The Harry Dresden Files [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

Finn Solomon

2010-01-21, 07:24 AM

I've just bought about six books from my local store, based on the fairly simple logic that if a series has hundreds of pages on TVTropes, it's gotta be worth checking out. I wasn't disappointed.

I think one of the things that I like best about the series is the portrayal of its female characters. They are strong, they kick ass without being cliched, and they mess up just as well as anyone. I also like the explanations given for how magic works, with fairly believable rules and its basis on mythology. A big selling point is that it's just plain hilarious at several points. I like an author that doesn't take himself too seriously.

Anyone else enjoy this fine series by Jim Butcher?

Satyr

2010-01-21, 07:48 AM

I found the first two books a bit clunky and the plot of those seemed a bit forced. I didn't like the last two or tree books, because the tendency that any character flaw Harry had developed over the time disappeared again, which made the character less interessting (and probably even less interesting than he would have been if he hadn't developed the flaw in the first place; teasing the reader with a more challenged protagonist and the deus ex machinating these challenges away is really disappointing), and the tendency in the last books that other characters who were as powerful or more powerful as Harry were removed, killed or victimised to create more spotlight time and less concurrence for Harry left also a bad taste behind; the end of Lash marked the series decline, from truly great to just good.

Sprainogre

2010-01-21, 01:16 PM

I'm a huge fan of the Dresden files myself. And while some of the more recent books have been a bit choppy, I disagree that the loss of Lash was an inherently bad thing. I liked how Lash went out, personally, and it's in keeping with characters entering and leaving the story. Now, I'd love to see the return of Lash as those parts of his brain heal up, but I don't know if that's going to happen.

I'm just wondering when Dresden's going to start handing out holy blades!! Damn, Butter's will be AWESOME when he get's one!!!

Comet

2010-01-21, 01:20 PM

thorgrim29

2010-01-21, 02:17 PM

Well grave peril is the first truly awesome book of the series, so you're in for a treat (it's got a sex vampire taking a templar to a strip club)

Arcanoi

2010-01-21, 03:31 PM

Grave Peril starts the upward climb from the first couple of books towards Dead Beat, a truly epic literary work.

Sprainogre

2010-01-21, 03:32 PM

Dead Beat is awesome.

Zaydos

2010-01-21, 03:49 PM

I started with Dead Beat and loved it. I enjoyed Fool Moon, Summer's Knight, and the other one I read (can't remember it's name right now). I wish I had the rest of the series, because it is made of awesome. That said Dead Beat was definitely my favorite of them.

Lord Seth

2010-01-21, 04:24 PM

This thread has reminded me that I still have Grave Peril sitting on a shelf unread. I read the first two and decided to have a break because it felt like the novelty and fun would wear off if I read too much of that particular style in one go.
After I finish my current reading project, I'm going to continue reading Dresden.
How good is Grave Peril, by the way? Better than most of the series? Worse than most? Somewhere in-between?Grave Peril is much better than the first two books, and introduces my favorite supporting character (Michael). I think it's the point where the series figured out where it was going and really started working.

Also, at the risk of sounding nitpicky, the series is The Dresden Files, not The Harry Dresden Files.

Tavar

2010-01-21, 04:30 PM

Also, Dead Beat is awesome because it adds some other dimensions to some previously very one dimensional characters. And Turn Coat is awesome.

Also, anyone here read his Codex Alera series?

Sprainogre

2010-01-21, 04:41 PM

I really enjoyed Codex. While it took me a few attempts to get going on the first one, after I did I really liked it and all the books that came after. First Lord's Fury was a great ending to the series.

Blackfang108

2010-01-22, 05:26 PM

Force

2010-01-22, 05:35 PM

This thread has reminded me that I still have Grave Peril sitting on a shelf unread. I read the first two and decided to have a break because it felt like the novelty and fun would wear off if I read too much of that particular style in one go.
After I finish my current reading project, I'm going to continue reading Dresden.
How good is Grave Peril, by the way? Better than most of the series? Worse than most? Somewhere in-between?

Very good. Grave Peril is, I think, the point in the series at which Butcher realized he could get a story arc really going (that, or he wanted to start reeaaalllyyyyy slowly) and began to kick ultimate ass.

Kane

2010-01-22, 06:04 PM

Love the books. I just reread Turn Coat, and then reread Dead Beat through Small Favor in about a week and a half, including, of course, a minor interruption when my library reservation for First Lord's Fury came in. I kind of love everything the author has written.

I also got a friend to read the third book. I considered trying to get him to start the first one, but, in my opinion, the third one is a landmark improvement over the first two.

