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Lappy9000
2010-01-22, 11:49 AM
I've got an upcoming game that, much to my displeasure, will have 7-8 players involved. The adventure will be level 1, and most of the players have at least a moderate understanding of the rules, with a couple sporting a more intimate knowledge of the system (It's basically D&D 3.5). That said, I have a question:

How do you personally handle games with many players?

How do you keep things running smoothly? I plan to tell everyone to work out what they're gonna do with their turn in advance, but that tends to be hit or miss. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

dsmiles
2010-01-22, 11:51 AM
Kill them off one-by-one. The characters...yeah, that's what I meant...:smalleek:

Dusk Eclipse
2010-01-22, 11:52 AM
Well what my DM does onour 4e table is to get the party to a natural splittinbg point and divide the group, though that doesn't help in most situations.... you can get a side-DM that helps you on combats, we did that once and it worked quite well.

dsmiles
2010-01-22, 11:59 AM
Seriously, though, I usually tell people that I'll only take 5 players max. I limit my groups to 5. Period.

Lappy9000
2010-01-22, 12:01 PM
Kill them off one-by-one. The characters...yeah, that's what I meant...:smalleek:Maybe. Heh.


Well what my DM does onour 4e table is to get the party to a natural splittinbg point and divide the group, though that doesn't help in most situations.... you can get a side-DM that helps you on combats, we did that once and it worked quite well.Splitting them isn't really an option unless someone else comes up to take up the DM mantle, and I've come to believe I'm the only full-time DM in the city (I had to do some schedule swapping to get this game happening once every 2 weeks as it is). I suppose I could try the co-DM, I'm not sure how well it'll go over, though.


Seriously, though, I usually tell people that I'll only take 5 players max. I limit my groups to 5. Period.The whole thing was a fault on my part.

dsmiles
2010-01-22, 12:03 PM
The whole thing was a fault on my part.

Reap what you sow, buddy, reap what you sow...:smalltongue:

EDIT: Also, have everybody keep a sheet of random die rolls. A group for each die type works best. That way, they just take the next number on the list when it's their action. No waiting for rolling...

Lappy9000
2010-01-22, 12:06 PM
Reap what you sow, buddy, reap what you sow...:smalltongue:I blame the internet >.>

Duke of URL
2010-01-22, 12:06 PM
I'd suggest just keeping the tempo going. Although I'm generally not of the type to limit how long my players can take for their next action, with a group this large you might want to put time limits on it (allowing for the occasional lookup in case of an unusual situation).

Tell the players to have good notes or page markers for their abilities and common actions, so they don't have to spend time looking things up.

valadil
2010-01-22, 12:11 PM
Most important suggestion. When you call initiative, also call out the player who is on deck. This way they have a whole turn to evaluate the board before getting called up.

If that's not enough, give each turn a time limit. In our 15 person group we used a 45 second limit. You had that much time to announce what you were doing in the turn. Rolling dice could take longer, but you were expected to have your dice grouped up and ready. When the rogue wanted to sneak attack, he'd borrow d6's after being called on deck. If players took longer than 45 seconds, they either lost their turn or were put on delay. I don't think anyone ever actually took longer than 45 seconds, except for the sorcerer who would cast a quickened spell depending on how the first one resolved.

Finally, appoint a rules lawyer. The GM should have the final call on decisions and interpretations. But if a PC can't remember what kind of save Orb of Acid does, he should ask someone else at the table. While that person may not know the text of the spell, he can at least say if it's core, Complete Mage, or Complete Arcane. There's no reason why this question should ever go to the GM if there's a competent rules lawyer at the table.

Lappy9000
2010-01-22, 12:14 PM
Good ideas. I've never tried a time limit, but I'll see if I can implement it this time. Everyone tends to have all their dice in advance (I've got more than enough to go around), and I'm trying some new strategies to make the monsters' turn(s) quicker as well (monster cards, etc.)

valadil
2010-01-22, 12:22 PM
and I'm trying some new strategies to make the monsters' turn(s) quicker as well (monster cards, etc.)

Got some more suggestions.

For monsters, I really like 4e minions. They cut out the die roll and just to flat damage. You could try that.

I try to run fewer monsters than PCs. I think the players should have more time than the GM. It limits the sort of encounters you can do but ensures the players have more time to shine.

