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Drakevarg
2010-01-21, 11:27 PM
I've been flipping through Complete Warrior recently and something rather odd has occured to me: several of these classes have completely pointless and inane prerequisites. For example, Kensai, Knight Protectors, and Purple Dragon Knights all have ranks in Ride as a prerequisite for entering the quest, despite the fact that their classes have nothing whatsoever to do with mounts.

My questions to the Playground are thusly: what is the point of these prerequisites, and what other PrCs have you seen with prerequisites that have little to nothing to do with the class themselves?

Kelb_Panthera
2010-01-21, 11:34 PM
In both the knight protector and purple dragon knight, the ranks in ride are because, historically, knights rode horses. With Kensai, it's the same thing but with samurai instead of knights.

Drakevarg
2010-01-21, 11:38 PM
Which would make total sense if they got a mount as a class feature... which they don't. Instead they throw in the prerequisite as fluff that you are in no way obligated to use, and indeed if I ever took the class, I wouldn't. Not a fan of mounts.

I mean, if it was a fluff thing, just make Ride a class skill, not a necessity to take the class. :smallannoyed:

drengnikrafe
2010-01-21, 11:43 PM
I recall reading that if you wanted to become a Blackguard, you needed to spend 2 feats and 2 dozen skill points or so on things that a paladin would virtually never spend feats and skill points on. So... you need to plan to fall.

Pharaoh's Fist
2010-01-21, 11:47 PM
I recall reading that if you wanted to become a Blackguard, you needed to spend 2 feats and 2 dozen skill points or so on things that a paladin would virtually never spend feats and skill points on. So... you need to plan to fall.

Fall, then take a dip in Rogue.

Drakevarg
2010-01-21, 11:49 PM
Fall, then take a dip in Rogue.

Because the first thing a paladin does after losing his powers is knife people in the back.

Faleldir
2010-01-21, 11:54 PM
From Oriental Adventures, the Blade Dancer requires arcane or divine spells for no apparent reason.

Ryuuk
2010-01-21, 11:54 PM
A Paladin that eventually becomes a Backsabbing Blackguard? Yes.

The way I see it, Rogues and scoundrel type characters going into Blackguard would be a more common occurrence. The epitome of good suddenly falling from grace and becoming the epitome of evil, even if iconic, would be a much, much rarer occurrence.

Deth Muncher
2010-01-21, 11:54 PM
Because the first thing a paladin does after losing his powers is knife people in the back.

Paladin falls, everybody dies?

Kelb_Panthera
2010-01-21, 11:56 PM
It definitely was a fluff thing. In defense of this I offer that it really wouldn't make much sense if riding was something all knights are supposed to be trained in, yet a considerable number of knights had a 25% shot of falling out of the saddle each time they got hit.

Drakevarg
2010-01-22, 12:07 AM
A Paladin that eventually becomes a Backsabbing Blackguard? Yes.

The way I see it, Rogues and scoundrel type characters going into Blackguard would be a more common occurrence. The epitome of good suddenly falling from grace and becoming the epitome of evil, even if iconic, would be a much, much rarer occurrence.

It might not be strictly in line with the fluff, but I've always pictured Blackguards more inclined to be Lawful Evil. Basically fantasy Darth Vader. Which is also why I never got the whole "Blackguards get Backstab" thing.

Mystic Muse
2010-01-22, 12:08 AM
maybe I'm the only one who remembers Darth vader backstabbing the Emperor then.

Drakevarg
2010-01-22, 12:09 AM
Please. That was a grapple check. And entirely reasonable to kill the guy ELECTROCUTING YOUR SON.

SurlySeraph
2010-01-22, 12:10 AM
This is just a small part of why Paladin of Slaughter/Tyranny makes a better Blackguard than the Blackguard does.

Mystic Muse
2010-01-22, 12:10 AM
Please. That was a grapple check. And entirely reasonable to kill the guy ELECTROCUTING YOUR SON.

it being reasonable doesn't make it not a backstab.

Drakevarg
2010-01-22, 12:12 AM
I was refering to literal backstabs, not metaphorical ones. I can understand the idea of a Blackguard betraying it's master... you'd just expect them to do it with FLAIR. Y'know, big Hannibal Lecture and whatnot. To their face in a climactic duel or whatever.

Blackguards in my head do everything BIG.

Mystic Muse
2010-01-22, 12:15 AM
I'd say throwing Darth's master into the nuclear reactor* while he was still shooting electricity counts as flair.

*Does it really matter if I'm wrong on this?

Drakevarg
2010-01-22, 12:16 AM
Nah. That happened so often in Star Wars I started labeling every big hole in the series as a reactor.

And again, that was a metaphorical backstab done with plenty of flair. A literal backstab doesn't really work if you make for a big show of it.

I mean, to me the Blackguard is The Dragon (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheDragon) personified. With all the flair, badass, and inevitable betrayal that comes with it. The backstabbitude makes me think more The Starscream (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheStarscream). Which is much less cool.

Dacia Brabant
2010-01-22, 12:22 AM
How about the SRD version of the Illithid Slayer still having Knowledge (Dungeoneering) as its required skill despite the fact that psionic monsters--any one of which gets to be the Slayer's favored enemy--are actually covered under the Knowledge (Psionics) skill. A skill that isn't even on their class list. Guh.

Drakevarg
2010-01-22, 12:23 AM
Well, Illithid DO generally live underground...

herrhauptmann
2010-01-22, 12:24 AM
How many people get thrown into big holes in your Star Wars movies, books, comics, games?

New HOpe: Luke+Leia tarzan their way across one in the Death star
Luke shoots a torpedo into one.

Empire strikes back: Luke falls into a hole and ends up hanging from bottom of Cloud City.

Return of Jedi: Lando and Wedge fly ships into the second Death star to shoot it.
Darth throws the Emperor into a hole.

Prequel 1: Maul gets cut in half and falls into obscenely deep hole that seems to serve no purpose beyond letting Obi wan look like he's in trouble, and giving Maul a semi cool death.
Prequel 2: ?
Prequel 3: Samuel L Jackson falls out of a window...
What else in the movies? Haven't seen them or read the books (all of 'em) in years.

sonofzeal
2010-01-22, 12:24 AM
How about the SRD version of the Illithid Slayer still having Knowledge (Dungeoneering) as its required skill despite the fact that psionic monsters--any one of which gets to be the Slayer's favored enemy--are actually covered under the Knowledge (Psionics) skill. A skill that isn't even on their class list. Guh.
It's designed for Mindflayers, which are aberrations, and hence covered under Dungeoneering. They're also covered under Psionics, but that doesn't negate the previous. Mostly, it's just a quick rewrite to cover the fact that mindflayers are not SRD.

Drakevarg
2010-01-22, 12:26 AM
How many people get thrown into big holes in your Star Wars movies, books, comics, games?

