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View Full Version : Feats as a result of gameplay rather than advancement



DementedFellow
2010-01-21, 07:17 PM
A couple weeks ago, someone in the Playground said that playing a game of "hide the phylactery" is how many of his characters earned the lich-loved feat.

While I know it is possible to reward players with feats, which feats lend themselves to "achievement unlocked" status?

Optimystik
2010-01-21, 07:20 PM
A couple weeks ago, someone in the Playground said that playing a game of "hide the phylactery" is how many of his characters earned the lich-loved feat.

I think I threw up in my mouth a little.


While I know it is possible to reward players with feats, which feats lend themselves to "achievement unlocked" status?

Let's see... the spell focus line of feats could be gained by casting spells from X school Y times. Something like that?

nekomata2
2010-01-21, 07:22 PM
The Weapon Focus line, for someone who hits/kills X enemies, or something like that. If people can earn feats that way though, watch out for the Dark Chaos Shuffle.

Drakevarg
2010-01-21, 07:27 PM
I like this idea. Makes feats seem, y'know, more like FEATS. As opposed to "Arbitrarily Granted Special Abilities."

I'll try to homebrew something if no one else will...

Tavar
2010-01-21, 07:29 PM
You should probably make any Achievement Feats not usable with the DCS. Or just ban it, probably a more sensible solution in the end.

Really, just about any feat can fall into those lines. I'd look more for feats that can't. Like maybe Collegiate Wizard?

Iceforge
2010-01-21, 07:42 PM
would introduce a problem of balance through, if all feats was granted through gameplay rather than through level advancement.

Sure would suck to be a fighter and see your one advantage, the mass of feats, being taken away, as you'd have to earn it like everybody else.

At least if we are talking 3.5, I wouldn't know about 4th.

absolmorph
2010-01-21, 07:46 PM
The Weapon Focus line, for someone who hits/kills X enemies, or something like that. If people can earn feats that way though, watch out for the Dark Chaos Shuffle.
Not if you don't allow them to be changed. Or just give them the effects of the feat, without the actual feat, and allow them to take anything with the feat as a prerequisite.

Fighters wouldn't lose much. They would be able to get all their bonus feats, and then work to get feats for another build, and then get even more feats for another build.
Yeah, they have to work at it, but so would any character who wants to try and take away the only bonus of being a fighter.

Swordgleam
2010-01-21, 07:47 PM
The spelltouched feats are an obvious choice.

DementedFellow
2010-01-21, 07:59 PM
would introduce a problem of balance through, if all feats was granted through gameplay rather than through level advancement.

Sure would suck to be a fighter and see your one advantage, the mass of feats, being taken away, as you'd have to earn it like everybody else.

At least if we are talking 3.5, I wouldn't know about 4th.

It's not a complete revamp, just an addition to what is already being offered. Lich-loved only gives a slight bonus and is in no way game-breaking.

elonin
2010-01-21, 08:00 PM
If you are talking about feats in addition to all the perks of advancement ie role play feat in addition to regular advancement, there would be no reason to play a fighter. Of course it depends on how often these feats were handed out.

There was a game I played a long time ago called arcanum that had an xp system in which you could buy individual levels or spend xp for single feats.

Drakevarg
2010-01-21, 08:01 PM
Making Fighters retain their advantage wouldn't be that hard. Just make it so that the prerequisites for feats are cut in half for fighters.

Also; BLIP!

Boci
2010-01-21, 08:07 PM
It's not a complete revamp, just an addition to what is already being offered. Lich-loved only gives a slight bonus and is in no way game-breaking.

This has potential to all the feats that are too weak such as endurance or run.

AmberVael
2010-01-21, 08:10 PM
You know what would be more than feats as a result of character accomplishment and actions? Feats as a result of things done by the player. :smalltongue:

You want the endurance feat? Jog in place all session. Willing Deformity (Gaunt)? No cheetos or Mt. Dew for you! Luck feats? You better roll those twenties. Vow of poverty? You can never bring your own dice, books, character model, or anything. Borrow it from other people. Or improvise with cheap stuff.

Now that would be entertaining. :smallwink:

Boci
2010-01-21, 08:14 PM
You know what would be more than feats as a result of character accomplishment and actions? Feats as a result of things done by the player. :smalltongue:

You want the endurance feat? Jog in place all session. Willing Deformity (Gaunt)? No cheetos or Mt. Dew for you! Luck feats? You better roll those twenties. Vow of poverty? You can never bring your own dice, books, character model, or anything. Borrow it from other people. Or improvise with cheap stuff.

Now that would be entertaining. :smallwink:

I think my dread necromancer can suddenly do without lich-loved.

Temotei
2010-01-21, 09:05 PM
Yeah...Fiery Fists.

I think the bard feats would be particularly interesting for the players to try to earn with their actions.