You can also create the illusion that monsters take less time if you break up their initiative. 10 enemies who share the same initiative mean that the players have to wait while you do all of those enemies in a row. If you do 3 of them at a time, then a player goes, then 3 more enemies, you won't have that huge chunk of time where the players are sitting out. I wouldn't advice having an initiative for each enemy (too much overhead), just for each group of enemies. ie, archers, melees, healer, and their commander are grouped so you'd get 4 turns.

Also I find that index cards are better for tracking initiative than a flat list. Write each PC's name on a card. Include a card for each NPC group. Sort these according to initiative. As players spend turns push their card to the back of the stack. Where this shines over a list is players who delay or otherwise alter their initiative. You just remove them from the stack. When they want their turn you put them back in. No more crossed out names and arrows looping all over the place.

Cyrion
2010-01-22, 12:25 PM
When I work with groups that big, I rely on the party leader to present the party plans. When they're outside of combat and making their initial schemes, I have only one person present the final plan- cuts down on confusion and kind of forces them to give you an organized sequence of actions.

I usually don't have to actually keep time in combat, especially with players who have some degree of experience, but I don't hesitate to put pressure on someone who's dragging along.

dsmiles
2010-01-22, 12:27 PM
Also I find that index cards are better for tracking initiative than a flat list. Write each PC's name on a card. Include a card for each NPC group. Sort these according to initiative. As players spend turns push their card to the back of the stack. Where this shines over a list is players who delay or otherwise alter their initiative. You just remove them from the stack. When they want their turn you put them back in. No more crossed out names and arrows looping all over the place.

My battle map is actually a dry-erase board with a 1"x1" grid carved into it and blackened with marker. It also doubles as an initiative tracker/damage calculator/scratch pad, with each player having a different color marker, and the enemies all share a marker. (Color coded for everyone's convenience.)

EDIT: And all this is for a 5 player group.

Shademan
2010-01-22, 12:28 PM
you have 30 seconds to decide what youre gonna do.
three two one GO!

stopwatch and timelimits! works!
sort of

dsmiles
2010-01-22, 12:29 PM
you have 30 seconds to decide what youre gonna do.
three two one GO!

stopwatch and timelimits! works!
sort of

As far as time limits go, I use a hourglass-type, 1 minute egg timer. Again, for 5 players...

DabblerWizard
2010-01-22, 01:00 PM
Tell the players to have good notes or page markers for their abilities and common actions, so they don't have to spend time looking things up.

Going off of the above suggestion, assuming you have the books you need in hardcover, suggest to your players that they go to the local library and make copies of pages they need to remember, like for powers.

I had one player do this, and they even cut out the specific powers they needed, and glued them all onto one sheet for easy access.

dsmiles
2010-01-22, 01:05 PM
Going off of the above suggestion, assuming you have the books you need in hardcover, suggest to your players that they go to the local library and make copies of pages they need to remember, like for powers.

I had one player do this, and they even cut out the specific powers they needed, and glued them all onto one sheet for easy access.

If it's 4e, there are blank 'power cards' that somebody made as a .pdf. I'm sure you can download it somewhere.

Lappy9000
2010-01-22, 01:32 PM
If it's 4e, there are blank 'power cards' that somebody made as a .pdf. I'm sure you can download it somewhere.Nah, everybody's already got that covered. I make sure in advance that everyone understands their abilities and powers, and has it written down for reference. Thanks, though :smallcool:

Swordgleam
2010-01-22, 01:41 PM
As far as time limits go, I use a hourglass-type, 1 minute egg timer. Again, for 5 players...

I saw an absolutely fantastic idea in RPT a while back - use a chess timer. The DM and the PCs each get a set amount of time for all their turns in an encounter. If one side runs out of time before the battle is over, the other side gets a free round of actions, and then both timers get reset.

Keeps the players moving fast, keeps the DM moving fast (not that most of us need the help), and simulates the tactical penalties of standing around going, "Uh, what should I do next?" for too long during a fight.

dsmiles
2010-01-22, 01:48 PM
I saw an absolutely fantastic idea in RPT a while back - use a chess timer. The DM and the PCs each get a set amount of time for all their turns in an encounter. If one side runs out of time before the battle is over, the other side gets a free round of actions, and then both timers get reset.

Keeps the players moving fast, keeps the DM moving fast (not that most of us need the help), and simulates the tactical penalties of standing around going, "Uh, what should I do next?" for too long during a fight.