Incidentally, Dead Beat:

[Harry] "So, what's this Kemmler guy so famous for?"
[Bob the Skull] "Primairly? World war one."
[Harry] "What?! The whole thing?!"
:smallbiggrin:

Can't wait until Changes comes out in April. And, anyone who's read Turn Coat, When/What are Chekhov's Anti-Personnel Mines going to be used/used on?

Incidentally, I must disagree with Satyr's comments, I really approve of Harry, well, learning. I suppose I enjoy my books too much, but I was so proud when [Small Favor, then Turn Coat spoilers] Harry planned the helicopter support-and-extraction from the island,
and
when Harry learned the joys of sub-contracting.

And I'm wondering what magical gubbinz Harry is going to come up with next, as well as why he hasn't made some fairly obvious ones.

Hadessniper

2010-01-22, 06:55 PM

One note should be made, the newest books may not be as good as the best in the series but they are by no means bad. In my opinion they are still some of the most fun novels coming out.

I really can't think of another single author series that has kept it's quality as well as the Dresden files. He is up to book 11 and I'm still eagerly awaiting book 12.

Arcanoi

2010-01-22, 07:05 PM

Incidentally, Dead Beat:

[Harry] "So, what's this Kemmler guy so famous for?"
[Bob the Skull] "Primairly? World war one."
[Harry] "What?! The whole thing?!"
:smallbiggrin:

Not to mention when...

He rides a Tyrannosaurs into combat against a Necromancer and his horde of zombies.

Hadessniper

2010-01-22, 07:17 PM

Not to mention when...

He rides a Tyrannosaurs into combat against a Necromancer and his horde of zombies.

To polka music.

Mr. Spock

2010-01-23, 12:13 AM

The Dresden Files is an awesome series. I can't wait until the next book comes out.:smallbiggrin:

Kane

2010-01-23, 10:02 PM

The Dresden Files is an awesome series. I can't wait until the next book comes out.:smallbiggrin:
April.
You and me, man, you and me.

Erts

2010-01-24, 06:26 PM

I pretty much had the same thing happen to me with TvTropes as you, Finn, just with my library.

Up to White Night, haven't gotten any farther, can't wait till Small Favor and Turn Coat are checked backed in.

My favorite books and parts?

(Warning, spoilers)

Storm Front, which introduced a series that struck me as a rather clever idea, Grave Peril, introduced Michael and Thomas, two of my favorite characters, and had AMAZING pen-ultimate and ultimate final battles, Summer Knight (the last third or so,) anything in Death Masks having to do with the Denarians and the other Knights (in my opinion a far superior plot line to that duel with Ortega, especially the climax with Marcone, Michael, and Harry teaming up,) all of Dead Beat, which is one big CMOA, Proven Guilty, and White Night for the depth.

Shadowbane

2010-01-24, 06:29 PM

I just started the series today, buying Storm Front and Fool Moon. Almost done with the former. I love his tone.

ClericPreston

2010-01-25, 02:59 AM

This series has quickly become one of my favorites. I really love the humor, Bob is especially great, and the foes that Harry goes up against are pretty scary. I also love the supporting cast, especially Micheal, and Thomas. I tried to like Morgan, but he was too much of a hard-line fanatic. White Night was my entry point into the series, and I swiftly caught up after that. I also like the fact that Harry is smart enough to use modern technology when necessary.

grautry

2010-01-25, 03:22 AM

This (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/1248964599329.jpg) picture is a must see in for anyone who's read the series. This (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/review_comments.php?id=515#listtop) review is a must-read as well.

Yep, agree with almost everyone else here that TDF is a prime example of Growing The Beard from Grave Peril and beyond, culminating in the Epic Awesome Masterpiece of Awesomeness that is Dead Beat.

And it's still awesome after DB. So, overall, a really great series.

Not too mention, it's only a couple of weeks before the sample chapters for Changes(which looks very promising) come out. Need... my... Dresden... fix... now! :smallsigh:

Tavar

2010-01-25, 03:25 AM

Hey, everyone here has heard about the leaked first lines of the next book, yes?

Erts

2010-01-25, 07:33 AM

Hey, everyone here has heard about the leaked first lines of the next book, yes?

I don't think they were leaked, so much as Jim Butcher mentioned them on his website, but yeah.

I'm glad that he has decided to bring back Susan and the Red Court to the forefront of the series.

Satyr

2010-01-25, 07:51 AM

Incidentally, I must disagree with Satyr's comments, I really approve of Harry, well, learning.