Boci
2010-01-21, 09:14 PM
I think the bard feats would be particularly interesting for the players to try to earn with their actions.

I'd love to, but a court order prevents me. Some BS about noise polution.

BenTheJester
2010-01-21, 09:20 PM
You know what would be more than feats as a result of character accomplishment and actions? Feats as a result of things done by the player. :smalltongue:

You want the endurance feat? Jog in place all session. Willing Deformity (Gaunt)? No cheetos or Mt. Dew for you! Luck feats? You better roll those twenties. Vow of poverty? You can never bring your own dice, books, character model, or anything. Borrow it from other people. Or improvise with cheap stuff.

Now that would be entertaining. :smallwink:

Just take two forks, look your DM in the eyes with a crazy look on your face and say "sooooo, how do I get two-weapon rend?"

Tengu_temp
2010-01-21, 09:23 PM
Giving the players a feat as a plotline reward, in addition to normally gained ones, seems to be okay. Especially if the feat is not very powerful or has plot significance.

Making a whole system with prerequesites, such as "if you deal X damage with a weapon, you gain Weapon Focus in it", is a bad, bad idea. You bet you'll have people concentrating on grinding stuff in order to gain feats as opposed to, I dunno, participating in the adventure? Not to mention the potential for abuse, and all the extra book keeping. RPGs have an experience system for a reason.

Drakevarg
2010-01-21, 09:26 PM
Well it's easy to avoid grinding: don't give them anything to kill.

Idlewyld
2010-01-21, 09:37 PM
I like the idea for feats that aren't combat based, like run, smooth talk, etc., because sometimes it is natural ability more than trained ability and can be explained with a sufficiant background story.

DementedFellow
2010-01-21, 09:56 PM
I, too, am against the whole weapon and spell lines. How many other feats are full of flavor, but don't have much in the way of power that could be unlocked without breaking the game?

Vizzerdrix
2010-01-21, 10:04 PM
A couple weeks ago, someone in the Playground said that playing a game of "hide the phylactery" is how many of his characters earned the lich-loved feat.

Aww you remember me ^_^

Iceforge
2010-01-21, 10:06 PM
It's not a complete revamp, just an addition to what is already being offered. Lich-loved only gives a slight bonus and is in no way game-breaking.

Yeah, I know, and a single event with a feat being awarded across the board might be fine, but the topic, as I read it, aws more about going a revamp.

Even if just added in addition to normal feat gain, it could be balance breaking.

A Level 20 human fighter (to take one end of the spectrum) has 19 feats (starting feat, 6 from level 3, 6, 9, 12, 15 and 18, 11 bonus feats and the human bonus feat).

A Level 20 halfling rogue (the other end basicly) 7 feats (start + progress feats)

Anything that adds 1 feat to each of those is more benifitial to the rogue as an extra feat is 5% for the fighter, but nearly 15% for the rogue.

If the feat gained is the same and granted by the GM, it is less of a problem, but if you give the idea to players that you will award them feats if they do something that should logically give the feat to their characters, it is much easier to exploit for a rogue than for a fighter

Rainbownaga
2010-01-21, 10:11 PM
Well it's easy to avoid grinding: don't give them anything to kill.

I don't think many adventurers have problems finding things to kill; in my experience it tends to be quite the opposite. (That poor gnomish village :smallfrown:)

BenTheJester
2010-01-21, 10:13 PM
Yeah, I know, and a single event with a feat being awarded across the board might be fine, but the topic, as I read it, aws more about going a revamp.

Even if just added in addition to normal feat gain, it could be balance breaking.

A Level 20 human fighter (to take one end of the spectrum) has 19 feats (starting feat, 6 from level 3, 6, 9, 12, 15 and 18, 11 bonus feats and the human bonus feat).

A Level 20 halfling rogue (the other end basicly) 7 feats (start + progress feats)

Anything that adds 1 feat to each of those is more benifitial to the rogue as an extra feat is 5% for the fighter, but nearly 15% for the rogue.

If the feat gained is the same and granted by the GM, it is less of a problem, but if you give the idea to players that you will award them feats if they do something that should logically give the feat to their characters, it is much easier to exploit for a rogue than for a fighter

You shouldn't really be comparing Fighter to, well, ANYTHING balance-wise


The idea is neat. Giving feats that are fun to have, but that nobody would ever dare waste a precious feat on, is awesome.

Ormagoden
2010-01-21, 10:16 PM
Just take two forks, look your DM in the eyes with a crazy look on your face and say "sooooo, how do I get two-weapon rend?"

HAH HAH HA! I'm rollin! Loved it!

Thrawn183
2010-01-21, 10:24 PM
If they win initiative a lot and make lots of attacks of opportunity, combat reflexes?