This is an excellent idea. You, Miss, deserve a cookie! Now where did I put those cookies...

maestro78
2010-01-22, 02:00 PM
Ughhh...normally I haaaaate groups that big because nothing ever gets done. I have seen it work on a regular basis, but only with a ridiculously talented DM.

The only time I've personally been in a group that big and had a good time is when my DM merged his 2 groups for one session. Turns out that the group of evil adventurers that my group had always been one step behind while chasing was actually my DM's other group! We finally caught up to them and had one gigantic, knock-down fight to the end with them that lasted most of the night.

Other than that, 4 PCs and a DM is the way to go for me.

Another_Poet
2010-01-22, 02:28 PM
A few tools:


My solution to the economy of actions when pitting large 3.5 parties vs a solo monster who is supposed to be powerful: here. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6027525)

The dice in hand rule: when your turn comes up in initiative, you already have your d20 and your damage die/dice in your hand. You roll to-hit and damage all at once, a single roll with all the dice. One roll, announce results, boom. Speeds up combat.
Corollary: if you are a caster, you have already looked up the spell you're going to cast before your turn starts
Corollary: if you don't have dice in hand or have not looked up your spell, your turn is skipped. We come back to you at the end of the round.

Enforced time limit. 2 mintues per player turn. If you have not completed your turn within 2 minutes of the DM calling your initiative order, you lose any remaining actions. If you were in the bathroom and aren't back within the 2 minutes you lose your turn.

Talk to the players. Ask them to play constructively and pass the ball (http://arsludi.lamemage.com/index.php/38/play-constructively-pass-the-ball/). This will help everyone get a share of the spotlight in a big group. If it'll help, offer bonus XP to those who successfully pass the ball at opportune times.

Talk to the players. Tell them you're going to have a hard time running for such a large group, and ask them to keep side-chat and OOC talk to a minimum. Assume all talk is IC unless the player specifies otherwise.

No tapbacks.

Lappy9000
2010-01-22, 03:29 PM
Ughhh...normally I haaaaate groups that big because nothing ever gets done. I have seen it work on a regular basis, but only with a ridiculously talented DM.IE not myself :smalleek:


The only time I've personally been in a group that big and had a good time is when my DM merged his 2 groups for one session. Turns out that the group of evil adventurers that my group had always been one step behind while chasing was actually my DM's other group! We finally caught up to them and had one gigantic, knock-down fight to the end with them that lasted most of the night.

Other than that, 4 PCs and a DM is the way to go for me.That's hysterical! Must of been a blast (or terrible, depending on how he handled it).


Very Useful AdviceThankye kindly! However, the bathroom thing would slide considering how myself and another player at the table both have the same condition :smalleek:

drengnikrafe
2010-01-22, 03:53 PM
I have a whole list of maximum players under certain circumstances. I will never, under any circumstances, ever again go over 7. Ever. That's only if I know and like all of the players, and I know they work well together. 6 is the normal maximum, and 5 is the preferred (it lets 4 people fill one role each, and one person play whatever the heck the want). There is also a strict 2 newbie limit. If we have more than 2 newbies at the table, things go to hell in a handbasket, and very quickly. Mostly because the newbies outnumber the people who can help them, by and large. And they're really quiet, usually.

The reason why is simple. Once upon a time, I figured I could DM a group of 12 people, including 4 regulars and 8 newbies. No, I'm not kidding. The only time I didn't want to kill myself was the short time during which we were split into 2 groups (I had my most experienced PC play as DM for the other half), and even then there were too many questoins (3 newbies in my group). I vowed to never do it again.

Oh, I almost forgot. I play 3.5.

Kaun
2010-01-22, 05:07 PM
I am going to add a +1 to time limits.

The way we do it is 15 seconds from when it becomes there turn to declare there actions.

if they dont declare with in 15 seconds they miss there turn.

If you had trouble implementing time limits before it was your fault.
When it comes to there turn count it, call it and move on. It is suprising how fast your players will pick it up if you take a no bs attitude with it.

Lappy9000
2010-01-22, 05:54 PM
If you had trouble implementing time limits before it was your fault. I don't very much appreciate that.

And for the record, we've never implemented them before 'cause we've never needed it.

Kaun
2010-01-22, 09:16 PM
I don't very much appreciate that.