I have no problem whatsoever with Harry learning or overcoming any problems by himself. What annoyed me in two incidnets where some deus ex machina outside soultions which just happened without the protagonist doing much to earn it.
I mean the burnt hand and Lash.
Both occurences made the character vastly more interesting (yes, I think that a crippled protagonist who has to overcome this drawback is more interesting as an unharrmed one) and that taking away this character development was actually worse than never introducing them.

Kane

2010-01-25, 08:22 PM

I have no problem whatsoever with Harry learning or overcoming any problems by himself. What annoyed me in two incidents where some deus ex machina outside solutions which just happened without the protagonist doing much to earn it.
I mean the burnt hand and Lash.
Both occurrences made the character vastly more interesting (yes, I think that a crippled protagonist who has to overcome this drawback is more interesting as an unharmed one) and that taking away this character development was actually worse than never introducing them.

As far as I know, he still has a burned hand, although it isn't 'make people vomit' looking hand anymore. I assume you're referring to his problems with fire.

As for Lash, I don't see what you're talking about.
That she existed in the first place? That she died? That he redeemed/corrupted her from her purpose?

If it helps, I think TvTropes says that Butcher verified somewhere that, at the very least, we haven't seen the last of her.

Lord of the Helms

2010-01-25, 10:53 PM

As for Lash, I don't see what you're talking about.
That she existed in the first place? That she died? That he redeemed/corrupted her from her purpose?

If it helps, I think TvTropes says that Butcher verified somewhere that, at the very least, we haven't seen the last of her.

Of course, the question is whether we've seen the last of Lash, or the last of Lasciel. If I remember correctly, Butcher mentioned it in an interview where he referred to a woman scorned, so...:smallamused:

Finn Solomon

2010-01-25, 11:14 PM

Nice to see so much love for Michael, I really like him as well. First, a positive portrayal of a family man who genuinely loves his wife and family is something I feel fiction could use more of. Secondly, I like the way he goes about being religious - simple, never pushy, and with compassion. Like Harry says, he's righteous, not self-righteous. I wish more people in real life could be like that.

Hey, who do you guys think Harry will end up with? Susan, Murphy or Elaine?

Vilyathas

2010-01-26, 03:29 AM

Molly Carpenter :smallbiggrin:

Somehow, I don't see Harry ever settling down. Every time he does, something big is going to tear into his living room and he'd be like "Not this again."

Sidenote: has anybody read the Harry Potter fanfic where he got a Denarii like Lasciel?

Avilan the Grey

2010-01-26, 04:18 AM

I love the series too, and I strongly disagree with Satyr; I see logical character development, not deus ex machina.

Hadessniper

2010-01-26, 01:28 PM

Hey, who do you guys think Harry will end up with? Susan, Murphy or Elaine?

There is no way he doesn't end up with Murphy. They are so in love it's not even funny.

Although when they both realize it she will be in her early 50s and he will still be in his early 30s. It's already been something like 10 years in universe since the first book, Murphy should be about 45 now. I think they will realize they are in love then something will kill Murphy and Harry will go nuclear.

Tavar

2010-01-26, 02:37 PM

I don't know. They've admitted that there's something between them, but also that they can't get together in anything but an extremely unhealthy and destructive relationship. Really, I think Susan seems a more likely canidate, especially if you consider his romantic relationship with Elaine was largely in the past.

industrious

2010-01-26, 03:18 PM

Tavar

2010-01-26, 03:24 PM

I actually never liked Susan as a character. She just didn't seem that well-written to me. Relationship-wise, I think that it doesn't matter anyway, since we all know that the natural state of Harry is perpetual bachelorhood. Have to keep the White Court away somehow.

It's not bacherlorhood that keeps the White Court away, it's True Love. Bachelorhood might actually make things worse.

industrious

2010-01-26, 03:27 PM

Yes, but seeing as how Harry didn't have anybody from Death Masks to Small Favor, it certainly helps. Especially because the next book will have Susan in it.
Afterwords, I predict that Dresden will return to his lonely existence in his basement.

Hadessniper

2010-01-26, 03:49 PM

I actually never liked Susan as a character. She just didn't seem that well-written to me.

I have to agree with that. She never quite clicked for me and all of her romantic scenes with Harry seemed forced.

Force

2010-01-26, 04:03 PM

Sidenote: has anybody read the Harry Potter fanfic where he got a Denarii like Lasciel?

I have. Harry became a God Mode Sue far too quickly for my liking, though the story is... interesting.

Pastafarian

2010-01-26, 11:14 PM

I really can't think of another single author series that has kept it's quality as well as the Dresden files. He is up to book 11 and I'm still eagerly awaiting book 12.

