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Alcopop
2010-01-21, 07:38 AM
I am normally fairly comfortable with playing mainly role-play characters in dnd, if not competent ones. But lately the GMing of one of my friends is pushing me to be... a little more viscious.

His combats are hell, he is a rules nazi, so he sticks to cr but he treats combats like an exercise in killing PCs. His last three sessions have pretty much ended in either TPK or escape via deus ex machina.

So what has the teeth to bite back? I don't want to break his game but I'm not going down without a fight! Fifth level, no tomes. max HP.

Anythoughts?

Longcat
2010-01-21, 07:45 AM
Have you tried resolving this issue by talking with your GM? To me, this seems more like an OOC problem.

Pharaoh's Fist
2010-01-21, 07:46 AM
Summon Mirror Mephit, Expedition to Demonweb Pits, Sor/Wiz 2

Live long and prosper.

Kaiyanwang
2010-01-21, 08:08 AM
Have you tried resolving this issue by talking with your GM? To me, this seems more like an OOC problem.

This is IMO the best solution.. other ones could lead to dangerous escalations.

Jan Mattys
2010-01-21, 08:22 AM
Roleplaying games are cooperative, not competitive.

If you think you have to "bite back" on your GM's actions, you're doing it wrong. Or HE's doing it wrong.

Talk to him out of character. Why? 2 reasons:

1) In a vs fight, he's going to curbstomp you. No point in going for the "armaments race" vs a GM, really. He's just going to punch you in the face easily while laughing. So don't even try.

2) Talking solves problems. Fighting back is always a second, sub-optimal and often unnecessary, option.

bosssmiley
2010-01-21, 09:25 AM
It sounds a bit like your DM wants to make combat as violent and dangerous as its really supposed to be. Discuss matters with him, and see if his "war is hell" attitude is a deliberate aesthetic choice.

Combat being a meatgrinder, and the DM having bigger battalions, I'd suggest that from now on you don't fight on his terms, and instead adopt SWAT/asymmetrical warfare tactics.

Sneak. Ambush. Hit-and-run. Try to deny the enemy their strengths, and make them fight at a time and place of your choosing. Never give the enemy an even break. Ideally you should already be at the 'mopping up exercise' stage by the time the beatstick boys crash home, shining swords a-swinging. :smallwink:

Gnaeus
2010-01-21, 09:30 AM
Druid 5. Good saves and HP. Large pet to act as meatshield. Wildshape lets you melee or flee. If he is really as dangerous in combat as you say, consider:
Gnome Druid 5, stats 1 Wis, 2 Con, 3-6 any. L1 Improved Initiative, L3 Companion Spellbond, L6 Natural spell. Pet dire bat at level 5, swapped out for an ape or bear at level 6. Skills: Concentration, Ride, any others.

Strategy: Ride the bat until level 6. Stay in air whenever possible if fighting earthbound opponents. Support your party with ranged spells, and if things go south, fly away. After level 6, swap your mount for a bruiser. He can go in and support your melees backed by your buffs. Stay wildshaped as a Desmodu Bat all day long (blindsight + really high dex+ flying = win), never enter melee combat.

Can't get much safer than that at that level, but still contributes to the party.

Alcopop
2010-01-21, 07:43 PM
Druid sounds good, especially combined with those swat tactics.

As for the "talking too" suggestions. I have tried before and it doesn't work.

My options are either not going or meeting his terms combat wise.

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-01-21, 08:00 PM
Option I: Okay, you want a special forces guerrilla warfare specialist?

Wildshape Ranger going into Master of Many Forms. You've got the stealth and ambush detection skills to avoid ambush and set them yourself. You've also got the Knowledge: Nature, Subterranean and Dungeoneering to be able to be savvy in just about any combat setting. Turn into a Fleshraker and win. Next level, win harder.

Option II: The Scariest Damn Samurai You Ever Saw

This guy is a cheese of battlefield control. Here (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=153726) is his Level 13 character sheet. Right now, he's a Rogue1/CW Samurai 4. Able Learner and Craven are your two feats. The first lets you pick up all the skills on the Rogue skill list, the other lets you do your character level in bonus damage on every sneak attack.

The high points of this build: Once you hit Exemplar, you completely own every encounter, as everything within 30' of you simply start cowering every round, with no real hope of making the check. Even before then, however, your Intimidate check can be boosted to sufficient levels that no opponent will be able to make it.

Option III: Glaivelock

Warlock4/Binder1. Has taken Eldritch Glaive, and bound Naberous. Go back to Warlock next two levels, then head for Hellfire Warlock. From there, Legacy Champion. Eat My Damage Output.

Option IV: The Goddamn Batman

All right, you asked for it, here it is. Conjurer3/Master Specialist 2. Trade in Familiar for teleport ability from PhB II. Never blast. By now you should be throwing around Stinking Cloud, Glitterdust, and Grease as your three main Save or Loose effects. Haste and Slow should also be involved somewhere as a one-two combo. Look up Incantatrix, that's going to be your next 10 levels. Ban Evocation and Enchantment. Have a nice day.

Option V: You asked for it, there's Gnome turning back now.

For a maximum-cheese effect, Whisper Gnome Illusionist going into Shadowcaster. Will shortly be able to cast any spell in the game, and if you make the Will save, it will actually do MORE damage to you than if you fail it.

Foryn Gilnith
2010-01-21, 08:05 PM
I think it laughable to assume any characters will survive to seventh level, given the premises. Shadowcraft Mage is cheese, but it's woefully inadequate. You need something like Simulacrum abuse.

Lord Thurlvin
2010-01-21, 08:13 PM
His combats are hell, he is a rules nazi, so he sticks to cr but he treats combats like an exercise in killing PCs. His last three sessions have pretty much ended in either TPK or escape via deus ex machina.

He sticks to CR but you're still getting slaughtered? An example would be helpful.

arguskos
2010-01-21, 08:25 PM
I think it laughable to assume any characters will survive to seventh level, given the premises. Shadowcraft Mage is cheese, but it's woefully inadequate. You need something like Simulacrum abuse.
That would be why Pharaoh mentioned Summon Mirror Mephit in the second post. :smallbiggrin:

It's like the most hilarious spell ever. I fully support it's use in this circumstance.

