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Dagren
2010-01-21, 06:08 PM
I'm looking to start a new D&D group with some friends who haven't played before, which basically means I have to be DM, since nobody else knows the rules well enough. I've never DMed before though, and I'm a little apprehensive about it, it takes more than just knowing the rules after all. Does anyone have any helpful advice they could give me please?

One thing in particular I'd like some guidance on please, is if it's advisable for me to run a member of the adventuring group, would that really work? Or would knowing what's going to happen next make it too awkward? Thanks.

MlleRouge
2010-01-21, 06:23 PM
Hello Dagren


That's very similar to the situation that I found myself in when I first DM'd, and now it's my preferred role at the gaming table. It's pretty scary at first, but my best advice would be to just get out there and give it a shot. The best way to learn is by doing, and as long as you watch yourself, get feedback and correct your mistakes as you go, you should be fine :smallsmile:

Some simple advice I would give would be to keep careful track or everything that's going on, including the players' advancement, your own plotline events if it is a complicated or political game, and especially the logistics. The more organized your XP, treasure, encounters, etc, the smoother things will go. So keep good notes and keep things well organized around you so you can access all of that type of information quickly and keep things going smoothly. I use a subdivided notebook and keep a highlighter handy when I plan sessions, but Ive also seen people who use notecards or laptops to keep things in front of them and ready to go. This can really help alleviate headaches and avoid confusion.

As for running a member of the adventure party, do you mean a DMPC? Those are controversial, but I personally feel that they can work out. I sometimes use one and sometimes don't. The important part is don't steal the glory from the players. No killing blows on bosses, no especially sweet gear compared to the PCs, no ace-in-the-sleeve save the day moments when someone in the party could have handled it, etc.

I often wait to decide if I'm using one based on how the players react to the NPCs that are already in the game. If they particularly like one and want to keep him/her around, it works out much better than just tossing out a DMPC and saying 'Okay, this guy is going with you!". That can lead to resentment, especially if the PCs don't actually like the character or find it's personality annoying.

Maybe even more important is not metagaming yourself if you do decide to use a DMPC. Remember, you may know what's happening next, but the character shouldn't. If you're worried about the DMPC idea being awkward, run it by the players first.

Hope this helped!

Dragero
2010-01-21, 07:18 PM
I DMed my 1st game last week, it was pretty scary! My whole party was 1st time players, so I taught them :D.

My advice: Plan out what happens next. Go to the bathroom if you need time to think. Also, don`t give them a +2 Lucky longsword :( (with 2 wishes)

Yakk
2010-01-21, 07:30 PM
I'm looking to start a new D&D group with some friends who haven't played before, which basically means I have to be DM, since nobody else knows the rules well enough. I've never DMed before though, and I'm a little apprehensive about it, it takes more than just knowing the rules after all. Does anyone have any helpful advice they could give me please?
Sure!

Give parties decisions. Try to make sure that no matter what they decide, that the result is something interesting.

Ask players what motivates their characters -- what do their characters want? Do they have any friends? Do they have any enemies? Do they have any goals?

Use these, sparingly, to make decisions more interesting. Do not try to force decisions -- follow the rule that both paths a group can choose should be interesting.

...

Next, if things are going slowly, having the players be attacked can keep them on their toes. The attack doesn't have to be a hard fight. The attackers should leave a small amount of information about why they attacked the players, and should make sense.

This can provide a motivation for the players to do something against the rude people who attacked them.

...

Avoid using the in-game power structure to bully the party.

...

Your goal should be to see if you can make your friends go "that is awesome", rather than playing power games. As the DM, playing power games is stupid, because you hold all of the cards. Make your players feel awesome.

One thing in particular I'd like some guidance on please, is if it's advisable for me to run a member of the adventuring group, would that really work? Or would knowing what's going to happen next make it too awkward? Thanks.
It is generally considered a bad idea, and hard to do well.

