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Ravens_cry
2010-01-21, 02:40 PM
On the 3.5 Q&A thread I asked this question

If someone dies, and then shrink item is cast on their body, and then they are raised, what happens? Are they still shrunk? What if the shrink item was made permanent?
It seemed to cause some dissension in the ranks, and Temotei221 suggested it get it's own thread. So here it is.
Raise Dead seemed to be the focus the controversy, but the effects of more advanced forms of resuscitation, Resurrection and True Resurrection, were not addressed.

olentu
2010-01-21, 02:56 PM
I suppose it might be helpful to post the specific text that causes the dissent if it is possible to do so. Presumably, as one would assume such a thing must exist, this would be the text from a reputable source that specifies that spells only require a valid target when they are first cast but not during their duration, probably the text of the spells, and then any toher supporting text. Also a summary of the arguments for both sides, probably made up of quotes, could be of use.

Ravens_cry
2010-01-21, 03:04 PM
Fair enough:

The strict RAW reading of the combination of spells says this won't work.


While the spell closes mortal wounds and repairs lethal damage of most kinds, the body of the creature to be raised must be whole.
Removing 99.98% of the original creature's body with Shrink Item makes it ineligible for Raise Dead.
As I said, this doesn't even go into the possibilities of the higher level, Resurrection spells.

Thajocoth
2010-01-21, 03:08 PM
I believe the DM simply decides whether becoming alive makes the body no longer eligible to hold the spell, and therefore the body grows automatically, or if he'd like to go look up the modifiers for the new smaller size to apply to the PC.

As for "missing" most of the body and being unable to raise, the DM might decide that if he particularly hated the player's character... But really, since fantasy worlds don't deal with molecules, a shrunken item is all there. Unless something somewhere says the spell is lossy, I see no reason at all to assume it is. After all, Enlarge Person doesn't 'cause con damage... The person takes up more space without suddenly being full of holes.

olentu
2010-01-21, 03:22 PM
Well first off I can not recall the specific supporting text for the argument of spells and targets so until I can remember I shall leave that one alone.



So then assuming such a thing is true then at least for raise dead the question is what constitutes whole. As an, as far as I can see, undefined term there is no raw answer as to what it means. So casting the spell on anyone at all requires DM approval as to the remains being whole.

As to the higher level spells it would probably depend on just what "full hit points, vigor, and health," are thus making such a thing a DM call again assuming that the undefined terms are as undefined as I recall.

Fitz10019
2010-01-21, 04:05 PM
I think everyone should keep in mind that this started as a Raw Q&A post, so 'it's up to your DM' is not in the spirit of the question. It was too debatable for that thread, so it should be debated here, but based on RAW arguments.

I would caution that, even if this works, the "...returned to normal composition and size merely by tossing them onto any solid surface" would happen very easily.

Irreverent Fool
2010-01-21, 04:29 PM
Yes, by RAW, this works. This sort of ruling is the basis for ridiculous stat-pumping and various other 'things you should not do' that pop up in theoretical char. op.

I remember another long thread on this long ago. However I cannot find it at the moment. I'll link it if I manage to come across it.

Prerequisites for conditions only pertain when the condition is applied, not once the condition is in place. Nowhere does it state in any spell that, should the target cease to be valid, the spell effect ends. This means a character who gains the animal type can be awakened and a dead body can indeed become subject to a permanencied shrink item.

obnoxious
sig

dsmiles
2010-01-21, 04:31 PM
I think this makes you ineligible for raise dead. But since resurrection and true resurrection can be used on even just a part of the body, the shrink item would be nullified when you come back...hmmmmmm...:smallconfused:

Riffington
2010-01-21, 04:38 PM
Prerequisites for conditions only pertain when the condition is applied, not once the condition is in place.

Do you have a reference for this?

Tyndmyr
2010-01-21, 04:39 PM
As for "missing" most of the body and being unable to raise, the DM might decide that if he particularly hated the player's character...

And if we go with this interpretation, so long as we have any portion of a dead comrade's body at all, we can rez him without resorting to true res. So, this interpretation is pretty clearly broken.

I agree, it can't be used by any reasonable DM.

As for it being nullified upon return...I don't know. I'd have to trawl RC for that.

olentu
2010-01-21, 04:53 PM
I think everyone should keep in mind that this started as a Raw Q&A post, so 'it's up to your DM' is not in the spirit of the question. It was too debatable for that thread, so it should be debated here, but based on RAW arguments.

I would caution that, even if this works, the "...returned to normal composition and size merely by tossing them onto any solid surface" would happen very easily.

Since the argument is over one term that is not defined in the rules then assuming that both sides choice of what whole would mean is a valid definition then the term is undefined by the rules. As such unless someone can show something contradicting one choice of what whole means then both are valid and choosing on over another is completely not part of the rules. So without such a thing the RAW answer must be DM choice or that there is no answer as multiple valid conflicting interpretations exist. To do otherwise is stepping outside of the rules and would be the antithesis of all such a thread stands for or the name is quite misleading.


Edit: However as there appears to be doubt as to the targeting question that could provide a resolution depending on how it ends.