Tyndmyr
2010-01-21, 08:32 PM
I agree...it's possible to slaughter low level characters with equal CR mobs(swarms vs melee, ape vs caster, etc), but we need examples to give much in the way of useful advice.

Bibliomancer
2010-01-21, 08:34 PM
It sounds like the original DnD: DM attempts to kill players with level-appropriate challenges.

I would support the recommendation to ambush. Refuse to go anywhere without a LOT of reconnaissance, and spend every night in an Extended Rope Trick spell.

If the entire party is rebuilding, replace all front line players with rogues or swordsages for additional ambush capacity. My party is playing through Red Hand of Doom and is doing quite well (despite a moderate to low level of optimization and a DM who is converting the NPCs in the module to far more effective class/level/equipment synergies) with a Wizard, two Rogues, and a Swordsage (originally a useless due to lack of stealth Warblade).

I would also recommend investing in a Wand of Invisibility.

faceroll
2010-01-21, 08:35 PM
Hey I joined just so I could share this neat trick I figured out.

Make a half-minotaur goliath. Half-minotaur is a template that increases your size if you are small or medium, gives you +4 str AND EXPLICITLY gives you the benefits (and drawbacks) of going up a size category, which is +8 more strength. Then goliath gives you +4 strength. So for a low LA of +2, you're getting two effective size increases, +16 str, +some other nice things (like scent, track, natural armor, con, and a gore attack), and you lose some stuff you don't care about. With three levels of psychic warrior and the practiced manifester feat, at 7th level you can increase your size by 2 categories, bringing you up to gargantuan size and treating you as effectively colossal whenever it would be convenient.

I would take one level of lion spirit totem barbarian for pounce, and the whirling frenzy rage variant for more attacks.

Sources:
Races of Stone (goliath)
Dragon 313 (half minotaur)
Complete Champion (lion totem barb)
Unearthed Arcana (rage variant)
expanded psionics handbook and complete psionics (psionics stuff)

I wouldn't normally recommend a caster for such low level optimization, as you won't have the offensive suite of spells to actually win an encounter. However, there are a few hilarious tricks you can pull:

Fast sorcerer advancement.
The classic is a dragonwrought kobold with the dragonspawn template, the loredrake template, and a ritual, for a +4 effective sorc casting at level 6, so you cast as a 10 level sorcerer.

The crack version of fast advancement is using a race called the Phaerimm from Lost Empires of Faerun that has an ECL of 4 (2 hd, 2 la). For every level of sorcerer you take, the phaerimm gives you a level of sorcerer. So you can be throwing around 9th level spells by ecl 10. The Phaerimm looks like a Marlboro from the Final Fantasy series, and is an evil aberration. If you start at ecl5, then you will be casting as a 4th level sorcerer. Pick up invisibility and hide when things get bad until you can gain another level. Then every level you gain gets you +2 sorc levels.

A druid with the greenbound summoning feat (lost empires again) turns the animals he summons into plants that get massive bonuses to their stats, and also can cast some spells at will (like entangle!!!). Combine that with ashbound (doubles duration of summons & gives them +3 attack) from eberron campaign setting book, and at fifth level you can have 3 minions out spamming entangle for a whole minute. That's like 30 castings of the spell. Pick up the natural bond feat to get a warbeast (it's on crystalkeep, can't remember the book) magebred (eberron again) fleshraker (monster manual 3) dinosaur. Natural bond lets your fleshraker gain the full benefits of your druid levels, instead of being at -4. Magebred and warbeast are templates you put on animals that make them BADASS.

FMArthur
2010-01-21, 08:42 PM
It might just be a DM trying to get his group to optimize a little, and not an overly aggressive nutjob trying to "win" against the players. I agree with the OPs course of action: try out something mechanically strong and see if he ups the ante in response. If he does, there is an issue to be sorted out. If he doesn't, the issue is sorted. :smallwink:

Gnaeus
2010-01-22, 08:41 AM
Make a half-minotaur goliath.

I would take one level of lion spirit totem barbarian for pounce, and the whirling frenzy rage variant for more attacks.

I wouldn't normally recommend a caster for such low level optimization,

Half Minotaur Goliath Barbarian Psi Warrior isn't bad optimization for a higher level game, but at 5th level you are a bigger than large creature with less than 30 HP, mediocre AC, and bad saves. Yes, you are very likely to hurt or kill anything you hit, but you are also very likely to be targeted and killed yourself.

Gnaeus
2010-01-22, 08:55 AM
Option I: Wildshape Ranger going into Master of Many Forms.

Solid tier 3 build. Druid 5 is absolutely better tho. 3rd level spells and a level equivalent pet beat 2 points of BaB. The reason people recommend MoMF for Ranger and not for Druid is that druid levels are provably better.


Option II: The Scariest Damn Samurai You Ever Saw
The high points of this build: Once you hit Exemplar, you completely own every encounter.

You are never going to hit exemplar in the campaign described. At level 5-6, there are much better builds than rogue 1/Samurai 4-5.



Option III: Glaivelock

Another decent build. Not, however, optimized for survivability.


Option IV: The Goddamn Batman

Heres a top of the line T1 build. I like it. My only concern is that it is squishy, and if you run out of abrupt jaunt or face AOEs you could be in trouble. Still, with good spell selection, tactics and luck it has a lot going for it.


Option V: You asked for it, there's Gnome turning back now.

As mentioned by Foryn, another excellent build which is not likely to survive long enough to reach its sweet spot.

mikej
2010-01-22, 09:00 AM
Pick up the natural bond feat to get a warbeast (it's on crystalkeep, can't remember the book) magebred (eberron again) fleshraker (monster manual 3) dinosaur. Natural bond lets your fleshraker gain the full benefits of your druid levels, instead of being at -4. Magebred and warbeast are templates you put on animals that make them BADASS.

