he wants to specialize, he has improved critical, supremacy, etc.

So far it works well. Instead of selling weapons they come across, the fighter usually keeps them for himself and switches when needed. Keeping weapons of various enchantments, and materials is pretty useful.

If you think about it, the weapon focus line + weapon mastery replicates a +8 increase in strength with a 2 hander, so its not so bad in itself. Basically 5 feats for +8 STR.

Except you can get +8 Str from a single feat as of Complete Champion for 1 minute/time you take it. It may be a Su source, but it at least beats spending 5 on the same deal.

Curmudgeon
2010-01-21, 01:40 PM
It's 3.0 in Sword & Fist (most of NWN comes from 3.0) Never got updated (WoTC claimed "Exotic Weapon Master is the update", which is of course bollocks; there's a 3.0 Exotic Weapon Master and the abilities are NOTHING like Weapon Master's)
Actually, they rolled three 3.0 classes into Exotic Weapon Master. The official replacement list is here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/20050110x). So, if you're following the rules, none of those 3.0 classes are available.

Eldariel
2010-01-21, 01:41 PM
Actually, they rolled three 3.0 classes into Exotic Weapon Master. The official replacement list is here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/20050110x). So, if you're following the rules, none of those 3.0 classes are available.

Aye, but that's utter bull**** and everyone knows it. They didn't revise but one ability and Weapon Master is completely different from EWM in function.

Kaiyanwang
2010-01-21, 01:49 PM
Aye, but that's utter bull**** and everyone knows it. They didn't revise but one ability and Weapon Master is completely different from EWM in function.

I agree: to support this, just remember the Psionic Version in Mind's Eye: isa far more similar to the 3.0 version, and is official.

Sinfire: thank you for the explaination, I'll take a look.

EDIT: here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20041029a) is it. Take a look in "expanded psionics", the second download. Is stated that the prestige class is 3.5, but is a psywarrior version of the 3.0 (S&F and OAdv) Weapon Master.

Person_Man
2010-01-21, 02:46 PM
Here's another idea:

Weapon Master's Gauntlets: These spiked gauntlets are an enchanted weapon. When a character wearing the gauntlets makes an attack using a non-magical manufactured weapon or unarmed strike (but not other natural attacks), the magical enchantments of the gauntlets also apply to that attack. This magic item cannot be used to apply otherwise illegal enchantments to an attack, or circumvent enchantment restrictions. For example, you could not apply Keen to a blunt weapon or Spell Storing to a ranged weapon. Your DM may also choose to limit certain enchantments to one weapon at a time, such as Dancing or Defending.

Cost: 5,000 gp + magic weapon enchantment costs.

Combine that with my earlier suggestion about free feats for the Fighter on his dead levels, and you should be set.

The only real abuse I can see is that it lowers the cost and raises the effectiveness of Lightning Mace, Anvil of Thunder, and Three Mountains. But even that's not a big deal.

Aldizog
2010-01-21, 02:54 PM
Except you can get +8 Str from a single feat as of Complete Champion for 1 minute/time you take it. It may be a Su source, but it at least beats spending 5 on the same deal.
Ape's Fury from Animal Devotion? It only gets to a +8 Str at level 18, whereas the WF line gets to +8 Str equivalent by level 12 (much more likely to be reached within a campaign), and +6 Str equivalent by level 8 (3 feats for +3 to hit, +4 damage). At level 8, you could take Animal Devotion 3 times or the WF line; the latter would be useful even if you had more than 3 encounters per day, and it would give you a bigger bonus. The former would help more with Trip and Grapple checks. Sounds like a fair trade.

Still, if you think WF is underpowered for your game, feel free to boost it. D&D relies on DM judgment calls.

The number of encounters per day makes a HUGE difference in the merits of Animal Devotion. In general, I'm not a fan of the increase in per-day abilities of late 3.5, particularly the domain devotions and most MIC items. Just seems to encourage going nova even more, whereas innovations like reserve feats, dragon shamans, and warlocks lend themselves to endurance runs, which I prefer. One could say that it's different mechanics for different tastes, but the problem is a mixed party. You could well have the warlock's stamina rendered worthless because the wizard has gone nova and makes everybody rest.