New HOpe: Luke+Leia tarzan their way across one in the Death star
Luke shoots a torpedo into one.

Empire strikes back: Luke falls into a hole and ends up hanging from bottom of Cloud City.

Return of Jedi: Lando and Wedge fly ships into the second Death star to shoot it.
Darth throws the Emperor into a hole.

Prequel 1: Maul gets cut in half and falls into obscenely deep hole that seems to serve no purpose beyond letting Obi wan look like he's in trouble, and giving Maul a semi cool death.
Prequel 2: ?
Prequel 3: Samuel L Jackson falls out of a window...
What else in the movies? Haven't seen them or read the books (all of 'em) in years.

That isn't enough for you?

Dacia Brabant
2010-01-22, 12:30 AM
It's designed for Mindflayers, which are aberrations, and hence covered under Dungeoneering. They're also covered under Psionics, but that doesn't negate the previous. Mostly, it's just a quick rewrite to cover the fact that mindflayers are not SRD.

I'm well aware of that, but they still should've rewritten it to show that they're focused on fighting "psionic creatures" and thus changed Dungeoneering to Psionics. What if you want to pick Blues as your favored enemy for some reason?

Kelb_Panthera
2010-01-22, 12:33 AM
So he does his backstab (which isn't technically a backstab anymore btw) with a BFS and the guys guts and sternum fragments explode from his chest. Big enough for ya?

Edit: this was in response to AkushinOka's comment about blackguards being more the dragon than the starscream.

Claudius Maximus
2010-01-22, 12:35 AM
Champion of Correllon Larethian requires Mounted Combat (while offering nothing to further mounted combat), as well as just generally having a lot of prerequisites that have nothing to do with one another.

Master of Nine seems to have the latter problem too.

Drakevarg
2010-01-22, 12:38 AM
So he does his backstab (which isn't technically a backstab anymore btw) with a BFS and the guys guts and sternum fragments explode from his chest. Big enough for ya?

Edit: this was in response to AkushinOka's comment about blackguards being more the dragon than the starscream.

Under one condition: the Blackguard glares over his victim's shoulder and lets out a one-liner before pulling the BFS out with a spray of blood.

Everything a Blackguard does must be a CMOA. It's what replaces the Paladin's Code of Conduct.

herrhauptmann
2010-01-22, 12:57 AM
That isn't enough for you?

It's enough to make the random gaping hole a star wars trope something. But with a reactor at the bottom? Nah.
edit: (added lineout)
If there is a 'random gaping hole' entry on TV Tropes, I'll be amazed. Perhaps trope was a poor choice of word, but I'm too tired to think. Perhaps 'memes'?

Drakevarg
2010-01-22, 12:59 AM
*goes to look up "random gaping hole" on TVTropes*

Be back later.

absolmorph
2010-01-22, 01:04 AM
It's enough to make the random gaping hole a star wars trope. But with a reactor at the bottom? Nah.
Technically, Mace Windu Samuel L. Jackson fell down into a canyon-thing (tall city is tall), not a hole.
This is all kinda tangential to the actual thread, though.

Thrawn183
2010-01-22, 01:05 AM
My problem with the Blackguard has always been that it isn't all that decent on it's on in melee. I'd love to have the Blackguard just crushing people 1 on 1, but with it's reliance on sneak attack, it's just not so easy to pull off that way.

PhoenixRivers
2010-01-22, 01:09 AM
My problem with the Blackguard has always been that it isn't all that decent on it's on in melee. I'd love to have the Blackguard just crushing people 1 on 1, but with it's reliance on sneak attack, it's just not so easy to pull off that way.

Because it wasn't meant to portray the stronger warrior.

It was meant to portray a warrior no longer shackled by morality or fair play.

It was meant to portray the Skar's (Lion King)...

They may not be able to match the prowess of the other guy... But they're not opposed to dirt in the eye, exploiting a weakness, and the like.

In short, if you're looking at Blackguard as the PrC that Sauron took, you're mistaken. Not everyone in Black Armor gets blackguard.

Teron
2010-01-22, 01:11 AM
How many people get thrown into big holes in your Star Wars movies, books, comics, games?

New HOpe: Luke+Leia tarzan their way across one in the Death star
Luke shoots a torpedo into one.

Empire strikes back: Luke falls into a hole and ends up hanging from bottom of Cloud City.

Return of Jedi: Lando and Wedge fly ships into the second Death star to shoot it.
Darth throws the Emperor into a hole.

Prequel 1: Maul gets cut in half and falls into obscenely deep hole that seems to serve no purpose beyond letting Obi wan look like he's in trouble, and giving Maul a semi cool death.
Prequel 2: ?
Prequel 3: Samuel L Jackson falls out of a window...
What else in the movies? Haven't seen them or read the books (all of 'em) in years.
You forgot the Great Pit of Carkoon. Boba Fett falls in.

There's also the rancor pit in Jabba's palace, although it's more of a basement with a chute leading to it.

MlleRouge
2010-01-22, 01:36 AM
Fochluchan Lyricist seems pretty out of line to me...Evasion?

Maybe I'm just missing something.



And it's a common houserule in my group to omit any dodge/mobility prerequisites for nearly *anything*

Thurbane
2010-01-22, 01:37 AM
My questions to the Playground are thusly: what is the point of these prerequisites, and what other PrCs have you seen with prerequisites that have little to nothing to do with the class themselves?
My guess would be to make it a little harder to qualify for the class, and keep some of it's "prestige" for people willing to pay the cost. Like a lot of design concepts, it probably seems a lot better in the designers head than at the gaming table.

...also, I refer you to my humble [3.5] Craft or Profession prereq list (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=137313). Nothing screams "blowing precious skill points" like ranks in Craft or Profession (except, of course, ranks in Perform). :smallbiggrin:

Drakevarg
2010-01-22, 01:40 AM
Because it wasn't meant to portray the stronger warrior.

It was meant to portray a warrior no longer shackled by morality or fair play.

It was meant to portray the Skar's (Lion King)...

They may not be able to match the prowess of the other guy... But they're not opposed to dirt in the eye, exploiting a weakness, and the like.

In short, if you're looking at Blackguard as the PrC that Sauron took, you're mistaken. Not everyone in Black Armor gets blackguard.

It doesn't help that their picture displays a walking Black Knight archetype. You don't expect a guy in black full plate standing over the bodies of his foes yelling triumphantly to have done that via cowardly acts. You expected him to do it by being badass.

So when you conjure images of "Evil Paladin," don't be suprised when people are expecting evil paladins... that is, Paladins, but EVIL. Instead of Paladins... but cowardly dirtbags.

Thurbane
2010-01-22, 01:45 AM
It doesn't help that their picture displays a walking Black Knight archetype. You don't expect a guy in black full plate standing over the bodies of his foes yelling triumphantly to have done that via cowardly acts. You expected him to do it by being badass.