The Discworld series keeps quality at least as high for over three times as long.

That said, I have quite enjoyed the series so far, and look forward to the rest.

grautry

2010-01-26, 11:23 PM

There is no way he doesn't end up with Murphy. They are so in love it's not even funny.

Maybe but the problem is that this story doesn't have a happy ending.

Harry is somewhat of a romantic and having to outlive your One True Love by three hundred years or so doesn't sound like much fun.

IMO the safest bet for "Who's Harry going to end up with?" is someone who shares his unusually long lifespan. Maybe Molly if she grows up. Maybe he'll get back with Susan, half-vampires probably also have a long lifespan.

Or maybe Lara's finally going to get her hooks into Harry, there's certainly been plenty of foreshadowing for that.

OTOH if Harry was more like non-brainwashed Thomas then he would get on with Murphy. Better to have loved and lost than to never have loved at all and all that jazz.

industrious

2010-01-26, 11:31 PM

I support Harry/Lara. Assuming that Butcher could make it work somehow. Because enslaving your main character is usually not the best career move.

Tavar

2010-01-26, 11:41 PM

So....then Thomas would be his step-brother and his brother-in-law? Kinky.

Hadessniper

2010-01-27, 12:50 AM

Harry is somewhat of a romantic and having to outlive your One True Love by three hundred years or so doesn't sound like much fun.

IMO the safest bet for "Who's Harry going to end up with?" is someone who shares his unusually long lifespan. Maybe Molly if she grows up. Maybe he'll get back with Susan, half-vampires probably also have a long lifespan.

Or maybe Lara's finally going to get her hooks into Harry, there's certainly been plenty of foreshadowing for that.

There is as much of a chance for Murphy to gain long life as there is for Lara finding a way to love.

As for Molly I could see it happening but not for at least twenty plus years. He simply wouldn't stop seeing her as a kid or his student for a long time.

Luccio and Harry don't love each other and they both know it.

Elaine is to feels too much like Harry's past to be his future if you know what I mean.

Susan also feels like she's too far in Harry's past.
Although the first line of the new book suggests otherwise.
I answered the phone, and Susan Rodriguez said, "They've taken our daughter."
But that seems like a big fat red herring to mess with the spoiler happy fans.

It's possible that the "DIE ALONE" curse will work as intended, but ultimately the Murphy relationship has been foreshadowed way to much for it not to play out in some way. I mean whenever two characters deny their love because they think it would never work out it's a safe bet that they are going to end up in a relationship after a long hard road of self denial. Knowing Jim Butcher it probably will end in tragedy but that doesn't mean it's not going to happen.

Avilan the Grey

2010-01-27, 06:52 AM

I actually never liked Susan as a character. She just didn't seem that well-written to me.

She was (is) also one of the few characters in the series that was holding an obvious oh-so-shiny idiot ball.

Oh and my dream would be Harry / Lara, but I won't be disappointed, I trust Jim's writing skills no matter what.

Finn Solomon

2010-01-27, 07:33 AM

KnightDisciple

2010-01-27, 08:52 AM

"DIE ALONE" and loving Murphy wouldn't be mutually exclusive, after all.:smallwink:

I'm in the camp that thinks Murphy will possibly lose her SI job soon, and take up the sword. Recall she said "I already have a job" as her main objection.

Of course, there's still that "Apocalyptic Trilogy" to consider...

Avilan the Grey

2010-01-29, 02:51 AM

Harry / Lara Raith? Eeeeeeeeew! She's an evil seductress succubus who has little to no morals! That kiss to save both their lives was sexy though.

I think Molly is really cute, but it would feel just wrong being the daughter of his good friend and all. Plus Charity would probably slaughter Harry.

I kinda agree about Susan being a rather bland character, but I think it's mostly due to the fact she's not been in the books as much as the other love interests. Elaine also suffers in this respect..

She is a monster (Lara). But she cares way too much for Harry for her own good. All I am saying that there is enough tension between them that if Jim would make it go in that direction it would work.

As for Molly... Eeeeeeeeew! That is just... WRONG.

Susan's biggest problems are:
1. Written (temporarely) out of the series before Jim really got good at this.
2. The only person in the series with a visible idiot ball.

Hadessniper

2010-01-29, 03:35 AM

As for Molly... Eeeeeeeeew! That is just... WRONG.

Molly in the near future is Eeeeeeeeew, but in 20 to 30 years they will be physically around the same age, her parents will be elderly or dead, and assuming they stay close she will be one of his closest female friends who isn't out aging him. It wouldn't be hard to see them getting together then.

