DnD Cosmology Question

[Lysander]

In your generic DnD setting is the material plane flat with an edge, flat and infinite, or a globe? What are the sun, stars, and the moon? A big relatively close fusion reaction, very distant fusion reactions, and a lump of rock? Or are they glowing deity chariots, sky nymphs, heroes placed in the heavens, what?

[Comet]

I've always been under the impression that the basic D&D Material works pretty much like our own. So, the earth is round and the planets and stars in space are...well, planets and stars.
Dunno if this is explained in any sourcebook.

[Shademan]

the players often insist on it being round. to which I tend to answer "says who? for all you know its square and filled with sandwiches." which, offcourse, it is. But they'll never find out.

[dsmiles]

I don't ever use the 'generic' or 'standard' DnD campaign world.

I tend to use the planar cosmology listed in the back of the AD&D 1e DMG. With a few other ideas thrown in...

The planet:
Globe-shaped prime material, size depends on which one of my campaign worlds I'm using (the smallest being Earth-sized).

The sun and stars:
The sun and stars are pretty standard "real-world" fusion reactions (sun is relatively close, stars are distant, you can spelljam to them, some of them have planets).

The moon:
The moons for 3 of my 5 campaign worlds are just like ours (lifeless, atmosphere-less rocks). One of the other campaign worlds, the moon is actually a similar-sized planet, inhabited by roughly the same races and classes as the main campaign world, which is locked in a (physics-impossible; magic-possible) dual orbit around the sun with the main campaign world. The last campaign world has two moons, a blue one (a smaller, habitable, but unoccupied by sentient creatures, water-dominant planet), and a silver one (lifeless rock-type).

Current Campaign World:
My current campaign world (4e) is a larger-than-earth planet with a sun, a lifeless rock moon, a 30 hour daylight cycle, and the calendar is divided up into 13, 30-day months (10-day weeks, so 3 weeks to a month), standard AD&D 1e planar cosmology, 9-point alignment system, and a higher-tech/lower-magic level than the 'standard' 4e world (I have guns and steam/clockwork powered tech).

[Dervag]

So... what happens if I wait for the longest day of summer and measure the shadows cast by two obelisks of equal height at points several hundred miles north and south of each other?

[Lappy9000]

In mine, the world was essentially a globe, but is now described akin to "an apple bitten twice in the sides." Split down the sides, there are two separate halves of the globe, and the broken segments pose an actual danger of sailing off the end of the world.

There's four moons, one of which may very well be the material form of a god. The actual planar cosmology takes the form of a tree, with the material world as the core, the infinite demi planes as leaves, and the ethereal void forming the trunk and connecting all other planes. Even got a diagram (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7474654#post7474654).

EDIT: Snaps, did you mean "your" as in personal custom settings, or just using it to describe the typical generic setting? Sorry if I misunderstood :smalleek:

[Shademan]

So... what happens if I wait for the longest day of summer and measure the shadows cast by two obelisks of equal height at points several hundred miles north and south of each other?

everything explodes. thats why there's a secret order of knights that kill ayone who tries

[Optimystik]

Both Manual of the Planes and the Planar Handbook suggest pretty strongly that the planes are planets, i.e. round. (There are various images of orreries in both books, including on their covers.)

There's an easy way to tell if your planet is round, even in quasi-medieval times. Simply observe a sailboat approaching the dock from far away - if you see the sails before the rest of the boat, your plane(t) has curvature.

[Lysander]

At low levels its unimportant, but at high levels players have plenty of ways of finding out. What if a wizard decides to hide his treasures on the moon? Can he greater teleport there after polymorphing into some vacuum resistant form? Can you open up a gate on another plane that has its material plane side in the sun, so you can toss objects or enemies directly through into the fire for destruction?

[Drakevarg]

Its both, and changes when you're not looking.

[Shademan]

At low levels its unimportant, but at high levels players have plenty of ways of finding out. What if a wizard decides to hide his treasures on the moon? Can he greater teleport there after polymorphing into some vacuum resistant form? Can you open up a gate on another plane that has its material plane side in the sun, so you can toss objects or enemies directly through into the fire for destruction?
The only wizard powerfull enough to go to the moon did so, he was surprised to see that it was not flat but round, and was populated by deja-vu bunnies. he then killed the bunnies because he was a lich and hated bunnies. then he went home.

He allready knew about the shape of the world. his explaination is that the gods found it easier to build

[dsmiles]

At low levels its unimportant, but at high levels players have plenty of ways of finding out. What if a wizard decides to hide his treasures on the moon?

Go ahead, hide them on the moon. Eventually, adventurers will still figure out a way to get at it.


Can he greater teleport there after polymorphing into some vacuum resistant form?

Yes, certain Far Realms monstrosities are vacuum-resistant, in my campaign worlds.


Can you open up a gate on another plane that has its material plane side in the sun, so you can toss objects or enemies directly through into the fire for destruction?

Not as such, but you could toss them into the elemental plane of puppies fire, I mean fire...yeah, that's it, fire. :smalleek:

[Lappy9000]

elemental plane of puppiesYOU HAVE ONE TOO?!?! I'm not crazy!