So when you conjure images of "Evil Paladin," don't be suprised when people are expecting evil paladins... that is, Paladins, but EVIL. Instead of Paladins... but cowardly dirtbags.
You Sir, have inspired me. I'm going to homebrew a new version of Blackguard that is more in line with the classical definition. :smallsmile:

arguskos
2010-01-22, 01:46 AM
You Sir, have inspired me. I'm going to homebrew a new version of Blackguard that is more in line with the classical definition. :smallsmile:
You're going to post it here, right? Cause that'd be awesome.

Drakevarg
2010-01-22, 01:46 AM
*unnessicarily dramatic thumbs up*

Thurbane
2010-01-22, 01:48 AM
I can certainly post it here...but I want to do it justice. Give me a few days...I've got a 4 day weekend coming up, so I'll be all over it. :smallwink:

arguskos
2010-01-22, 01:48 AM
I can certainly post it here...but I want to do it justice. Give me a few days...I've got a 4 day weekend coming up, so I'll be all over it. :smallwink:
Imma holdin' you to that. :smallwink:

It'll be good to see too. Blackguard really needs some love.

Sinfire Titan
2010-01-22, 02:06 AM
It's enough to make the random gaping hole a star wars trope something. But with a reactor at the bottom? Nah.
edit: (added lineout)
If there is a 'random gaping hole' entry on TV Tropes, I'll be amazed. Perhaps trope was a poor choice of word, but I'm too tired to think. Perhaps 'memes'?

They call it a Disney Villian Death.

Drakevarg
2010-01-22, 02:08 AM
Disney Villian Death (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DisneyVillainDeath)
Bottomless Pits (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BottomlessPits)
The Apple Falls Far (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheAppleFallsFar)
No OSHA Compliance (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/NoOSHACompliance)

All qualify.

Twilight Jack
2010-01-22, 02:28 AM
Fochluchan Lyricist seems pretty out of line to me...Evasion?

Maybe I'm just missing something.

And it's a common houserule in my group to omit any dodge/mobility prerequisites for nearly *anything*

The Fochlucan Lyrist is a meta throwback to 1st edition AD&D, in which Bard was a special form of multiclass character. In order to become a Bard, you needed to start as a Fighter and advance to level 5, dual-class into Thief and advance to level 5 in that, then take a level in Druid to complete the cycle. Congratulations, you're now a Bard, the most powerful frickin' class in the game, and can do any damn thing you want!

The Fochlucan Lyrist is a reverent nod to the weird old days. The prerequisites are specifically designed so that the easiest method of entry is levels in Rogue, Druid, and Bard (instead of Fighter, since the basic Bard is now a core class). That's why Evasion is there. It helps ensure the requisite Rogue levels.

To be honest, Fochlucan Lyrist is probably my favorite prestige class ever, just because I love metareferences like this. It's an incredibly flavorful and powerful class with difficult prerequisites that make it feel like an actual accomplishment when you take that first level, just like the old Bard class used to feel.

I've actually been toying about with alternate paths to get into the class, but I'm coming up a tad short. I really want to find a way to transition a Ranger 9 into it with adequate time to earn at least 7 levels of it before epic play, but I haven't hit on the trick yet.

Sstoopidtallkid
2010-01-22, 02:36 AM
That's why Evasion is there. It helps ensure the requisite Rogue levels.Or ownership of a Ring.

Twilight Jack
2010-01-22, 02:40 AM
Or ownership of a Ring.

Yeah, well. . . :smallredface:

You could also manage it with Monk or even Ranger (my current obsession).

I didn't say it was a perfect set of prerequisites. I will say, however, that the quality of my mercy is seriously strained when PCs in my games start using magic items to qualify themselves for prestige classes. Using a ring of evasion to get into Fochlucan Lyrist without earning Evasion as a class feature? Sounds like a good way to lose a finger. :smallwink:

Kantolin
2010-01-22, 02:42 AM
It's designed for Mindflayers, which are aberrations, and hence covered under Dungeoneering. They're also covered under Psionics, but that doesn't negate the previous. Mostly, it's just a quick rewrite to cover the fact that mindflayers are not SRD.

Hey, the SRD version of that class is generally pretty amusing if you really look at it. I mean... if you /do/ decide you hate blues, and go in hating blues, and a blue murders you in your sleep, then as part of enjoying his victory over you tries to eat your brain with a fork and knife...

...he must make a save or be nauseated!

Take that, undeserving level adjustment+1 monster!

Soranar
2010-01-22, 04:11 AM
as far as I know using a magic item which grants non-permanent (goes away if you don't wear it , as opposed to Tomes) doesn't make you meet prerequisites for a class


Blackguard (revised homebrew)

Levels 10 (10 epics)
BAB: fighter
Hit Die: d12
Saves: High Will, High Fort, low Ref

Requirements

alignment: any evil
Base attack bonus +6
Skills: Intimidate 5, knowledge (religion) 2
Feats: Power Attack, Cleave, Reckless Charge

special

Character must make peaceful contact with an evil outsider who was summoned by him or someone else

Skills Skill Points at Each Level 2 + Int modifier.

The blackguard’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Handle Animal (Cha), Heal (Wis), Hide (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (religion) (Int), Profession (Wis), and Ride (Dex)

Weapon and Armor Proficiency

Blackguards are proficient with all simple and martial weapons, with all types of armor, and with shields.

Aura of Evil (Ex)

The power of a blackguard’s aura of evil (see the detect evil spell) is equal to his class level plus his cleric level, if any.

Detect Good (Sp)

At will, a blackguard can use detect good as a spell-like ability, duplicating the effect of the detect good spell.

Dark Blessing (Su)

A blackguard applies his Charisma modifier (if positive) as a bonus on all saving throws.

Smite Good (Su)

Once a day, a blackguard of 2nd level or higher may attempt to smite good with one normal melee attack.

He adds his Charisma modifier (if positive) to his attack roll and deals 1 extra point of damage per class level. If a blackguard accidentally smites a creature that is not good, the smite has no effect but it is still used up for that day.

At 5th level, and again at 10th level, a blackguard may smite good one additional time per day.

Aura of Despair (Su)

Beginning at 3rd level, the blackguard radiates a malign aura that causes enemies within 10 feet of him to take a -2 penalty on all saving throws.

Command Undead (Su)

When a blackguard reaches 3rd level, he gains the supernatural ability to command and rebuke undead. He commands undead as would a cleric of two levels lower.

Bloodrage (ex)

When a blackguard or his Fiendish Servant kills a living creature with an Intelligence of 3 or higher with a melee attack, you gain a +2 Morale bonus on attack rolls, damage rolls, and saving throws for the rest of the encounter.If he, or his Fiendish Servant, kills such a creature with a Coup de Grace, the bonus is +4.