So I'd avoid it.

shadow_archmagi
2010-01-21, 07:31 PM
Hello Dagren
Some simple advice I would give would be to keep careful track or everything that's going on, including the players' advancement, your own plotline events if it is a complicated or political game, and especially the logistics. The more organized your XP, treasure, encounters, etc, the smoother things will go. So keep good notes and keep things well organized around you so you can access all of that type of information quickly and keep things going smoothly.

I use a subdivided notebook and keep a highlighter handy when I plan sessions, but Ive also seen people who use notecards or laptops to keep things in front of them and ready to go. This can really help alleviate headaches and avoid confusion.


I've been DMing for about a year now, and for my most recent campaign, I've taken organization to a higher level than ever before: I actually wrote down all the character's names, classes, and players!

The number one rule, above all else, is to stay calm, reasonable, and ready for anything (Of course, whether you're ready to thwart their plans or roll with the punches is up to you).

EDIT: Running an DMPC is generally frowned upon. Personally, I feel it could be used to provide a good supply of exposition and support (Toss in a bard, maybe?) but I've never actually had to run a DMPC.

However, all too often, DMPCs turn out to be Gandalf (That is to say, Gandalf knows everything about everything, everyone outside the party <3s him, and many of the climactic battles are just Gandalf saying "Hey guys imma solve your problems now" and completely outdoing the rest of the party).

HailDiscordia
2010-01-21, 07:40 PM
Just make it simple, for the new PC's and for yourself. Have a couple encounters planned out that you understand. Avoid complicated special attacks (for now).

I would also recommend starting the game out in the woods or somewhere that is not a town so they/you don't get too bogged down with NPC's and trying to discover a plot. Just give them one off the bat, this is not railroading its just getting a group of first time gamers started. Plus there is always the threat of new players attacking a commoner which will derail things right away. I've seen it happen more than once. There is nothing wrong with starting things off like, "You've been following a group of bandits for about a day and a half. There is a bounty of 100gp for the leader..."

Make sure you know all the PC's hit points and AC, have it written down in front of you. I would also really recommend sticking to core, if for nothing else all the rules are in one place.

Good luck. Personally, I love breaking in new players. It's a little slow at times but very rewarding.

MlleRouge
2010-01-21, 08:07 PM
I've been DMing for about a year now, and for my most recent campaign, I've taken organization to a higher level than ever before: I actually wrote down all the character's names, classes, and players!



I made the mistake of trusting my players (who are also most of my best friends, though I imagine that's common) the first time I DM'd, and there was quite a bit of cheating. Nowadays I write down almost everything XD Especially money, XP and the like. Nothing like learning from mistakes.


Yakk makes a great point about being ready for anything, by the way. Players do the darnedest things, and frankly, I don't like to give them the satisfaction of a shocked look on my face :smallwink:



Happy gaming!

shadow_archmagi
2010-01-21, 08:22 PM
I made the mistake of trusting my players (who are also most of my best friends, though I imagine that's common) the first time I DM'd, and there was quite a bit of cheating.
I don't like to give them the satisfaction of a shocked look on my face


I find that PRETENDING to have thought of things beforehand, and PRETENDING to keep careful track of things is enough.

Kaun
2010-01-21, 08:56 PM
I find that PRETENDING to have thought of things beforehand, and PRETENDING to keep careful track of things is enough.

Amen, nothing in your game is solid until you have said it.

If your players do something awesome or smart and end up beating a part of the adventure with out much effort - reward them for it.

If they start doing it over and over again then ajust on the fly.

As for DMPC's run a few games befor you decide to put one in or not. Running a DMPC's is very easy to do wrong so it would be beter to get some exp as a DM first.

Also if you end up putting one in make sure it NEVER steals the spot light from your players. Unless of course because its double crossing them
(But do that to often and you players will mistrust ever DMPC you ever have for ever so i wouldnt do it with your first one.)

shadow_archmagi
2010-01-21, 10:08 PM
Amen, nothing in your game is solid until you have said it.

If your players do something awesome or smart and end up beating a part of the adventure with out much effort - reward them for it.