It's - 3, IIRC, to the effective Druid Animal Companion level adjustment. Natural Bond is still valid though. Also Magebred can't be added on the Druid's animal. Warbeast is legal but a little skitchy. I'm currently running a Warbeast Fleshraker and I'd would love to have it be Magebred if I could.

I'll obligatory suggest Druid but ShneekeyTheLost's ideas are pretty good too.

magic9mushroom
2010-01-22, 09:58 AM
What has the teeth to bite back? Pun-Pun. Short of that a GM who's out to kill you will generally succeed.

Jayabalard
2010-01-22, 10:00 AM
Anythoughts?Switch GM's

You Godwin'd yourself with your title

Kobold-Bard
2010-01-22, 10:08 AM
...Option V: You asked for it, there's Gnome turning back now.

For a maximum-cheese effect, Whisper Gnome Illusionist going into Shadowcaster. Will shortly be able to cast any spell in the game, and if you make the Will save, it will actually do MORE damage to you than if you fail it.

Please explain/provide a link for this. Just what???

Gnaeus
2010-01-22, 10:41 AM
Please explain/provide a link for this. Just what???

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=201.0

The short reply is that it is a gnome illusionist who can use illusions to duplicate any conjuration/evocation spell. Opponents who make their will save still take a % of the spells effect. With good optimization you can make that % of damage taken on a failed save EXCEED 100%.

I am pretty sure he meant shadowcraft mage, not shadowcaster, which is a tier 3-4 sorcererish thing from ToB. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Eldariel
2010-01-22, 11:29 AM
Druid is, as said, an excellent choice. You can pull punches and still come out on the top here. You have a ton of options as far as focus goes and you'll still survive.

Cleric, if built for lasting, will probably be the greatest party enhancer of the bunch; gives you more of a fighting chance. Divine Metamagic [CDiv]: Persistent Spell [CArc]-using Cleric could Persist Mass Lesser Vigor on the whole party, giving everyone Fast Healing 1; helps out a lot. He could probably also persist another spell. And then combat spells on top of that along with decent melee ability and AC and you're set.

Wizard would offer a great improvement in terms of party efficiency. Grease, Glitterdust, Web, Stinking Cloud, etc. and various Force-effects offer great options for solving practically any low-CR encounter. Moreover, Conjuration-focus and Abrupt Jaunt means he'll be very tough to damage himself.


Overall, if you feel your party is dying too often, ensure you have the following:
- Someone with very high Spot & Listen, along with magic to enhance these as necessary (Blindsight/Listening Lorecall, See Invisibility, etc.; at least scrolled). Druid is perfect for this, with Spot & Listen in class and Wisdom-focus.
- In the same vein, someone who can deal with traps. Someone with Trapfinding and high Search & Disable Device.
- Someone with very high Knowledges in at least Nature, Arcane, Religion, The Planes, Local and Dungeoneering. Those 6 skills are used to identify creatures you're encountered, so having high Knowledges enables your characters to know their adversary and thus what weaknesses and especially dangerous special attacks you should be afraid of. Wizard is obviously perfect for this; Intelligence-focus and all Knowledges in class. But other classes have varying Knowledges so it's possible to cover all the areas between your party members without Wizards, of course.
- Someone capable of holding off the opposition. Whether it's a guy with Guisarme tripping attacking opponents or Wizard casting Web or Druid casting Entangle doesn't really matter; having means to split groups of melee opponents really, really helps, as does having the means to stop them.
- Some reliable source of healing. Wands of Cure Light Wounds with someone capable of using them, Healing Belts [MiC] and so on.
- Good enough defense (scouting, AC, saves, etc.) and offensive (melee & ranged damage, ways to screw people failing saves over, etc.) capabilities to deal with opposing casters.

If you've got all that covered, you should be fine. But yeah, telling how you're dying seems like an idea. Whether it's tactical or actual problem of character builds is pretty relevant.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2010-01-22, 11:54 AM
Dragonwrought Kobold Loredrake Sorcerer 5, two flaws, work the character's backstory so he gained one flaw at 5th level, Power Word Pain, Repeat Spell, Practical Metamagic: Repeat Spell. You can cast Power Word Pain more than once on the same creature, it will take 1d6 damage per round per casting with each duration rolled and tracked separately. Be sure to use the PH2 Sorcerer variant for faster metamagic. Get Swift Invisibility so you can cast and disappear in the same round if necessary. Other good spells to use include Grease, Benign Transposition, Web, Ray of Stupidity, Glitterdust, and Stinking Cloud. Be sure to get the Greater Draconic Rite of Passage (http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060420a), you can use your 6th level feat to get Draconic Reservoir.

Kobold-Bard
2010-01-22, 12:57 PM
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=201.0

The short reply is that it is a gnome illusionist who can use illusions to duplicate any conjuration/evocation spell. Opponents who make their will save still take a % of the spells effect. With good optimization you can make that % of damage taken on a failed save EXCEED 100%.

I am pretty sure he meant shadowcraft mage, not shadowcaster, which is a tier 3-4 sorcererish thing from ToB. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

I recall someone saying there was a way to cast Miracle at level 6 using this build. Any knowledge on that?

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-01-22, 03:33 PM
Solid tier 3 build. Druid 5 is absolutely better tho. 3rd level spells and a level equivalent pet beat 2 points of BaB. The reason people recommend MoMF for Ranger and not for Druid is that druid levels are provably better. The reason why I use Ranger rather than Druid is it has the Skillmonkey aspect he needs to survive. With 6+Int mod, and all your stealth and observation skills as class skills, this character can, at level 5, make a whisper gnome rogue green with envy at his ability to simply disappear. Without Magic. Spot, Search, Listen, Hide, and Move Silently are all skills to keep capped, with Survival another must-have. For bonus skills, gab things like Knowledge: Nature, Dungeoneering, and Subterranean. These will give bonuses based on terrain, and the ability to identify weaknesses in opponents you are likely to face.

At level 5, Wildshape Ranger has everything on Druid as far as survivability.