Avilan the Grey

2010-01-29, 05:34 AM

Molly in the near future is Eeeeeeeeew, but in 20 to 30 years they will be physically around the same age, her parents will be elderly or dead, and assuming they stay close she will be one of his closest female friends who isn't out aging him. It wouldn't be hard to see them getting together then.

Obviously it gets better with age, however I still favor Lara... What a way to go :smallamused:

Eldan

2010-01-31, 12:29 PM

I've started reading them a month or so ago, and I like them quite a bit. The only problem? They are too damn short. Last me two, three days each, so I have to save them.

Anyway, what I've always asked myself: where did Harry get his pop culture knowledge? I mean, he can't use a computer, and probably no TV either, how can he know geek culture?

KnightDisciple

2010-01-31, 01:12 PM

He can read books and comics. And he can likely go to older theaters, especially in his younger days (recall, he didn't start wizard training until around 16). Plus he's friends with several nerd-ish types (the werewolves).

Tavar

2010-01-31, 03:19 PM

Why only old style theaters. As long as he doesn't sit near the projecter, he's fine. Also, printouts.

Avilan the Grey

2010-02-01, 04:31 AM

I also love the fact that Jim is such a geek. :smallbiggrin:

Eldan

2010-02-01, 06:23 AM

True. Oh well..

Another thing: has anyone here read the graphic novels? Are they any good? I've only seen the black and white ads in the back of the books and, well, my first thought was "I don't think Harry looks like that."

Cheesegear

2010-02-01, 07:33 AM

I've only seen the black and white ads in the back of the books and, well, my first thought was "I don't think Harry looks like that."

The really good thing about the TV Series is they got Harry's appearance right. At least, I prefer to think of him like this (http://www.macobserver.com/columns/freeonitunes/2007/01/20070126dresden1.jpg), rather that what he apparently looks like (http://www.jim-butcher.com/pics/sfwall/smallfavor_800x600.jpg).

Pity the rest of the TV Series is...Wrong. But, it's TV. Not books. I like the TV Series. Even though I may just be the only one who does.

Eldan

2010-02-01, 07:35 AM

Blackfang108

2010-02-02, 12:52 PM

Pity the rest of the TV Series is...Wrong. But, it's TV. Not books. I like the TV Series. Even though I may just be the only one who does.

You're not. I was PISSED when they cancelled it. :smallmad:

And then when I heard WHY they cancelled it, I was even MORE pissed. :smallfurious:

Blackthorne did a darn good job. (According to Jim, Adam Baldwin was also in the running for Dresden. That would have been interesting.)

crazedloon

2010-02-09, 01:20 AM

So I decided to not read the thread before I got done with the last book and I can only agree with everyone this is perhaps my favorite series I have ever read. I appreciate the way he mixes fantasy with the actual world so well without making the reader bend there mind around an entirely new world structure.

Any who I have a few theories I would like to see some opinions on (besides the love thing):

so that Harry's mother Margret lefay = Morgan lefay? seems likely with all the other references to Arthurian legend, the fact that she was allies with the council than an enemy and then an ally.

The Island was watched by Margret as a warden but it seems to have a much darker power capable of even defeating a demi god

My theories is that ether Merlin (i.e. the real original one) is on the island and it is his prison and the enchantments on the tower and cottage were set by Margret or Merlin to keep him in or out. Or that the island is equivlent to Avalon and Arthur is on the Island waiting to return both things being closely related to Morgan lefay

Lawless III

2010-02-09, 02:19 AM

Wow, GITP never fails to amaze me. I have never found a single other person who read these. You're all wonderful people.

I don't really read a lot of fantasy/sci-fi books, but I really got into this series. It just has a lot more intrigue and better pacing than most series I've tried in the genre. Page 1 of Storm Front I was totally sucked in. I think Jim Butcher found a pretty unique place with the whole Chicago wizard/detective scene. I tried the Codex series, but it just didn't make the same impression. That may just be because I've grown rather tired of swords and horses high fantasy fare.

I also found this through tvtropes and I've only gone on there like twice. Eerie.

Eldan

2010-02-09, 04:50 AM

Finished Dead Beat.

Woah.

I mean, I knew someone would... you know, with the... it was obvious... but Harry?!

Woah. :smallwink:

lord_khaine

2010-02-09, 05:56 AM

I have. Harry became a God Mode Sue far too quickly for my liking, though the story is... interesting.

I disagree about this, Harry got so many enemies that outclass him by far that its not even funny, the only guy he fought who was weaker than him was the Sorcerer in book 1, and the werewolf in book 2, after that we have people like the Denarians, Farie queens and elder shapeshifting horrors who would all crush Harry like a bug if he fought them in a straight up fight.