Whenever a blackguard is in a Bloodrage, his fiendish servant shares the effect.

You may enter a rage as a free action whenever you Bloodrage

Fiendish Rage

Whenever a Blackguard enters a rage , his Fiendish Servant may share the effect

Progression
1 Aura of evil, detect good, rage 1/day(as barbarian, progression stacks)
2 Dark blessing, smite good 1/day
3 Command undead, aura of despair
4 rage 2/day
5 Fiendish servant, smite good 2/day
6
7 bonus feat (as fighter)
8 rage 3/day
9 Fiendish Rage
10 smite good 3/day, Bloodrage

fiendish servant is unchanged

Calenestel
2010-01-22, 04:18 AM
I would actually say that Sneak Attack DOES make sense to begin with though.

Let's not get hung up on the NAME of the ability but on how it is described: as a knowledge of where to hit your enemy to hurt him/her the most. This can be done by sneakiness (a former Rogue gone Blackguard) or by simply taking a chance when your already engaged enemy gets flanked by an ally (a former Paladin or other). It's still sneak attack, but it's hardly cowardly. You're just taking advantage of the situation presented by someone else.'

What say you?

Aure Entuluva!
Calenestel

Attilargh
2010-01-22, 04:54 AM
See, the problem with that is that proper Blackguards don't have allies, they have minions. And to me at least, the mental image of a Blackguard keeping Toady McStormtrooper around just to get flanking bonuses is... Less than Darth Vader -grade awesome.

See, a big part of why Vader's so badass is that he's so confident in his mastery of the Dark Side that he goes out of his way to duel with worthy opponents instead of just dropping a TIE Bomber on them and shifting through the ashes with his evil-booted toe.

Calenestel
2010-01-22, 06:05 AM
All right, you've got at least half a point there. Taking minions along for the Sneak Attack is NOT stylish.
But I disagree with the notion that Blackguards do not have allies.

The most obvious example would be a PC Blackguard who rarely can use the rest of the party as minions (evil adventuring are hard but fun).

But even NPC Blackguards may have allies. A Blackguard serving as a lieutenant to evil Mastermind (ā la the Emperor, for example) may certainly have other lieutenants to compete as well as cooperate with.
And I do not think it so unlike Vader to enter temporary alliances as well, outside what would have been required by his master.

So I think my opinion still stands.

Aure Entuluva!
Calenestel

Eldariel
2010-01-22, 06:07 AM
Blackguard can enable his SA just fine with Invisibility though, a spell he can cast btw.

Omegonthesane
2010-01-22, 06:12 AM
Blackguard can enable his SA just fine with Invisibility though, a spell he can cast btw.

Also, feinting. Although it still doesn't explain why a friggin' plate fighter needs ranks in Hide.

Eldariel
2010-01-22, 06:21 AM
Also, feinting. Although it still doesn't explain why a friggin' plate fighter needs ranks in Hide.

Feinting though isn't something that comes by default with the class; you still need the feats separately picked and it still sucks. Invisibility tho, is something they get to cast automatically. And 'twas good.

Calenestel
2010-01-22, 06:22 AM
Also, feinting. Although it still doesn't explain why a friggin' plate fighter needs ranks in Hide.

THERE we are in agreement, though. The sneaky Blackguards will have ranks in it without the prerequisite anyway. ;)

Day shall come again!
Calle

PhoenixRivers
2010-01-22, 06:24 AM
It doesn't help that their picture displays a walking Black Knight archetype. You don't expect a guy in black full plate standing over the bodies of his foes yelling triumphantly to have done that via cowardly acts. You expected him to do it by being badass.

So when you conjure images of "Evil Paladin," don't be suprised when people are expecting evil paladins... that is, Paladins, but EVIL. Instead of Paladins... but cowardly dirtbags.

Sneak Attack doesn't equal "cowardly dirtbag".

It does equal misdirection, striking from the shadows, or with an ally, as appropriate.

Look at every massively badass champion of evil in fantasy. Did he:

(1) Turn down an advantage offered to him, in the form of distracting minions?

(2) Capitalize on the anguish or distraction of a good guy to run him through in particularly painful fashion?

Just because he's evil doesn't mean he has to be honorable. Fair play? Why, wounded enemies are easier to finish off. If I can engage the resistance with overwhelming force, what reason is there to not do so?

In other words? He may be a badass. He doesn't have a moral obligation to demonstrate it with fair play in matched combat. Barring the megalomania that kills all movie villains, he has no reason to, either.

In other words: The villain may believe that he has every advantage... But why not take more?

Sneak attack represents taking advantage of lowered defenses to stabbity worse. That's in keeping with a black knight.

Runestar
2010-01-22, 06:30 AM
Sneak Attack doesn't equal "cowardly dirtbag".

True, especially when there is nothing in the rules prohibiting a multiclass rogue/paladin from dealing SA damage.

Kish
2010-01-22, 06:37 AM
I recall reading that if you wanted to become a Blackguard, you needed to spend 2 feats and 2 dozen skill points or so on things that a paladin would virtually never spend feats and skill points on. So... you need to plan to fall.
Fall? I don't understand. Why would a fighter/rogue/blackguard need to worry about whether a paladin would take particular feats and skills?

(Yes, I get that you're saying the blackguard prerequisites go against the meme that every blackguard is a fallen paladin and every fallen paladin is a blackguard. To that I say, Hooray. Blackguards who are fallen paladins should be a tiny minority, both among fallen paladins [who should, for the most part, be Lawful Neutral, Neutral Good, or still Lawful Good, just not quite good enough] and among blackguards [most of whom should have been evil for the entirety of their adventuring careers, just as paladins don't generally start out evil and become Lawful Good right before multiclassing to paladin].)

Attilargh
2010-01-22, 06:49 AM
Look at every massively badass champion of evil in fantasy. Did he:

(1) Turn down an advantage offered to him, in the form of distracting minions?
Yyyep. All the friggin' time. Many tend to actively chase their minions away when they join the battle, and I honestly can't remember any who'd outright gang up on foes on a regular basis. (Not any whose dress code is "black plate and spikes", at least.) That's just uncool and not badass at all.

I do admit that there are many cases of awesome bad guys attacking unexpectedly, running a distracted foe through in the most dramatic, painful way possible, but that's not how Sneak Attack works in D&D. In D&D, you're "doin it rong" if you have SA and are not dogpiling on the enemies.

Runestar
2010-01-22, 06:52 AM
One interpretation of the paladin's ability to trade in lvs for blackguard is that this would allow you to circumvent the prerequisites of the prc. For instance, a paladin11 could immediately become a paladin1/blackguard10 (without needing to take the required feats or skill points).

Not sure how RAW it is though.