PRO DM TIP:

If you ever find yourself stumped, and need a bit of time to think, there is one simple and elegant solution: Ask your players to discuss something. For example, the first session of my most recent campaign? I had not planned at all, and I needed a bit, so I told them to write up a Party Contract that included

1. Party member's names (they bickered over whether to put their real names)
2. Party's Name (They eventually went with Bloody Purple Hearts, but only after much deliberation)
3. Distribution of Loot (They eventually went with 30-30-30-10, with the 10 going into a mutual fund. )

This bought me a solid twenty minutes.

Dire Moose
2010-01-21, 10:23 PM
I was in the exact same situation about a year and a half ago, and my group is now at level 7. So, a few pointers:

"You All Meet In A Tavern" works OK if you're introducing new members to an established group, but the scenario should not be used at the very beginning of the campaign.

DMPCs are not a good idea in my opinion. What I did instead was to have a close friend of mine join the campaign and play a guy who was getting paid to carry out the initial mission. The party was thus kept together from the start without too much trouble.

If it's a problem with party balance, I have noticed that as long as there is at least one healer and one tank things will go alright. If there is a locked door and nobody wanted to be a rogue, Mr. Big Sword can open it aggressively, and if magic seems the only solution to a puzzle, rest assured that somebody can MacGyver up his own solution to it. Just let the players know what abilities are truly essential.

As for plot? I began by plopping everyone down in front of a dungeon entrance and telling them they'd been hired to get the MacGuffin from within. Of course, it would later turn out that the jewel they were looking for had been taken elsewhere long before they had arrived and was actually part of an evil king's plan to awaken and control the Tarrasque, but nobody would figure the whole thing out for months.

Glass Mouse
2010-01-21, 11:21 PM
A bit of advice for your first few sessions: Dump them in a fixed location. That way, you can have everything prepared beforehand, no nasty improvization surprises, and - as a bonus - things aren't too "big" for the players, either.
It takes a while to plan out the whole dungeon/mansion/arena/whatever, but if you're lucky it's material for two-three relatively easy sessions.

Having new players is a blessing. A blessing because you know the rules better, they show up with open eyes and no experience (if you muck up, they won't notice). And the players probably won't be interested in plunging directly into a full storyline. You can all take it slow. A GM friend of mine had novice players for his first GM'ing, and he really put it as "growing as a GM along with the players and characters."
The "downside" is that they're not experienced. They don't know the clichées, they might not know that they're supposed to go to the inn, or roll that particular skill check in that particular situation. If they take to roleplaying, they're gonna surprise you. Just be aware of this - don't expect them to be too genre savvy.


Otherwise, it's really just the basics:

Preparation, preparation, preparation. When you're new, improvising is difficult, so you'll like to be prepared for whatever pops up.

Don't railroad. This can be difficult, and it depends on the party, but don't try to control your players. If the leash is too short, they'll choke.

Acknowledge that you will, indeed, make mistakes. You will never have a session where everything goes perfectly. This is okay, and everyone will forgive you for it.

Try to read the group. This is pretty difficult, as you probably have a lot of things to do during play, but if you can get a feel for "this is awesome", "geez, why are we doing this?", "things are moving too slowly", "man, some treasure would come in handy right now", you're well off.

You're not a player. Don't love your NPCs. Yes, you spent a lot of time creating that guy, but now the players attack him. Let him go. (this might go for DMPCs as well).

Some of these, you can use. Some, you will think "well, d'uh!". Take what you need.


An idea could be to find your style of GM'ing. Do you enjoy making elaborate plotlines, sandbox setting-based play, hack'n'slash, puzzles, or something 5th?
Compare this to your players' style of playing.
After this, play up your strengths and patch your weaknesses.


Lastly, talk to your players. Evaluations are always a good thing.

Hope this helps :smallsmile:

Hawriel
2010-01-21, 11:30 PM
use a DM screen. Not to hide behind but because it has all the little charts and stuff on it. its a quick look up you can use in a pinch.

Note card NPCs

Plot characters can be in a note book but make mooks, henchmen and other cooky cutter npcs stats on a 3x5 card. Like 1st level fighter, 1st level rogue. 5th level ranger. orc warrior, ork shamman. Then you can swap them out when ever you need stats for an NPC.