And for the record, we've never implemented them before 'cause we've never needed it.

My apologies I miss read an earlier post and thought you had tried it before and it had not worked.

That said it dosent change the fact that if you want to implament a time limit making it work does rest completely on the shoulders of the DM.
The DM has to draw the line in the sand and stick to it because if the players can get extra time to think about there actions in combat they more then often will take it.

Secondly its not a bad idea to run a little time limit in your head for more rp encounters with npc's. Some players will have a habbit of getting into a conversation with an npc and between sentances spend minutes talking OOC about what to say next.
If your players start to do this have the npc's move the conversation along with out them and if they complaine that they were talking about it ooc and time should move along tell them it does and if they wanted to talk stratergy they should have done it befor the got into the disscusion.

The Deej
2010-01-22, 09:25 PM
The time limit isn't a bad idea, but physical timers aren't necessarily needed. In our group (6 players) we are expected to have our actions decided by the time our turn comes up. It usually takes about a minute or two just to go around the board describing actions, which is plenty of time to think of what you're going to do next.

Also, it should be expected that everyone should have all bonuses/penalties for to-hit and AC figured up, to keep things going smoothly.

If people consistently take too long to take their actions, start counting down from 5. When you hit 1, you tell them that their character does nothing this turn, and go on to the next person. That's typically enough incentive to make them decide quicker.

Lappy9000
2010-01-23, 11:55 AM
The time limit isn't a bad idea, but physical timers aren't necessarily needed. In our group (6 players) we are expected to have our actions decided by the time our turn comes up. It usually takes about a minute or two just to go around the board describing actions, which is plenty of time to think of what you're going to do next.

Also, it should be expected that everyone should have all bonuses/penalties for to-hit and AC figured up, to keep things going smoothly.

If people consistently take too long to take their actions, start counting down from 5. When you hit 1, you tell them that their character does nothing this turn, and go on to the next person. That's typically enough incentive to make them decide quicker.Considering there's no actual timer available, I think this is a good idea :smalltongue:

Matthew
2010-01-26, 05:26 PM
A "caller" was frequently used back in the day with parties heading up into double figures. basically, a leader, making many decisions and such for the party, perhaps after a short debate to keep things moving along. Protocols are a good thing to establish as well.

JohnnyCancer
2010-01-26, 05:52 PM
1. Don't do a new initiative every combat round.
2. Have the players keep notes with the book and page numbers for their abilities, spells, and favorite tactics (bull rush, trip, etc.). This is especially important for summoned creatures.
3. Encourage the players to not try to talk over each other and to pay attention when its not their turn.
4. Keep a sheet of paper with their relevent, frequently used figures (Armor class, contested skill modifiers, etc.)
5. Make stat blocks for your encounters.
6. If you're running from a module, try to anticipate how far they'll get in any one session and just worry about having that part down solid, rather than trying to have it all. If they exceed your expectation, take a break.
7. If something comes up and nobody is certain where the relevent rule is and it's taking you more than a minute or three to resolve, arbitrate a ruling with the expectation that you may have (or want) to do it totally different next time.
8. Encourage your players to have compatible backgrounds and motivations for their characters so they don't lose too much time bickering or feuding IC.
9. Have the players keep track of pertinent details and treasure, if nobody wrote it down or remembers, then their characters simply forgot/lost it for the time being.
10. Use miniatures or tokens or something similar, trying to keep such details completely in your head can get confusing.

Umael
2010-01-26, 05:54 PM
Suggestion: You might want to plan to have a few sessions be about the role-playing.

In my d20 Rokugan game, I had 7 players, and the game worked because I did so much with just the character interactions. I also started the PCs at fourth-level, with a self-made chart for what interesting things happened from first to second level, from second to third, and from third to fourth - so the PCs came with a bit of a history they had to make.

For example, one PC, Hida Ryujin, rolled up Shadowlands Taint, a minor enemy, and a minor loss of honor (his dice hated him that day). Every game session, I would pick one thing that would some how show up. So maybe the PCs met a Kuni Witch-Hunter who looked at Ryujin carefully and drilled him about making sure he was drinking his jade tea.

(There is a ritual that involves jade dissolved in tea that lets someone who has the Shadowlands Taint resist the corruption.)