You are never going to hit exemplar in the campaign described. At level 5-6, there are much better builds than rogue 1/Samurai 4-5. Exemplar is the icing on the cake. Observe the combat vs a fairly optimized build in the ToS in my sig, he did that before I put in Exemplar. Rogue1/Samurai5 has an insane Intimidate mod. Hitting level 6 grants you Imperious Command, and suddenly you can lock opponents down with ease. It only gets better as you progress in levels.


Another decent build. Not, however, optimized for survivability. Wait... Glaivelock NOT optimized for survivability? Dude, where have you been? See the Unseen, and you find it almost impossible to sneak up on him. Dark One's Own Luck... grant your Charisma mod to one save of choice. Now you simply don't HAVE a weak save. Or, if you know you're gonna face a certain type of resistance necessary, you can stack the deck in your favor. Not to mention just how difficult to lock up you get when you get Fell Flight and Flee The Scene. Remember, Hellfire promotes full invocation progression as well. You don't loose out on anything.

Furthermore, if you choose to pick up Charm as an Invocation, then you take a one-level dip in Mindbender, then pick up Mindsight. Never be surprised ever. No, not even then. I'm about to make a Glaivelock for Test of Spite, and see how it fares against T2-T1 builds.


Heres a top of the line T1 build. I like it. My only concern is that it is squishy, and if you run out of abrupt jaunt or face AOEs you could be in trouble. Still, with good spell selection, tactics and luck it has a lot going for it. Mirror Image will take care of a lot of the 'squishy' factor. If absolutely necessary, Resist Energy can also take care of AoE's. Like you said, it's a T1 build.


As mentioned by Foryn, another excellent build which is not likely to survive long enough to reach its sweet spot.One level to hit the 'sweet spot'... once you hit Shadowcraft Mage, you win. It's that simple.

DMM Persist Cleric really doesn't hit stride until level 9. Having said that, he's an awesome buffer.

faceroll
2010-01-22, 03:40 PM
It's - 3, IIRC, to the effective Druid Animal Companion level adjustment. Natural Bond is still valid though. Also Magebred can't be added on the Druid's animal. Warbeast is legal but a little skitchy. I'm currently running a Warbeast Fleshraker and I'd would love to have it be Magebred if I could.

I'll obligatory suggest Druid but ShneekeyTheLost's ideas are pretty good too.

As long as you spend a year and succeed on the handle animal checks, I don't see why you can't make it a warbeast.

And why can't you make it magebred?


http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=201.0

The short reply is that it is a gnome illusionist who can use illusions to duplicate any conjuration/evocation spell. Opponents who make their will save still take a % of the spells effect. With good optimization you can make that % of damage taken on a failed save EXCEED 100%.

I am pretty sure he meant shadowcraft mage, not shadowcaster, which is a tier 3-4 sorcererish thing from ToB. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Shadowcraft mage is just another illusionist at level 5, though. It's a build that really gets powerful after level 10 or so.

ToM has shadow magic, but I think there's a prc from the underdark book with a shadowcasting class in it. 10 levels, every level makes your shadow spells 10% more real (alternating between conjuration and evocation).

mikej
2010-01-22, 04:38 PM
As long as you spend a year and succeed on the handle animal checks, I don't see why you can't make it a warbeast.

And why can't you make it magebred?



It was merely a assumption. DM's may feel it would make a already good class feature better.

The default rule is that Druid's Animal Companion are generic Animals and cannot have any kind of a template applied to them beforehand. Warbeast would pass since it's applied afterward via training. A Magebred Wolf is certainly not very typical of it's kind. It may however be typical of it's Magebred kind but that's up to interpretation. Even in the Eberron book series it said the Rangers and Druids can't have a Magebred companion. Only a Ranger/Druid from Breland could select ( Ghost Tiger & Bear IIRC ) one from a small list.

Gnaeus
2010-01-22, 04:43 PM
The reason why I use Ranger rather than Druid is it has the Skillmonkey aspect he needs to survive. With 6+Int mod, and all your stealth and observation skills as class skills, this character can, at level 5, make a whisper gnome rogue green with envy at his ability to simply disappear. Without Magic. Spot, Search, Listen, Hide, and Move Silently are all skills to keep capped, with Survival another must-have. For bonus skills, gab things like Knowledge: Nature, Dungeoneering, and Subterranean. These will give bonuses based on terrain, and the ability to identify weaknesses in opponents you are likely to face.

At level 5, Wildshape Ranger has everything on Druid as far as survivability.

No, a 5th level wildshape ranger who wants to contribute to the party in battle has to actually enter melee combat. Something at which he is rather pathetic. The druid has the buffs to enter combat if he chooses, but in a dangerous campaign can meaningfully contribute by blasting, battlefield control, save or dies, and downtime healing.

A 5th level Druid can spend his entire day flying around on a bat, while still being useful in battle. A 5th level wildshape ranger can either take a fight form, and be worse than the spellcasting druid + pet in combat, or a scouting/escape form once. Note that in an outdoor scenario the druid is actually better at scouting even without magic, as he can fly to scout, then return to the party and be able to speak to tell his comrades what he saw.

If the ranger plans to fight in human form, he will probably not have any more skill points than the druid (since he will need Str and Dex). If the ranger plans to fight in animal form as a medium animal he is a mediocre combattant who can't wildshape into a flyer to get away because he spent his WS becoming a bear.

Wildshape Ranger has good spot and listen. Druid has good spot and listen and a pet with blindsense that can spot invisible enemies sneaking up on you. Most of those other skills are similarly replicable with magic if necessary. Going from about 6 skill points per level to about 8 skill points per level is not worth giving up a meaningful pet and all the awesome that is tier 1 spellcasting.


Exemplar is the icing on the cake. Observe the combat vs a fairly optimized build in the ToS in my sig, he did that before I put in Exemplar. Rogue1/Samurai5 has an insane Intimidate mod. Hitting level 6 grants you Imperious Command, and suddenly you can lock opponents down with ease. It only gets better as you progress in levels.

