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AtwasAwamps
2010-01-21, 10:37 AM
I just feel like venting about an irritating situation that has cropped up at my table and see if anyone has some worthwhile advice about dealing with the potential for severe contention at a gaming table within a gaming group.

Right now, I’m running a game for my group that has six players. One of them hasn’t really been able to show up, but the five who do regularly are a really great group and make for a solid set-up when it comes to roleplaying, teamwork, etc. They’re fun! However, a couple things are changing regarding group schedules and who’s running what game and the result is that I have been asked to consider letting a certain new player into my game.

Let’s call said new player D. Now, to start with, I’m going to note that I am one of the newest members of this group and D is one of the oldest. He has basically been there since the beginning and he is a good friend to all of the rest of the crew, barring myself since I haven’t been around that long. He has been running the 4.0 game we play (my game is 3.5) and…he is…well, I’ll flat out say it. He’s not a fun DM to play with. Amongst the wonderful things he’s done as of late is to tell me I can’t bluff more than once a combat (and I don’t mean to use it as a feint type trick, but I can’t try to verbally trick my opponent or mislead them in a clever way) and basically tell us that we can’t use skills more than once an encounter, then accuse us of not thinking out of the box…not telling a player what their character sees as a battlefield changes (and not as in “you need to roll a spot check” but as in “There is half a dragon’s butt hanging outside of a sphere of magical darkness.” Apparently, because she didn’t ask what she could see, she didn’t see the dragon?) There’s a bit of a laundry list on these things and it’s not pretty, not to mention the fact that he gets visibly pissed off if we do well in combat or come up with a clever way to handle a situation.

Now, despite being his friend, there isn’t a single person who actually enjoys playing in D’s games. Like, not even a little bit. Arguments have broken out…loud and vicious ones…over the way he runs his game. Now, due to schedule changes and such, he is taking a break from running his game, but is hoping to be included in other people’s games. Which is why I’ve been asked (not by him just yet, but by his oldest friend in the group) if I’d be willing to let him play in my game. I said I’d think about it and took a bit of time to talk to the other players about D’s playstyle. What I have found out:

He is the type of player who will try to set up things like Venerable Dragonwrought Loredrake or the 1d2 crusader and slip them past a DM.

He is the type of player who will consistently whine about loot and magic items and start demanding the ability to buy whatever he wants whenever he wants.

He always plays chaotic neutral and never plays “nice” with the party.

He is a min/maxer (which is not really a problem for me).

The above, coupled with the fact that we don’t get along with one another at all, makes for a situation where I absolutely don’t want him in my game. And now I am in the position of telling some of his best friends that. They will understand, I’m sure…they’re the ones who told me all of the above…but the result of this will be that I won’t get to run my game as much and if/when I do, it will tend to be missing one of my favorite players and the guy I have started to get alone with best in the group. So essentially, because this guy wants to play that nobody else appears to actually enjoy playing with, I’m probably not going to be able to run a game I worked very hard on more than once a month and when I do run it, I’ll be missing a few of my friends/players every time.

There’s really NOT a lot I can do about this. I can let him play and risk an explosion of personality clashing, because I have a very bad temper when pushed and he’s already pushed me more than once (and I really don’t like losing my temper). Or I can not let him play and watch as my game quietly gets shoved into the background. So be it. I just wanted to vent for a bit.

drengnikrafe
2010-01-21, 10:46 AM
Have you ever considered discussing things on equal footing? It sounds like most of the time when "discussions" break out, they're in the middle of the game, right after somebody got screwed out of using their abilities. I mean... have you ever had a sit-down discussion with him, away from any gaming things?
Or, have you ever asked him why he does these things? Most people don't do things like that without a reason, and if his reason is nothing more than "because I said so", or "to feel powerful" or something else like that, there are a lot better ways to go about feeling powerful and the DM should always be reasonably fair.

As for letting him in... Yes, it could be a very bad idea. However, I had an idea for what to do about his super-powergaming. Have him make 3 or 4 different builds, then post them all here, and ask us playgrounders to look for breaks, and how to fix them. Warn him in advance that there are reprocussions to actions in your world, and then when he does chaotic stupid things, punish his character in-game. If he gets really awful, give him a final warning, and then the next time he attacks your game, kick him out. Make sure neither of you are angry when you kick him out, and explain to him very clearly that he's just not right for your campaign world.

I feel like if you simply deny him access to your game, the problems will only get worse.

AtwasAwamps
2010-01-21, 10:56 AM
Have you ever considered discussing things on equal footing? It sounds like most of the time when "discussions" break out, they're in the middle of the game, right after somebody got screwed out of using their abilities. I mean... have you ever had a sit-down discussion with him, away from any gaming things?