Since I had little plot points for every character for every game session, it was sometime to keep everyone entertained - and it lead to possible story hooks. That Kuni Witch-Hunter could disappear and the PCs be asked to find out what happened to him. Now, depending on how the Kuni Witch-Hunter behaved, the PCs could either be eager to help and concerned, or they could be a bit unhappy but duty-bound to find out. But they knew that guy and had a vested interest, one way or the other, in what happened to him.

(Also, I strongly recommend having all PCs come with background and short list of motivators, fears, goals, etc. With 7 people in the game, you might go from "generic battle with 3 low-level rogues and 2 slightly-more powerful rogues in generic location" to "fighting off Hugh the Bandit and his Robina Hood from still the Sacred Heffner, while Huey, Dewey, & Louie took the opportunity to settle a score with PC-Nine-Fingers".)

Ernir
2010-01-26, 05:56 PM
I am currently playing in what I believe is currently a 14-player group. I'll forward this thread to the DM, he might have some advice...


Anyway, as for what I can tell you myself...
Group initiative, I recommend it.

I also think battlemaps are a bad idea for this. Updating it is going to be a pain.

Don't be afraid to throw out opponents far more powerful than you'd expect an "ordinary" group to be able to handle. Huge parties have a huge number of actions. It counts.

KurtKatze
2010-01-26, 06:12 PM
If i were you i would rather be concerned about the non-combat situations.

Keeping 8 people entertained in the roleplaying or maybe investigation situations of a game seems quite impossible to me. And when they get bored they start to chit chat kill the atmosphere etc.

Irreverent Fool
2010-01-26, 06:18 PM
For the love of all that is holy, do not allow any of the characters to have pets, minions, hirelings, or other entities controlled by the players. No matter how swift they are with the actions, with this many players it will be an ordeal to simply get through a single combat round even once you have it streamlined.

I speak from experience.

obnoxious
sig

Dust
2010-01-26, 06:27 PM
If possible, have people pre-roll their actions so that they're ready when you get to them, and each player's combat turn is as quick as possible without missing out on descriptive narrations.

Provide treasure rarely, but copious piles of it at a time.

Irreverent Fool beat me to it, but no Leadership feats or additional characters. Each player should only have one PC at a time.

I find battlemats actually work BETTER for large groups, as it gives something for players who aren't busy to study and mull over as it gets around to their turn.

Aldizog
2010-01-26, 06:31 PM
Certain types of builds and tactics slow down the game. Summons, TWF full-attacks, pets/mounts, some battlefield control effects (e.g. Black Tentacles), and stacking buffs and debuffs, to name a few. Ask your players to focus on quick-to-resolve actions and effects. Ask them to limit buffing and tell them you'll do the same. It is insanely powerful in 3E but it can really slow down the game if players are recalculating their stats on the fly. Haste is an extra attack, various modifiers, and more movement. If you are using a battlemat (which I wouldn't recommend), players really do take more time planning out 60' of movement than 30'.

THW (or S&B without bashing) is faster to resolve than TWF. Maximized spells are quicker to resolve than empowered. Save-or-dies are quicker to resolve than anything else. Having a fixed PA amount that you always use is quicker than trying to determine the optimal level.

Be flexible, of course. Some players are good at recalculating on the fly and can rapidly adjust their TWF rogue's full-attack sequence to account for seven different buffs. Others are not so good at that.

Beorn080
2010-01-26, 07:31 PM
Make sure everyone starts thinking about their next move when they finish their current move. Naturally, this will change fairly often, but for the most part it shouldn't make too much of a difference where everyone moves.

For buffs and debuffs, make sure everyone has a list or something telling them what their buffed abilities are. For you, make sure you know what their most common debuffs are and try to already calculate what the changes will be.

Lappy9000
2010-01-26, 07:35 PM
For the love of all that is holy, do not allow any of the characters to have pets, minions, hirelings, or other entities controlled by the players. No matter how swift they are with the actions, with this many players it will be an ordeal to simply get through a single combat round even once you have it streamlined.

I speak from experience.Honestly, I've always told people not to worry about it; I always throw out a cohort or two whenever they need it. Less bookwork for them and more immersion in the world. It's a win-win.

Thanks guys, gettin' some good suggestions here.


obnoxious
sigTruly.

Ashiel
2010-01-26, 08:48 PM
I've got an upcoming game that, much to my displeasure, will have 7-8 players involved. The adventure will be level 1, and most of the players have at least a moderate understanding of the rules, with a couple sporting a more intimate knowledge of the system (It's basically D&D 3.5). That said, I have a question:

How do you personally handle games with many players?