And if it is fighting something that it can't intimidate it is a fighter with a really sub par 2 weapon fighting build.


Wait... Glaivelock NOT optimized for survivability? Dude, where have you been? See the Unseen, and you find it almost impossible to sneak up on him. Dark One's Own Luck... grant your Charisma mod to one save of choice. Now you simply don't HAVE a weak save. Or, if you know you're gonna face a certain type of resistance necessary, you can stack the deck in your favor.

So, Eldrich Glaive, See the Unseen, Dark One's Own Luck.

It is doing 2d6 damage per round with touch attacks, so less than a typical archer, or a 5th level caster with a reserve feat. It has decent saves (with dark ones luck active), bad AC, bad hp, no magical defenses to speak of (no flight, miss chances, invisibility, escape powers etc, it does get DR 1, which is something I guess).

It can see invisible things, which puts it a tiny step over the blindsense of the druid's pet, but that only grants see invisible + darkvision, and as spot and listen aren't on his class list, it is actually fairly easy to sneak up on him, just not invisibly.


Not to mention just how difficult to lock up you get when you get Fell Flight and Flee The Scene. Remember, Hellfire promotes full invocation progression as well. You don't loose out on anything.

Furthermore, if you choose to pick up Charm as an Invocation, then you take a one-level dip in Mindbender, then pick up Mindsight. Never be surprised ever. No, not even then. I'm about to make a Glaivelock for Test of Spite, and see how it fares against T2-T1 builds.

Regardless of how cool it may be in several levels when it picks up multiple additional invocations and a prestige class, it doesn't have any of that stuff at level 5.


One level to hit the 'sweet spot'... once you hit Shadowcraft Mage, you win. It's that simple.

DMM Persist Cleric really doesn't hit stride until level 9. Having said that, he's an awesome buffer.

All a level 1 SCM gets is a 20% concealment miss chance. Thats nice, but he has had that (with Blur) since level 3. There is a level 1 ToB stance that will give the same power permanently to anyone who moves 10 per round. SCM doesn't become uber until level 3, when it gets shadow illusion. As a side note, you need a level 4 shadow spell to enter SCM, so you would need an early entry trick to hit godlike awesomeness even by level 8. Normal entry doesn't give Shadow illusion until 10.

Don't get me wrong Shneekey. All of these are solid builds at their respective levels. None of them are below tier 3, they are all playable in a typical party, and really strong when they hit their stride. But at level 5-6 in a game where TPK is a constant risk we can do better.

faceroll
2010-01-22, 04:53 PM
If you want hide on your druid class list, pick up an initiate feat from ECS. One of them gives you bluff, hide, and something else, as well as some spells at earlier than usual levels.

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-01-22, 05:49 PM
No, a 5th level wildshape ranger who wants to contribute to the party in battle has to actually enter melee combat. Something at which he is rather pathetic. The druid has the buffs to enter combat if he chooses, but in a dangerous campaign can meaningfully contribute by blasting, battlefield control, save or dies, and downtime healing. Guess what, 5th level Ranger also has a small selection of spells. He can also Battlefield Control with Entangle, just like the Druid. Blasting has always been inefficient, but particularly so for the druid. A 5th level druid has no Save or Die spells yet. And a Wildshape Ranger has the same selection as a Druid has for shapes at 5th level.

Meanwhile, he also has the ambush-detection skillset, as well as the ambush-laying skillset. That is 'in addition to', not 'instead of'.


A 5th level Druid can spend his entire day flying around on a bat, while still being useful in battle. A 5th level wildshape ranger can either take a fight form, and be worse than the spellcasting druid + pet in combat, or a scouting/escape form once. Note that in an outdoor scenario the druid is actually better at scouting even without magic, as he can fly to scout, then return to the party and be able to speak to tell his comrades what he saw. Until next level, when the Ranger starts taking Master of Many Forms, in which case, his ability to contribute vastly increases.

As it is, he can still turn into a Fleshraker, which is pretty damn nasty in it's own right. And again, he's got the *SAME* Wildshape options as a Druid at 5th level, with the SAME number of times per day, and the SAME duration of a Druid at 5th level. Try again. Wildshape Range = Druid for turning into things at 5th level. When he goes into MoMF... well, things get even more broken even more quickly.


If the ranger plans to fight in human form, he will probably not have any more skill points than the druid (since he will need Str and Dex). If the ranger plans to fight in animal form as a medium animal he is a mediocre combattant who can't wildshape into a flyer to get away because he spent his WS becoming a bear. Again, Druid has the same problem with only being able to WS once a day, and Fleshraker is a Medium animal. I'd hardly call that 'mediocre'. Try again.


Wildshape Ranger has good spot and listen. Druid has good spot and listen and a pet with blindsense that can spot invisible enemies sneaking up on you. Most of those other skills are similarly replicable with magic if necessary. Going from about 6 skill points per level to about 8 skill points per level is not worth giving up a meaningful pet and all the awesome that is tier 1 spellcasting. Ranger can have the same pet a Druid has at 5th level, if he's willing to blow a feat on it. So again, Ranger has everything Druid has. And more.

And druid spellcasting is not Tier 1 casting. It's fairly sub-par casting, and Rangers get most of the handy ones anyways. It's a Tier 1 class because it can do so while being a huge damn bear.


And if it is fighting something that it can't intimidate it is a fighter with a really sub par 2 weapon fighting build. With the ability to dish out decent damage output anyways with Flanking, due to sneak attack and Craven. But yes, this is the weakest of the options.


So, Eldrich Glaive, See the Unseen, Dark One's Own Luck.

It is doing 2d6 damage per round with touch attacks, so less than a typical archer, or a 5th level caster with a reserve feat. It has decent saves (with dark ones luck active), bad AC, bad hp, no magical defenses to speak of (no flight, miss chances, invisibility, escape powers etc, it does get DR 1, which is something I guess). Who said anything about bad AC? Can wear light armor and not have any ACF problems. Mithral Chain Shirt is easily affordable by that level, and his only stat he really needs is Dex and Cha, the rest can be dumped with impunity. Invisibility comes next level, miss chances are done with toys (Lesser Cloak of Displacement), escape powers also come in a few levels with Flee The Scene. Flight also comes with Lesser Invocations.