Kish
2010-01-22, 06:53 AM
Yyyep. All the friggin' time.
You know what else is all the friggin' time for champions of evil in fantasy? Losing. :smalltongue:

Also, does Buffy the Vampire Slayer count? "This isn't a spectator sport!"

Jarveiyan
2010-01-22, 07:08 AM
One interpretation of the paladin's ability to trade in lvs for blackguard is that this would allow you to circumvent the prerequisites of the prc. For instance, a paladin11 could immediately become a paladin1/blackguard10 (without needing to take the required feats or skill points).

Not sure how RAW it is though.

Iirc when you trade in levels you still have to keep enough non Prc levels to have had the prereqs for the Prc, so if you didn't have the prereqs till 9 th lvl you have to have 9 levels of pally still left after trading in levels.

Attilargh
2010-01-22, 07:10 AM
You know what else is all the friggin' time for champions of evil in fantasy? Losing. :smalltongue:
Well, it's not as if the Evil Overlord would seek to be the "quintessential black knight" anyway. :smalltongue: At least to me that implies a willingness to wear impractically spiky black armour and to growl immeasurably cheesy lines in an effort to truly flaunt your evilness. Maybe it's just me, but the class writeup and associated illustartion both scream just the sort of megalomania that leads to the bad guys getting their butts kicked.

Runestar
2010-01-22, 07:19 AM
At least to me that implies a willingness to wear impractically spiky black armour and to growl immeasurably cheesy lines in an effort to truly flaunt your evilness.

Hey, Sauron did that, didn't he? At least for the black armour bit. :smalltongue:

Kaiyanwang
2010-01-22, 07:27 AM
Blackguard is not so powerful but fits the concept perfectly. Is the heavy armoured, strong arm knight (power attack, sunder) but is a dirty bastard too:

Sneak attacks, poison use, and a debuffing aura (that can be played like sort of a psycological pressure, a disturbing presence and so on).

Moreover, in addition to things said abov, IIRC, you can have 2 pets if fallen paladin: that way, you have a lot of chances to flank and so deliver the SA.

I don't rememeber if can be done pre epic or out of gestalt for the amount of feats and SA dice required, but try to make the BG gain lacerate, an ambush feat from Dragon Magazine. It disables legs and arms of the target (one each strike).

is very good for climatic situations where the BBEG mutilates and torture the good guys before execute them, and can be scary for the PC: just remember to laugh to them when you do it.

(No, don't do the last thing: is not nice and you'll lose the Pizza).

If ther's space, throw in swift acion poison use (master of Poison IIRC) from DoTU.

Optimystik
2010-01-22, 07:48 AM
Blood Magus: too squicky to be LG? That's awfully specific.

The entry feats are also poor (though you do get Scribe Scroll and Brew Potion for free shortly into the class, without losing caster levels.)

You also have to die, which is a bit of a downer.

2xMachina
2010-01-22, 08:33 AM
Invisible Blade

Far Shot and Point Blank Shot.

hamishspence
2010-01-22, 08:39 AM
Blood Magus: too squicky to be LG? That's awfully specific.

Rogues (Thieves?) in 2nd ed had the same rule- couldn't be Lawful Good- but could be any other alignment.

Zaq
2010-01-22, 08:40 AM
You Sir, have inspired me. I'm going to homebrew a new version of Blackguard that is more in line with the classical definition. :smallsmile:

By "classical definition" do you mean "kitchen servant," or "one who uses foul language?"



Main Entry: 1blackˇguard
Pronunciation: \ˈbla-gərd, -ˌgärd; ˈblak-ˌgärd\
Function: noun
Date: 1535

1 obsolete : the kitchen servants of a household
2 a : a rude or unscrupulous person b : a person who uses foul or abusive language

(Fun fact: While "black guard" is one of the pronunciations listed, the primary way of pronouncing it is to have it rhyme with "haggard." The more you know!)

Runestar
2010-01-22, 08:41 AM
Invisible Blade

Far Shot and Point Blank Shot.

To be fair, there is a rationale explanation behind that.

http://www.enworld.org/forum/d-d-3rd-edition-rules/237687-invisible-blade.html

hamishspence
2010-01-22, 08:43 AM
(Fun fact: While "black guard" is one of the pronunciations listed, the primary way of pronouncing it is to have it rhyme with "haggard." The more you know!)

I've seen it spelled the way it's pronounced, as well: "blaggard" in some novels.

magic9mushroom
2010-01-22, 08:57 AM
This is just a small part of why Paladin of Slaughter/Tyranny makes a better Blackguard than the Blackguard does.

Paladin of Slaughter is also unplayable as a PC, because if you deviate from Stupid Evil at any time, you fall. It specifically says that you must sow death and destruction at all opportunities, are not permitted to associate with good characters for any reason, and must actively disrespect any authority unless it's proven its physical superiority to you.

Paladin of Tyranny is much less ridiculous (allowing you to associate with good characters if it serves your own ends, and so on) and does indeed work well for a Darth Vader type.

You've still got the problem of "fall if ever commit a good act", though.


Blood Magus: too squicky to be LG? That's awfully specific.

The entry feats are also poor (though you do get Scribe Scroll and Brew Potion for free shortly into the class, without losing caster levels.)

You also have to die, which is a bit of a downer.

This, so much this.

Assassins' evil alignment req.
Ur-Priests' as well, to an extent - there's the obvious Illidan Stormrage type CN character.
Apostle of Peace's Vow of Poverty and Vow of Peace.

Optimystik
2010-01-22, 09:03 AM
Vow of Peace at least makes sense for AoP, for all that the feat itself is a giant heaping sack of irritation for any D&D group.

(4e thankfully fixed AoP with the Messenger of Peace paragon path.)

I agree on Vow of Poverty however - it has no real reason to be part of the class, and is even directly contradicted later in the class description.

I wonder how an optimized AoP would measure up against an optimized Ur-Priest, if the VoP benefits were allowed to stack with defensive magic items? That would be an interesting battle.

magic9mushroom
2010-01-22, 09:51 AM
Vow of Peace at least makes sense for AoP, for all that the feat itself is a giant heaping sack of irritation for any D&D group.

(4e thankfully fixed AoP with the Messenger of Peace paragon path.)

I agree on Vow of Poverty however - it has no real reason to be part of the class, and is even directly contradicted later in the class description.

I wonder how an optimized AoP would measure up against an optimized Ur-Priest, if the VoP benefits were allowed to stack with defensive magic items? That would be an interesting battle.

Well, the optimised Ur-Priest can do eeeeeevil stuff like setting up a pain- and soul-harvesting centre to get cheaper magic items (unfortunately no sacrificing for obvious reasons). There's also the fact that if an AoP breaches either Vow of Poverty or Vow of Peace at any time (and since accidental or forced breaches count, this is ridiculously easy for the Ur-Priest to set up, say by dominating an insect to crawl into his mouth) he loses his entire casting until he can get an atonement. Those are the big problems the AoP has, and I don't really see any corresponding huge weaknesses for the Ur-Priest.