Lord of the Helms

2010-02-09, 06:19 AM

Can't see the picture.

But what I was talking about was this picture:

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_YhrLAYLQ8So/SOVD8f5u5FI/AAAAAAAAE7c/r2A2-10uFCE/s400/Storm+Front+image.jpg

Which is the one used in the ads in the back of my books. It's less bad in colour, actually. But in black and white, with some stubble, he just look too much "generic action hero bad ass".

Also, on the book covers, they make a point of not showing his face, so you can't really tell what he looks like.

Personally, I have the Welcome to the Jungle prequel and the first Storm Front hardcover. Overall it works quite well in comic form, I believe, probably because Jim Butcher's primary influence was always Spider-Man to begin with. The artwork is mostly quite good overall; it suffers a little bit from being close to American superhero comics, in that even though the artist is trying to tone it down, Dresden still looks a bit too muscular and in overly good shape (basically, the way he's drawn would mean he's of rather slight build by comic standards, meaning he looks like someone who regularly works out at the gym a lot by real-world standards, and some of the ladies are also rather, ahem, over-attributed). I personally would prefer a slighter, more realistic style (think Le Franc, or maybe, the closest thing I've seen from the US, was probably Marvel's X-Factor as drawn circa Civil War era); Butcher himself said most of the characters are very close to how he pictures them, so take from that what you will.

Still the medium, artwork an narration works quite well. And since special effects are much cheaper in comic form, you can get all the explosions, fire, lightning and glowy magic you could wish for in a Dresden comic. :smallamused:

Also:

Finished Dead Beat.

Woah.

I mean, I knew someone would... you know, with the... it was obvious... but Harry?!

Woah. :smallwink:

Yes. Just Yes. There's a reason Dead Beat is considered pretty much everyone's favorite, and it's this. :smallcool:

Satyr

2010-02-09, 09:57 AM

BRC

2010-02-09, 10:09 AM

Which makes it all the more jaring that he is constantly winning and that nothing bad seems to stack to him.
He usually ends up winning by outhinking his foes rather than overpowering them, and he's tough enough that his enemies would need to actually prepare and plan to kill him, rather than just offhandedly walking into Chicago and beating him into a bloody pulp offhandedly. Or there is something stopping them from simply taking petty vengeance.
Now, Harry does have some Sueish qualities, but the fact that he wins isn't one of them, he's a protagonist, it's his job. He Wins after considerable thinking ,planning, and struggle if he just waltzed in and started blasting it would be a different story.

Satyr

2010-02-09, 10:16 AM

crazedloon

2010-02-09, 10:18 AM

Which makes it all the more jaring that he is constantly winning and that nothing bad seems to stack to him.

Ignore this if you have not read them all

He has lost a friend (or important character) in pretty much every book if I am think correctly (besides the first one)

Carmichael in full moon
Susan grave peril
His godmother and the one half ling Summer Knight (I think it was this one where his godmother disappeared)
Shiro in Deathmask
Justine in blood rites
a few wardens (which are less important characters and more of an emotional blow) in dead beat
A bunch of minor characters die and Murphy loses her job in Proven Guilty
The minor practitioners in white night
Micheal nearly in small favors
Kirby and Morgan in Turn coat

Each of the above further his character and prove time and time again that Dresden can not control everything and due to being outmatched he loses friends and companions. Also in the last two books Dresden didn't even beat the badguys himself but had others do it around him.

Edit:
also the hand (and fear of fire) never was a handicap except for one book
Lash still is an important part of his character but has been replaced with a new means of growth i.e. the soulfire

And he has had situations where he has thought he new everything and even as a character gotten overconfident (i.e. when Mab had wiped his memory of his ability to use fire

BRC

2010-02-09, 10:22 AM

What annyos me is not that he wins. That is pretty much a given in a first person narrative of this genre.
What personally annoyed me about the last three or so books were that a lot of the interesting drawbacks - the hand, Lash - were removed. Both handicaps made the character much more interesting (especially Lash), and the removal of these weaknesses not only made the character less interesting, it also creates the impression that nothing bad sticks to him.
Removing those flaws dosn't make him a god mode sue.

But anyway.
His Hand was interesting for a book, but I have a feeling it would have gotten boring as things progressed.
Removing Lash was a different process, that was de-powering Harry. While Lash was an interesting character aspect, her presence meant that Harry could speak pretty much any language, had photographic memory, ect. The Downside of was was the whole "Trying to get Harry's soul" thing, but seeing as Butcher wasn't about to turn Harry into a denarian, it was essentially a straight power boost.