Try again.


It can see invisible things, which puts it a tiny step over the blindsense of the druid's pet, but that only grants see invisible + darkvision, and as spot and listen aren't on his class list, it is actually fairly easy to sneak up on him, just not invisibly. Cross Class Skills + Spot = fairly decent chance anyways.


Regardless of how cool it may be in several levels when it picks up multiple additional invocations and a prestige class, it doesn't have any of that stuff at level 5. Even without that stuff, it is still surprisingly survivable, with both melee and ranged consistent damage output, AC as high as the Main Tank's to survive said combat, and only grows in power from there.


All a level 1 SCM gets is a 20% concealment miss chance. Thats nice, but he has had that (with Blur) since level 3. There is a level 1 ToB stance that will give the same power permanently to anyone who moves 10 per round. SCM doesn't become uber until level 3, when it gets shadow illusion. As a side note, you need a level 4 shadow spell to enter SCM, so you would need an early entry trick to hit godlike awesomeness even by level 8. Normal entry doesn't give Shadow illusion until 10.

Don't get me wrong Shneekey. All of these are solid builds at their respective levels. None of them are below tier 3, they are all playable in a typical party, and really strong when they hit their stride. But at level 5-6 in a game where TPK is a constant risk we can do better.

I think the Wildshape Ranger and the Glaivelock are both solid options, as is the Batman build. The Intimation build, sure, he needs to grow a bit before he hits his stride. The gnome hits it far sooner, and is far more broken when he does it. And let's face it, if you're getting eaten as a Whisper Gnome Illusionist... you're doing something wrong. Invisibility, Mirror Image, and Minor Image all provide encounter-winning defenses.

faceroll
2010-01-22, 05:59 PM
Invisibility, mirror image, and minor image all provide hide in the corner and let your allies handle it defenses. They aren't going to win anything. You're basically playing a monk. Sure, you're hard to kill, but you aren't contributing much.

[edit]
That's not to say that you can't be using solid fog and haste and whatever, but if you want to go real ultimate power, go three levels incantatrix. Your power comes online at level 8, instead of having to wait until levels 10+.

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-01-22, 06:04 PM
Invisibility, mirror image, and minor image all provide hide in the corner and let your allies handle it defenses. They aren't going to win anything. You're basically playing a monk. Sure, you're hard to kill, but you aren't contributing much.

Invisibility can be an exceedingly offensive spell if you have a Rogue in the party, to let him SA opponents into oblivion.

Minor Image can be completely devistating, if used properly. It is only limited by your imagination. Blur can be dropped onto the Party Tank to give him a Miss Chance, and Concealment, which completely negates precision-based damage from opponents.

And there's nothing that says he can't just ban Evoc and Enchantment, which gives him every bit of utility a more traditional Conjuration-based Batman Wizard has...

Incantatrix is powerful, no question. But being able to duplicate every spell in the game, ever, yes even that one, is more broken.

faceroll
2010-01-22, 06:11 PM
Invisibility can be an exceedingly offensive spell if you have a Rogue in the party, to let him SA opponents into oblivion.

Greater invisibility is a 4th level spell. Regular invisibility gives you 1 sneak attack.


Minor Image can be completely devistating, if used properly. It is only limited by your imagination.

And your DM.


Blur can be dropped onto the Party Tank to give him a Miss Chance, and Concealment, which completely negates precision-based damage from opponents.

Sure, that's helpful, but it's pretty standard batman stuff.


And there's nothing that says he can't just ban Evoc and Enchantment, which gives him every bit of utility a more traditional Conjuration-based Batman Wizard has...

Incantatrix is powerful, no question. But being able to duplicate every spell in the game, ever, yes even that one, is more broken.

But in this case you are sacrificing a lot of immediate power for power in the long run. You need to gain 12 levels before you're casting shadow miracles. Alternatively, in two levels you're persisting wraithstrike on the rogue, mass less vigor on everyone, etc etc.

wizard5/incant10 is just as powerful as killer gnome 15, the only difference is that the 8th level incantatrix is awesomesauce and the killer gnome is just an illusionist with wasted skill points.

Pharaoh's Fist
2010-01-22, 06:12 PM
Blur lets Rogues sneak attack because it grants them concealment.

It also technically lets them hide... because it grants them concealment.

faceroll
2010-01-22, 06:13 PM
Blur lets Rogues sneak attack because it grants them concealment.

It also technically lets them hide... because it grants them concealment.

Blur isn't some sort of super magical killer gnome only spell, though.

Alcopop
2010-01-22, 06:24 PM
Thanks for the suggestions guys! I talked to one of the other players and he'll be going druid. i'm still undecided with what I'll do but I have a lot to work with here.

Okay, so as requested, examples;

Firstly you have to understand that me and my group don't really expect the gm to go all out unless the stakes are high, prehaps this is spoilt complacency but its how it is.

Aswell, the only people in the group who really can really optimize are me, one friend, and the gm in question, and me and that friend usually put roleplay concepts before builds.

So Example 1:

3rd level party we had a
Utility Sorc (Me, spellscale to cover healing)
Dwavern Fighter, mountain plate and ac focused. so pretty much more of a hinderance then a help, funny though.
"Generic" Arcane Caster with Sneak (Unearthed arcana, decent blaster)
and a Basic Rogue being run by a new player.

So certinly not an optimized party.

After escaping a destoryed city we decided to camp for the night. We set up watch, everyone but the Sorc having a turn, the rogue on for the longest. It was a dark night and the rogue didn't see them coming a (+12 hide helped with that) 4 Grells jumped the camp, the rogue managed to scream before getting grappled (+20) and making 10 saves vs paralysis (DC 14). The casters got up and shortly there after found themselves being grappled (+20). The grells stared to drag there pray away and the fighter couldn't keep up.

