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Lysander
2010-01-21, 10:47 AM
Knock is often held up as an example of rogues losing their purpose. Why bother with open lock checks when you can just cast Knock on the door right?

There's two big reasons:

1. Wizards have a limited number of spells. This is an obvious drawback. You're wasting limited magical power on opening a door. Knock isn't a cantrip, it's a 2nd level spell which could accomplish a lot of things Open Lock can't do. Thieves' Tools can be used all day on dozens of doors and chests. Knock handles one.

2. Knock itself is pretty limited. Check out this line from the spell:


Each spell can undo as many as two means of preventing egress.

That's right. A door with three locks can't be opened by knock. It'd unlock two of them but no more. This means that the average elderly person's front door wouldn't be opened by a Knock spell.

drengnikrafe
2010-01-21, 10:52 AM
A scroll of knock would cost... what... 150 gp? Sure, you have a limited number of spell slots, but WBL gives you plenty of money at moderate and higher levels.

However, if you are playing in a campaign where there are lots of locks and traps, you're right, a rogue specialized in picking locks will be extremely useful. How many DMs send that many locks at players, though?

I feel like your basis is a really specific type of campaign, as opposed to one where random locks show up.

Narazil
2010-01-21, 10:52 AM
You're right. But that's not the point of the Batman Wizard: Yes, a Rogue can do it better when the Wizard is just getting his second level spells, but the point is the Wizard can do it.
A 4th level Wizard can cast Knock at least 3 times per day. It's not a lot, but it's damn useful. And while it might not be as effective as a Rogue's Open Lock, it's there. A Rogue can't really cast spells*.
Also, this is the sort of thing Scrolls are for.




*Okay he can, but still.

ericgrau
2010-01-21, 10:55 AM
Batman nothing. Even the guy with the sword can open doors with hacking or ramming. Basically any class in D&D can get past a door, it's just a matter of how long it takes and how much resources are used. Knock is on the high end of resources (but still low) and the low end of time. It's good in an emergency, so get it on scrolls or maybe a wand most of the time. Otherwise I'd never waste a spell if time was ample. Even if the rogue can't pick it you can eventually break it almost no matter what. Knock is a so-so spell that it doesn't hurt to take.

Riffington
2010-01-21, 11:00 AM
That's right. A door with three locks can't be opened by knock.

So, it depends how common magic is. If magic is rare, knock is great. Nobody expects it, and so a door is going to have at most one good lock. A decent lock is expensive, and you're better off with one good one than two meh locks.

If magic is common, you build the locks accordingly. You hide the lock so it's not obvious to the non-expert how to open it. You put on an 8-in-1 trivial lock: one mechanism to slide 8 bolts; costs nothing and a thief can pick it in seconds, but it's technically 8 and thwarts Knock. You hide a lock such that it physically can't be locked/unlocked by anything other than Knock; you trap that lock (either to harm the caster or to harm the door and render it inoperable). Knock is really easy to make useless if you're a door designer with the gp to build in a good lock. The only question is whether it's on those designers' radar screens.

Keshay
2010-01-21, 11:04 AM
Playing a Rogue I spent zero Skill points in Open Lock and bought a crowbar instead.

Have not yet had a problem with a lock or a door. Why pick a lock when you can just break it? (Sure a high Str modifier helps too.)

Cyrion
2010-01-21, 11:06 AM
I'm in the camp with those who say "Yes, he can, but why would he want to?" Sure, the occasional knock spell or scroll doesn't go down wrong, but a sculpted grease, a glitterdust, web, invisibility, etc. is probably going to have much more utility for the party as a whole. Why occupy your own resources when one of your minions compatriots can do it just as well and can do the extra service of triggering finding the trap?

Or, look at it from a metagaming perspective- let the rogue do it, it allows him to use his skills as a contributing member of the party. Also, if you've got a snarky rules lawyer of a DM, save the spell to contribute to an encounter. Bypassing an untrapped door does not get you anywhere near the XP that casting a spell in a real encounter will. Also, if the best you can do as a wizard is play arcane-one-up-manship with the rogue, why does the party keep you around?

Optimystik
2010-01-21, 11:09 AM
How heavy is a wooden door? Because Shatter (or the similar Warlock invocation) could make short work of any campaign.

Boci
2010-01-21, 11:15 AM
Playing a Rogue I spent zero Skill points in Open Lock and bought a crowbar instead.

Have not yet had a problem with a lock or a door. Why pick a lock when you can just break it? (Sure a high Str modifier helps too.)

A guess open lock is more useful for cityscape games where you may need to not leave behind evidence that you have been there.

ericgrau
2010-01-21, 11:17 AM
How heavy is a wooden door? Because Shatter (or the similar Warlock invocation) could make short work of any campaign.

Way too heavy according to some WotC article, barely light enough at high levels if you assume smaller doors (I assumed 3'x7'). But then at high levels the important doors aren't wood anymore.

Saph
2010-01-21, 11:18 AM
Basically any class in D&D can get past a door, it's just a matter of how long it takes and how much resources are used. Knock is on the high end of resources (but still low) and the low end of time. It's good in an emergency, so get it on scrolls or maybe a wand most of the time. Otherwise I'd never waste a spell if time was ample.

This.

There's really very little reason ever to use Knock. If you have a rogue, you pick the lock. If you have a fighter, you bash the lock. If you have some options, you go around the lock.

If you can't pick the lock AND can't bash the lock AND can't go around the lock, then it's probably one of those irritating "plot dependent doors" as per CRPGs, and you can't open the damn thing no matter what you do without the appropriate MacGuffin, so using a scroll of Knock just wastes 150 gp.