Or, have you ever asked him why he does these things? Most people don't do things like that without a reason, and if his reason is nothing more than "because I said so", or "to feel powerful" or something else like that, there are a lot better ways to go about feeling powerful and the DM should always be reasonably fair.

I haven't, but other members of the group have. And...well, those discussions don't go well, from what I've been told of them. Apparently, he adamantly refuses to budge, stating that he’s “Playing the NPCs right” and that we should be more strategic (because when his flying invisible teleporting monster that goes first on initiative negates a large chunk of our melee oriented party, we should have noticed that he allowed a single player to hold their actions into the next round and act as it went, instead of him telling us that he’s allowing a rule breach in this instance). He gets very heated when anyone criticizes his playstyle and often repeats the phrase “I’m just tryin’ to tell my story!” I actually enjoy brutal combat situations and being forced to strategize…but sometimes it goes too far.



As for letting him in... Yes, it could be a very bad idea. However, I had an idea for what to do about his super-powergaming. Have him make 3 or 4 different builds, then post them all here, and ask us playgrounders to look for breaks, and how to fix them. Warn him in advance that there are reprocussions to actions in your world, and then when he does chaotic stupid things, punish his character in-game. If he gets really awful, give him a final warning, and then the next time he attacks your game, kick him out. Make sure neither of you are angry when you kick him out, and explain to him very clearly that he's just not right for your campaign world.

I feel like if you simply deny him access to your game, the problems will only get worse.

The problem with this is that I am extremely reluctant to crush him like that in front of his friends, whether or not I like him, and I know that if I choose to do that, he will bear a grudge and me kicking him out of a game will affect the way he reacts to me in other games and could result in a general souring of moods/attitudes around the table. It’s kind of a damned if I do/damned if I don’t situation right now.

Sipex
2010-01-21, 11:05 AM
Damned if you do might result in improvements though.

Damned if you don't will either stay where you are, being miserable with some things or in the end cause you to explode and seem like the bad guy.

Take things maturely and slow, tell him you'll want to approve any and all builds he does and if he has issues with something you're doing you're more than happy to discuss it outside the game.

AtwasAwamps
2010-01-21, 11:07 AM
Damned if you do might result in improvements though.

Damned if you don't will either stay where you are, being miserable with some things or in the end cause you to explode and seem like the bad guy.

Take things maturely and slow, tell him you'll want to approve any and all builds he does and if he has issues with something you're doing you're more than happy to discuss it outside the game.

Wait, which one is if you do and if you don't in this?

Also, I don't really know if improvement would be forthcoming. If he won't change his ways when he's irritating people he's known for 20 years, he probably won't change it for someone he's only known for five months. But yeah. I'm still weighing my optiosn right now.

Sipex
2010-01-21, 11:08 AM
Damned if you do = talking to him about it

Vizzerdrix
2010-01-21, 11:16 AM
Right now, I’m running a game for my group that has six players.

Now, despite being his friend, there isn’t a single person who actually enjoys playing in D’s games.

He is the type of player who will try to set up things like Venerable Dragonwrought Loredrake or the 1d2 crusader and slip them past a DM.

He always plays chaotic neutral and never plays “nice” with the party.

The above, coupled with the fact that we don’t get along with one another at all,

I absolutely don’t want him in my game. And now I am in the position of telling some of his best friends that. They will understand, I’m sure…they’re the ones who told me all of the above…but the result of this will be that I won’t get to run my game as much and if/when I do, it will tend to be missing one of my favorite players and the guy I have started to get alone with best in the group. So essentially, because this guy wants to play that nobody else appears to actually enjoy playing with, I’m probably not going to be able to run a game

There’s really NOT a lot I can do about this. I can let him play and risk an explosion of personality clashing, because I have a very bad temper when pushed and he’s already pushed me more than once (and I really don’t like losing my temper). Or I can not let him play and watch as my game quietly gets shoved into the background. So be it. I just wanted to vent for a bit.

So this isn't a hard choice to make. Tell him your at the maximum amount of players you can handle as a DM but the next time you start a campaign you'll make sure to save a spot at the table. The next time you start a game up, if you choose to include him, set down the ground rules. Let him know broken combos get hit with a Death-No save, complaining about loot won't make more show up, he must play nice with the group (so no chaotic Douche' baggery) and arguing with the DM during the game will get him ejected (issues should be addressed after the game).