Survive poisoning a lot give them great fortitude?

Yeah, I prefer the less commonly taken feats like Run or Alertness.

Though I really hope you have a chance to give out Brachiation. Clearly it would be the result of having a great time.

Drakevarg
2010-01-21, 10:30 PM
I don't think many adventurers have problems finding things to kill; in my experience it tends to be quite the opposite. (That poor gnomish village :smallfrown:)

Party now has bounty on their heads; can't enter civilization without facing stabbity death or life imprisonment. Attempting to escape prison goes straight to stabbity death.

Random acts of slaughter is a good way to have an entirely in-story reason to cause Rocks Fall Everyone Dies.

Foryn Gilnith
2010-01-21, 10:38 PM
The original concern raised was that PCs would grind for feats instead of actually going on the adventures. But, well, if the adventure isn't more compelling than a few minor bonuses, then the PCs aren't exactly the typical heroes.

Temotei
2010-01-21, 10:40 PM
Well it's easy to avoid grinding: don't give them anything to kill.

Players: We travel to Baator! Ninth layer!
DM: Fire's everywhere...blah blah...
Players: Sweet! Devils!
DM: Actually, the place is strangely deserted.
Players: Free loot!
DM: ...dang. Err...boulders fall. You die. :smallamused:

kvanever
2010-01-21, 10:58 PM
I don't think necessarily giving out feats is the only option. It could just be miscellaneous competence bonuses. A fighter kills 100 goblins in melee, he could get a +1 competence bonus to attack rolls against goblins. A wizard casts fireball 50 times in combat, +1 to the save DC for fireball in the future. You could do the same for rogues who get off 100 sneak attacks, or open 50 locks, or any number of options.

Another cool variant is magic weapons. A +1 longsword is cool, but if you kill 100 goblins with that sword, all of a sudden it's Glamdring, Goblinslayer, and gets a +2 vs goblins. The earned bonus might even stack with bane. Then you've got a sword with some cool roleplaying elements.

I think the key is to not tell characters how to earn these bonuses. If you're willing to do the bookkeeping, just award them whenever they hit those secret marks you've made up. Then they get cool bonuses intermittently, but won't be as focused on arbitrarily trying to grind specific actions.

There could be some balance issues, but if you're just handing out +1/+2 bonuses to very specific things, I think the roleplaying/unique character development benefits outweigh the balance issues.

DementedFellow
2010-01-21, 11:03 PM
I guess I should have been more specific. I am looking for weaker feats that would be unlockable through gameplay. These feats would be the type of feats that no one would want to blow an actual feat on, but are flavorful nonetheless.

Fiery Diamond
2010-01-21, 11:05 PM
Anything that adds 1 feat to each of those is more benifitial to the rogue as an extra feat is 5% for the fighter, but nearly 15% for the rogue.

If the feat gained is the same and granted by the GM, it is less of a problem, but if you give the idea to players that you will award them feats if they do something that should logically give the feat to their characters, it is much easier to exploit for a rogue than for a fighter

The first is true and I cannot argue with it.
The second is... not necessarily true. A fighter's player could quite easily roleplay extra training, take time out when in cities or towns to practice with his weapons, seek out masters to train under to learn special techniques, etc., for which you could reward them with certain fighter feats. ....At least, this is assuming you were addressing the actual suggestion about rewarding character actions rather than the joke about rewarding player actions.

kvanever
2010-01-21, 11:10 PM
I guess I should have been more specific. I am looking for weaker feats that would be unlockable through gameplay. These feats would be the type of feats that no one would want to blow an actual feat on, but are flavorful nonetheless.

So something like Eschew Materials, given out to a wizard who gets his spell components ripped away by a grappling foe, makes a huge Spellcraft check to try to cast his material component requiring spell, succeeds and has a revelation about his own inner power and can henceforth choose to Eschew Materials?

EDIT: It's even better if it's a life or death, down to 1 HP situation.

Drakevarg
2010-01-21, 11:18 PM
Players: We travel to Baator! Ninth layer!
DM: Fire's everywhere...blah blah...
Players: Sweet! Devils!
DM: Actually, the place is strangely deserted.
Players: Free loot!
DM: ...dang. Err...boulders fall. You die. :smallamused:

Baator hardly counts. I mean, what else do you do in there besides stab things? You'd get XP that way too. Feats either way.

Or, y'know, they just run out of things to stab first. Or something bigger than them gets tired of them stabbing things. The trick is just to make GRINDING impossible.

Noodles2375
2010-01-21, 11:25 PM
I agree with what Boci said.

I've been in games where some really weak feats were given away as storyline bonuses. It was exclusively ones like one, skill focus, or the +2 to two skills feats.

I think it is pretty fun, people feel like they are breaking the rules in a kind of cool way but they aren't really breaking anything too severely.