PhoenixRivers
2010-01-22, 09:51 AM
Yyyep. All the friggin' time. Many tend to actively chase their minions away when they join the battle, and I honestly can't remember any who'd outright gang up on foes on a regular basis. (Not any whose dress code is "black plate and spikes", at least.) That's just uncool and not badass at all.

I do admit that there are many cases of awesome bad guys attacking unexpectedly, running a distracted foe through in the most dramatic, painful way possible, but that's not how Sneak Attack works in D&D. In D&D, you're "doin it rong" if you have SA and are not dogpiling on the enemies.

As opposed to running them through when they move to cover someone else...
Or feinting them out.

You're confusing Black Knights with Sauron. You've got this image in your head that the moment someone spray paints their armor black, they should be raised to deific levels of power.

Even the evil badasses, barring suicidal megalomania, relish a fair fight about as much as getting a root canal.

See, the alignment you're describing? Is Chaotic Stupid, at it's finest. This isn't to say you're stupid, or the view is. Only that the villain you describe fails the evil overlord handbook in about a billion ways.

This makes him less badass, and more speedbump.

magic9mushroom
2010-01-22, 10:02 AM
Addendum to my previous post.

Way for AoP to kill UP: Inform the churches of his activity. They'll attack him. They'll probably get slaughtered. Then the deities will get involved and crush him utterly.

The reason I say they'll probably get slaughtered is that I've been doing a bit of theorycrafting lately and I'm fairly certain the following build is legal:

Wizard 5/Tainted Scholar 2/Earth Dreamer 1/Ur-Priest 1/Mystic Theurge 9/X 2

(Yes, you need Able Learner and Alternative Source Spell to pull this off)

Which is ungodly scary.

Omegonthesane
2010-01-22, 10:05 AM
Addendum to my previous post.

Way for AoP to kill UP: Inform the churches of his activity. They'll attack him. They'll probably get slaughtered. Then the deities will get involved and crush him utterly.

Or Sanctify the Wicked, followed by protecting the resulting orb for a year. UP now has no spellcasting because he stopped being Evil, and has LA +2 too IIRC.

magic9mushroom
2010-01-22, 10:15 AM
Or Sanctify the Wicked, followed by protecting the resulting orb for a year. UP now has no spellcasting because he stopped being Evil, and has LA +2 too IIRC.

Sanctify the Wicked has a save, and one that's significantly easier than what a Tainted Ur-Theurge can chuck around (also, hello Clarity of True Madness). Far, FAR harder than making an AoP fall.

Sinfire Titan
2010-01-22, 10:22 AM
Blood Magus: too squicky to be LG? That's awfully specific.

The entry feats are also poor (though you do get Scribe Scroll and Brew Potion for free shortly into the class, without losing caster levels.)

You also have to die, which is a bit of a downer.

I replace the dying part with the requirements of one of the PrCs in Heroes of Horror (must have been reduced to -1 or lower and survived).

Optimystik
2010-01-22, 10:39 AM
Well, the optimised Ur-Priest can do eeeeeevil stuff like setting up a pain- and soul-harvesting centre to get cheaper magic items (unfortunately no sacrificing for obvious reasons). There's also the fact that if an AoP breaches either Vow of Poverty or Vow of Peace at any time (and since accidental or forced breaches count, this is ridiculously easy for the Ur-Priest to set up, say by dominating an insect to crawl into his mouth) he loses his entire casting until he can get an atonement. Those are the big problems the AoP has, and I don't really see any corresponding huge weaknesses for the Ur-Priest.

I agree that the UP enforcing a breach of vows could be a problem, but lets assume a competent AoP who can keep himself warded from dominated bugs and other such skulduggery. Who has the advantage?

The Ur-Priest can steal spell-like abilities from any Outsider he can get his hands on, and has a much larger list of spells than an Apostle. The Apostle, on the other hand, will have massive stats due to his Vows and items. (IIRC, the Vows confer a Sacred or Perfection bonus, which should stack with everything else.)

So you've got more spells and the ability to attack, vs. massive stats and powerful defenses. Who would win?


Way for AoP to kill UP: Inform the churches of his activity. They'll attack him. They'll probably get slaughtered. Then the deities will get involved and crush him utterly.

Knowingly sending the churches after him to do his dirty work, would likely make the AoP fall - unless he was sure they would only attempt to apprehend and not kill him.

Tyndmyr
2010-01-22, 10:43 AM
So you've got more spells and the ability to attack, vs. massive stats and powerful defenses. Who would win?

The attacker. Attacker advantage is huge...and besides, the AoP has to win every time. The Ur-Priest only has to win one time.

Optimystik
2010-01-22, 10:46 AM
The attacker. Attacker advantage is huge...and besides, the AoP has to win every time. The Ur-Priest only has to win one time.

Now you sound like L - "He who strikes first wins," and all that. :smalltongue:

Attilargh
2010-01-22, 11:00 AM
As opposed to running them through when they move to cover someone else...
Or feinting them out.
Neither of which are much of a sustainable approach to combat, which is kinda my point. Not seeking flanking positions ("dogpiling") as a Blackguard is pretty much the equivalent of wielding a crossbow as a Barbarian: Sure, you can do it and at lower class levels it's not that critical an error, but you're still missing out on a fairly important class feature.


Only that the villain you describe fails the evil overlord handbook in about a billion ways.
Beginning with spray-painting their armour black. (#29: "I will dress in bright and cheery colors, and so throw my enemies into confusion." :smalltongue: ) But as I posted above, my image of a black knight is a guy much that of anyone who has ever ridden through a fantasy world, wearing spiky black armour and waving a bloody sword: Villainous and proud of it. (Also dead by the final chapter, and rarely the Big Bad of the story.)

Also, I have to point out that I've never claimed they would stoop to anything as honourable as fighting fair. There's a big difference between fighting fair and indulging a duel to flaunt your villainy. The latter usually involves poison, hostages, preliminary beatings, traps and other associated nastiness. (The most awesome of bad guys of course manage without, but hey, a man's gotta do what a man's gotta do.)

Out of curiousity, could you give me some examples of black knights who fit your view of the class?

Sinfire Titan
2010-01-22, 11:06 AM
I agree that the UP enforcing a breach of vows could be a problem, but lets assume a competent AoP who can keep himself warded from dominated bugs and other such skulduggery. Who has the advantage?

The Ur-Priest can steal spell-like abilities from any Outsider he can get his hands on, and has a much larger list of spells than an Apostle. The Apostle, on the other hand, will have massive stats due to his Vows and items. (IIRC, the Vows confer a Sacred or Perfection bonus, which should stack with everything else.)