Satyr

2010-02-09, 10:25 AM

Most of the characters you listed - with a few exceptions are typical redshirt kills.

crazedloon

2010-02-09, 10:36 AM

Most of the characters you listed - with a few exceptions are typical redshirt kills.

I will agree and disagree with you

Carmichael in full moon (biggest skeptic mortals as well as one of the reasons IMHO that Murphy didnt warm up to harry right away)
Susan grave peril (a main love interest, mother of his child)
His godmother and the one half ling Summer Knight (I think it was this one where his godmother disappeared) (godmother is a rather important character particularly because sh has direct links with his mother)
Shiro in Deathmask (you could say a redshirt but I liked him :smalltongue:)
Justine in blood rites (She becomes a pivotal character latter and is a character flaw for Thomas)
a few wardens (which are less important characters and more of an emotional blow) in dead beat (red shirts)
A bunch of minor characters die and Murphy loses her job in Proven Guilty (red shirts however Murphy's job lost team Dresden a lot of power and mortal control)
The minor practitioners in white night (red shirts)
Micheal nearly in small favors (he is pretty much out of the series at this point without a sword so he might as well be dead and he was my favorite character)
Kirby and Morgan in Turn coat (Morgan though rarely seen is a rather important character as he represents the anal retentiveness of the council and he has been around since book 1)

So out of 11 books only 4 are fully just redshirts or have no death, Seems like a high death(disappearance) count for characters in any series

Force

2010-02-09, 11:48 AM

I disagree about this, Harry got so many enemies that outclass him by far that its not even funny, the only guy he fought who was weaker than him was the Sorcerer in book 1, and the werewolf in book 2, after that we have people like the Denarians, Farie queens and elder shapeshifting horrors who would all crush Harry like a bug if he fought them in a straight up fight.

I believe I was referring to the Harry *POTTER* fanfiction "The Denarian Renegade", a fanfic that, while good, upgrades Harry P. to mary sue demigod status fairly quickly:

He gets Fidelacchius AND a Denarian coin (with a Denarian that doesn't seem to want to control him), magical powerups to the point that he can go toe-to-toe with some of the big bads in the Dresdenverse and come out on top... and overshadows Harry Dresden like you wouldn't believe. Mary Sue syndrome here we come.

grautry

2010-02-09, 01:01 PM

I believe I was referring to the Harry *POTTER* fanfiction "The Denarian Renegade", a fanfic that, while good, upgrades Harry P. to mary sue demigod status fairly quickly:

He gets Fidelacchius AND a Denarian coin (with a Denarian that doesn't seem to want to control him), magical powerups to the point that he can go toe-to-toe with some of the big bads in the Dresdenverse and come out on top... and overshadows Harry Dresden like you wouldn't believe. Mary Sue syndrome here we come.

Well, not really the "big bads". The strongest being he went toe to toe with was Meave, who while very powerful is nowhere near the top of the food chain.

And anyway, sure, Harry(Potter) is extremely powerful in that story but that's sort of part of the fun. It's like the Devil May Cry series, where every single character is ludicrously overpowered and that's precisely the reason you enjoy the story.

And even then, he does have real, noticeable flaws. He's a grade-A sociopathic jerkwad(which we only don't notice because he's funny and witty) who has at best, minor understanding of the concept of humanity. Oh, and without the coin he turns into a blubbering mess. Sure, he might not be a card-carrying villain but make no mistake, he's an anti-villain at best.

Also, Harry Dresden isn't really in any way relevant to the story so the comparison of power is pretty meaningless. He basically had a cameo or two.

Major spoiler for that story below:
And as far as I remember - he got Fidelachius because it was a part of Heaven's Xanatos Gambit to melt Meciel's coin in the end.

And yeah, I agree that Meciel should've had a stronger personality and should've been more involved. Harry got way too much from her for way too little.

In conclusion, the Denarian Renegade(/Knight/Lord) series is IMO, an example of some of the best fanfiction there is. Even if Harry is a Gary Stu.

Jade_Tarem

2010-02-09, 01:27 PM

What annyos me is not that he wins. That is pretty much a given in a first person narrative of this genre.
What personally annoyed me about the last three or so books were that a lot of the interesting drawbacks - the hand, Lash - were removed. Both handicaps made the character much more interesting (especially Lash), and the removal of these weaknesses not only made the character less interesting, it also creates the impression that nothing bad sticks to him.