How do you keep things running smoothly? I plan to tell everyone to work out what they're gonna do with their turn in advance, but that tends to be hit or miss. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

A few tricks I would suggest for keeping things moving along:

Let everyone know that instead of rolling initiative, you'll be assuming everyone (players and NPCs alike) have an initiative of 10 + modifers. This method is often used to introduce players to D&D with the starter sets. It is also very useful for speeding up combat with more players or creatures.
This will speed up your game considerably as everyone will know how fast their characters act. Tallying initiative for a lot of players and a lot of NPCs can be time consuming in itself.

Use more low HD creatures in multiples rather than singular large enemies. This prevents the action economy from destroying stronger enemies, and reduces the chance for unexpected TPKs. A nice trick to use is figure how many enemies you want per party member, then scale up with the party (thus if you want 2:1 kobolds:party, then you simply add 2 more kobolds per party member). This way you can scale encounters up or down on the fly, depending on how many players make the game. It also makes figuring out experience points a heck of a lot easier.

If you do want large, powerful creatures, make sure they have powerful defenses. You may need to customize such creatures, but they should probably be bosses or unique opponents. Things with good armor class, high saving throws (from lots of racial HD for example), strong hit points, and Damage Reduction, Fast Healing or Regeneration, and similar abilities to help them avoid getting focus-fired down. There's some tips further down to give some ideas.

Keep things moving. If you're at a gaming table, perhaps have everyone sit in order of initiative. Go around the table like a board game asking what they are doing in any given situation. Let it be short, sweet, and to the point. When everyone gets around the table, it comes back to the first person at the table. This allows everyone a turn, and reduces the amount of confusion from multiple people trying to say what they want to do at the same time.

In role-playing encounters, have the party elect one or two people to be the party's "face". This guy will be the one who does the actual negotiating and talking (including rolling stuff like diplomacy/bluff/intimidate). Everyone else aids that guy (aid another). This is easier than rolling a million redundant skill checks. Once again, to allow everyone their turn to contribute to the verbal aspect of the role-playing (that is, the non-rolling part), begin with one person and go around the table.

Encourage teamwork and working together as a group. TEAM is the word we're looking for here. Any chance you get, allow people to aid-another each other. It's a very effective way to let everyone contribute while keeping the dice rolling simple (everyone just has to see if they roll higher than a 10). Let people split tasks (have one group search one half a room, the other group the other half) for speed. Get more done with less rolls.

Use average damage, and keep a calculator handy. To speed things up, you may want to take average on effects that require a lot of die rolling. Don't roll 10d6 for your fireballs and count it all out; take (10*3.5=)35 instead. If you have multiple NPCs who are going to cast multiples of the same spell with random durations, take the average instead (1d4+1 becomes 3 rounds). It can greatly speed up play.


Maybe some of these tips will help you out.

Designing Enemies/Encounters: If you want to build an encounter or two with tougher enemies who are bosses rather than lots of weaker enemies, here's some tips for doing this as well.

Give them extra racial hit dice. A standard beholder doesn't pose much threat against a party of 8 players of similar level. Add about 10 hit dice and you add +5 to its strong saves, +3 to its bad save, and grants +7 base attack, etc. It's CR will be increased a bit, but not a whole lot.
This will prevent the creatures from being easily 1HKO'd. However, it encourages the party to work together to either focus-fire him down, or to inflict multiple debuffs on it (for example - inflicting negative levels, using intimidate, exhaustion rays, etc) to make it more susceptible to harm.

When building custom creatures, include features like spell resistance, fast healing or regeneration, and damage reductions liberally. Tying them to the creature's hit dice is an effective method for quickly scaling them.

Example: We want to build a custom-made brutish demon. Our party is 10th level, and we don't want the demon to be a glass cannon (kill lots of the party members fast then die in one round). We want the demon to threaten the party and take them all to put it down. We decide he's an outsider so we give him 20 outsider HD (an average of 90 base Hp, +20 bab, +12 to each saving throw, 8 skills worth of 24 ranks). We decide that he's slightly resistant to magic so he has a spell resistance of 5 + HD (SR 25) requiring a 10th level wizard to roll a 15+ on their die-roll. We decide he needs some demonic damage reduction so we give him a 1/2HD DR/Good (DR 10/Good). Finally, he heals really fast, so we give him fast healing 5 + 1/2 HD (fast healing 15).