I highly recomend using published adventures for your first campaine. Pathfinder and Goodmen Games make great adventures for starting characters. This way you have a plot and a structure with all the hard work done for you. You can focus on learning how to run a game, then create your own. Any adventure can be changed to your own taists.

Pharaoh's Fist
2010-01-21, 11:57 PM
Don't be afraid to rule your players with an iron fist.

arguskos
2010-01-22, 12:01 AM
Don't be afraid to rule your players with an iron fist.
Somehow... this sounds familiar... I wonder why.... :smalltongue:

DM Advice: Learn to fly by the seat of your pants. Really. Improv like you're being paid for it. It's a very very useful skill.

drengnikrafe
2010-01-22, 12:15 AM
If you are going to plan, don't half-ass it. Nothing says "I didn't plan this fully through" quite like the start of a session having descriptions like
"You enter the shop. A number of ornately carved swords hanging on the walls, in designs you hadn't even begin to imagine as working for a weapon. A war-hardened mercenary stands behind the counter. A star shaped scar lies below his left eye, and he glares at you with the fury of a thousand survived battles. There is a door behind him, but it's partially obscured by a curtain, meaning he probably didn't want you to know about it, but forgot to close it all the way. The floor is a polished stone."
And the end having descriptions like
"You enter the shop. There's stuff all over the place. A guy behind the counter says 'Waddaya want?'"

Also, since it is your first time, ask your players to play nice. Some players have the urge to optimize beyond reason, and play around, trying to mess you up. It can be a good skill building exersize later, but at the start, it's just plain hard to deal with.

If, for some reason, you completely bomb it and lose confidence... just run a premade adventure. Not great for world-building, but good for having things handled for you.


Also, having a fully planned world is really cool, having plot hooks all over the place with loosely created plots behind them with various facets planned out... it's a lot of work. It takes hours of dedicated work. Improvisation is your friend.

illyrus
2010-01-22, 12:31 AM
Personally I'd start with a 3 session throwaway mini-campaign. Full transparency of what you're doing, start off with easy fights and encounters and always be on the players side. Full kid gloves sort of stuff as everyone learns the rules. Try to pick out what sort of stuff each person likes and dislikes, and as others have said get feedback.

Then once you all have three sessions under your belt make a new game with a bit less of the kid's gloves on but with the player's likes and dislikes in mind. Generally remember though that players like having their characters shine and it will be more of a positive experience if you let them with some skill rolls swing on a chandelier and land on the back of a dire wolf and use the beast as an unwilling mount in the fight than it is to deny them cool actions like that.

Save the survival horror, political intrigue, and dark worlds for a campaign when everyone has a better grasp of the system; if for no other reason than nothing breaks a serious mood like players asking 20 questions on how grappling works when a vampire is sucking a PC's blood. Keep it fairly light and fun and develop your campaign as they go.

ShippoWildheart
2010-01-22, 12:35 AM
Avoid, or at least learn the following:
1. Grappling rules
2. All possible gamebreakers/cheese that will make your campaign go up in smokes or really hard to manage.

*I never DMed before, but I can easily imagine how annoying the above 2 can be.

Cheesy Wizard: I Chain-Gate Solars and wish for a Candle of Invocation and attack the Big Bad Evil Boss!

Superglucose
2010-01-22, 01:33 AM
Step 1:

WBL table; keep them close to it please. If you are concerned about magic items, that's fine. Keep in mind that keeping them far below WBL isn't just stopping them from getting that +5 Keen Vorpal Sword of Slay Sentient Being, it's also stopping them from upgrading their armor to full plate.

Step 2:

CR are not perfect, but they're the best tool you have short of experience.

ShippoWildheart
2010-01-22, 01:47 AM
Step 1:

WBL table; keep them close to it please. If you are concerned about magic items, that's fine. Keep in mind that keeping them far below WBL isn't just stopping them from getting that +5 Keen Vorpal Sword of Slay Sentient Being, it's also stopping them from upgrading their armor to full plate.

Step 2:

CR are not perfect, but they're the best tool you have short of experience.