We won that fight in the end, but only because the combat was given to us. the grells started to act really stupidly when the GM realized that we were beaten after the first two rounds.

Surfice to say, it wasn't fun. Now not all the combats are this bad, but a fair number are and it either ends with either us running, the GM deus ex machining it or with us dying horrible deaths.

That party met there ends the session after while fighting two magic immune sneak immune max HP chain golems.


So yeah, I hope the gives you an idea of what we're up against.

Aldizog
2010-01-22, 06:45 PM
We won that fight in the end, but only because the combat was given to us. the grells started to act really stupidly when the GM realized that we were beaten after the first two rounds.

As a DM, it can be very hard to make fights fun without dumbing down the monsters considerably. If the monsters act at all like the PCs -- using ambushes, concentrating all attacks on one opponent at a time, running away if things go badly -- then it is quite possible for at-CR encounters to kill a PC.

This is not "brilliant tactics," either. Animals know about ambushes, concentrating attacks, and running away if hurt. Grells are just as smart as humans and can easily develop some tactics better than that. They have 10 attacks with reach, paralysis, the lightning lance, a fair number of immunities, and can fly with perfect maneuverability. What would PCs do with those abilities? Some pretty clever tricks, I'm sure.

As a DM, you often feel pressure to have the monsters not do what they can do and would want to do. I know many times I've had monsters pair off with PCs rather than all gang up on one PC (especially an offense-heavy low-AC one like a raging barbarian), because in the latter case it feels like you're picking on that player. So... yeah, it's just part of the game. DMs do have to dumb down monsters, because if the monsters used good tactics then even equal-CR encounters would get a fair number of PCs killed. I'm sure your DM isn't thrilled about it either.

Tokiko Mima
2010-01-22, 06:57 PM
At ECL 5 you could try something with completely non-standard tactics, like Pixie Warlock 1 with Summon Swarm as your invocation. Now, remember that your improved invisibility is useless against grell (They have 60' blindsight, and are sightless anyway) but your permanent image 1/day SLA will fool them. Be sure and use entangle as well as using your faster flight speed to keep them at a distance.

You should hit the grell about 75% of the time or better with ranged touch attacks, but you won't be doing much damage. Mostly, you want a few of them to chase you around unsuccessfully as you 'death of a thousand paper cuts' at them with Eldritch Blast. If they completely ignore you and go after your party members, then you summon swarm repeatedly and let them deal with that mess every round until they stop ignoring you.

You might also want to make your first feat Supernatural Transformation (Eldritch Blast) so you can take on golems without them being immune to your Eldritch Blast.

If you have access to a magic items, anklets of translocation are very cheap, and are a nice low level solution to being grappled. Just use a swift action to teleport 10' away, and then use your new freedom to take action however you think is best.

Gnaeus
2010-01-22, 07:00 PM
Guess what, 5th level Ranger also has a small selection of spells. He can also Battlefield Control with Entangle, just like the Druid. Blasting has always been inefficient, but particularly so for the druid. A 5th level druid has no Save or Die spells yet.

Ranger has 1 first level spell per day if he has a 12+ wis. Druid has more and higher level battlefield control (like SNA 3). Blasting IS inefficient, but if it is the path he chooses he can still deal more ranged damage than the ranger. No Save or Die spells, but save or suck spells, like contagion or icelance, or no save just suck spells like blinding spittle. Or buff spells for the party like snakes swiftness or barkskin.


, he also has the ambush-detection skillset, as well as the ambush-laying skillset. That is 'in addition to', not 'instead of'.

So the ranger has hide and move silently as the 2 extra skill points per level he gets over the druid (total of 16 skill points, since MoMF has the same 4+int as the druid gets). Druid can actually hide better than the ranger if he wants, with Camoflage or Spiderskin. With just 2 of the Primal spells active the druid gets 20 points in skill point bonuses lasting all day. In any event, if you think Hide and Move Silently beat 8 extra spells per day including 3rd level spells and the ability to hit 9th level spells, you are way off. The druid can always get silent moves enchanted onto his wild armor later. You don't trade class features (like full spellcasting) for abilities you can buy inexpensively.



Until next level, when the Ranger starts taking Master of Many Forms, in which case, his ability to contribute vastly increases.

Yeah. He can become a fleshraker or a humanoid. The druid can become a fleshraker with Venomfire and Heart of Water and Barkskin. Wanna know which is better? It takes several levels for MoMf to give really great forms. The druid can beat them by being a slightly inferior form, + powerful casting. To give one example, a druid can wildshape into forms with extraordinary abilities at level 7 with Enhance wild shape (like the 120 blindsight of a desmodu bat. Hows that for a scouting form?). MoMf won't get that ability until 5 levels later. MoMf might be said to have a tiny edge at level 15-16 with evershifting form (although the druid has 8th level spells by this point, so I really doubt it) but the druid is clearly better again by the time he gets shapeshift at 17.



As it is, he can still turn into a Fleshraker, which is pretty damn nasty in it's own right. And again, he's got the *SAME* Wildshape options as a Druid at 5th level, with the SAME number of times per day, and the SAME duration of a Druid at 5th level. Try again. Wildshape Range = Druid for turning into things at 5th level. When he goes into MoMF... well, things get even more broken even more quickly.

Again, Druid has the same problem with only being able to WS once a day, and Fleshraker is a Medium animal. I'd hardly call that 'mediocre'. Try again.

The druid isn't really planning to melee in wildshape at level 5. It is his least effective option. The druid can save his wildshape for a last ditch escape, and still be useful during the day. Only when he has natural spell is it worth it to give up his humanity (gnomanity?) through his waking hours.


Ranger can have the same pet a Druid has at 5th level, if he's willing to blow a feat on it. So again, Ranger has everything Druid has. And more.