So you've got more spells and the ability to attack, vs. massive stats and powerful defenses. Who would win?

The stat bonuses from VoP are not worth as much as a WBL, even with AoP's benefits. The ability score bonuses from VoP are all enhancement, BTW. The AC bonus is Exalted, but doesn't stack with armor.

The Ur-Priest still has an advantage in spell access (seriously). Even if the AoP PrCs to get Domains, his Vow restrictions and the limited number of domains that can help him still puts him beneath the UP. All the UP needs to do is worship Setrous (SIC) and he can get every domain in existence.

9mm
2010-01-22, 11:16 AM
please explain to me why Reaping Mauler requires a feat for getting OUT of grapples...

deuxhero
2010-01-22, 11:18 AM
All right, you've got at least half a point there. Taking minions along for the Sneak Attack is NOT stylish.
But I disagree with the notion that Blackguards do not have allies.

The most obvious example would be a PC Blackguard who rarely can use the rest of the party as minions (evil adventuring are hard but fun).

But even NPC Blackguards may have allies. A Blackguard serving as a lieutenant to evil Mastermind (ā la the Emperor, for example) may certainly have other lieutenants to compete as well as cooperate with.
And I do not think it so unlike Vader to enter temporary alliances as well, outside what would have been required by his master.

So I think my opinion still stands.

Aure Entuluva!
Calenestel

except you know, they get a class feature that gives them an ally.

Nate the Snake
2010-01-22, 02:42 PM
Champion of Correllon Larethian requires Mounted Combat (while offering nothing to further mounted combat), as well as just generally having a lot of prerequisites that have nothing to do with one another.

I heard about another Corellon-themed PrC that:
-required Weapon Finesse,
-had class features that only functioned while wielding a longsword,
-did not grant the ability to use Weapon Finesse with the longsword. (:smallconfused:)

It's almost a trend.


I've actually been toying about with alternate paths to get into the class, but I'm coming up a tad short. I really want to find a way to transition a Ranger 9 into it with adequate time to earn at least 7 levels of it before epic play, but I haven't hit on the trick yet.

My favorite alternate entry is Rogue 1/Druid 1/Wizard 5/Loredelver 3/Fochlucan Lyrist 10.


One interpretation of the paladin's ability to trade in lvs for blackguard is that this would allow you to circumvent the prerequisites of the prc. For instance, a paladin11 could immediately become a paladin1/blackguard10 (without needing to take the required feats or skill points).

Not sure how RAW it is though.

That does actually make a lot of sense, especially if your DM subscribes to the "make the paladin fall" school of thought.


Iirc when you trade in levels you still have to keep enough non Prc levels to have had the prereqs for the Prc, so if you didn't have the prereqs till 9 th lvl you have to have 9 levels of pally still left after trading in levels.

This interpretation defeats the point of trading in levels. Retroactively turning Paladin levels into Blackguard levels doesn't change your feat choices and skill ranks, even if the build is technically impossible without level conversion.


please explain to me why Reaping Mauler requires a feat for getting OUT of grapples...

Because it's such a bad grappler that its only effective tactic is escaping the grapple. :smallyuk:

Reaping Mauler makes a little more sense if you houserule that it requires Improved Grapple as a prerequisite and grants Clever Wrestling a bonus feat, instead of the other way around.

Which doesn't change the fact that it didn't do this in the first place. :smallsigh:

Nai_Calus
2010-01-22, 03:28 PM
I heard about another Corellon-themed PrC that:
-required Weapon Finesse,
-had class features that only functioned while wielding a longsword,
-did not grant the ability to use Weapon Finesse with the longsword. (:smallconfused:)



Mystic Keeper of Corellon Larethian, a Cleric PrC from Dragon. Note that in addition to that stupid requirement, it was a 5/10 casting progressing PrC and the abilities were lame.

CoCL is pretty good, but yeah, the pre-reqs don't make any sense. It's the first thing I thought of, in fact, when I saw this thread.

Blackfang108
2010-01-22, 04:02 PM
How about the SRD version of the Illithid Slayer still having Knowledge (Dungeoneering) as its required skill despite the fact that psionic monsters--any one of which gets to be the Slayer's favored enemy--are actually covered under the Knowledge (Psionics) skill. A skill that isn't even on their class list. Guh.

Illithids are (Abberation) also. Abberations are covered by Dungeoneering.

They're ALSO (psionic), so Knowledge(Psionics) ALSO covers them.

EDIT: How about Tempest: Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack? the last two of which allow for ONE attack in any round in which they're used, in a class that focuses on Two Weapon Fighting?

WTF? (Make sense)(please)?

Xenogears
2010-01-22, 04:12 PM
From Oriental Adventures, the Blade Dancer requires arcane or divine spells for no apparent reason.

So the fact that he gains a limited ability to temporarily enchant his weapons doesn't fit with having casting? I mean it kinda sucks as a PreReq but it does make sense.

Irreverent Fool
2010-01-22, 04:18 PM
Which would make total sense if they got a mount as a class feature... which they don't. Instead they throw in the prerequisite as fluff that you are in no way obligated to use, and indeed if I ever took the class, I wouldn't. Not a fan of mounts.

I mean, if it was a fluff thing, just make Ride a class skill, not a necessity to take the class. :smallannoyed:

I'm an English major and yet am required to have math credits.

How about Toughness as a prereq? Three more hitpoints somehow makes a 5th-level character more apt for a given PrC?

Also, warweavers. A PrC you can get into by taking ranks in Craft (basketweaving)...

obnoxious
sig

Sstoopidtallkid
2010-01-22, 05:39 PM
I didn't say it was a perfect set of prerequisites. I will say, however, that the quality of my mercy is seriously strained when PCs in my games start using magic items to qualify themselves for prestige classes. Using a ring of evasion to get into Fochlucan Lyrist without earning Evasion as a class feature? Sounds like a good way to lose a finger. :smallwink:
as far as I know using a magic item which grants non-permanent (goes away if you don't wear it , as opposed to Tomes) doesn't make you meet prerequisites for a class.I'm pretty sure non-permanent means of qualifying do still allow you to qualify. This is implied in the CWar and CMage rules on losing PrCs if you lose the prerequisites(and part of what makes the Reaping Mauler suck so much). And if a PC is willing to devote gold and an item slot to qualifying, let him. It's not exactly a broken class, other than the prerequisites sucking.

Foryn Gilnith
2010-01-22, 05:40 PM
I'm an English major and yet am required to have math credits.

This seems like a useful answer to some of these questions (though not all of them). Why do you need to have these prerequisites? Because the prestige class is tied to an organization and they demand you have these unrelated skills. Because people are illogical.

drengnikrafe
2010-01-22, 06:37 PM
I'm pretty sure non-permanent means of qualifying do still allow you to qualify. This is implied in the CWar and CMage rules on losing PrCs if you lose the prerequisites(and part of what makes the Reaping Mauler suck so much). And if a PC is willing to devote gold and an item slot to qualifying, let him. It's not exactly a broken class, other than the prerequisites sucking.