There's nothing wrong with Full plate/magical armor. Armor is far less abusable than weapons. Weapons kill faster. Armor lets you live longer. In the DnD action economy, killing faster is always better.

JeanThine
2010-01-22, 08:24 AM
I started DMing almost as soon as I started playing.

My trick has always been to play to your audience and guess what you don't know.

Specifically, if you're playing with a bunch of first timers, they aren't going to be know to search every room they walk into, they'll fall into the first hole in the floor they didn't look for.

My first time DMing was actually with my 8 year old cousins, I got them to round up whatever dice they had in their house (a handfull of d6s) and made up a system with one rule in mind: tell me what you want to do, and it'll happen. They spend two hours running through a castle with three rooms and a wooden toy dragon at the end. The key there was simplicity. I couldn't have done that if I pulled out a rulebook or tried to make things properly balanced. I just had to guess what was right.

My second time DMing, however, was with a group made up of people who had read the book we were playing from (Pathfinder, a 3.5 clone) and knew all the characters and relevant rules a lot better than I did. In that situation you need to make things up to their expectations, which involves accurate distribution of treasure and bad guys, etc. but the key is still feeling what they want.

For this reason I started with a 'calibration dungeon' as I like to call it. It's a dungeon that they start in, no real reason except that they're there, and then you watch what they do. You put in a few fights, a few puzzles, some NPCs and a couple of bad guys they can talk to. Then you see what they do, and realise this is how you need to make things. The NPC characters got used mercilessly, the puzzles were solved quickly, bad guys were fought minimally and the chatty bad guy at the end was so utterly confused i was tempted to make it start bashing its head against the wall. So I knew then that every bad guy was going to get a talking to, every fight would be wormed out of where possible and every puzzle would be blitzed. I now have a map of what my party wants, and what will be challenging for them.

kamikasei
2010-01-22, 08:32 AM
Let me point you at this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=76474).

pasko77
2010-01-22, 08:38 AM
I'm surprised nobody pointed it yet.
So You Wanna Be A DM?: A Potentially Helpful Guide (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=76474)

edit:
Kamikasei, i hate you :)

kamikasei
2010-01-22, 08:47 AM
Kamikasei, i hate you :)

http://msp299.photobucket.com/albums/mm288/jantwenty1/kakashi_thumbs_up.jpg

Dagren
2010-01-23, 07:57 PM
Let me point you at this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=76474).Huh. Funny I didn't notice that, I was looking for something like it.

Anyway, thanks for all the advice y'all, especially about the DMPC thing. I think I'll wait a bit before introducing anyone like that, if I do at all. (Although I'm pretty adamant that should I take a PC, he/she would be on a level playing field with the other PCs, I agree nobody likes a Gandalf) I'll let you know how it turns out, if anyone's interested. (Might be a while though, I'm pretty busy with school at the moment)

Hawriel
2010-01-24, 05:39 AM
Heh If DMPCs where run more like Gandalf there would be alot less hate for them.

BobVosh
2010-01-24, 06:03 AM
Heh If DMPCs where run more like Gandalf there would be alot less hate for them.

Absent from the party? Yes, that does help.

Kaun
2010-01-24, 06:22 AM
Heh If DMPCs where run more like Gandalf there would be alot less hate for them.

Gandalf spent the better half of the movie making sure the plot stayed on the rail, a decent chunk being forgoten about and then a few moments of holding of the big evil and looking cool.

That sounds like your run of the mill DMPC

Pharaoh's Fist
2010-01-24, 12:07 PM
Heh If DMPCs where run more like Gandalf there would be alot less hate for them.

http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=900

Yora
2010-01-24, 12:17 PM
If most players and the gm are new to the system or RPGs in general, I'd start with one or two sessions of "combat training" without bothering about a plot. Just make all players create 1st level characters and set them up against some enemies.
When you start with the actual adventure or campaign the next session, things won't come to a halt the very first time somebody draws a weapon.

Also, start small. Don't try to build an epic campaign running for three years up to level 37. Just one simple quest that may take one two three sessions. When it's done start thinking about the next adventure, maybe also including characters or places the players have visited in the last one.