Cyrion
2010-01-21, 11:16 AM
Really, it doesn't sound like he'd be a productive member of the gaming group, friends with the rest or not, so I'd be likely to work to exclude him. However, I'd try to be somewhat nice about it- tell him that based on the style of the campaign and the other characters who have been created, you don't think this is something he'd enjoy. That gives you/him a graceful way to say no, or if he wants to try anyway, you've got an excellent opportunity to veto a broken build or say "This is how it's going to work..." If he still wants to play, you've established the rules early and can remind him more easily later if you have to. It also allows him to not be in the game without anyone's feelings being hurt.

AtwasAwamps
2010-01-21, 11:28 AM
It’s not really a hard choice to make at all and I know nobody will be too upset with me about it, it’s just that it will result in my game being shunted into the background so that he will have the opportunity to play and peace will be kept. Ah well. C’est la vie, ya know? I’d rather have it shunted into the background then end in a shouting match.

Sipex
2010-01-21, 11:31 AM
If you don't mind me asking (and TLDR won't be an issue here), why is your game not getting shunted into the background highly dependant on him playing it?

AtwasAwamps
2010-01-21, 11:59 AM
If you don't mind me asking (and TLDR won't be an issue here), why is your game not getting shunted into the background highly dependant on him playing it?

Oh. Because the others, being friends with him and willing to tolerate him, will include/have already included him in their games. Thus in the interest of general peace, we will most likely play a game besides mine for the majority of the time due to major participation. My game will become the “late night” game, which will probably cost me 1-2 of my current players who cannot make it then.

valadil
2010-01-21, 12:08 PM
Why not let him play on probation? He can join the game and his friends will be happy but if he slips up once he's out. And if he balks at the suggestion of this stipulation you'll know he probably wouldn't have behaved himself at your table anyway.

Tyndmyr
2010-01-21, 12:13 PM
Looks like he's trying to win D&D or something.

Just state before the game that you want to review everyones sheet in advance for game prep and to make sure everything is legal, and the chars will all fit together.

Post any chars you suspect of being broken on here. We'll find the holes, guaranteed, and various people will suggest possible fixes.

As for his chaotic neutral tendancies...ensure you play in a game world where such tendancies are duly punished. A world with decent communication and enforcement of laws is one such world.

Enforce a rule that new characters are made 1 level lower. Thus, if he dies due to acting crazy, it hits him where it hurts...right in his munchkiny power level.

dsmiles
2010-01-21, 12:31 PM
The problem with this is that I am extremely reluctant to crush him like that in front of his friends, whether or not I like him, and I know that if I choose to do that, he will bear a grudge and me kicking him out of a game will affect the way he reacts to me in other games and could result in a general souring of moods/attitudes around the table. It’s kind of a damned if I do/damned if I don’t situation right now.

It's not "crushing" him, it's just enforcing the general social contract that you have with your current group. Every group has it's social norms and rules, if he can't stay within them, then he shouldn't be at the table with the rest of you. People like that really irritate me. :smallfurious:

Example:

One of the social norms/rules at my tables is no munchkin-ing/breaking the game. As the DM, I have the right to review all characters and tell the players to revise them as I see fit. If the character is too powerful for the campaign world, I will beat it mercilessly with the Bat of Nerfing +10. If I feel the character is too weak to survive in the campaign world, I feel free to recommend changes (I won't force a character to survive, but I will force a character to not break my campaign world).
It's a part of belonging to a social group. If you had a pickup game of touch football, and somebody constantly tackles, wouldn't you give him/her a warning? If they kept it up, wouldn't you throw them out?

And that's all I have to say about that...:smallwink:

DabblerWizard
2010-01-21, 01:09 PM
I absolutely don’t want him in my game.

This line from the OP stood out the most.

AtwasAwamps, if your convictions are as strong as you stated them, then it seems obvious that this guy shouldn't be invited to your game. You wouldn't enjoy yourself, your players wouldn't enjoy themselves. Therefore, do everyone a favor and don't invite him.

There might be a positive outcome to this situation. Your fellow players might realize that they really enjoy not having this negative player at a game.

This might lead them to want to play your game more often, because someone in the group has finally taken a stance against Mr. Meany Face.

Alternately, in a more radical scenario, they might decide to not invite this player to their games.

Friendship is important, but so is being able to have fun with those friends. If you show these guys, that your game is an outlet for them, a chance to play d&d without a negative force around, then you might find yourself DMing a lot more.

Evard
2010-01-21, 03:31 PM
Let him join but make random characters for the people to play using core only.

Make him a Monk or Paladin and explain that if he goes against his alignment then the Monks or the Church will hunt him down. Do this by making everyone 2 character sheets and then saying you rolled for who got what.. (to be nice you could take the fixed versions of those classes or not *shrug*). All you will do is choose their starting equipment, class, and gold and they can take the character sheet and go from there.

This makes him at least lawful and if he takes paladin he has really no choice to play nice (as long as everyone else is good)