Narazil
2010-01-21, 11:19 AM
A guess open lock is more useful for cityscape games where you may need to not leave behind evidence that you have been there.
I'm pretty sure you can tell if a door or lock has been jimmied. With Knock, however..

Calenestel
2010-01-21, 11:21 AM
Boci's got a point. Literally BREAKING and entering saves you some skill points but it REALLY lacks finesse. Open lock lets you hide the fact that the door has been compromised. Not to mention that an Open Lock spell doesn't AUTOMATICALY trigger traps. :smallamused:

Aure Entuluva!
Calenestel

Calenestel
2010-01-21, 11:23 AM
This.

There's really very little reason ever to use Knock. If you have a rogue, you pick the lock. If you have a fighter, you bash the lock. If you have some options, you go around the lock.

If you can't pick the lock AND can't bash the lock AND can't go around the lock, then it's probably one of those irritating "plot dependent doors" as per CRPGs, and you can't open the damn thing no matter what you do without the appropriate MacGuffin, so using a scroll of Knock just wastes 150 gp.

Knock still has one thing Open Lock hasn't though. It's quick and certain (as long as there's only two locks, as noted above). If you have a horde of enemies hot in pursuit you REALLY doesn't want to hope that the Open Lock check succeeds. I know. :smallfrown:

Aure Entuluva!
Calenestel

Tyndmyr
2010-01-21, 11:31 AM
This.

There's really very little reason ever to use Knock. If you have a rogue, you pick the lock. If you have a fighter, you bash the lock. If you have some options, you go around the lock.

If you can't pick the lock AND can't bash the lock AND can't go around the lock, then it's probably one of those irritating "plot dependent doors" as per CRPGs, and you can't open the damn thing no matter what you do without the appropriate MacGuffin, so using a scroll of Knock just wastes 150 gp.

This is when you blink through the door. It's much harder to stop, has the advantage of not setting off traps, and if you run into a nasty surprise on the other side, you've got a 50% miss chance. One that isn't negated by true seeing.

ericgrau
2010-01-21, 11:33 AM
A 50% miss chance isn't so hot when 4 times as many attacks are focused on you. You could maybe scout this way but splitting the party is a famously bad idea.

Vizzerdrix
2010-01-21, 11:36 AM
Oooh! I just got a nasty idea for a trap! The trap is inert and will not go off unless it is messed with but looks like it will. If it's messed with it zaps the lockpicks with a minor Rust Ray and ruins them.:smallamused:

Now to figure out the price and get it put on my HHH....

Optimystik
2010-01-21, 11:39 AM
This is when you blink through the door. It's much harder to stop, has the advantage of not setting off traps, and if you run into a nasty surprise on the other side, you've got a 50% miss chance. One that isn't negated by true seeing.

You can also Time Hop (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/timeHop.htm) doors.

Boci
2010-01-21, 11:42 AM
I'm pretty sure you can tell if a door or lock has been jimmied.

That would be a pretty high search check I think, and that assumes they are actually looking for signs.


With Knock, however..

Ture. My comment was aimed at the "just smash it" solution. Perfect for dungeons, but not always in a city.

Narazil
2010-01-21, 11:44 AM
That would be a pretty high search check I think, and that assumes they are actually looking for signs.

http://khq.images.worldnow.com/images/11665636_BG2.jpg

Yea.. No. :smallbiggrin:

ericgrau
2010-01-21, 11:45 AM
Picking a lock doesn't leave any more evidence than opening it with a key, which is to say none. You push on the lock pins just like a key does. EDIT: Yeah, a crowbar is obvious of course.

Sliver
2010-01-21, 11:47 AM
So.. What's wrong with eternal wands? :smallconfused:

ericgrau
2010-01-21, 11:48 AM
Limited use per day and initial expense? EDIT: Yeah, any sort of item is the best way to hold a knock spell. I was only pointing out the relative disadvantages (there's an advantage too) of an eternal wand vs regular wands and scrolls.

Vizzerdrix
2010-01-21, 11:48 AM
So.. What's wrong with eternal wands? :smallconfused:

Or a regular wand? Or both!

Boci
2010-01-21, 11:50 AM
EDIT: Yeah, a crowbar is obvious of course.

I think is says a lot about Narazil's play style that his chosen masterwork item for a +2 bonus on open lock is a crowbar. :smallbiggrin:

tyckspoon
2010-01-21, 11:51 AM
-snip-

Yea.. No. :smallbiggrin:

That would be a door that has been forced, not picked. That is, the result of a Strength check to break the lock or possibly using Disable Device on the lock instead of Open Lock. If you take the time and care to actually pick (most) locks, they are indeed opened exactly as if you had keyed them open properly.

Sliver
2010-01-21, 11:52 AM
Limited use per day and initial expense?

If you are in a campaign where you constantly encounter closed doors that need to be opened without leaving evidence of forced entry, a rogue with open lock is not a waste of skill points, while in many campaigns you won't need that many doors opened silently, so an eternal wand of Knock for those times should be enough most of the time, allowing the rogue to take something else..

ericgrau
2010-01-21, 11:56 AM
Well, without leaving damage, not "silently". Wands have command words and if they're anything like verbal spell components they must be spoken with a strong voice. Otherwise you need scrolls of silent knock for 375 gp a pop. But assuming no one is listening and you only need limited uses per day, then yeah that's the niche for eternal wands.

Kurald Galain
2010-01-21, 12:15 PM
I can't even recall the last time opening locks became relevant in one of our gaming sessions.