We can add some magic to him, but we want to keep his CR fairly low, so we're going to cap him at 5th level spell-like abilities. These will be something flavorful to the demon like enervation, and quicken spell-like ability (enervation!) so he can hold his action economy tightly.

For a complete stat-block, see the end of this post.

Use fairly standard enemies with lots of weaker enemies as minions. A beholder surrounded by kobolds and similar enemies can make for a challenging encounter. The beholder is the real threat, but the kobolds will aid-another to get the beholder's attack rolls and armor class higher than usual. The party can kill the kobolds but this prevents focus firing on the beholder.

Such combat strategies add extra power back into spells like fireball which are useful for clearing large amounts of weak enemies. Even if the fireball deals a little bit of damage, in this case it was actually a huge debuff for the beholder (denying him his helpers).


I hope some of this was helpful. :smallsmile:
Please enjoy this sample demon from the aforementioned example:


Random Demon
CE Large Outsider (Evil, Tanar'ri)
HD: 20d8+60 (150hp)
Initiative: +7 (17 static)
Speed: 40ft (8 squares)
Armor Class: 28 (-1 size, +15 natural, +3 dexterity), touch 12, flat footed 25
Base Attack/Grapple: +20/+36
Attack: Bite +27 (2d8+8)
Full Attack: Bite +27 (2d6+8) and 2 claws +25 (1d8+4)
Space/Reach: 10ft/10ft
Special Attacks: Improved Grapple, Power Attack, Spell-like abilities
Special Qualities: SR 25, DR 10/Good and Silver, Fast Healing 15, Darkvision 60ft, acid, cold, electricity, and fire resistance 10.
Saves: Fort +15, Ref +15, Will +15
Abilities: Str 26, Dex 16, Con 17, Wis 16, Int 10, Cha 13
Skills: Climb +32, Concentration +27, Hide +23, Move Silently +27, Intimidate +28, Jump +36, Sense Motive +27, Tumble +27
Feats: Multi-attack, Improved Grapple, Power Attack, Improved Initiative, Quicken Spell-Like Ability (Enervation), Quicken Spell-Like Ability (Wave of Fatigue)
CR: 13

Combat
Spell-like abilities: At-will - Enervation and Wave of Fatigue. 3/day - Quickened Enervation, Quickened Wave of Fatigue
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The demon's resistances were calculated using the following formula.
- SR = 5 + HD
- Resistances = 1/2 HD
- DR = 1/2 HD
- Fast Healing = 5 + 1/2 HD
- Natural Armor = 5 + 1/2 HD

The demon's combat strategy is simple. First round of combat it uses a quickened wave of fatigue vs the party, charges into combat and attempts to grapple the smallest individual. On following rounds, pops a quickened enervation targeting anyone who is casting spells, full-attacks anyone he is grappling, preferring to take a -5 on his attack rolls to add +5 damage to each attack. Each round after he will either continue grappling while popping quickened enervation or waves of fatigue (if the party summons minions, he'll fatigue them too), and continue to full attack. Should he be failing in combat he will use a total defense action and attempt to break away from combat. When his quickened spells run dry, he will continue to cast enervation as a standard action while fleeing.

SexyPlantLover
2010-01-26, 11:46 PM
I regularly DM a group of 7-10 depending on schedules. I use a battlemat and minis, a whiteboard for init and monster hp, monster stat blocks, and cards with some basic info on each char for when i plan
My recommendations include:
-make sure everyone reads/agrees upon a social contract including your houserules. limit in group fighting both IC and OOC
-no leadership. animal companions and summon monsters shouldn't be in fighting, there'll be enough combatants already
-time limits on turns are great, but i've never used a timer
-i allow tactial talking during the game so everyone is ready with their action
-if your group enjoys combat, double the hp of the monsters so everyone has a chance to attack
-go over every character sheet before the first game, math errors are common. and if something isn't written down and they don't remember immediately, it doesn't exist (this means sometimes they "forget they can fly")
-put any new players between two experienced players

finally, remember the rule of cool, and enjoy it!
(your friends/players believe you can do it)

Soranar
2010-01-27, 12:53 AM
split the group in 2 and run 2 games ?