I would agree with this based on the sheer number of debates I've heard about the Dragon Deciple losing it's ability to be in it's own prestige class due to it's capstone ability. Also, based on the fact that, if you have the item, you are capable of doing it.
Let's say that, for no appearent reason, you need evasion to get into PrC X, based on that the trainer will only train you if you can evade some random attack. How does the trainer know the difference between if you learned it yourself versus if you know it because of a ring? You dodged the magic attack all the same.

Xenogears
2010-01-22, 07:19 PM
I would agree with this based on the sheer number of debates I've heard about the Dragon Deciple losing it's ability to be in it's own prestige class due to it's capstone ability. Also, based on the fact that, if you have the item, you are capable of doing it.
Let's say that, for no appearent reason, you need evasion to get into PrC X, based on that the trainer will only train you if you can evade some random attack. How does the trainer know the difference between if you learned it yourself versus if you know it because of a ring? You dodged the magic attack all the same.

Thats why all of my secret organizations conduct testing naked.

Zaq
2010-01-24, 04:42 PM
How about Toughness as a prereq? Three more hitpoints somehow makes a 5th-level character more apt for a given PrC?

It's not THAT weak. What's wrong with having more Essentia?
Wait, people take Toughness instead of Azure Toughness? Really? You're joking.
I've always found it odd that Stormlord required Great Fortitude and Endurance. One or the other I can see as just a cost-of-entry feat, but getting in both (along with WF:Javelin, which actually makes sense) is less than fun. It's not like the class is especially powerful, aside from being a 10/10 casting class... but the class features don't really synergize much with casting, so with three dead feats as an entry requirement, it's hardly worth using.

Aquillion
2010-01-24, 04:47 PM
A Paladin that eventually becomes a Backsabbing Blackguard? Yes.

The way I see it, Rogues and scoundrel type characters going into Blackguard would be a more common occurrence. The epitome of good suddenly falling from grace and becoming the epitome of evil, even if iconic, would be a much, much rarer occurrence.
The real problem with it is that, unless you have your character plan to fall in advance (which isn't totally impossible -- you can be a borderline Paladin for a while before falling -- but which probably shouldn't be the only option), you're left playing a severely weakened character for several levels, with a lot of your existing levels dead.

That's not good design. I mean, sure, maybe you could come up with a fluff reason, but it's still no fun.

Starbuck_II
2010-01-24, 04:48 PM
please explain to me why Reaping Mauler requires a feat for getting OUT of grapples...

Because you have to enter Leviathan Hunter first silly. No really, doing that will make Reaping Mauler a decent class.

Fitz10019
2010-01-24, 06:16 PM
DragMag#314 has Master of the North Wind. It is for Druid-Monks, sort of advancing some of both's class features. One prereq is the ability to shapeshift into an animal that can fly. Another prereq is 7 ranks in Climb. You know, because everyone who anticipates flying will take ranks in climb.

Grumman
2010-01-24, 06:28 PM
DragMag#314 has Master of the North Wind. It is for Druid-Monks, sort of advancing some of both's class features. One prereq is the ability to shapeshift into an animal that can fly. Another prereq is 7 ranks in Climb. You know, because everyone who anticipates flying will take ranks in climb.
I'd assume the idea is that until you can fly, you're not going to just sit on the ground sulking.

Runestar
2010-01-24, 09:56 PM
DragMag#314 has Master of the North Wind. It is for Druid-Monks, sort of advancing some of both's class features. One prereq is the ability to shapeshift into an animal that can fly. Another prereq is 7 ranks in Climb. You know, because everyone who anticipates flying will take ranks in climb.

The shapeshift ability seems redundant. If you can wildshape, you can wildshape into a flying creature.

Or am I missing something?

TheLogman
2010-01-24, 10:12 PM
Pfft...the Blood Magus requires you to die? The Risen Martyr class requires you to BE dead at the time you take it. Can you imagine how difficult it would be to organize your death in such a way that you level up just as you die? Also you can't kill yourself, it has to be fighting evil and such.

However...the most complex prestige class to get into, at least as far as I can find, is the Ardent Dilettante, from the Planar Handbook. He has 4 sets of requirements, one for first level, one for 4th level, one for 7th level, and one for 10 level.

To reach 10th level, you must have:

8 ranks in Preform
5 Ranks in any Strength based skill
5 Ranks in any Constitution based skill
5 Ranks in any Dexterity based skill
and 5 ranks in any Intelligence or Wisdom based skill

Proficiency with at least 4 martial weapons and at least one exotic weapon

Visited 6 different planes

Died and then been turned into an undead, or been raised to life

Grumman
2010-01-24, 10:34 PM
Pfft...the Blood Magus requires you to die? The Risen Martyr class requires you to BE dead at the time you take it. Can you imagine how difficult it would be to organize your death in such a way that you level up just as you die? Also you can't kill yourself, it has to be fighting evil and such.
Have you actually looked at the PrC? You don't need to level up as you die, you rise as a level 0 Risen Martyr.

Kish
2010-01-25, 05:39 AM
The real problem with it is that, unless you have your character plan to fall in advance (which isn't totally impossible -- you can be a borderline Paladin for a while before falling -- but which probably shouldn't be the only option), you're left playing a severely weakened character for several levels, with a lot of your existing levels dead.

That's not good design.
It's not good design that Falling (dramatically enough to become evil) is actually a bad thing for a paladin, even temporarily, rather than a quick route to greater power? We apparently have very different concepts of "bad design--"


I mean, sure, maybe you could come up with a fluff reason, but it's still no fun.
--and that makes me think I have a pretty good idea exactly where those concepts differ, too.

Calenestel
2010-01-25, 06:41 AM
It's not good design that Falling (dramatically enough to become evil) is actually a bad thing for a paladin, even temporarily, rather than a quick route to greater power? We apparently have very different concepts of "bad design--"

--and that makes me think I have a pretty good idea exactly where those concepts differ, too.


Seconded. You're my hero, Kish! :smallamused:

C

Omegonthesane
2010-01-25, 09:16 AM
It's not good design that Falling (dramatically enough to become evil) is actually a bad thing for a paladin, even temporarily, rather than a quick route to greater power? We apparently have very different concepts of "bad design--"

--and that makes me think I have a pretty good idea exactly where those concepts differ, too.

The way I see it, Falling all the way to Evil should be a quick way to great power - otherwise, how would a newly-fallen, despondent ex-Paladin be tempted to the dark side?

If that power happens to be better for the player than remaining a Paladin, then that's a problem with the Paladin and the campaign, not a problem with the Blackguard.