But the druid's pet has +6 dex, +2 con, +3 Natural armor and weapon finesse (bite of the wererat). It deals D6+level fire damage with its natural attack (produce flame), and it either has big bonuses to attack and damage (Greater magic Fang + venomfire) or it delivers save or suck spells like contagion or poison. You blew a feat on natural bond, I blew a feat on companion spellbond, so the druid is 30 feet away in the back of the party when his pet is doing this stuff. By 7th level, when MoMF has the same crummy pet and just got large size, the druid and his pet can stomp enemies with +4 strength, +6 con, +8 NA, free Blind Fight. + Heart of Earth and Heart of Water, + Venomfire + Primal Hunter + Primal Instinct. And all of that except the Bite of the Wereboar lasts for hours, so he isn't even spending combat actions to cast it. What form are you going to find that beats that?

If the ranger actually has the same pet as the druid at level 5 (a dire bat for a flying mount), how in hades is he doing any damage to the enemy? He has no ranged abilities to speak of, and both are probably using str and dex as their dump stats.


And druid spellcasting is not Tier 1 casting. It's fairly sub-par casting, and Rangers get most of the handy ones anyways. It's a Tier 1 class because it can do so while being a huge damn bear.

False. Check a thread on the shapeshift druids. A druid without his pet and with a radically nerfed WS still lives at the bottom of tier 1. A spontaneous druid with no WS or pet (Spirit Shaman) is tier 2. The spells listed above are just some of his options. He has literally hundreds of spells at his disposal by level 5.

I'll get to the non ranger options separately.

Gnaeus
2010-01-23, 09:16 AM
With the ability to dish out decent damage output anyways with Flanking, due to sneak attack and Craven. But yes, this is the weakest of the options.

So we agree that it is a decent build for a samurai. We agree that it hasn't hit its stride yet. We agree that it is the weakest of the options. Enough said.


Who said anything about bad AC? Can wear light armor and not have any ACF problems. Mithral Chain Shirt is easily affordable by that level, and his only stat he really needs is Dex and Cha, the rest can be dumped with impunity. Invisibility comes next level, miss chances are done with toys (Lesser Cloak of Displacement), escape powers also come in a few levels with Flee The Scene. Flight also comes with Lesser Invocations.

Try again.

So he has light armor and only needs Dex and Cha (and Con).

Beguiler has the same light armor, only needs Dex, Int and Con, same HP. Beguiler has defense spells (blur, invisibility, mirror image) and escape spells (expeditious retreat). Beguiler has out of combat utility (skillmonkey) and better stuff to do in combat than spam 2d6 eldrich blast (glitterdust, etc).

Cleric has plate mail, so same ac even if warlock has high dex. Cleric also has good saves and better hp. A defensive cleric (luck and travel domains, for a save reroll and freedom of movement) has better defenses unbuffed. A cleric can cast defensive spells to raise his ac (shield of faith, magic vestments etc) and can carry a shield. Cleric has escape spells or powers (Travel devotion). Cleric has out of combat utility (healing) and better stuff to do in combat than spam 2d6 eldrich blast (tons of options).

Rogue has the same light armor, high Dex, same HP. Rogue isn't what I would call a high defense character, but he has evasion, and uncanny dodge so his dex is always adding to his AC. Rogue has out of combat utility (skillmonkey) and better stuff to do in combat than spam 2d6 eldrich blast (sneak attack +3d6).

Batman, as previously pointed out, has the same AC (Mage armor = chain shirt, only needs Int, Dex and Con) but can buff his HP and AC way higher than the warlock, or use other defenses. Out of combat utility and better stuff in combat etc...


Cross Class Skills + Spot = fairly decent chance anyways.

So he has the same chance to detect non invisible sneakers as any other 2+int class without listen or spot on their class list and with both wisdom and int as dump stats. True enough, but hardly worth bragging about.


Even without that stuff, it is still surprisingly survivable, with both melee and ranged consistent damage output, AC as high as the Main Tank's to survive said combat, and only grows in power from there.

2d6 eldrich blast (average 7 damage if you hit your touch attack) is hardly impressive at level 5. Most builds that do damage will consistently equal or beat that (like, a caster with a reserve feat is probably a better blaster), and non damage builds will have better stuff to do (buffs, saves, battlefield control, etc). Its defenses are weaker than multiple more effective classes. I agree that it grows in power from there, and it grows at a reasonable rate (faster than a rogue for example, and much faster than melee, but not as fast as a true caster)



I think the Wildshape Ranger and the Glaivelock are both solid options

Solid, yes. Best, no.


as is the Batman build.

You don't need to defend the Batman, he is made of win. Still a little squishy if caught unbuffed, but overall excellent if played well.


The gnome hits it far sooner, and is far more broken when he does it. And let's face it, if you're getting eaten as a Whisper Gnome Illusionist... you're doing something wrong. Invisibility, Mirror Image, and Minor Image all provide encounter-winning defenses.

As I pointed out before, it is level 10 before he really gets shadowcraft cheese. At that point, yes, he is a vastly powerful Tier 1 caster with tons of broken options. At level 5 he still takes a back seat to a good conjurer or transmuter, who combine a touch of his defenses with lots of encounter winning options (defenses don't win encounters, as someone else pointed out).

As a side note, I prefer beguiler for my killer gnomes, as I like the skillmonkey and better AC and HP and actual class features, but illusionist gets there faster and has more flexibility in many ways (like level 3 spells at 5th level), so I'm not going to say beguiler is better, just that I prefer it.

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-01-23, 12:50 PM
I also think that, in addition to build help, your party needs a lot of help with Tactics.

A level 5 party was ambushed at night. That's the start of a really bad joke. No party of 5th level and higher should ever be ambushed while sleeping, because of one little spell:

Rope Trick.

By mid-level (9-10), every character should have a Necklace of Adaptation and Ring of Sustenance for a very similar reason. Ignoring gas-based effects, underwater breathing, and even if you are ambushed... you're not ambushed. But that's for the future.

Seriously, there's no reason why you can't use Rope Trick to camp in, which will prevent the entire TPK situation you were in last time, irregardless of any of the character builds.

So why don't you start telling us about what you've been running up against, and we'll tell you how to modify your tactics to be able to handle it.