[Fhaolan]

The sun seen by mortals is actually a beacon on the top of the Tower of Lady Sun, the goddess of light and commerce. The moon is the fortress of the Watcher, the god of death, the threshold of which can be passed, but never recrossed (Once you 'die', it takes time for your spirit/soul to travel to the Moon, through the plane of Shadow, during that time you can be reincarnated, resurrected, etc. Once that time is up, you're dead-dead and cannot come back.)

The material plane is effectively flat, though Master Mountain, the god of Earth would probably disagree with that, and the edge of the material plane is mist which transitions you into the much larger plane of Faerie. The mist is... as far as mortals are concerned, mobile and difficult to map. The concept of fixed three-dimensional space is a bit limiting when dealing with planar geometry, and being able to deal with that problem is one of the many things separating gods from mortals. The 'flip side' of the material plane is the land of mirrors and reflections, the home of dopplegangers, boggles, and other unsavoury beasts.

[dsmiles]

The material plane is effectively flat, though Master Mountain, the god of Earth would probably disagree with that, and the edge of the material plane is mist which transitions you into the much larger plane of Faerie. The mist is... as far as mortals are concerned, mobile and difficult to map. The concept of fixed three-dimensional space is a bit limiting when dealing with planar geometry, and being able to deal with that problem is one of the many things separating gods from mortals. The 'flip side' of the material plane is the land of mirrors and reflections, the home of dopplegangers, boggles, and other unsavoury beasts.

Oooooooo...
Aaaahhhh...

I like that...:smallwink:

[bosssmiley]

In your generic DnD setting is the material plane flat with an edge, flat and infinite, or a globe? What are the sun, stars, and the moon? A big relatively close fusion reaction, very distant fusion reactions, and a lump of rock? Or are they glowing deity chariots, sky nymphs, heroes placed in the heavens, what?

Yes. To all the above. Wave and particle.

The cosmology shifts depending on the needs of the game in a wacky optical illusion (http://images.google.com/images?q=vase%20and%20faces%20illusion) mix of Spelljammer, Carnacki the Ghost-Finder and Runequest.

The sun is a giant ball of flaming gas, but it's also some blonde dude in a chariot being chased by ravening wolves.
The moon is a bizarre place where the ground glows and feral Clangers reign supreme, but it's also a scholar/jailer/protector godling warding the world against comets and keeping the hungry, destructive sea goddess in her appointed place.
The world is flat enough that you can sail off the edge or go and meet the giants who hold up the sky, but it also has curved horizons, Gygaxian 'slides to China', and a Hollow World deep within. Oh, and it's the gathered cloak of a sleeping earth deity who will one day awaken and cast it away (yeah, Dunsany).

It all works out so long as you don't think about it too hard... :smallwink:

[valadil]

Unknown. The PCs don't know and it doesn't occur to them to try and find out. I probably won't make a decision one way or the other until it actually matters in a game.

Now I'm wondering if telling them to solve this problem would be a good premise for a campaign...

[dsmiles]

Unknown. The PCs don't know and it doesn't occur to them to try and find out. I probably won't make a decision one way or the other until it actually matters in a game.

Now I'm wondering if telling them to solve this problem would be a good premise for a campaign...

It would give them all sorts of reasons to wander off into 'The Great Unknown.'

[Bibliomancer]

I was under the impression that in the generic setting the Material Plane is a planet among many planets, separated by magical wards that you can only bypass by spelljamming. This explains why there are an infinite number of mortals (to balance the infinite number of everything else), and why there's an Elder Evil which is a large asteroid that has destroyed many worlds and (if you're playing that arc) is headed towards your planet.

However, in Eberron, there's only one world, and it's definitely round (although maybe it wasn't before the dragons and artificers took over). The nature of the moons are undetermined.

[Devils_Advocate]

Every published setting that I'm aware of is a globe. Spelljammer is the only setting that I know of that addresses what sort of stuff you can find if you travel up into space. It doesn't seem to specifically be mythological fantasy nor science fiction so much as its own weird mix of various elements. Makes it pretty appropriate to D&D, really.

[SilverClawShift]

In your generic DnD setting is the material plane flat with an edge, flat and infinite, or a globe?

While I don't think any source suggests it specifically, there is an epic spell called "Nailed to the Sky" which ejects the target from the surface and launches them into a permanent orbit.

Orbit would suggest a globe, but since physics and magic aren't intertwined, you could easily be orbiting the edge of a disk after being nailed to the freaking sky.

For simplicities sake, it's generally better to assume that the world you're in mirrors the real world in terms of "What's going on", unless a specific exception is needed, at which point that specific exception will supersede reality.
The world is round, unless you need your players to sail off the edge of the world to continue the adventure. The sun is a giant nuclear ball several light-minutes away, until the big bad plucks it out of the sky like a coin and plunges the world into eternal night.

Wait, that'd be a great campaign plot...