I'm also going to have to disagree. As someone has already pointed out, replacing Lash with Soulfire actually is a downgrade in power for him (and Butcher has said we haven't seen the last of Lash, so while an interesting character was written out, she may be coming back).

The hand thing isn't a Deus Ex Machina - it's an explanation, or a partial one, of why wizards live for so long, and it applies to every wizard on the planet, including Harry's enemies. I mean, Cowl apparently recovered from being vaporized, and you're complaining about the hand? Really?

Melayl

2010-02-09, 01:42 PM

The Dresden Files is really (in my opinion) one of the best series out there. I got hooked from the TV series (which still pales in compareson to the books).

I'd have to disagree with Satyr as well. I haven't felt that anything in this series was forced, or deus ex machina. Harry wins/survives primarily because he:
1) is consistently underestimated by his enemies
2) out-thinks his enemies
3) has friends willing to fight and die for him (and occasional enemies willing to fight for him)
4) he's too damned stubborn to die

crazedloon

2010-02-09, 01:48 PM

I will admit one thing In Small Favors Murphy does a weird backtracking of her character back to the time when she didn't trust Dresden and wanted to be in on everything even when Harry (and she) knows that it would be a bad idea to know everything. It seemed like a weird change that had no warrant or apparent cause and in the next book she was back to the normal progression of character that she had up to that point.

Also butters and Murph as Knights of the cross would be awesome :smallbiggrin:

Jade_Tarem

2010-02-09, 03:47 PM

I can see Murphy as a Knight, but not Butters. Murphy has a ton of martial arts training and all of those Knightly qualities, but Butters doesn't meet the Minimum Badass Quota necessary to take up one of the swords.

crazedloon

2010-02-09, 05:49 PM

you don't need bad ass skills you just need royal blood and faith

KnightDisciple

2010-02-09, 06:44 PM

you don't need bad ass skills you just need royal blood and faith

But Butters doesn't really even have faith (can't comment on the royal blood).

Murphy has at least some religious background, and more than that, she believes in things like the Law and Society and so forth.

Her being picked by what is, quite literally, the Sword of Faith makes perfect sense.

Consider her reaction: "I already have an oath to uphold."

That's faithfulness, right there.

Butters...he's cool, in his own way, but he's just not Knight material.

Eldan

2010-02-10, 02:33 AM

I actually already noticed that a few books earlier: I think it was in the one in which the Denarians showed up first (I'm bad with titles). Butcher was throwing the word "faith" around a lot whenever Murphy was around.

Cheesegear

2010-02-10, 02:55 AM

Butters...he's cool, in his own way, but he's just not Knight material.

But, God sees hearts, right? Butters wants to help. He just doesn't have the knowledge or the skills to do so. Now, if he did...

Maybe Butters isn't awesome now, but, rather, becomes badass when he receives his sword. Or, maybe, sometime soon, he just takes a level in Badass.

He knows Dresden and what makes him tick. He's clued-in to what's up. He has made a Circle before all on his own, and has rode on the back of a giant dinosaur.

If Butters 'becomes awesome', I wont say that I didn't see it coming. But, I wont really be surprised if it doesn't happen either.

grautry

2010-02-10, 04:15 AM

Maybe Butters isn't awesome now, but, rather, becomes badass when he receives his sword. Or, maybe, sometime soon, he just takes a level in Badass.

Y'know, about Butters.

Remember when Cassius was cutting up Harry in Dead Beat? What Harry was thinking then was "Hey, it would be really nice if one of those Knights turned up at this moment".

Who turned up at that precise moment to help? Butters.

Now, if that's not foreshadowing, I don't know what is.

Mauve Shirt

2010-02-10, 10:46 AM

I'm just here to say that the Dresden Files is one of the best and most addicting series I've ever read.

KnightDisciple

2010-02-10, 11:59 AM

Butters, in my mind, would be better suited staying where he is. He's a very valuable resource for both Harry and SI. He's doing what he's good at.

And while he stood up under pressure, he's not really tried to seek action out again. In my mind, that says he'll likely stay roughly where he is.

I think we'll just have to wait and see; there are still many books before the final trilogy.

Finn Solomon

2010-02-11, 07:06 AM

Would Harry be able to best John Constantine? I think they are very similar characters.

Timothy33

2011-04-13, 04:58 PM

First I have to say LOVE the susan/harry relationship, Molly--too young, seems like a father/daughter thing, murphy--too headstrong and way like a boss/worker thing, yuck, susan/harry always seemed like the real thing, esp the way he loved to be her protector and all. murphy just is way too headstrong and overwhelming for him I think and molly just like someone else said, ewww factor.

had to toss that in there.