[SilverClawShift]

Orbit would suggest a globe, but since physics and magic aren't intertwined, you could easily be orbiting the edge of a disk after being nailed to the freaking sky.

Also, if the sky is just a canvas painted by the deities, then you really could be literally nailed to the sky. An interesting spin on the spell.

[Tanuki Tales]

For 3.5 the Material Plane is like our universe as far as Elder Evils is concerned.

Atropus is a moonlet that ends up colliding with your planet and Ragnorra is a comet sized life form that ends up impacting on your planet.

[Sir_Elderberry]

I think it's usually a planet, which I think is a bit silly. As Carl Sagan will tell you, in the cosmic perspective, a planet in a universe, orbiting a star ridiculously larger than it, with more stars in the universe than is really advisable, with those stars having their own planets, makes that one planet really really tiny. In that kind of cosmology it's hard to make your Prime count for squat in an extraplanar perspective, which is a flavor choice that I don't quite like.

However, I approve of a Ptolemaic sort of geocentric model. Un-round gives me headaches trying to work out seasons and stuff, but Terry Pratchett has kind of done the work. However, round/flat is really obvious to scientists, which is why Earthicans have known it since the Ancient Greeks, and proceeded to measure how large it was at about the same time.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Close to spelljammer, where each setting is it's own planet. The prime I use, however, is none of the above. It's shaped like a doughnut, rotating around the hole once per day, with the interior that never gets light being frozen. Though I doubt that will come up in this game. I just like knowing these things with my players.

[Moff Chumley]

I'm playing my 4e campaign that the Feywild and Shadowfell are unspeakably distant continents, if you go underground too far, you end up in the Elemental Chaos, and if you go up or to the sides too far, you end up in the Astral Sea. The sun and moon are astral domains that circle the continents.

[Kelb_Panthera]

The "generic" setting is intentionally left vague so that individual DM's can decide. I would imagine that, unless it needs to be different for a plot-point, most campaigns use the planet model. Not necessarily the same cosmic model as reality, but for the world in which the characters live, it's just plain easier to assume the prime-material is basically a planet. What's beyond the sky, however, is never even vaguely hinted at in any setting except spelljammer AFAIK.

[ondonaflash]

The Sun is divinely created, the stars are not suns, but the souls of the blessed dead, shining brightly (or the souls of the damned, burning in agony, religion is funny that way). Interplanar travel is done by specially crafted ships, which sail on the ocean, but sort of segue into the astral plane which then leads to every other plane, like a boat striking an island. Its all very mind boggling.

[Noble Savant]

The traditional planet is assumed to be round, but this is never pointed out. I should point out that space in general is supposed to be part of the Prime Material Plane. If you were to somehow build a space-ship on the Prime Material, and go visit the nearest planet, you would still be on the Prime Material plane.

[Optimystik]

Oooooooo...
Aaaahhhh...

I like that...:smallwink:

Then you probably also like Lorwyn, because that's where he ripped it off from.

[Narazil]

The traditional planet is assumed to be round, but this is never pointed out. I should point out that space in general is supposed to be part of the Prime Material Plane. If you were to somehow build a space-ship on the Prime Material, and go visit the nearest planet, you would still be on the Prime Material plane.

http://www.kraproom.com/pacman/aod/gallery/d/3786-1/spelljammer.jpg

Sorry, I had to.

[dsmiles]

The traditional planet is assumed to be round, but this is never pointed out. I should point out that space in general is supposed to be part of the Prime Material Plane. If you were to somehow build a space-ship on the Prime Material, and go visit the nearest planet, you would still be on the Prime Material plane.


Yes. Spelljamming technically all takes place on the prime material. Each "solar system" (in spelljammer) is contained in it's own "crystal sphere" floating in the phlogiston...check it out here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spelljammer). As much as I hate using wiki sites, this one hits pretty close to the mark on spelljamming.

@ Narazil: I like that pic...

[Fhaolan]

Then you probably also like Lorwyn, because that's where he ripped it off from.

Actually, I've never heard of Lorwyn. What's that from?

[Nate the Snake]

Actually, I've never heard of Lorwyn. What's that from?

Magic the Gathering. It's the setting of the Lorwyn/Morningtide and Shadowmoor/Eventide expansion blocks.

[Moff Chumley]

http://www.kraproom.com/pacman/aod/gallery/d/3786-1/spelljammer.jpg

Sorry, I had to.

Silly Narazil, porn for nerds is just porn. :smallwink:

[Fhaolan]

Magic the Gathering. It's the setting of the Lorwyn/Morningtide and Shadowmoor/Eventide expansion blocks.

*checks google* Ah, I see. Nah, my campaign world isn't based on Lorwyn. It however does borrow from Welsh, Irish, and Anglo-Saxon folklore and mythology in the same way Lorwyn's designers did, so it's not surprising that there are parallels there. The mists being the doorway to the faerie realm, that dopplegangers/fetches come from a mirror realm, etc.

However, saying I 'ripped it off' is a bit rude. It reminds me of seeing a bunch of kids leaving a LotR movie saying it was a 'Total rip-off of Willow'... uh? What?